So this year's trade is now complete.
Over the last three months we traded Buzz for Wojo. Let's leave that for a separate discussion. From a players perspective we lost Hill, Satchel Pierce and Shayok replacing them with Carlino, Levin and Wally Ellenson. From my perspective Wojo did an excellent job given the calendar restrictions.
First and most importantly, he got a starting point guard. One can potentially argue that Carlino might be next year's most important player. I have no desire to re-enter the Dawson vs. DeWilson discussion but the reality from last year is that among other problems our PG play wasn't good enough to allow us to reach the dance. This year's solution would have been improvement from the existing players and/or the addition of a redshirt combo guard. I'd argue that we're better off. Second, Wojo traded Pierce for Levin (and later Heldt). Neither kid is available to help this year but again I'd argue that over the long term it represents an upgrade. Lastly, he lured Wally in as a replacement for Shayok. Seems fine to me especially given the potential of luring Henry as a result.
Thoughts?
I think it has left us a little thin this coming year, unless some of the returning guys live up to their potential. But I think we are better in the long run especially if we land one of the 2 5 stars we are after.
Wally will likely ride the pines, but will be used to jump over rows of seats to fetch Wojo some popcorn on occasion. The Wally connection only works if we get his brother. Levin replacing Pierce could be an upgrade. Carlino for Hill is a wash, because Hill was a 4 year player.
The real upgrade is Wojo replacing the phony downhome lonesome cowboy.
I did not see a replacement (trade) for Med Hill. From all accounts, he looks to be a very promising player---would have loved to have kept him.....but we didn't, and we move on.
Wojo has been fantastic and I only see bigger and better things on the horizon.
Here's my thoughts on Wally. Is he worthy of scholly slot 12 or 13? In my mind absolutely yes. Heck, last year we started a guy (Jake) who had been slotted there. Wally won't be some complaining kid down the bench. Rather, he'll be a mature upperclassman providing leadership, a shot at our first national championship in track since the 1930s, and a real reason for his brother to very seriously consider MU.
Quote from: We R Final Four on July 04, 2014, 08:16:38 AM
I did not see a replacement (trade) for Med Hill. From all accounts, he looks to be a very promising player---would have loved to have kept him.....but we didn't, and we move on.
Wojo has been fantastic and I only see bigger and better things on the horizon.
Absolutely agree. But given Med's decision that he had every right to make, Wojo did the best he possibly could. I wish all our departed Frosh class well.
Quote from: jsglow on July 04, 2014, 08:20:39 AM
Here's my thoughts on Wally. Is he worth of scholly slot 12 or 13? In my mind absolutely yes. Heck, last year we started a guy (Jake) who had been slotted there. Wally won't be some complaining kid down the bench. Rather, he'll be a mature upperclassman providing leadership, a shot at our first national championship in track since the 1930s, and a real reason for his brother to very seriously consider MU.
He's also 6'6" and can jump out of the gym. I wish people wouldn't undersell him. He was hurt at Minnesota his freshman year. He was out of the mix as a sophomore.
As jsglow points out, this guy has WAY more upside than Jake Thomas.
One thing left out of your trade is what we would have lost if the trade wasn't made.
By all accounts you can add JJJ and STJ to the mix of people we gained.
Quote from: pbiflyer on July 04, 2014, 08:27:01 AM
One thing left out of your trade is what we would have lost if the trade wasn't made.
By all accounts you can add JJJ and STJ to the mix of people we gained.
+1
Great point.
Don't underestimate Wally. Wojo's rotation should be very interesting in 2015.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on July 04, 2014, 08:23:35 AM
He's also 6'6" and can jump out of the gym. I wish people wouldn't undersell him. He was hurt at Minnesota his freshman year. He was out of the mix as a sophomore.
As jsglow points out, this guy has WAY more upside than Jake Thomas.
Can't wait for Madness watching Wally and Deonte jump out of the gym. Everybody else just sit down and marvel.
Quote from: Earl Tatum on July 04, 2014, 08:31:13 AM
Don't underestimate Wally. Wojo's rotation should be very interesting in 2015.
Getting sense from this thread that you're forgetting that Wally sits out next year. So You cannot count him for next year's team.
Excellent points, We R & Flyer.
Quote from: jsglow on July 04, 2014, 08:03:12 AM
So this year's trade is now complete.
Over the last three months we traded Buzz for Wojo. Let's leave that for a separate discussion. From a players perspective we lost Hill, Satchel Pierce and Shayok replacing them with Carlino, Levin and Wally Ellenson. From my perspective Wojo did an excellent job given the calendar restrictions.
First and most importantly, he got a starting point guard. One can potentially argue that Carlino might be next year's most important player. I have no desire to re-enter the Dawson vs. DeWilson discussion but the reality from last year is that among other problems our PG play wasn't good enough to allow us to reach the dance. This year's solution would have been improvement from the existing players and/or the addition of a redshirt combo guard. I'd argue that we're better off. Second, Wojo traded Pierce for Levin (and later Heldt). Neither kid is available to help this year but again I'd argue that over the long term it represents an upgrade. Lastly, he lured Wally in as a replacement for Shayok. Seems fine to me especially given the potential of luring Henry as a result.
Thoughts?
I agree it was a huge get w/ Carlino and he probably will be the guy who most impact the kind of season the team has next year. But it's a one shot deal with him, Hill would have been a 3-4 year deal likely. You can't dismiss the long-term impact of Hill vs. short term impact of Carlino. It's all how you want to look at it comparing them. Short term favors us, long term favors Buzz.
Levin for Pierce, Levin is not going to play the role Pierce would have, that's apples and oranges. They're totally different players and different skill sets. Long term I think we got the better of that, big men are such x-factors, Levin is already a proven high level D-1 producer, and he was only a frosh. You mentioned it and it's way more accurate to compare Heldt vs. Pierce, which I think favors Heldt, he's a rising kid w/ a great big man skill set, inside & outside skills. Pierce is a low post, maybe mid-range guy, and that's likely all he'll be. Plus I look at who was recruiting Pierce, generally mid- majors, save for MU and Pitt, I think Miami (FL) offered him. Heldt was attracting more and more interest, and had he waited, almost no question, other high majors would have got involved.
Ellenson vs Shayok seems a fair comparison, and I have no idea. Like others have said, I wouldn't dimiss Ellenson at all- he's no question an elite level athlete. If those guys have the desire to be really good, and coaches who can develop that athleticism, the sky's the limit. And I'd like to think that we have the coaches, and based on Wally's comments, basketball is where he wants to excel. I think he proved that's his attitude by ditching Minnesota. There was a lot of high level interest in Shayok when he decommitted, got to think there's plenty there. This should be an interesting one to watch. I think way too early to have an opinion now, so call it a wash to slight edge to Shayok simply because you get 4 years of eligibility vs. 2 years.
Interesting topic jsglow.
Quote from: Heisenberg on July 04, 2014, 08:35:25 AM
Getting sense from this thread that you're forgetting that Wally sits out next year. So You cannot count him for next year's team.
Do you know what year it is Heisenberg? Please add meaningful comments, or don't post.
Total and complete upgrade - Buzz to Wojo. Without JJJ & STJ this season we would be lucky to finish 17-15. We are better off this year and down the road. You can't cherry pick this player or that one, you have to look at the whole package.
Quote from: jsglow on July 04, 2014, 08:20:39 AM
and a real reason for his brother to very seriously consider MU.
Couldn't disagree w/ this last statement more. You're really saying there's no way Henry would have considered MU without his brother? An in-state kid, his dad originally playing here, all of the selling points our program has (I'm not going to go through the laundry list, we all know it).
You're selling MU way, way, way (should I add one more?) short. Sounds like one of the rodent fans talking, which is basically what many of them are saying or implying.
Quote from: 94Warrior on July 04, 2014, 10:24:32 AM
Do you know what year it is Heisenberg? Please add meaningful comments, or don't post.
Total and complete upgrade - Buzz to Wojo. Without JJJ & STJ this season we would be lucky to finish 17-15. We are better off this year and down the road. You can't cherry pick this player or that one, you have to look at the whole package.
I don't think there is anyway you can fairly say that Wojo is a "total and complete upgrade." Buzz's record at MU was really, really good. Don't get me wrong, I *really* like Wojo and in retrospect I think was a much better outcome than Shaka Smart would have been, but Buzz accomplished a great deal at MU. The jury is out whether or not Wojo will be better.
Quote from: 94Warrior on July 04, 2014, 10:24:32 AM
Do you know what year it is Heisenberg? Please add meaningful comments, or don't post.
What should he have added? Wally is a redshirt for 2014-15, he can only practice. His impact at best next year will be making others better, which except for the coaches, will be impossible to quantify.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on July 04, 2014, 10:25:27 AM
Couldn't disagree w/ this last statement more. You're really saying there's no way Henry would have considered MU without his brother? An in-state kid, his dad originally playing here, all of the selling points our program has (I'm not going to go through the laundry list, we all know it).
You're selling MU way, way, way (should I add one more?) short. Sounds like one of the rodent fans talking, which is basically what many of them are saying or implying.
Wojo has made huge inroads with the Ellenson family. We were in the mix for Henry regardless of Wally.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on July 04, 2014, 10:28:07 AM
I don't think there is anyway you can fairly say that Wojo is a "total and complete upgrade." Buzz's record at MU was really, really good. Don't get me wrong, I *really* like Wojo and in retrospect I think was a much better outcome than Shaka Smart would have been, but Buzz accomplished a great deal at MU. The jury is out whether or not Wojo will be better.
I really love everything Wojo has done since he became the head coach. I'm curious why you think he was a better outcome than Shaka though? I'm not disagreeing, just want to know why you think this.
Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on July 04, 2014, 10:38:50 AM
I really love everything Wojo has done since he became the head coach. I'm curious why you think he was a better outcome than Shaka though? I'm not disagreeing, just want to know why you think this.
Because I just don't think he is as good as his reputation. I mean, I was thrilled during the #donedeal episode about Smart, and I will admit wasn't terribly happy about the Wojo rumors at first. But Wojo has done almost everything right. He kept everyone around. He managed some big recruiting wins on the transfer front. He looks to be putting together a real good class. I think he fits the Marquette culture much better than Buzz did. All that needs to be done is to show that he can win on the court.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on July 04, 2014, 10:33:15 AM
Wojo has made huge inroads with the Ellenson family. We were in the mix for Henry regardless of Wally.
Exactly, I should have added your last point to my post, Henry was already seriously considering us.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on July 04, 2014, 10:48:53 AM
Because I just don't think he is as good as his reputation. I mean, I was thrilled during the #donedeal episode about Smart, and I will admit wasn't terribly happy about the Wojo rumors at first. But Wojo has done almost everything right. He kept everyone around. He managed some big recruiting wins on the transfer front. He looks to be putting together a real good class. I think he fits the Marquette culture much better than Buzz did. All that needs to be done is to show that he can win on the court.
Agree with the whole post! We couldn't have asked for a better first couple of months out of Wojo and I will be stunned if he doesn't turn into a very good coach and keep our program nationally relevant.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on July 04, 2014, 10:48:53 AM
Because I just don't think he is as good as his reputation. I mean, I was thrilled during the #donedeal episode about Smart, and I will admit wasn't terribly happy about the Wojo rumors at first. But Wojo has done almost everything right. He kept everyone around. He managed some big recruiting wins on the transfer front. He looks to be putting together a real good class. I think he fits the Marquette culture much better than Buzz did. All that needs to be done is to show that he can win on the court.
Still would have loved to see Shaka at Marquette - he has a proven track record as a head coach that Wojo doesn't have as of yet...but I agree with all the rest of your post. I wasn't thrilled initially with the hire, but I've been very impressed with what Wojo has accomplished thus far. Think it is great he's assembled a coaching staff that has so much playing experience - that matters to recruits and families. The combined conference championships, national championships, Final Four appearances etc of Wojo, Carrawell, Nelson, Diener is quite impressive.
Shaka, however, would have been awesome too. Love the way his VCU teams play. 40 minutes of hell. Love the athleticism and constant full court pressure. I'm a little concerned about if we'll be athletic enough under Wojo. Feel this has been the achilles heal of late with Duke...why they've generally struggled in the NCAA tourney for the last 10-15 years...lack of athleticism. Recall the Big 3 giving their team fits those two seasons we played them..
Quote from: We R Final Four on July 04, 2014, 08:16:38 AM
I did not see a replacement (trade) for Med Hill. From all accounts, he looks to be a very promising player---would have loved to have kept him.....but we didn't, and we move on.
Wojo has been fantastic and I only see bigger and better things on the horizon.
Please tell me how wojo has been fantastic because I dont see it?
(My anti white boy rants has nothing to do with this statement by the way)
Quote from: ThatDude on July 04, 2014, 11:01:43 AM
Please tell me how wojo has been fantastic because I dont see it?
(My anti white boy rants has nothing to do with this statement by the way)
ThatDude - I can appreciate your viewpoints and preferences for an all black/predominately black team...I tend to share that....yet...it isn't to say a mixed team black/white can't and won't perform well.
But...to highlight Wojo's accomplishments:
No transfers - so, the guys on the team have bought into his style.
Retained Cohen and Noskowiak - Both thought to be top prospects in the state for their class year..or in the case of Nick N..top 3 after Ellenson and Stone who are top 10 nationally.
Coaching Staff - Lots of great experience there...playing at the high major level.
Carlino - Best available PG on the market...will definitely help the team.
Levin - One of the best available transfers on the market...will help balance recruiting classes.
Heldt - Considered a rising Big Man prospect - Marquette has long struggled to land a decent caliber player over 6'9"
Ellenson - Very good athlete that Big 10 school offered...didn't get much of a chance to show his skills as a sophomore...decided to transfer...and of course his brother is considered at Top 10 prospect nationally by ALL scouting services. Land Henry and he will be highest rated recruit at MU since the days of Al McGuire.
Hopefully you can look at the above body of work in roughly 100 days on the job, objectively, and say....yeah....that's pretty good.
Buzz loses another.......http://vtsports.blogs.timesdispatch.com/2014/07/04/sources-emelogu-left-tech-basketball-team/
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on July 04, 2014, 10:25:27 AM
Couldn't disagree w/ this last statement more. You're really saying there's no way Henry would have considered MU without his brother? An in-state kid, his dad originally playing here, all of the selling points our program has (I'm not going to go through the laundry list, we all know it).
You're selling MU way, way, way (should I add one more?) short. Sounds like one of the rodent fans talking, which is basically what many of them are saying or implying.
I'm not saying that at all hutch. Of course Henry might have picked MU on his own. We're an outstanding program. I'm just saying that with both Wally and his good friend Nick already here (coming), the chances he'll decide on MU just went up dramatically. I don't want to turn this into a Henry thread (and it is MY thread) but I think we're the odds on favorite for his services now. Party on Garth.
Quote from: Ners on July 04, 2014, 11:09:40 AM
ThatDude - I can appreciate your viewpoints and preferences for an all black/predominately black team...I tend to share that....yet...it isn't to say a mixed team black/white can't and won't perform well.
That had been my preference as well and I think it used to separate us from Bucky. We were looked at as the hip inner city school to Wisconsin high schoolers. It was go play for Bo and his boring system, or come join the hip and outrageous Buzz. The perception was always the predominantly black teams were more athletic and exciting. This last run Wisconsin made, had me question my preferences. I actually enjoyed watching the goofy Kaminsky and the Badgers play this year. I won't root for them, but they were a fun and exciting team to watch. I also think the older I get, the more I just want to win and at this point I could care less if we are a grinding team, or a fast break transition team. I'm kind of embarrassed and saddened that I used to have had a certain perception on players abilities/talent based on their skin color. This being said, I have trust in Wojo that he will bring in quality student athletes regardless of race and we don't have to be all traditional just because he's a Duke guy.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on July 04, 2014, 10:21:42 AM
I agree it was a huge get w/ Carlino and he probably will be the guy who most impact the kind of season the team has next year. But it's a one shot deal with him, Hill would have been a 3-4 year deal likely. You can't dismiss the long-term impact of Hill vs. short term impact of Carlino. It's all how you want to look at it comparing them. Short term favors us, long term favors Buzz.
Levin for Pierce, Levin is not going to play the role Pierce would have, that's apples and oranges. They're totally different players and different skill sets. Long term I think we got the better of that, big men are such x-factors, Levin is already a proven high level D-1 producer, and he was only a frosh. You mentioned it and it's way more accurate to compare Heldt vs. Pierce, which I think favors Heldt, he's a rising kid w/ a great big man skill set, inside & outside skills. Pierce is a low post, maybe mid-range guy, and that's likely all he'll be. Plus I look at who was recruiting Pierce, generally mid- majors, save for MU and Pitt, I think Miami (FL) offered him. Heldt was attracting more and more interest, and had he waited, almost no question, other high majors would have got involved.
Ellenson vs Shayok seems a fair comparison, and I have no idea. Like others have said, I wouldn't dimiss Ellenson at all- he's no question an elite level athlete. If those guys have the desire to be really good, and coaches who can develop that athleticism, the sky's the limit. And I'd like to think that we have the coaches, and based on Wally's comments, basketball is where he wants to excel. I think he proved that's his attitude by ditching Minnesota. There was a lot of high level interest in Shayok when he decommitted, got to think there's plenty there. This should be an interesting one to watch. I think way too early to have an opinion now, so call it a wash to slight edge to Shayok simply because you get 4 years of eligibility vs. 2 years.
Interesting topic jsglow.
Great points again hutch. Just to be clear, I wasn't trying at all to match up guy for guy directly. Of course they all play different positions or have limited (as few as one in the case of Carlino) years of eligibility remaining. But Wojo wasn't going to be able to match up perfectly. No big time '14s were left. So instead he went out and got perhaps the best one year 'rental' in the country who also happens to play our area of greatest need this year. And then the scholly opens back up and is earmarked for..... (okay, Henry). Then he replaced Pierce indirectly with Heldt having used the scholly in the meantime on a very solid Chicago transfer who will help down the road. That's all simply incredible work.
Quote from: MuMark on July 04, 2014, 11:12:11 AM
Buzz loses another.......http://vtsports.blogs.timesdispatch.com/2014/07/04/sources-emelogu-left-tech-basketball-team/
@TeamCoachBuzz
Drama distracts unless priorities prevail!
Agree that there was no replacement for Med Hill, but did anyone really think Wojo could have done a much better job than he has done with 1) no HC experience, 2) none to few assistants in place (at that time), 3) need to secure MU's players and recruits, and 4) lack of relationships with MU's recruits (committed and targeted)? Wojo took this job head on and I'm willing to be patient as he builds HIS program at MU.
RE: Wally, he is worth more to this team than it initially appears. He is a quality athlete off the bench. He may not get starter's minutes but I expect him to give his all for the sub minutes he provides.
RE: Jake, I was down on him because, despite his shooting prowess, he couldn't make a crap for himself and relied on screens. That's not the takeover guard we needed. Buzz kept him in there because 1) his insecurity with Deonte and frosh at the position and 2) he felt Jake gave the team the slightest edge to keep the game close and possibly winnable.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on July 04, 2014, 12:06:32 PM
@TeamCoachBuzz
Drama distracts unless priorities prevail!
Agree that there was no replacement for Med Hill, but did anyone really think Wojo could have done a much better job than he has done with 1) no HC experience, 2) none to few assistants in place (at that time), 3) need to secure MU's players and recruits, and 4) lack of relationships with MU's recruits (committed and targeted)? Wojo took this job head on and I'm willing to be patient as he builds HIS program at MU.
RE: Wally, he is worth more to this team than it initially appears. He is a quality athlete off the bench. He may not get starter's minutes but I expect him to give his all for the sub minutes he provides.
RE: Jake, I was down on him because, despite his shooting prowess, he couldn't make a crap for himself and relied on screens. That's not the takeover guard we needed. Buzz kept him in there because 1) his insecurity with Deonte and frosh at the position and 2) he felt Jake gave the team the slightest edge to keep the game close and possibly winnable.
I suppose the ONLY improvement is if he could have retained Med somehow. Okay, for the semester just ended Wojo earned a 3.9 GPA. That'll get you a good job or a slot in a top grad school. And not to go off topic but to embrace the culture. former players, etc. All's good.
Quote from: MuMark on July 04, 2014, 11:12:11 AM
Buzz loses another.......http://vtsports.blogs.timesdispatch.com/2014/07/04/sources-emelogu-left-tech-basketball-team/
This alone is why Wojo is an upgrade. Buzz had to many players jump ship. I enjoyed Buzz while he was here, but there comes a time for a coach to move on and at least Buzz recognized that. It is clear to me that Buzz lost last year's team and Wojo brings a whole new attitude. Having two transfers that have to sit out will make a happier team, since there is only 11 players that can play. My opinion is that Ellenson will be the type of player that comes off the bench and provides energy rebounding similar to what Fulce did. You need players like that.
Quote from: MuMark on July 04, 2014, 11:12:11 AM
Buzz loses another.......http://vtsports.blogs.timesdispatch.com/2014/07/04/sources-emelogu-left-tech-basketball-team/
So Buzz has now lost 4 players, including his two best from last year (Emelogu and Thompson). VT is going to be really bad again next year.
I get the feeling had he stayed JJJ and STj transfers would have been just the START of a mass exodus from our program. If so, the "wojo trade" has worked so far simply because Buzz was not here to watch us go to five or six returning players plus incoming recruits.
Wojo has met and exceeded my expectations so far. I still don't know what kind of game coach he is, though. If Buzz had left a year earlier, than this conversation wouldn't be happening because MU would have traded a coach coming off of S-16, S-16, E-8, Big East regular season champs for someone with no coaching experience. 13-14 (aka 17-15) changed that perception somewhat. The culture is certainly changing, but let's wait to see the product on the floor before a final decision is rendered.
All agreed. Much yet to learn especially about game planning and management. Just talking roster development at this point.
Quote from: ThatDude on July 04, 2014, 11:01:43 AM
Please tell me how wojo has been fantastic because I dont see it?
(My anti white boy rants has nothing to do with this statement by the way)
I don't think that you will ever see it.
Quote from: Heisenberg on July 04, 2014, 12:53:38 PM
So Buzz has now lost 4 players, including his two best from last year (Emelogu and Thompson). VT is going to be really bad again next year.
I get the feeling had he stayed JJJ and STj transfers would have been just the START of a mass exodus from our program. If so, the "wojo trade" has worked so far simply because Buzz was not here to watch us go to five or six returning players plus incoming recruits.
It's too easy for me to beat on Buzz (and I really want to) but coaching transitions will lead to departures.
Guys who were loyal to the previous coach will want to leave.
Players who were on the fence will stick it out as long as they can until their feelings later change.
With Louisville in the ACC now, Buzz will get his share of recruits...but it just. got. harder.
Quote from: Ners on July 04, 2014, 11:09:40 AM
ThatDude - I can appreciate your viewpoints and preferences for an all black/predominately black team...I tend to share that....yet...it isn't to say a mixed team black/white can't and won't perform well.
But...to highlight Wojo's accomplishments:
No transfers - so, the guys on the team have bought into his style.
Retained Cohen and Noskowiak - Both thought to be top prospects in the state for their class year..or in the case of Nick N..top 3 after Ellenson and Stone who are top 10 nationally.
Coaching Staff - Lots of great experience there...playing at the high major level.
Carlino - Best available PG on the market...will definitely help the team.
Levin - One of the best available transfers on the market...will help balance recruiting classes.
Heldt - Considered a rising Big Man prospect - Marquette has long struggled to land a decent caliber player over 6'9"
Ellenson - Very good athlete that Big 10 school offered...didn't get much of a chance to show his skills as a sophomore...decided to transfer...and of course his brother is considered at Top 10 prospect nationally by ALL scouting services. Land Henry and he will be highest rated recruit at MU since the days of Al McGuire.
Hopefully you can look at the above body of work in roughly 100 days on the job, objectively, and say....yeah....that's pretty good.
+100
I can respect that. Thanks
Quote from: ThatDude on July 04, 2014, 01:18:03 PM
+100
I can respect that. Thanks
Respect. I certainly can see your point of view as well and share the concern to an extent. Yet, we'll have to see how it plays out on the court over the next 2-4 years. As long as we win at a high level, I'll be pretty happy - but I really don't want to see MU become Wisconsin 2.0 - though last year's Wisconsin team was pretty fun to watch...hard as it is to say.
Be careful not to become so focused on where you're supposed to go, when you should be so focused on what you're supposed to be doing...
Quote from: Ners on July 04, 2014, 02:43:16 PM
Respect. I certainly can see your point of view as well and share the concern to an extent. Yet, we'll have to see how it plays out on the court over the next 2-4 years. As long as we win at a high level, I'll be pretty happy - but I really don't want to see MU become Wisconsin 2.0 - though last year's Wisconsin team was pretty fun to watch...hard as it is to say.
Right. Winning will cure everyone's concerns and not just mine. I dont wanna be good, but still irrelevant like Wisconsin. I wanna be great, compete for championships like the Kentuckys and UCONNS of the world.
Great thread Mr. Glow.
I would say a more fitting trade for Ahmed Hill would be any of the shooting guards Wojo is recruiting for the 2015 class. All three seem to have the same skill set as Hill and are ranked nearly as high. I know Hill's a very good player, but a lot of posters here treat him like he's irreplaceable for some reason. He's not a once in a lifetime level talent.
From the standpoint of 2014-15 roster, the trade has worked out well. We were able to keep JJJ and STjr who each had one foot out the door. We kept the rest of the team as well and added Carlino. So now we have a nice core group of 10 veterans to build on. I don't think any of the original 2014 freshman where going to contribute major minutes . So the way I look at it we have the 10 veterans getting plenty of playing time, one freshman who can develop at his own pace and our two transfers will be a big help in terms of providing practice competition during their red shirt year. On top of this add a very nice group of coaches who have played the game at a high level and I think we have a solid foundation to start the Wojo era.
We lost Hill, but it is hard to say how good he will be. Burton, Wilson and JJJ were are rated higher then he was and Burton is the only one that got significant minutes last year. JJJ was ranked in the 30"s and Hill is ranked in the 60's. I love to have him, but as a freshmen he may not of made much difference.
I think last year was an aberration; at least I hope so. Would like to see Mayo and Deonte really blossom. I hope Wojo can help Juan and Derrick improve on their weaknesses. JJJ, Steve and Dawson never were given a chance to show what they can do. I hope Duane has great season and as for Carlino and Fischer will have to way and see. It will be interesting to see what style of play Wojo has in mind for this team.
Let's not degrade Ahmed THAT much.
You and I both know that if he remained committed we would be giving Wojo a solid A/A+.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on July 04, 2014, 09:18:09 PM
Let's not degrade Ahmed THAT much.
You and I both know that if he remained committed we would be giving Wojo a solid A/A+.
The question that was posed in the thread was how MU fared in the trade. Obviously we all wish Hill stayed and your correct we would be very happy, but the way it has all worked out I think we are still ahead as explained in previous posts.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on July 04, 2014, 09:18:09 PM
Let's not degrade Ahmed THAT much.
You and I both know that if he remained committed we would be giving Wojo a solid A/A+.
I wouldn't overstate his significance either. I rather prefer having Carlino to round out the guards and rely on Wojo to bring in his own 2. Hill would have been nice but he wasn't the second coming.
Quote from: MuMark on July 04, 2014, 11:12:11 AM
Buzz loses another.......http://vtsports.blogs.timesdispatch.com/2014/07/04/sources-emelogu-left-tech-basketball-team/
The buzzards will be circling after his third 12-19 season.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on July 04, 2014, 01:17:08 PM
It's too easy for me to beat on Buzz (and I really want to) but coaching transitions will lead to departures.
Guys who were loyal to the previous coach will want to leave.
Players who were on the fence will stick it out as long as they can until their feelings later change.
It is not unusual to have a player transfer due to a coaching change, but four players is a lot to have transfer. Besides that Buzz has always had transfers.
Quote from: jsglow on July 04, 2014, 08:20:39 AM
a shot at our first national championship in track since the 1930s
Three national champions, 6 different times since Ralph Metcalfe was a 6 time national champion in the 1930's in the 100 yard and 220 yard dash. Wally wouldn't even be our first national champion in the high jump.
Keith Hanson - National Champion in 10,000 meters in 1986
John Bennett - National Champion in Long Jump in 1953 and 1954
Ken Weisner - National Champion in High Jump in 1944, 1945, 1946
Hey, we are taking too much for granted. In many other programs, with a new coach, many players who were already thinking about transferring, didn't because of Wojo (JJJ, STJ, etc.) Wojo kept our current roster intact. That in itself was a great accomplishment. He's picked up some add'l help and is making great strides in getting some great players. We'll be competitive next year, but things will blossom after that. I like what I see so far. In many other programs, things would have been a lot worse than they are. I like what Wojo has done with so little available options.
Quote from: GurneeHitchkr on July 05, 2014, 12:04:15 AM
Hey, we are taking too much for granted. In many other programs, with a new coach, many players who were already thinking about transferring, didn't because of Wojo (JJJ, STJ, etc.) Wojo kept our current roster intact. That in itself was a great accomplishment. He's picked up some add'l help and is making great strides in getting some great players. We'll be competitive next year, but things will blossom after that. I like what I see so far. In many other programs, things would have been a lot worse than they are. I like what Wojo has done with so little available options.
+1
MU lost what most thought was a bright young coach and replaced him with the unknown quantity of a promoted assistant. Zero Transfers
VT, after finishing last in the ACC the last few years, fires it's coach and "breaks the bank" with a splashy hire of a big name to turn around its program. Four Transfers including its two best returning players.
Please explain? The answer will tell you how good the Wojo trade has been.
Quote from: MU1980 on July 04, 2014, 11:38:18 PM
Three national champions, 6 different times since Ralph Metcalfe was a 6 time national champion in the 1930's in the 100 yard and 220 yard dash. Wally wouldn't even be our first national champion in the high jump.
Keith Hanson - National Champion in 10,000 meters in 1986
John Bennett - National Champion in Long Jump in 1953 and 1954
Ken Weisner - National Champion in High Jump in 1944, 1945, 1946
Cool. Thanks. I suspect few knew.
Quote from: GurneeHitchkr on July 05, 2014, 12:04:15 AM
Hey, we are taking too much for granted. In many other programs, with a new coach, many players who were already thinking about transferring, didn't because of Wojo (JJJ, STJ, etc.) Wojo kept our current roster intact. That in itself was a great accomplishment. He's picked up some add'l help and is making great strides in getting some great players. We'll be competitive next year, but things will blossom after that. I like what I see so far. In many other programs, things would have been a lot worse than they are. I like what Wojo has done with so little available options.
Gurnee
Is the hitch hiker in your avatar wearing any pants?
Quote from: Heisenberg on July 05, 2014, 05:50:16 AM
+1
MU lost what most thought was a bright young coach and replaced him with the unknown quantity of a promoted assistant. Zero Transfers
VT, after finishing last in the ACC the last few years, fires it's coach and "breaks the bank" with a splashy hire of a big name to turn around its program. Four Transfers including its two best returning players.
Please explain? The answer will tell you how good the Wojo trade has been.
Marquette...a solid program that doesn't need much more than tinkering.
VT...a bad program that needs a complete overhaul.
That's the explanation.
I repeat my point -- the Hillbilly is gone. Let it go people!
Wojo faced what any new coach faced. A fluctuating roster, departing recruits and a need to rebuild. He's midway through his first semester and I think his mid-term grade is an A+. We know the tough part of any semester is the second half, so we'll see where things go as the season draws near.
So far, things are looking VERY good!
Quote from: keefe on July 05, 2014, 11:38:59 AM
Gurnee
Is the hitch hiker in your avatar wearing any pants?
I'm not going have to change it if I say "No she isn't", am I?
(I'm a huge Roger Waters fan, and that is the cover to one of his albums)
Shine on, you crazy diamond.
Quote from: GurneeHitchkr on July 05, 2014, 10:08:51 PM
I'm not going have to change it if I say "No she isn't", am I?
(I'm a huge Roger Waters fan, and that is the cover to one of his albums)
+1
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on July 05, 2014, 02:56:22 PM
Marquette...a solid program that doesn't need much more than tinkering.
VT...a bad program that needs a complete overhaul.
That's the explanation.
Yup. MU didn't want to lose any current kids. Buzz definitely wanted some of his current VT kids to move on, and they have.
Quote from: GurneeHitchkr on July 05, 2014, 10:08:51 PM
I'm not going have to change it if I say "No she isn't", am I?
(I'm a huge Roger Waters fan, and that is the cover to one of his albums)
We could discuss the Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on July 04, 2014, 10:48:53 AM
All that needs to be done is to show that he can win on the court.
Well, there is that.
Seriously, I am thrilled with the hire thus far. And since he not only played at an elite level but studied at the feet of a master of the craft I cannot help but be optimistic for his future as our coach. From what I have heard the human dignity and decency factor has sky rocketed in the building since the other guy loaded up the truck and moved to Beverly.
Quote from: keefe on July 06, 2014, 01:57:02 AM
Well, there is that.
Seriously, I am thrilled with the hire thus far. And since he not only played at an elite level but studied at the feet of a master of the craft I cannot help but be optimistic for his future as our coach. From what I have heard the human dignity and decency factor has sky rocketed in the building since the other guy loaded up the truck and moved to Beverly.
Yup, people actually enjoy working there again. Amazing, the head coach bothers to acknowledge their presence as human beings, colleagues, etc.
Quote from: keefe on July 06, 2014, 01:57:02 AM
Well, there is that.
Seriously, I am thrilled with the hire thus far. And since he not only played at an elite level but studied at the feet of a master of the craft I cannot help but be optimistic for his future as our coach. From what I have heard the human dignity and decency factor has sky rocketed in the building since the other guy loaded up the truck and moved to Beverly.
Keefe: How dare you suggest that you have heard rumors that things may be improving at MU with the kick out of the downhome lonesome cowboy. There were about 10 or more people on this board who worshipped the ground he walked on, felt he could do no wrong, knew that what Buzz felt was best, and in him they trusted. Now that more and more comes out, those same people have suddenly stopped that worship and/or gone underground with those feelings. Those people know who they are, but you, Keefe, should be ashamed of yourself for spreading information that could be contrary to their life beliefs about the phony downhome lonesome cowboy.
Quote from: ecompt on July 04, 2014, 10:13:59 PM
The buzzards will be circling after his third 12-19 season.
Gonna be difficult for them to eat without paying a lot for a plate of that grub. The "golly, I don't even have a real agent" stuff sounds nice, but the reality is Buzz did better than most agents could dream of. He owns VT. Could get interesting.
Quote from: Jay Bee on July 06, 2014, 06:34:14 AM
Gonna be difficult for them to eat without paying a lot for a plate of that grub. The "golly, I don't even have a real agent" stuff sounds nice, but the reality is Buzz did better than most agents could dream of. He owns VT. Could get interesting.
the only thing Buzz "owns" is the lonesome cowboy shtik.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 06, 2014, 02:49:29 AM
Yup, people actually enjoy working there again. Amazing, the head coach bothers to acknowledge their presence as human beings, colleagues, etc.
Wasn't there a similar feeling when Buzz took over for Crean? Pretty sure this was the case. And pretty sure Buzz was well liked in the AD his first 3-4 years...just as Crean was? From what I've heard it deteriorated a lot once Pilarz and Williams got on board....and once the attitude is gone south...hard to get it back in a good place. Of course doesn't excuse not treating colleagues well...yet wonder how much of that becomes a function of the pressures of the job, ego building success...etc., that both Buzz and Crean experienced?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 06, 2014, 12:17:54 AM
Yup. MU didn't want to lose any current kids. Buzz definitely wanted some of his current VT kids to move on, and they have.
Including his two best players?
Quote from: Heisenberg on July 06, 2014, 08:37:45 AM
Including his two best players?
+1 No way Buzz wanted this much turnover. He's now seemingly dependent on an incoming (albeit talented) Frosh. That'll be a challenge especially given his track record.
Quote from: Jay Bee on July 06, 2014, 06:34:14 AM
Gonna be difficult for them to eat without paying a lot for a plate of that grub. The "golly, I don't even have a real agent" stuff sounds nice, but the reality is Buzz did better than most agents could dream of. He owns VT. Could get interesting.
I didn't read Bert's contract but I am confident there is a moral turpitude clause. I would hope there is also something addressing mental competence/capacity. VPU must have put a benign looking behavior dagger in the text on which Bert can be removed for, well, being Bert.
Quote from: Ners on July 06, 2014, 08:23:58 AM
Wasn't there a similar feeling when Buzz took over for Crean? Pretty sure this was the case. And pretty sure Buzz was well liked in the AD his first 3-4 years...just as Crean was? From what I've heard it deteriorated a lot once Pilarz and Williams got on board....and once the attitude is gone south...hard to get it back in a good place. Of course doesn't excuse not treating colleagues well...yet wonder how much of that becomes a function of the pressures of the job, ego building success...etc., that both Buzz and Crean experienced?
As a pilot I know a lot of divorced airline pilots. And every single one of those guys thought their bride was the greatest woman in the world at first...
Quote from: Ners on July 06, 2014, 08:23:58 AM
Wasn't there a similar feeling when Buzz took over for Crean? Pretty sure this was the case. And pretty sure Buzz was well liked in the AD his first 3-4 years...just as Crean was? From what I've heard it deteriorated a lot once Pilarz and Williams got on board....and once the attitude is gone south...hard to get it back in a good place. Of course doesn't excuse not treating colleagues well...yet wonder how much of that becomes a function of the pressures of the job, ego building success...etc., that both Buzz and Crean experienced?
Buzzard took it out on the wrong people, the day to day people. He had no need for the little guy any longer. If you weren't there to help him in some fashion, you might have well have been a leper.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 06, 2014, 12:25:00 PM
If you weren't there to help him in some fashion, you might have well have been a leper.
ipso facto
Quote from: Heisenberg on July 04, 2014, 12:53:38 PM
So Buzz has now lost 4 players, including his two best from last year (Emelogu and Thompson). VT is going to be really bad again next year.
I get the feeling had he stayed JJJ and STj transfers would have been just the START of a mass exodus from our program. If so, the "wojo trade" has worked so far simply because Buzz was not here to watch us go to five or six returning players plus incoming recruits.
+1
STJ and JJJ were only the ones we knew about. I think there may have been a few others who would have packed up and left.
Quote from: willie warrior on July 06, 2014, 06:25:59 AM
Keefe: How dare you suggest that you have heard rumors that things may be improving at MU with the kick out of the downhome lonesome cowboy. There were about 10 or more people on this board who worshipped the ground he walked on, felt he could do no wrong, knew that what Buzz felt was best, and in him they trusted. Now that more and more comes out, those same people have suddenly stopped that worship and/or gone underground with those feelings. Those people know who they are, but you, Keefe, should be ashamed of yourself for spreading information that could be contrary to their life beliefs about the phony downhome lonesome cowboy.
Hi Willie ;D
We moved on. Happily slurping Wojo. Glad to know that you will keep feeding Buzz' ego by bringing him up over and over again
My thoughts on Wojo so far:
Retaining current players: I was expecting 8/9 of to stay (with JJJ being the 1), so Wojo exceeded expectations
Retaining recruits: I had heard (perhaps incorrectly) that Wojo had relationships with 3/4 of the recruits (with Pierce being the 1) so I expected him to retain 3. So he didn't make expectations here.
Retaining future recruits: Keeping Noskowiak and Flory was just gravy
Replacing losses: When we lost 3 recruits, I did not expect Wojo to be able to find 3 quality players to replace them with. He absolutely did. He filled our biggest need with Carlino, and got some future talent with Levin and Ellenson (agree that people may be underselling him). I think we will be thin this season but 15-16 could be special.
Future Recruits: Jury is still out. I like the Heldt pick up. Skilled big men were not something we routinely found during the last regime. I like the progress he has made with the Ellenson family. If that translates out to a commit, I'll be sold.
Public Image: Wojo absolutely won the presser. He has gotten it right every time he has made an appearance. Love his vision for Marquette, seems like he has a plan, and appreciates the culture.
All in all, I'd give him an A/A- right now
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 06, 2014, 12:25:00 PM
Buzzard took it out on the wrong people, the day to day people. He had no need for the little guy any longer. If you weren't there to help him in some fashion, you might have well have been a leper.
Sounds familiar
Well written "dgies9156" I agree. Although, all the years I backed MU Basketball, I have no idea of what to
expect from this years team.
Quote from: Earl Tatum on July 06, 2014, 09:59:18 PM
Well written "dgies9156" I agree. Although, all the years I backed MU Basketball, I have no idea of what to
expect from this years team.
Expect much better than last season. I'll be shocked if we aren't an NCAA tourney team. Mayo and Burton very well can and should be 1st Team All Big East worthy. Carlino will help a lot. Duane, Dawson, JJJ all a year older, stronger, better adjusted to college game/life. Steve Taylor should have a nice year. Juan will provide good hustle/spark minutes. Luke Fischer should be a serviceable big once January rolls around.
Quote from: Ners on July 06, 2014, 10:20:47 PM
Expect much better than last season. I'll be shocked if we aren't an NCAA tourney team. Mayo and Burton very well can and should be 1st Team All Big East worthy. Carlino will help a lot. Duane, Dawson, JJJ all a year older, stronger, better adjusted to college game/life. Steve Taylor should have a nice year. Juan will provide good hustle/spark minutes. Luke Fischer should be a serviceable big once January rolls around.
I agree with you on these points and will add in that we will benefit greatly from a coach that has Basketball Common Sense. Our talent is as good ,and we are as deep, as anyone in the Big East. I am very confident that the playing time and rotations will be more appropriate this year.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on July 04, 2014, 10:48:53 AM
Because I just don't think he is as good as his reputation. I mean, I was thrilled during the #donedeal episode about Smart, and I will admit wasn't terribly happy about the Wojo rumors at first. But Wojo has done almost everything right. He kept everyone around. He managed some big recruiting wins on the transfer front. He looks to be putting together a real good class. I think he fits the Marquette culture much better than Buzz did. All that needs to be done is to show that he can win on the court.
I don't think I could have stated this any better.