MUScoop

Here is a poll for the Dog Days of summer. What do you think the trajectory of our program would have been if Crean stayed?

I chose Chicos would have half as many posts. 

I think plenty more NCAA tourney appearances, doubtful the threepeat of Sweet 16's though.

Depends.....if he ever decided to implement a viable press break the sky was the limit.

Well those are wide ranging options.  I think he would be a make the tourney 3-4 yrars out of 5 with little postseason success.  Thats who he is.

Quote from: River rat on August 09, 2014, 10:09:53 AM
Well those are wide ranging options.  I think he would be a make the tourney 3-4 yrars out of 5 with little postseason success.  Thats who he is.

I think you're correct here, the caveat being if he signs Zaire Wade.

I think it was time for him to leave. We are seeing a repeat at Indiana of what we witnessed at Marquette. Initial enthusiasm by fanbase and youth coaches/recruiting base followed by the realization that they can't stomach the horse's ass any longer.

No way he would have duplicated the success of Buzz.

I am starting to think coaching turnover, within reason, is a good thing for Marquette. I loved Buzz and was sorry he chose to leave, but the transition to Wojo has been so cleansing that it reminds me of the delousing scene in "The Shawshank Redemption."

The '09 team would have been really, really good.  Add the 4 awesome players with Mbakwe and Ty Taylor. That team was 12-2 in the Big East, before James went down.  They proceeded to lose to UConn (#1 seed, Final 4), Louisville (#1 seed, E8), Pitt (#1 seed, E8), Syracuse (#3 seed, S16) and Nova (#3 seed, Final 4).  Had a great chance to beat Syracuse and should have beat Nova in the BET.  That team MIGHT have had Jimmy Butler too, I know that's a stretch.  You have to have some luck in the tournament, either way.  The next season coming back you would have had Taylor, Mbakwe and Lazar.  Who knows what would have happened then.

Quote from: MUDPT on August 09, 2014, 12:24:22 PM
The '09 team would have been really, really good.  Add the 4 awesome players with Mbakwe and Ty Taylor. That team was 12-2 in the Big East, before James went down.  They proceeded to lose to UConn (#1 seed, Final 4), Louisville (#1 seed, E8), Pitt (#1 seed, E8), Syracuse (#3 seed, S16) and Nova (#3 seed, Final 4).  Had a great chance to beat Syracuse and should have beat Nova in the BET.  That team MIGHT have had Jimmy Butler too, I know that's a stretch.  You have to have some luck in the tournament, either way.  The next season coming back you would have had Taylor, Mbakwe and Lazar.  Who knows what would have happened then.

2009 would have absolutely been a championship calibre team with Taylor and Mbakwe on the roster in addition to the Amigos and Hayward.

I'll disagree with your comment on an outside chance that Butler would have been on that team. I don't think there is any way he would have wound up here--had Crean stayed we were already oversubscribed on scholarships by one. Christopherson and Mbakwe wouldn't have left and  Nick Willilams and Tyshawn Taylor wouldn't asked for their release. Not only do we not have room to add Bulter, we would have had one player depart.

In 2010 we'd have been in a much stronger position. No Butler on the roster, but with the departures of the Amigos and Buzz as the primary recruiter, there is no reason to suspect that we wouldn't have still landed DJO and Buycks for that season--especially given that Crean orginally recruited DJO out of HS. We'd still have Taylor, Mbakwe and Christopherson. 

2011 Taylor would be coming into his own, we still have DJO and Buycks, one more year for Mbakwe and Christopherson. With Buzz still doing the recruiting, landing Blue and Crowder would still be strong possiblities.

And all that is before we consider what might have happened if Crean had lured Christian Watford (from Alabama) or Victor Oladipo (Maryland) to MU. 

I'd be a Badger fan.

Re: Tyshawn Taylor... I think some of you need to look at history and what level he truly played at. You're overstating his value. IMO. Point plankn

Quote from: Jay Bee on August 09, 2014, 02:30:50 PM
Re: Tyshawn Taylor... I think some of you need to look at history and what level he truly played at. You're overstating his value. IMO. Point plankn

Maybe Jaybee, but perhaps he was out of place at Kansas and he would have had a more effective role at Marquette.

You may be right, who knows after all.

Quote from: Jay Bee on August 09, 2014, 02:30:50 PM
Re: Tyshawn Taylor... I think some of you need to look at history and what level he truly played at. You're overstating his value. IMO. Point plankn

Didn't he knock over Jason Kidd's drink last season?

Quote from: The Equalizer on August 09, 2014, 01:08:22 PM
And all that is before we consider what might have happened if Crean had lured Christian Watford (from Alabama) or Victor Oladipo (Maryland) to MU. 

We would have lost in the first weekend?

I think the outcome would have been roughly the same results-wise.  Crean and Buzz weren't much different.  Both egomaniacal, driven, high caliber recruiters.  Buzz was a much better game coach strategically, but his sub patterns undermined his strategy by limiting the player's achievements.  Crean limited his player's achievements by not having and not adjusting in-game strategy.  I cannot believe that hoops smart MU tolerated this as long as we did, and I'm amazed that hoops smart hoosiers tolerate it at all. 
Bottom line, had Crean stayed, we would have been looking for a new coach last year or this year because tanned tommy's tactics would have caught up with him, too.

I think that the last 3 years of the Crean era were indicative of his ceiling at MU.  In the tourney, first weekend exits.   2003 was the outlier in his 9 year run.   Take 2003 out of the equation and you get 2 missed tourneys, 2 NIT's, 4 tourney bids, 1 NCAA win.   He wasn't going to start magically landing bigs at MU and it is unlikely he was going to start landing consecutive good classes.    Finally, Crean can't hold Buzz's jock as a game coach.     So, IMO, if Crean had stayed at MU, he would have won 2-3 more NCAA tourney games in 6 years.

Quote from: tower912 on August 09, 2014, 08:03:07 PM
I think that the last 3 years of the Crean era were indicative of his ceiling at MU.  In the tourney, first weekend exits.   2003 was the outlier in his 9 year run.   Take 2003 out of the equation and you get 2 missed tourneys, 2 NIT's, 4 tourney bids, 1 NCAA win.   He wasn't going to start magically landing bigs at MU and it is unlikely he was going to start landing consecutive good classes.    Finally, Crean can't hold Buzz's jock as a game coach.     So, IMO, if Crean had stayed at MU, he would have won 2-3 more NCAA tourney games in 6 years.

This is absolutely correct though I would say 2-3 wins over 6 years might be generous. The man is overrated. I think we will soon hear the steady thrum of war drums along the Wabash as the I4 Faithful grow tired of persistent mediocrity. The Bronzed Beast has had his Wade-derived 15 minutes.

The fact that we couldn't build off of Wade's Final Four run was telling. There were some disappointing years between 2003 and the 3 Amigos really coming of age.

The inability of Crean to recruit a big and his reaches in the late signing period are indications of CTC's limits at MU.

Hence, Option 4.

Quote from: tower912 on August 09, 2014, 08:03:07 PM
I think that the last 3 years of the Crean era were indicative of his ceiling at MU.  In the tourney, first weekend exits.   2003 was the outlier in his 9 year run.   Take 2003 out of the equation and you get 2 missed tourneys, 2 NIT's, 4 tourney bids, 1 NCAA win.   He wasn't going to start magically landing bigs at MU and it is unlikely he was going to start landing consecutive good classes.    Finally, Crean can't hold Buzz's jock as a game coach.     So, IMO, if Crean had stayed at MU, he would have won 2-3 more NCAA tourney games in 6 years.

I think that you are spot on.  Of course, this scenario doesn't fit any of the choices given as possible poll answers as it lies solidly in the area between the third and fourth choices neither of which fit.

Quote from: keefe on August 09, 2014, 08:29:54 PM
This is absolutely correct though I would say 2-3 wins over 6 years might be generous. The man is overrated. I think we will soon hear the steady thrum of war drums along the Wabash as the I4 Faithful grow tired of persistent mediocrity. The Bronzed Beast has had his Wade-derived 15 minutes.

I hope this thread makes it to Peegs.

Look at his talented Zeller-Oladipo team: Sweet 16 is an under-achievement.

I think Crean wants IU to be a UK: top talent coming in every year just to save his job. Let the talent (a la Wade) win and cover up your shortcomings. In the end, they make you look good.

Problem will be if Crean has another dry spell like at MU. It's going to quickly nosedive (luckily II,II) and he'll further alienate the fans.

A lot of young bucks on the club: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014%E2%80%9315_Indiana_Hoosiers_men's_basketball_team

If Crean never left, the team would now have Karate suits for their warm-ups; they would all enter the floor on ATV's; and there would be a tanning booth with sign up schedule in the locker room--attendance mandatory. The Harbaughs would be delivering pre game speeches, and as always, Creans balls would be in Joanie's vice grip. And Wade would be sporting MU shorts.

Quote from: willie warrior on August 10, 2014, 07:30:00 AM
If Crean never left, the team would now have Karate suits for their warm-ups; they would all enter the floor on ATV's; and there would be a tanning booth with sign up schedule in the locker room--attendance mandatory. The Harbaughs would be delivering pre game speeches, and as always, Creans balls would be in Joanie's vice grip. And Wade would be sporting MU shorts.

This part came true regardless of Crean leaving!

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=44505.0

Quote from: tower912 on August 09, 2014, 08:03:07 PM
I think that the last 3 years of the Crean era were indicative of his ceiling at MU.  In the tourney, first weekend exits.   2003 was the outlier in his 9 year run.   Take 2003 out of the equation and you get 2 missed tourneys, 2 NIT's, 4 tourney bids, 1 NCAA win.   He wasn't going to start magically landing bigs at MU and it is unlikely he was going to start landing consecutive good classes.    Finally, Crean can't hold Buzz's jock as a game coach.     So, IMO, if Crean had stayed at MU, he would have won 2-3 more NCAA tourney games in 6 years.

Unfortunately, Buzz couldn't hold Crean's jock in terms of player development or developing a rotation. If Buzz got a transfer of a high performing player (JUCO AA or D1 like Wilson, Lockett), that player did okay, development wise.

However, Buzz had no track record to speak of devloping a player out of HS the way Crean did with Wade, Diener, or Novak. Buzz had terrible difficulty getting freshman ready to play his first year (as Crean did with Matthews, McNeal and James). For all the crap Crean gets for underusing Matthews early in his career, Matthews wouldn't even been off the bench under Buzz Williams behind a JUCO AA (Lott) and senior (Chapman). Witness how Buzz benched Burton behind Mayo and Jake Thomas. Crean never left people scracthing their heads to the extent that Buzz did benching Burton and JJJ behind Todd Mayo or Jake Thomas.

As far as his game coaching, I fail to see any signficant Buzz advantage. Buzz had more than his share of terrible coaching performance, including huge blowouts against Syracuse and UNC in the NCAA, nearly blowing a 1st round matchup against Davidson as a 3 seed, the Ohio State exercise in futility, Notre Dame (blowing the 2013 BET after wining big against them two weeks earlier), Louisville (2012 BET), the 17 point collapse against Louisille in 2011, the embarassing season-ender against Seton Hall that same year, the 25 points loss to UL (2011 BET), a 17 point collapse against Florida State in the Old Spice tournament in Orlando, and a miserable blowout loss to Dayton in Chicago.  Yes, Crean had some terrible games.  But to claim Buzz is any better is based on a personal hatred of Crean, not objective facts.

Quote from: The Equalizer on August 10, 2014, 11:19:02 AM
As far as his game coaching, I fail to see any signficant Buzz advantage. Buzz had more than his share of terrible coaching performance, including huge blowouts against Syracuse and UNC in the NCAA, nearly blowing a 1st round matchup against Davidson as a 3 seed, the Ohio State exercise in futility, Notre Dame (blowing the 2013 BET after wining big against them two weeks earlier), Louisville (2012 BET), the 17 point collapse against Louisille in 2011, the embarassing season-ender against Seton Hall that same year, the 25 points loss to UL (2011 BET), a 17 point collapse against Florida State in the Old Spice tournament in Orlando, and a miserable blowout loss to Dayton in Chicago.  Yes, Crean had some terrible games.  But to claim Buzz is any better is based on a personal hatred of Crean, not objective facts.

I don't necessarily agree with your conclusion, but seeing all of these head scratching games listed next to each other is a bit eye opening. We lost a lot of games due to some poor in game coaching by Buzz.

Quote from: The Equalizer on August 10, 2014, 11:19:02 AM
Unfortunately, Buzz couldn't hold Crean's jock in terms of player development or developing a rotation. If Buzz got a transfer of a high performing player (JUCO AA or D1 like Wilson, Lockett), that player did okay, development wise.

However, Buzz had no track record to speak of devloping a player out of HS the way Crean did with Wade, Diener, or Novak. Buzz had terrible difficulty getting freshman ready to play his first year (as Crean did with Matthews, McNeal and James). For all the crap Crean gets for underusing Matthews early in his career, Matthews wouldn't even been off the bench under Buzz Williams behind a JUCO AA (Lott) and senior (Chapman). Witness how Buzz benched Burton behind Mayo and Jake Thomas. Crean never left people scracthing their heads to the extent that Buzz did benching Burton and JJJ behind Todd Mayo or Jake Thomas.

As far as his game coaching, I fail to see any signficant Buzz advantage. Buzz had more than his share of terrible coaching performance, including huge blowouts against Syracuse and UNC in the NCAA, nearly blowing a 1st round matchup against Davidson as a 3 seed, the Ohio State exercise in futility, Notre Dame (blowing the 2013 BET after wining big against them two weeks earlier), Louisville (2012 BET), the 17 point collapse against Louisille in 2011, the embarassing season-ender against Seton Hall that same year, the 25 points loss to UL (2011 BET), a 17 point collapse against Florida State in the Old Spice tournament in Orlando, and a miserable blowout loss to Dayton in Chicago.  Yes, Crean had some terrible games.  But to claim Buzz is any better is based on a personal hatred of Crean, not objective facts.

We should've won every game when Buzz was here. Every damn one!

Quote from: The Equalizer on August 10, 2014, 11:19:02 AM
 But to claim Buzz is any better is based on a personal hatred of Crean, not objective facts.

I don't hate Crean.   Never have, never will.   I don't hate Buzz.   Never have, never will.   I thank them both for their time at my alma mater.   But if I had to hire just one of them for my basketball program, I would hire Buzz.  Other than the marketing of the program, I can't think of one category that I would rank Crean higher in.   This is based on watching them both.   

We would have lost an exhibition game to a Canadian team today.

  Yes, Crean had some terrible games.  But to claim Buzz is any better is based on a personal hatred of Crean, not objective facts.


[/quote]
I don't hate either one of them.  Someone else will have to fill in date and time, but I recall a game where MU was down 2 late and had a fast break layup and TC interrupted the fast break with a time out.  No basket off his lack of a time out play, game lost.  That was when I decided Crean was not only a horrible game coach, but he was also more likely to be looking in the mirror or posturing for a TV camera than watching the game.

Quote from: The Equalizer on August 10, 2014, 11:19:02 AM
Unfortunately, Buzz couldn't hold Crean's jock in terms of player development or developing a rotation. If Buzz got a transfer of a high performing player (JUCO AA or D1 like Wilson, Lockett), that player did okay, development wise.

However, Buzz had no track record to speak of devloping a player out of HS the way Crean did with Wade, Diener, or Novak. Buzz had terrible difficulty getting freshman ready to play his first year (as Crean did with Matthews, McNeal and James). For all the crap Crean gets for underusing Matthews early in his career, Matthews wouldn't even been off the bench under Buzz Williams behind a JUCO AA (Lott) and senior (Chapman). Witness how Buzz benched Burton behind Mayo and Jake Thomas. Crean never left people scracthing their heads to the extent that Buzz did benching Burton and JJJ behind Todd Mayo or Jake Thomas.

As far as his game coaching, I fail to see any signficant Buzz advantage. Buzz had more than his share of terrible coaching performance, including huge blowouts against Syracuse and UNC in the NCAA, nearly blowing a 1st round matchup against Davidson as a 3 seed, the Ohio State exercise in futility, Notre Dame (blowing the 2013 BET after wining big against them two weeks earlier), Louisville (2012 BET), the 17 point collapse against Louisille in 2011, the embarassing season-ender against Seton Hall that same year, the 25 points loss to UL (2011 BET), a 17 point collapse against Florida State in the Old Spice tournament in Orlando, and a miserable blowout loss to Dayton in Chicago.  Yes, Crean had some terrible games.  But to claim Buzz is any better is based on a personal hatred of Crean, not objective facts.

Holy cow this gave me a good laugh.  The absolute funniest part is saying Crean "developed" Wade.  Just like Rick Barnes developed Kevin Durant, Jim Boeheim developed Melo, the St. Vincent St. Mary's high school coach developed LeBron James, etc.  These are NBA Hall of Famers.  Sorry, but if Wade went to DePaul, Marquette, UNC, UWM, wherever, Wade was going to carry his coach (Crean, since he chose Marquette with the help of only a select few options) for however long he decided to be at the school, and then he was going to go on and be a top 5 player in his generation.  That had absolutely nothing to do with Tom Crean and absolutely everything to do with Dwyane Wade.

As far as "developing" Novak, I don't think that's true either.  Novak came in as a 6'10" deadeye sharpshooter, and left as a 6'10" deadeye sharpshooter, and has continued to be a 6'10" deadeye sharpshooter in the NBA.  Sure, those skills have gotten better since he was 17 years old, but he hasn't developed anything new to his game.  And Diener was more or less the same.  A good ball handler, a good shooter, but what really made him was he was a freaking warrior.  Crean didn't develop much for either of those guys.  In my opinion, none of those 3 guys developed their games even close to as much as Vander Blue did from his freshman year to his junior year.

And as far as bad games, shucks.  We lost ugly games to a much better UNC team in the NCAA Tournament?  A much better Florida team in the NCAA Tournament?  A game to Florida State team when we went 7 deep and were playing our 3rd game in 3 days, matching up with the complete opposite type of team, a team with a ton of size and depth?  He almost lost a game to a very underseeded, dangerous team in the NCAA Tournament, and then went on to an Elite Eight?  Let's not forget that Crean almost lost to Holy Cross with Dwyane Wade on the team.  Thank you Travis Diener for saving us there.  We lost to a much better Ohio State team early in the season last year (OSU was in the S16, we missed the NIT)?

What coach hasn't had bad games in their career?  Seriously.  You're using a couple of blowout losses to claim Buzz didn't know how to make in game adjustments.  If that's the case, Coach K, Roy, Coach Cal, Bo, Izzo, Self, etc. etc. etc. are clueless when it comes to in game adjustments.  Coach K lost to Lehigh in a first round?  He doesn't know a thing about basketball.  Jim Calhoun lost to George Mason in the NCAA Tournament?  Clueless.  Etc. Etc. Etc.  Crean had just captured MU's first conference title in years and follows it up by losing in the 1st round of the CUSA Tournament to 9 seed UAB.  With Dwyane Wade on the team.  And Travis Diener and Steve Novak.  Bad games happen.  Doesn't mean a coach can't (or can) coach.

Quote from: wadesworld on August 10, 2014, 06:17:33 PM
Holy cow this gave me a good laugh.  The absolute funniest part is saying Crean "developed" Wade.  Just like Rick Barnes developed Kevin Durant, Jim Boeheim developed Melo, the St. Vincent St. Mary's high school coach developed LeBron James, etc.  These are NBA Hall of Famers.  Sorry, but if Wade went to DePaul, Marquette, UNC, UWM, wherever, Wade was going to carry his coach (Crean, since he chose Marquette with the help of only a select few options) for however long he decided to be at the school, and then he was going to go on and be a top 5 player in his generation.  That had absolutely nothing to do with Tom Crean and absolutely everything to do with Dwyane Wade.

As far as "developing" Novak, I don't think that's true either.  Novak came in as a 6'10" deadeye sharpshooter, and left as a 6'10" deadeye sharpshooter, and has continued to be a 6'10" deadeye sharpshooter in the NBA.  Sure, those skills have gotten better since he was 17 years old, but he hasn't developed anything new to his game.  And Diener was more or less the same.  A good ball handler, a good shooter, but what really made him was he was a freaking warrior.  Crean didn't develop much for either of those guys.  In my opinion, none of those 3 guys developed their games even close to as much as Vander Blue did from his freshman year to his junior year.

And as far as bad games, shucks.  We lost ugly games to a much better UNC team in the NCAA Tournament?  A much better Florida team in the NCAA Tournament?  A game to Florida State team when we went 7 deep and were playing our 3rd game in 3 days, matching up with the complete opposite type of team, a team with a ton of size and depth?  He almost lost a game to a very underseeded, dangerous team in the NCAA Tournament, and then went on to an Elite Eight?  Let's not forget that Crean almost lost to Holy Cross with Dwyane Wade on the team.  Thank you Travis Diener for saving us there.  We lost to a much better Ohio State team early in the season last year (OSU was in the S16, we missed the NIT)?

What coach hasn't had bad games in their career?  Seriously.  You're using a couple of blowout losses to claim Buzz didn't know how to make in game adjustments.  If that's the case, Coach K, Roy, Coach Cal, Bo, Izzo, Self, etc. etc. etc. are clueless when it comes to in game adjustments.  Coach K lost to Lehigh in a first round?  He doesn't know a thing about basketball.  Jim Calhoun lost to George Mason in the NCAA Tournament?  Clueless.  Etc. Etc. Etc.  Crean had just captured MU's first conference title in years and follows it up by losing in the 1st round of the CUSA Tournament to 9 seed UAB.  With Dwyane Wade on the team.  And Travis Diener and Steve Novak.  Bad games happen.  Doesn't mean a coach can't (or can) coach.

While I agree with the majority of what you're saying about coaches having bad games etc. I do think it's fair to put the chokes against Florida State, Washington and Louisville on Buzz (certain others to) Buzz's best ability is getting his teams playing tough, watch an interview and he'll tell you how tough they are 100x.  They play head and shoulders above what you'd expect but when they over work themselves his coaching wasn't good enough to pick up the slack which is why we've had clunkers against the likes of South Florida, Depaul, Seton Hall etc on top of the occasional blow out losses. 

I do have to say though you think that the Florida team we lost to in the S16 was better than us that year? I think 8 or 9 times out of 10 we win that game in the regular season but Donovan having been there plenty before knew what to do better than Buzz. 

Quote from: Jay Bee on August 10, 2014, 05:33:04 PM
We would have lost an exhibition game to a Canadian team today.

Tanned Tommy in Ottawa: The End is Near


(https://ct.yimg.com/mr/uploads/942/1572685.jpg)

Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on August 10, 2014, 08:47:31 PM
While I agree with the majority of what you're saying about coaches having bad games etc. I do think it's fair to put the chokes against Florida State, Washington and Louisville on Buzz (certain others to) Buzz's best ability is getting his teams playing tough, watch an interview and he'll tell you how tough they are 100x.  They play head and shoulders above what you'd expect but when they over work themselves his coaching wasn't good enough to pick up the slack which is why we've had clunkers against the likes of South Florida, Depaul, Seton Hall etc on top of the occasional blow out losses.  

I do have to say though you think that the Florida team we lost to in the S16 was better than us that year? I think 8 or 9 times out of 10 we win that game in the regular season but Donovan having been there plenty before knew what to do better than Buzz.  

I'll give you Washington and Louisville (although I doubt Buzz told Buycks to challenge their shot blocker up by 2 points and the shot clock turned off with 15 seconds left in the game).  Against FSU we went 6.5 deep (our starters all saw 27 or more minutes, Acker came off the bench for 26, and then Maymon got 11 minutes, Fulce got 6, and Mbao got 1 compared to 9 of their guys seeing 16 or more minutes, Lazar, Butler, Fulce, and Maymon being our "inside" guys to their 2 7 footers) and had no bigs and were playing our 3rd game in 3 nights.  We were clearly the better team who just got gassed down the stretch and FSU was able to use their size and depth to take advantage of that.

And yes I do believe Florida was a better team than we were.  They didn't play overly well throughout the regular season, but they always had the talent.  They were much like a team you typically see from Izzo/MSU where they were just starting to put everything together at the right time (heading into March).  They had the best player on the floor, which is always a big deal come NCAA Tournament time (Bradley Beal).  They certainly had the right roster type to go deep in the tourney, with a very good back court (Beal, Boynton, and Walker with Rosario coming off the bench), a very good defensive big (Young), a stretch big (Murphy), and some young guys off the bench (Wilbekin and Prather).  They were a very, very dangerous March team.  Young for a Donovan team, but certainly talented.  Early on in the season I agree, with their youth we probably would've beaten them more often than not in non-conference, but by the end of the season they were the better, more well-rounded team in my opinion.  They had just lost by 3 to the Anthony Davis National Championship team (one of the better teams ever put together in my opinion) in the SEC Tournament and won their first 2 games by a combined 60 points (Norfolk State after beating Mizzou, and Virginia in the 7-10 matchup).

Quote from: Jay Bee on August 10, 2014, 05:33:04 PM
We would have lost an exhibition game to a Canadian team today.

Wisconsin last year, 4-1 on the same Canada trip.  One of their victories was in OT.  Before you know it, there will be someone here claiming we lost a controlled scrimmage with Virginia.  ;)

So when are we going to see the corrected Kentucky recruiting list?

Quote from: The Equalizer on August 10, 2014, 11:19:02 AM
Unfortunately, Buzz couldn't hold Crean's jock in terms of player development or developing a rotation. If Buzz got a transfer of a high performing player (JUCO AA or D1 like Wilson, Lockett), that player did okay, development wise.

However, Buzz had no track record to speak of devloping a player out of HS the way Crean did with Wade, Diener, or Novak. Buzz had terrible difficulty getting freshman ready to play his first year (as Crean did with Matthews, McNeal and James). For all the crap Crean gets for underusing Matthews early in his career, Matthews wouldn't even been off the bench under Buzz Williams behind a JUCO AA (Lott) and senior (Chapman). Witness how Buzz benched Burton behind Mayo and Jake Thomas. Crean never left people scracthing their heads to the extent that Buzz did benching Burton and JJJ behind Todd Mayo or Jake Thomas.

As far as his game coaching, I fail to see any signficant Buzz advantage. Buzz had more than his share of terrible coaching performance, including huge blowouts against Syracuse and UNC in the NCAA, nearly blowing a 1st round matchup against Davidson as a 3 seed, the Ohio State exercise in futility, Notre Dame (blowing the 2013 BET after wining big against them two weeks earlier), Louisville (2012 BET), the 17 point collapse against Louisille in 2011, the embarassing season-ender against Seton Hall that same year, the 25 points loss to UL (2011 BET), a 17 point collapse against Florida State in the Old Spice tournament in Orlando, and a miserable blowout loss to Dayton in Chicago.  Yes, Crean had some terrible games.  But to claim Buzz is any better is based on a personal hatred of Crean, not objective facts.

Does not matter both are gone. Yesterday's news.

Quote from: wadesworld on August 10, 2014, 06:17:33 PM
Holy cow this gave me a good laugh.  The absolute funniest part is saying Crean "developed" Wade.  Just like Rick Barnes developed Kevin Durant, Jim Boeheim developed Melo, the St. Vincent St. Mary's high school coach developed LeBron James, etc.  These are NBA Hall of Famers.  Sorry, but if Wade went to DePaul, Marquette, UNC, UWM, wherever, Wade was going to carry his coach (Crean, since he chose Marquette with the help of only a select few options) for however long he decided to be at the school, and then he was going to go on and be a top 5 player in his generation.  That had absolutely nothing to do with Tom Crean and absolutely everything to do with Dwyane Wade.

Take your argument up with Wade.  He says you're wrong.  

Quote from: wadesworld on August 10, 2014, 06:17:33 PM
As far as "developing" Novak, I don't think that's true either.  Novak came in as a 6'10" deadeye sharpshooter, and left as a 6'10" deadeye sharpshooter, and has continued to be a 6'10" deadeye sharpshooter in the NBA.  Sure, those skills have gotten better since he was 17 years old, but he hasn't developed anything new to his game.  And Diener was more or less the same.  A good ball handler, a good shooter, but what really made him was he was a freaking warrior.  Crean didn't develop much for either of those guys.  In my opinion, none of those 3 guys developed their games even close to as much as Vander Blue did from his freshman year to his junior year.

You're the first person I've ever encountered who thinks that Blue overachieved development-wise during his time at MU.

Quote from: wadesworld on August 10, 2014, 06:17:33 PM
A game to Florida State team when we went 7 deep and were playing our 3rd game in 3 days, matching up with the complete opposite type of team, a team with a ton of size and depth? 

1. It was the 3rd game in 4 days, not 3.  There was a day's rest before the Florida State game.  
2. Plus we had the early game 11/27, while FSU had to play an evening game, so we actualy had more time than they did to recover.  
3. We played 8 deep, FSU played 9--hardly the huge difference you suggest.
4. Matching up with a complete opposite type team didn't keep us from running up a 17 point lead. Sounds like FSU had trouble--until they made an adjusment and Buzz didn't respond.

Quote from: wadesworld on August 10, 2014, 06:17:33 PM
He almost lost a game to a very underseeded, dangerous team in the NCAA Tournament, and then went on to an Elite Eight?  Let's not forget that Crean almost lost to Holy Cross with Dwyane Wade on the team.  Thank you Travis Diener for saving us there. 

First, Davidson was hardly underseeded. They had a completely underwhelming 8-6 non-conference record, including a loss to UWM and a conference loss to Georgia Southern. They wouldn't have even made the NCAAs if they didn't win the Southern Conference tournament.

And bringing up the Holy Cross game doesn't do anything to defend the premise that Buzz is somehow a better coach.  At best, you seem to be arguing for equivalence.

Except that after the 1st round scare, Crean took MU to a Final Four, while Buzz took us to an Elite Eight.  And somehow that's evidence Buzz is a better coach.

Quote from: wadesworld on August 10, 2014, 06:17:33 PM
We lost to a much better Ohio State team early in the season last year (OSU was in the S16, we missed the NIT)?

How does does losing to a better team defend Buzz as being a superior coach?  If he BEAT a better team (like Crean did in 2006 against UConn),  that might lend credence to your argument that Buzz is a better coach.  

What you're doing is trying to bring up every bad game of Crean's and every good game of Buzz's and say "look, see what a better coach Buzz is."

All I'm doing is pointing out that Buzz has just as many coaching clunkers, hence the argument that he's somehow a much better coach flies in the face of facts.  

I believe that MU during Buzz's years was clearly more successful that they would have been under Crean.  Buzz is a much better in game coach.  I don't think Crean really understands the game of basketball anywhere near as well as Buzz.  Buzz is a better recruiter.  I don't think Crean would have been able to consistently deliver the level of talent to MU that Buzz did.  I think he knew that and that is why he left (coupled with the fact that his ego had to have the I4 job when it became available).  If Buzz has a weakness (or something he has yet to prove) its the ability to develop and improve skills particularly with young players.  As for the blow outs people are pointing to during Buzz's era every successful coach is going to have a few.  If Wojo can do everything Buzz did and do better on player development I'm certainly not going to complain if he gets blown out by a quality team on occasion.

We will never know the answer.  Wade, Diener, Novak, etc, all very complimentary of their former coach, some absolutely swearing by him.  Others, don't.

Same for Buzz and some of his former players...some swear by him, others not as much.

This thread has been done at least 20 times in various iterations over the years.  The arguments haven't changed. 

Quote from: The Equalizer on August 10, 2014, 09:42:27 PM
Take your argument up with Wade.  He says you're wrong.  

You're the first person I've ever encountered who thinks that Blue overachieved development-wise during his time at MU.

1. It was the 3rd game in 4 days, not 3.  There was a day's rest before the Florida State game.  
2. Plus we had the early game 11/27, while FSU had to play an evening game, so we actualy had more time than they did to recover.  
3. We played 8 deep, FSU played 9--hardly the huge difference you suggest.
4. Matching up with a complete opposite type team didn't keep us from running up a 17 point lead. Sounds like FSU had trouble--until they made an adjusment and Buzz didn't respond.

First, Davidson was hardly underseeded. They had a completely underwhelming 8-6 non-conference record, including a loss to UWM and a conference loss to Georgia Southern. They wouldn't have even made the NCAAs if they didn't win the Southern Conference tournament.

And bringing up the Holy Cross game doesn't do anything to defend the premise that Buzz is somehow a better coach.  At best, you seem to be arguing for equivalence.

Except that after the 1st round scare, Crean took MU to a Final Four, while Buzz took us to an Elite Eight.  And somehow that's evidence Buzz is a better coach.

How does does losing to a better team defend Buzz as being a superior coach?  If he BEAT a better team (like Crean did in 2006 against UConn),  that might lend credence to your argument that Buzz is a better coach.  

What you're doing is trying to bring up every bad game of Crean's and every good game of Buzz's and say "look, see what a better coach Buzz is."

All I'm doing is pointing out that Buzz has just as many coaching clunkers, hence the argument that he's somehow a much better coach flies in the face of facts.  

You really think that Tom Crean is to thank for Wade's "development?"  Well, okay, then.  There's not much I can say.  There is no way that Wade would have been anything but an NBA Superstar regardless of whether Tom Crean, Buzz Williams, Roy Williams, Rob Jeter, or any other college basketball coach was coaching him (obviously assuming no injuries change the course of his basketball career).

Where did I ever say Blue overachieved?  Blue developed as a player.  You disagree with that?  Blue had absolutely no offensive game his freshman year of college.  His outside, mid range, and free throw shots were all absolutely terrible his freshman.  He couldn't finish at the rim with any sort of traffic around his freshman year.  By his junior season, he had developed a very good mid range game, his free throw shot was very reliable, and he finished in traffic with ease (see: Davidson and St. John's end of game situations as examples).  If you don't think he developed from his freshman  year to his junior year then once again, I don't know what to tell you.  He developed (his game changed) much more than Novak, Diener, or Wade in college (whose games were the same from their freshman to junior/senior years...not saying they didn't get better, but they had the same skill set).

You consider 8 deep to be the top 6 in minutes over 25 minutes and then the 7th with 11 minutes and 8th with 6?  Okay.  Once again, not much more to say here.  That's 6 deep if you ask me, but hey, if you think 11 and 6 are significant minutes then sure.  Sorry I was wrong about the 3 games in 4 nights vs. 3 in 3.  That is still a lot of playing, and against high level competition.  3 games in 4 nights against Xavier, Michigan, and Florida State is a lot of high level play.  Like I said, yes, we blew a big lead.  We were also gassed.  When you play 6 guys and have 3 games in 4 nights, and you come out rolling a team and then it stops, I'm willing to give a pass and say that players were gassed.  Apparently you think it was just a lack of coaching ability.  So be it.

Davidson was very good.  They would've beaten Butler, who was also very good.  They made very few mistakes, defended very well, spread the floor, and could shoot the basketball.  Sure they had some early season struggles, and no kidding they wouldn't have made the NCAA had they lost in their conference tourney, nobody gets an at large bid out of that conference.  Doesn't mean they weren't a dangerous and underseeded team.  There is a reason they were the popular upset pick in the 1st round.


And listen, you're the one who brought up all the bad games Buzzed had in order to point out what a bad game coach he was.  I'm just countering your points and pointing to the fact that Crean, like every other coach in college basketball has had some clunkers of games.  Remember when we set a record for not scoring a single 2 point field goal against Michigan State in the 1st half of the NCAA Tournament, an 8 vs. 9 seed game?  It's not like MSU was some dominant team that year.  That was some awful coaching.  Buzz had his bad games.  Crean had his bad games.  Hard to make a case that Coach X is an awful game coach because of X game when we got blown out.  What coach hasn't been blown out?  That's my point.  Your point was "Buzz sucked because of these games, how awful."  I was just pointing out that Crean had some of those too.  Would have never brought up individual games if you hadn't.

And once again, if you think Buzz never beat a team that was better than his team, then again I don't know what to tell you.  That is simply dumb.  We went to a S16 as an 11 seed.  Crean had 1 NCAA Tourney win without Dwyane Wade in 9 years at Marquette.  Buzz doubled that number as an 11 seed in one NCAA Tournament.

I think this poll is missing the most likely scenario under Crean, which would have been fairly regular (something like 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 4 years) NCAA participant regularly eliminated the first weekend with maybe a lucky Sweet 16 in there.  Somewhere between the third and fourth options.

What Buzz never had was a loss to Winthrop, a loss to North Dakota.   He lost 4 games to non power conference teams.   Dayton in 08-09, Gonzaga in 10-11, Butler in 12/13, all neutral court games, and at UWGB in 12-13.   

Quote from: wadesworld on August 10, 2014, 09:11:34 PM
I'll give you Washington and Louisville (although I doubt Buzz told Buycks to challenge their shot blocker up by 2 points and the shot clock turned off with 15 seconds left in the game).  Against FSU we went 6.5 deep (our starters all saw 27 or more minutes, Acker came off the bench for 26, and then Maymon got 11 minutes, Fulce got 6, and Mbao got 1 compared to 9 of their guys seeing 16 or more minutes, Lazar, Butler, Fulce, and Maymon being our "inside" guys to their 2 7 footers) and had no bigs and were playing our 3rd game in 3 nights.  We were clearly the better team who just got gassed down the stretch and FSU was able to use their size and depth to take advantage of that.

And yes I do believe Florida was a better team than we were.  They didn't play overly well throughout the regular season, but they always had the talent.  They were much like a team you typically see from Izzo/MSU where they were just starting to put everything together at the right time (heading into March).  They had the best player on the floor, which is always a big deal come NCAA Tournament time (Bradley Beal).  They certainly had the right roster type to go deep in the tourney, with a very good back court (Beal, Boynton, and Walker with Rosario coming off the bench), a very good defensive big (Young), a stretch big (Murphy), and some young guys off the bench (Wilbekin and Prather).  They were a very, very dangerous March team.  Young for a Donovan team, but certainly talented.  Early on in the season I agree, with their youth we probably would've beaten them more often than not in non-conference, but by the end of the season they were the better, more well-rounded team in my opinion.  They had just lost by 3 to the Anthony Davis National Championship team (one of the better teams ever put together in my opinion) in the SEC Tournament and won their first 2 games by a combined 60 points (Norfolk State after beating Mizzou, and Virginia in the 7-10 matchup).

Even if Otule doesn't go down and Gardner isn't coming off a knee injury? I don't know man I'll give you Beal is better overall but in college I'd be hard pressed to take him over DJO.  And while I'll agree the pasting of Virginia was crazy I don't think it's much to brag about regarding the slaughtering of Norfolk state.  Norfolk had an amazing center and a lot of experience that's it so they handled a midget mizzou team.  And the loss by three to Davis' team isn't anything to write home about either as it was the third time those two teams played and a loss is still a loss, just means they played well that game. 

Quote from: tower912 on August 11, 2014, 11:41:50 AM
What Buzz never had was a loss to Winthrop, a loss to North Dakota.   He lost 4 games to non power conference teams.   Dayton in 08-09, Gonzaga in 10-11, Butler in 12/13, all neutral court games, and at UWGB in 12-13.   

Conversely, Buzz never had a win over #1 team in the country, a trip to the Final Four, a win over the ACC champion, or the SEC champion, etc.  Crean never had a few kids end up on the front pages for the wrong reasons.  Lots of things to pick on with both coaches.


As for the players that Wadesworld refers to in terms of development, we'll never know.  In my view, best to ask the players.  In many cases, it is merely the need of someone to push the hell out of them to succeed.  Some coaches can pull this off, some cannot.  That is where Novak, Wade, Oladipo, others have credited Crean for forcing them to become great.  Buzz has similar benefactors.  Whether these players would have just magically gotten to the levels they got to regardless of the coach, I'm not so sure.  Different people respond to different stimulus.   Just as we'll never know if Davidson would beat Butler as he intimated...that same Davidson team lost to 12-19 Georgia Southern, 13-18 Drexel, 6-24 UW-Milwaukee, etc.  No one knows and anyone who says they do, is just opining and guessing, nothing more.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 11, 2014, 07:15:10 PM
Conversely, Buzz never had a win over #1 team in the country, a trip to the Final Four, a win over the ACC champion, or the SEC champion, etc.  Crean never had a few kids end up on the front pages for the wrong reasons.  Lots of things to pick on with both coaches.


As for the players that Wadesworld refers to in terms of development, we'll never know.  In my view, best to ask the players.  In many cases, it is merely the need of someone to push the hell out of them to succeed.  Some coaches can pull this off, some cannot.  That is where Novak, Wade, Oladipo, others have credited Crean for forcing them to become great.  Buzz has similar benefactors.  Whether these players would have just magically gotten to the levels they got to regardless of the coach, I'm not so sure.  Different people respond to different stimulus.   Just as we'll never know if Davidson would beat Butler as he intimated...that same Davidson team lost to 12-19 Georgia Southern, 13-18 Drexel, 6-24 UW-Milwaukee, etc.  No one knows and anyone who says they do, is just opining and guessing, nothing more.

Buzz did have a win over the ACC regular season and tournament champion in the 2013 NCAA tournament win over Miami.

Crean would have been fired after 3-4 more years. 

His recruiting was very uneven year to year.  If it is true that he was convinced he couldn't recruit high level talent to Marquette, he would have run out of gas and the results on the court would have gone down hill.