Oregon kicks three suspended players off team. Interesting counter point to MU's handling of issues.
http://www.oregonlive.com/ducks/index.ssf/2014/05/damyean_dotson_dominic_artis_a.html
There is no doubt that Oregon handled the investigative part about it better than Marquette did.
fWIW...the players involved at Marquette were not here much longer after their incident either, but there was never a direct link or a public acknowledgement, in part because charges were never filed. Legally, we couldn't say "so and so is being suspended or asked to leave because of their potential involvement in a sexual assault" without opening the doors to slander/libel lawsuits. If charges had been filed (which I will blame on DPS, not the victims) we would have done exactly the same thing as Oregon has.
Quote from: ODMU238 on May 10, 2014, 08:48:28 AM
fWIW...the players involved at Marquette were not here much longer after their incident either, but there was never a direct link or a public acknowledgement, in part because charges were never filed. Legally, we couldn't say "so and so is being suspended or asked to leave because of their potential involvement in a sexual assault" without opening the doors to slander/libel lawsuits. If charges had been filed (which I will blame on DPS, not the victims) we would have done exactly the same thing as Oregon has.
+1
Maybe we would have handled it differently if charges were actually filed. But without charges can you
formally suspend or kick players off the team? How do they appeal or defend themselves when no charges are filed?
Also, public Safety handling it badly but they have seen wholesale changes in their procedures since.
Quote from: ODMU238 on May 10, 2014, 08:48:28 AM
fWIW...the players involved at Marquette were not here much longer after their incident either, but there was never a direct link or a public acknowledgement, in part because charges were never filed. Legally, we couldn't say "so and so is being suspended or asked to leave because of their potential involvement in a sexual assault" without opening the doors to slander/libel lawsuits. If charges had been filed (which I will blame on DPS, not the victims) we would have done exactly the same thing as Oregon has.
Are you sure you can say this with certainty?
Quote from: The Sultan of Slurpery on May 10, 2014, 08:58:20 AM
Are you sure you can say this with certainty?
No.
Heck that's probably libel on my part...
Quote from: The Sultan of Slurpery on May 10, 2014, 08:58:20 AM
Are you sure you can say this with certainty?
It took time to get rid of the coach who attempted to orchestrate a cover up, as well. ;)
Quote from: ODMU238 on May 10, 2014, 08:48:28 AM
fWIW...the players involved at Marquette were not here much longer after their incident either, but there was never a direct link or a public acknowledgement, in part because charges were never filed. Legally, we couldn't say "so and so is being suspended or asked to leave because of their potential involvement in a sexual assault" without opening the doors to slander/libel lawsuits. If charges had been filed (which I will blame on DPS, not the victims) we would have done exactly the same thing as Oregon has.
Did you even read the article? No charges were filed in the O case, either. But an investigation was undertaken by the appropriate external authorities, who provided their findings to the University. In the meantime, the university cooperated fully with the police and DAs office - which asked that no action be taken against the players so as not to compromise their investigation.
Once the investigation was completed the DAs office declined to file charges but the reports are public record and describe in detail the behaviors of three men which, while perhaps not criminal, are judged by the university to be severely lacking in judgment, character, and moral value. The players were suspended while the university reviewed its options then chose to remove them from further participation as members of the UO community.
Here is a quote from O President Mike Gottfredson's statement yesterday:
"The type of behavior in the police report released this week is utterly unacceptable and will not be tolerated.
I understand and empathize with the outrage people feel — as a father, I was appalled at what I read. As president of this university, I am angry and disappointed over this profoundly disturbing incident."
Read the article and you will see there is a profound difference between the professionalism exhibited by the University of Oregon and the rank amateurism of Marquette's response to violence on its campus. Not only was a similar event handled entirely differently by Marquette, which resulted in a devastating front page article in the Chicago Tribune, but Marquette continues to seem incapable of addressing attacks on its students effectively and efficiently.
The Marquette Administration wastes time, cycles, and resources on petty minutiae like Warriors, Last Tango in Paris, creating pedestrian malls, and Gold yet is painfully silent on how it intends to improve the ecosystem to safeguard its most precious asset - the Marquette students.
Quote from: keefe on May 10, 2014, 11:25:02 AM
The Marquette Administration wastes time, cycles, and resources on petty minutiae like Warriors, Last Tango in Paris, creating pedestrian malls, and Gold yet is painfully silent on how it intends to improve the ecosystem to safeguard its most precious asset - the Marquette students.
You may want to rev down the ole hyperbole machine.
Just because you haven't heard anything, that doesn't mean they are "painfully silent."
Quote from: The Sultan of Slurpery on May 10, 2014, 01:27:59 PM
You may want to rev down the ole hyperbole machine.
Just because you haven't heard anything, that doesn't mean they are "painfully silent."
Hyperbole? Hardly. A hallmark of leadership is communication to your most important constituencies.
How then would you characterize the Marquette response to the violence against its students over the past few years?
I think that Marquette has done a pretty fair job at increasing the safety for its students. From cleaning up the neighborhood around campus, to attempting to turn DPS into a police force, to tightening up how it handles sexual misconduct, the University has made strides.
Is it stellar? No. But is it "painfully silent?" Hardly.
Quote from: The Sultan of Slurpery on May 10, 2014, 01:44:13 PM
I think that Marquette has done a pretty fair job at increasing the safety for its students. From cleaning up the neighborhood around campus, to attempting to turn DPS into a police force, to tightening up how it handles sexual misconduct, the University has made strides.
Is it stellar? No. But is it "painfully silent?" Hardly.
You misunderstand. Compare how Oregon proactively and positively addressed their situation to how Marquette has managed its incidents. There is no comparison. What has Marquette done in the aftermath of a string of armed robberies and assaults other than to say they work well with the MPD? Contrast that with tangible initiatives of Oregon in a matter of significant concern to that campus community.
So how would you index Marquette's management of security issues involving its students with that of Oregon?
Quote from: keefe on May 10, 2014, 01:58:08 PM
You misunderstand. Compare how Oregon proactively and positively addressed their situation to how Marquette has managed its incidents. There is no comparison. What has Marquette done in the aftermath of a string of armed robberies and assaults other than to say they work well with the MPD? Contrast that with tangible initiatives of Oregon in a matter of significant concern to that campus community.
So how would you index Marquette's management of security issues involving its students with that of Oregon?
Keefe...you're shifting goalposts again.
Clearly Oregon handled the situation better wrt their basketball team. Does that translate to better handling as a campus of violence overall? I have no idea.
I simply said that your "painfully silent" comment was hyperbole. You said "hardly." But it was...it was an "exaggeration for the sake of emphasis." Simply put, Marquette has done things to address violence against its students. You don't think they've gone far enough.
That's fine, but don't claim you weren't using hyperbole.
Quote from: The Sultan of Slurpery on May 10, 2014, 02:07:29 PM
Keefe...you're shifting goalposts again.
Clearly Oregon handled the situation better wrt their basketball team. Does that translate to better handling as a campus of violence overall? I have no idea.
I simply said that your "painfully silent" comment was hyperbole. You said "hardly." But it was...it was an "exaggeration for the sake of emphasis." Simply put, Marquette has done things to address violence against its students. You don't think they've gone far enough.
That's fine, but don't claim you weren't using hyperbole.
Touche. Your point is well taken. But with all due respect to Daniel Defoe, one must always bear in mind that one man's hyperbole is another man's passion.
Quote from: keefe on May 10, 2014, 01:37:31 PM
Hyperbole? Hardly. A hallmark of leadership is communication to your most important constituencies.
How then would you characterize the Marquette response to the violence against its students over the past few years?
What kind of communication are you looking for? There are a lot of privacy laws that protect students from having information just thrown out there.
Quote from: The Sultan of Slurpery on May 10, 2014, 08:58:20 AM
Are you sure you can say this with certainty?
It depends on your definition of "here much longer." I can guarantee that the players involved do not currently hold degrees from Marquette.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on May 10, 2014, 04:47:12 PM
What kind of communication are you looking for? There are a lot of privacy laws that protect students from having information just thrown out there.
That's not what I mean. This has nothing to do with any individual student but what the University intends to do to enhance security. I understand there has been progress but when a student is shot there is a problem. Leaders step forward and take ownership of the issue. It seems Marquette has failed to do that in this case.
Imagine you are a parent in Chicago. First you read about the sexual assaults at Marquette in the Trib. Then you hear on the local CBS affiliate that a Marquette student was shot during an armed robbery. Two major media outlets in Marquette's prime recruiting area are painting a picture of an unsafe campus. This is a serious problem for Marquette. Their silence is stunning.
Look at how Oregon got ahead of the issue involving the basketball team. But they correctly opened up the aperture and noted that this was a campus problem - not limited to the athletic department. The University President outlined a plan for improving campus safety in every aspect of security.
Real leaders step forward, acknowledge publicly there is a problem, and state they will correct the situation immediately. Without getting into the politics, a shaken nation was reassured on December 8 by FDR while a city knew that Rudy Giuliani was in charge and intended to address a myriad of problems spawned in a single September morning. Leadership is always proactive.
Quote from: ODMU238 on May 10, 2014, 08:48:28 AM
fWIW...the players involved at Marquette were not here much longer after their incident either, but there was never a direct link or a public acknowledgement, in part because charges were never filed. Legally, we couldn't say "so and so is being suspended or asked to leave because of their potential involvement in a sexual assault" without opening the doors to slander/libel lawsuits. If charges had been filed (which I will blame on DPS, not the victims) we would have done exactly the same thing as Oregon has.
I still marvel at the folks here that insisted those involved weren't on the basketball team.
He did say "players involved" in case you missed it...
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 10, 2014, 07:56:30 PM
I still marvel at the folks here that insisted those involved weren't on the basketball team.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 10, 2014, 07:56:30 PM
I still marvel at the folks here that insisted those involved weren't on the basketball team.
My recollection is that they didn't know...not that they insisted otherwise.
Stop trying to do the Chicos thing and create arguments for the sake of creating them.
Quote from: The Sultan of Slurpery on May 10, 2014, 08:29:00 PM
My recollection is that they didn't know...not that they insisted otherwise.
Stop trying to do the Chicos thing and create arguments for the sake of creating them.
There were people here so hell bent in denial of who it was that they were insistent it could be someone else like the men's tennis team. That's not creating an argument, that is the looney toons that some people view the world and the total denial that was in play.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 10, 2014, 07:56:30 PM
I still marvel at the folks here that insisted those involved weren't on the basketball team.
So multiple folks INSISTED
that basketball players weren't involved? I don't recall people INSISTING that. I'll eagerly await the quotes from all these folks.
Quote from: keefe on May 10, 2014, 01:58:08 PM
You misunderstand. Compare how Oregon proactively and positively addressed their situation to how Marquette has managed its incidents. There is no comparison. What has Marquette done in the aftermath of a string of armed robberies and assaults other than to say they work well with the MPD? Contrast that with tangible initiatives of Oregon in a matter of significant concern to that campus community.
So how would you index Marquette's management of security issues involving its students with that of Oregon?
Of course Marquette is going to handle it differently. The Ducks are located in Eugene, where a purse snatching is a Class A felony. Three basketball players misbehaving is so rare that they can safely publicize it without fearing an admissions backlash.
Marquette, by contrast, is on the edge of a ghetto. The university spent tens of millions rehabilitating the neighborhood around it and still has not been able to wall itself off from the reality of Milwaukee. Going too public and volunteering too much will scare every upstate Wisconsin farmgirl considering Marquette for her education, not to mention about half the suburbanites in Chicago.
Publicize even underaged drinking and all of the fears about the neighborhood come out. So of course they cover it up. To do otherwise is bad for business.
Quote from: dgies9156 on May 10, 2014, 11:58:19 PM
Of course Marquette is going to handle it differently. The Ducks are located in Eugene, where a purse snatching is a Class A felony. Three basketball players misbehaving is so rare that they can safely publicize it without fearing an admissions backlash.
Marquette, by contrast, is on the edge of a ghetto. The university spent tens of millions rehabilitating the neighborhood around it and still has not been able to wall itself off from the reality of Milwaukee. Going too public and volunteering too much will scare every upstate Wisconsin farmgirl considering Marquette for her education, not to mention about half the suburbanites in Chicago.
Publicize even underaged drinking and all of the fears about the neighborhood come out. So of course they cover it up. To do otherwise is bad for business.
The problem for Marquette, however, is that the Chicago Tribune ran a front page article on sexual violence involving the Marquette basketball team and the CBS affiliate in Chicago ran a news report of the armed robberies/shooting.
Ball is in Marquette's court. I suggest they study the UO case handling and act accordingly. To say nothing is foolish if not irrational.
These discussions get on my nerves. Bravo to Oregon for taking these measures but I wish there was this much outrage every time a student is the victim of an assault.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 10, 2014, 10:09:40 PM
So multiple folks INSISTED
that basketball players weren't involved? I don't recall people INSISTING that. I'll eagerly await the quotes from all these folks.
+1. Post the links. Otherwise you are simply exaggerating...yet again.
Quote from: keefe on May 11, 2014, 12:37:30 AM
The problem for Marquette, however, is that the Chicago Tribune ran a front page article on sexual violence involving the Marquette basketball team and the CBS affiliate in Chicago ran a news report of the armed robberies/shooting.
Ball is in Marquette's court. I suggest they study the UO case handling and act accordingly. To say nothing is foolish if not irrational.
Of course saying nothing is foolish...of course that's not what Marquette did.
Quote from: The Sultan of Slurpery on May 11, 2014, 07:12:51 AM
Of course saying nothing is foolish...of course that's not what Marquette did.
Good point. I should have said Marquette has said nothing substantive or meaningful. Frankly, I know John McAdams and I respect his keen intellect. His authority on this matter should resonate with anyone concerned with how our alma mater has chosen to deal with some very serious issues. Prof. McAdam's final paragraph puts it best:
"Bureaucratic make-work, in other words, can't substitute for actual moral integrity. The latter has been sorely lacking at Marquette."
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-06-21/sports/ct-met-marquette-sex-assaults-20110621_1_sexual-assault-sexual-attack-allegation-crimes
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-11-10/news/chi-us-education-department-investigates-marquettes-response-to-sex-assault-allegations-against-athletes-20111110_1_assault-allegations-marquette-athletes-federal-investigation
http://www.mu-warrior.blogspot.com/2013/04/hypocrisy-marquette-on-sexual-assault.html
I sometimes wonder why I join the fray here.
Let's begin with this. Marquette mishandled the alleged sexual assault issue a couple years back based on a well intentioned internal policy that after careful review by both the university and the district attorney turned out to be a violation of the law. That situation and policy has now been corrected and anytime there is any allegation of sexual misconduct MPD is notified in accordance with the law. And at least one friend of mine lost his job.
Over the past 10 days, exactly 14 DPS cruisers were on the streets during the critical evening/overnight hours. I'm told that high ranking MPD officials have described the MU campus as among the safest inner city areas within Milwaukee. Perfect no. Security was so thick during move out yesterday that you could set a flat screen TV on the curb and be assured that an armed MPD or DPS officer had it in sight at all times. There were truly boots on the ground every inch around every dorm. I personally thanked 2. That cost a sh*t load of money. Moreover, MU's current policy is to maintain a massive show of force until they can get students home following exams, Senior Week, and graduation and THEN to take some time over the summer to more thoughtfully consider the issue. I know this for fact based on direct conversations 18 hours ago.
There. Anything else?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 10, 2014, 10:09:40 PM
So multiple folks INSISTED
that basketball players weren't involved? I don't recall people INSISTING that. I'll eagerly await the quotes from all these folks.
Since you're so very eager, here's one of them to refresh your failing memory:
Quote from: Pakuni on April 19, 2011, 02:54:53 PM
So, while you don't know if anybody is guilty of anything, you do know that their behavior is awful. Got it.
1. While the initial sex assault claim is troubling, we'll have to wait to see where that goes. I think we're all hoping it was an act of stupid behavior, not criminal behavior. That seems to be where the university has come down on it and, unless you believe there's been some sort of conspiracy to hide the truth, there's no reason to doubt them at this point.
2. We don't even know that the second claim involves a baskeball player. Jumping to conclusions, perhaps?
3. Vander Blue getting into a fight is dumb. It's also not atypical for young men of that age, and he's hardly the first MU hoops player - nor will he be the last - to be involved in a scrap with another student. Why his has been more publicized than some others, I don't know. But I'm not terribly troubled by it.
Chicos is correct--there were people that ran with the theme of insisting that we didn't know if basketball players were involved.
Quote from: The Equalizer on May 11, 2014, 08:31:51 AM
Chicos is correct--there were people that ran with the theme of insisting that we didn't know if basketball players were involved.
No, no....that isn't what Chicos said.
He said: "I still marvel at the folks here that insisted those involved weren't on the basketball team."
You are correct that people were insisting that *we didn't know* if they were members of the basketball team. But Chicos states that people insisted that we *knew* that they weren't.
Subtle difference, but an important one.
Quote from: The Sultan of Slurpery on May 11, 2014, 09:02:11 AM
No, no....that isn't what Chicos said.
He said: "I still marvel at the folks here that insisted those involved weren't on the basketball team."
You are correct that people were insisting that *we didn't know* if they were members of the basketball team. But Chicos states that people insisted that we *knew* that they weren't.
Subtle difference, but an important one.
Well he didn't quite say this either. *Insisted* doesn't necessarily mean *knew*. In this context, *insisted* could mean *implied*.
The bottom line is that when taken in context, at the time there were most certainly people here carrying water for Buzz by making the argument--despite all availble evidence that pointed otherwise--that it might not be basketball players involved.
Quote from: The Sultan of Slurpery on May 11, 2014, 09:02:11 AM
No, no....that isn't what Chicos said.
He said: "I still marvel at the folks here that insisted those involved weren't on the basketball team."
You are correct that people were insisting that *we didn't know* if they were members of the basketball team. But Chicos states that people insisted that we *knew* that they weren't.
Subtle difference, but an important one.
Maybe I didn't say it in a way that was clear for some of you, I'll try again. There were people here insistent that no one jump to conclusions because, you know, it could have been a non basketball player(s). ::) Apparently Buzz gets involved with alleged sexual assault victims perpetuated by the track and field team.
There were folks that couldn't wait defend hoops again and some of the actions by the administration, staff, etc....let's not forget the complete d-bags that blamed the victims....JUST WIN BABY. That's what I was talking about.
It could have been someone in the Chemistry department...we just don't know.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 11, 2014, 10:34:15 AM
Maybe I didn't say it in a way that was clear for some of you, I'll try again. There were people here insistent that no one jump to conclusions because, you know, it could have been a non basketball player(s).
Exactly...and quite a different scenario than your initial statement. And your initial statement was completely clear, and now you are backing off it.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 11, 2014, 10:34:15 AM
There were folks that couldn't wait defend hoops again and some of the actions by the administration, staff, etc....let's not forget the complete d-bags that blamed the victims....JUST WIN BABY. That's what I was talking about.
Some of my favorites..for you Lenny and Sultan.
"Whatever. Sexual harrassment among college kids? Are you kidding me? If you're not sexually harrassing somebody in college you're not trying hard enough."
-PRN
"Get over yourself. You're not the only person with a daughter. You people are all jumping to huge conclusions. Sounds to me like NOTHING HAPPENED! Please define "sexual harrassment" to me, particularly as it pertains to college relationships. It's complete nonsense and it appears that the powers that be agree with me."
-PRN
"Not sure if anyone else did this or not and I really dont feel like reading 8 pages of this to double check, but I checked the MU teams schedules from that fall to see what other teams would be in town that weekend:
Cross Country: was in New York for BigEast Championships
Men's Golf: they were in California
that leaves the remaining two as possibles and at least were in town that weekend:
Soccer: Had Senior night game @ Valley Fields and won vs. SetonHall in OT
Tennis: They were also in town that weekend, no events near Halloween..."
-GoWarriors1
Etc, etc, etc
Quote from: The Sultan of Slurpery on May 11, 2014, 10:51:12 AM
Exactly...and quite a different scenario than your initial statement. And your initial statement was completely clear, and now you are backing off it.
Don't think so at all, but to each their own.
Let me couch it another way. I'm absolutely convinced beyond any reasonable doubt that some posters here were hoping like hell it was the tennis team, soccer team, track and field, whatever....and if it was, they would say "shame" (with barely an ounce of truth to the comment) and move on, because the precious hoops players weren't involved. That's how some people think and you know that is true. Thus it allows for SOME folks to start trying to come up with all kinds of other possible scenarios, for which some folks actually BELIEVE the alternate possibilities. Hell, there are still people that believe OJ didn't do it, and that's the world we live in.
You made a clear statement: "I still marvel at the folks here that insisted those involved weren't on the basketball team."
I still don't see anyone insisting that.
You were wrong.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 11, 2014, 11:01:17 AM
Let me couch it another way. I'm absolutely convinced beyond any reasonable doubt that some posters here were hoping like hell it was the tennis team, soccer team, track and field, whatever....and if it was, they would say "shame" (with barely an ounce of truth to the comment) and move on, because the precious hoops players weren't involved. That's how some people think and you know that is true. Thus it allows for SOME folks to start trying to come up with all kinds of other possible scenarios, for which some folks actually BELIEVE the alternate possibilities. Hell, there are still people that believe OJ didn't do it, and that's the world we live in.
Keep shifting the goalposts Chicos! It's the thing you like to do best when caught talking out of your a$$.
Quote from: The Sultan of Slurpery on May 11, 2014, 11:01:50 AM
You made a clear statement: "I still marvel at the folks here that insisted those involved weren't on the basketball team."
I still don't see anyone insisting that.
You were wrong.
Weeks later, still saying it could be possibility X, possibility Y, we don't know if it is basketball members. Sorry, if "insistence" was too strong a word. Then I'm wrong.
I'll restate, hopefully this passes muster.
How about, "I still marveled that weeks after the incidents, some people trying to be so protective of Buzz and MU basketball players were grasping at any other straws and not ready to accept basketball players were at issue, even suggesting those involved could be members of a different team, or blasting the victims all in the name of not wanting anything negative to be assigned to the coach and team"