http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/07/hillary-clinton-says-us-must-rein-in-gun-culture
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/05/07/article-0-1D9E4BA400000578-937_634x422.jpg)
Quote from: keefe on May 07, 2014, 01:46:31 AM
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/07/hillary-clinton-says-us-must-rein-in-gun-culture
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/05/07/article-0-1D9E4BA400000578-937_634x422.jpg)
Pretty much agree with all she had to say. I also have no problem with gun ownership. but just as we regulate vehicles, we should have limits on let's say, assault rifles, semi-automatics, etc. Basically, guns whose only purpose is to kill as many as possible in the shortest time.
Let's compare her views to the Rand Paul-supported candidate for the US Senate in M. Carolina who believes the 2nd amendment gives everyone the right to own nuclear weapons - you know nuclear weapons don't kill people - people kill people.
And it is the people who demand these rights the hardest that are the most dangerous - just look at what went on at the Bundy ranch as militia members were drawing on each other and one group wanted to execute all member of another group because they weren't radical enough.
Quote from: keefe on May 07, 2014, 01:46:31 AM
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/07/hillary-clinton-says-us-must-rein-in-gun-culture
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/05/07/article-0-1D9E4BA400000578-937_634x422.jpg)
Benjamin Franklin, looking good after 200+ years in the grave.
Quote from: brandx on May 07, 2014, 11:49:50 AM
I also have no problem with gun ownership. but just as we regulate vehicles, we should have limits on let's say, assault rifles, semi-automatics, etc. Basically, guns whose only purpose is to kill as many as possible in the shortest time.
We agree on this. ARs and AKs are brutally ineffective sport hunting weapons.
There is a significant difference in performance and reliability between the AR and the AK but neither is designed for sport hunting. The primary difference between these two weapons is in ammunition - the AR uses the 5.56×45mm NATO round while the AK 47 uses a 7.62×39mm bullet.
The original assault weapon was the German StG 44 which was introduced during WWII. German armaments designers took feedback from the field which indicated the bolt action was too slow to operate and most targets were within 200 meters. The combat introduction of the StG 44 stunned the Red Army with the sheer volume of ammunition the weapon could throw out in a reduced amount of time. Soviet observations of tactical combat engagements matched the Wehrmacht's and the Soviets introduced a series of assault weapons that resulted in the AK 47 - which bears a striking resemblance to the StG 44.
The US was late to assault weapons and only adopted the M 16 as its standard service weapon in 1969-70. The principal argument between the two assault weapons is the AK is said to be far less accurate but its rounds are more lethal while the M 16 has greater range, is more accurate, but is far less lethal.
The reality is that the AK's 7.62×39mm round has greater penetrating strength and makes a bigger hole while the M 16's smaller round penetrates less effectively but causes far greater damage due to post-impact ballistic behaviors - the Soviet round remains intact while the NATO round tends to disintegrate, fragment, and tumble once it enters the target.
The primary method of incapacitation in combat is through catastrophic damage to the central nervous system and cardio-vascular system. The post-impact ballistics of the NATO round cause far greater damage to these known vulnerabilities so head shots are less important and even hits to the extremities can result in a combat kill.
The net effect of developing assault weapons is that it reduced range and accuracy in exchange for increased fire power - attributes that detract from their value as sporting rifles. Also, the massive trauma inflicted by an AR round tends to upset the PETA people even more.
Quote from: keefe on May 07, 2014, 12:55:12 PM
The net effect of developing assault weapons is that it reduced range and accuracy in exchange for increased fire power - attributes that detract from their value as sporting rifles. Also, the massive trauma inflicted by an AR round tends to upset the PETA people even more.
I would gladly advocate for a law requiring the banning & destruction of all assault rifles in the U.S. provided we do the same to the PETA folks.
Quote from: Benny B on May 07, 2014, 03:16:51 PM
I would gladly advocate for a law requiring the banning & destruction of all assault rifles in the U.S. provided we do the same to the PETA folks.
As an animal lover, you have my blessing in going after PETA.
Quote from: brandx on May 07, 2014, 04:29:13 PM
As an animal lover, you have my blessing in going after PETA.
Their attack on the Green Bay Packers is just one example of their idiocy:
QuotePeople for the Ethical Treatment of Animals said Monday in a letter to Harlan that the name promotes violence and bloodshed because it refers to meatpackers, or those who work in slaughterhouses.
The letter from PETA vegetarian campaign coordinator Bruce Friedrich suggests making the team the Green Bay "Pickers," referring to picking fruits, vegetables and other crops, or possibly the Green Bay "Six-Packers," referring to the state's brewing history.
"We've been the Packers since 1919, and this is the first time anyone has suggested that we change our name," Harlan said in reply. "We like our name, our tradition.
Quote from: brandx on May 07, 2014, 04:29:13 PM
As an animal lover, you have my blessing in going after PETA.
+1
Quote from: warrior07 on May 07, 2014, 11:52:58 AM
Benjamin Franklin, looking good after 200+ years in the grave.
I am a big fan of Hilary, but I just about busted my gut laughing.
Quote from: Bleuteaux on May 07, 2014, 05:02:49 PM
I am a big fan of Hilary, but I just about busted my gut laughing.
Same here. That was a good line.
If there had been guns in the Whitehouse when they left , would they have taken those too?
Quote from: Bleuteaux on May 07, 2014, 05:02:49 PM
I am a big fan of Hilary, but I just about busted my gut laughing.
Yet another reason why Scoop is the best. Wry wit and acerbic commentary to start the day.
Quote from: elephantraker on May 07, 2014, 06:16:02 PM
If there had been guns in the Whitehouse when they left , would they have taken those too?
raker
I commented on one of your other posts but not sure if you saw it. Some friends did the Lower Deschutes last weekend and said it is epic. Water level this year is perfect. They were nailing redsides on stonefly nymphs with mayfly droppers.
The quote from the Peta spokesman could be re-printed word for word in the Onion.
Quote from: warrior07 on May 07, 2014, 11:52:58 AM
Benjamin Franklin, looking good after 200+ years in the grave.
I was thinking Star Wars next movie, Jabba the Hut comes back alive.
Quote from: keefe on May 07, 2014, 06:36:03 PM
raker
I commented on one of your other posts but not sure if you saw it. Some friends did the Lower Deschutes last weekend and said it is epic. Water level this year is perfect. They were nailing redsides on stonefly nymphs with mayfly droppers.
Keefe
Sorry I missed this. Hit the stonefly and giant stone hatch last year. they were everywhere and when they landed on my hat it felt like someone popped me one. Epic place to be. Can't wait and I hope I take time to shoot a picture
Quote from: elephantraker on May 07, 2014, 09:59:09 PM
Keefe
Sorry I missed this. Hit the stonefly and giant stone hatch last year. they were everywhere and when they landed on my hat it felt like someone popped me one. Epic place to be. Can't wait and I hope I take time to shoot a picture
The Deschutes is simply one of the most beautiful rivers anywhere. Throw in the redsides and steelies and you have evidence that God does in fact exist. My wife did not fly fish but she loved hiking the Deschutes trails. I love that river.
Great thread, front to back.
Quote from: brandx on May 07, 2014, 11:49:50 AM
but just as we regulate vehicles, we should have limits on let's say, assault rifles, semi-automatics, etc. Basically, guns whose only purpose is to kill as many as possible in the shortest time.
I'm not refuting your point, and maybe I'm being nitpicky but too many people who are anti-gun misuse/don't understand the bolded term. Semi-automatic only refers to guns that do not require the shooter to cock the gun before firing another shot. 95% of hand guns are semi-automatic. Hunting rifles(appropriate for the sport anyway) tend to not be semi-auto. So by definition you would want hand guns banned/restricted which are much more likely to be used for personal protection. I'm assuming you don't have issues with pistols/hand guns but perhaps I'm wrong.
I'm not a gun nut, don't own one, though I'm qual'd in rifle and hand gun so I know my way around them. I just think using terms inappropriately weaken your argument and generally I think the "gun people" think the "anti-gun people" don't know what they are talking about and so ignore them.
Quote from: mu03eng on May 08, 2014, 08:55:42 AM
I'm not refuting your point, and maybe I'm being nitpicky but too many people who are anti-gun misuse/don't understand the bolded term. Semi-automatic only refers to guns that do not require the shooter to cock the gun before firing another shot. 95% of hand guns are semi-automatic. Hunting rifles(appropriate for the sport anyway) tend to not be semi-auto. So by definition you would want hand guns banned/restricted which are much more likely to be used for personal protection. I'm assuming you don't have issues with pistols/hand guns but perhaps I'm wrong.
I'm not a gun nut, don't own one, though I'm qual'd in rifle and hand gun so I know my way around them. I just think using terms inappropriately weaken your argument and generally I think the "gun people" think the "anti-gun people" don't know what they are talking about and so ignore them.
I'm hoping/guessing that he meant fully automatic, and not semi automatic.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 07, 2014, 09:31:39 PM
I was thinking Star Wars next movie, Jabba the Hut comes back alive.
BRUTALLY unfunny. Takes cringeworthy to the next level.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on May 08, 2014, 09:16:33 AM
I'm hoping/guessing that he meant fully automatic, and not semi automatic.
I did.
Also, interesting stuff about smart guns as well. NRA won't allow them to be sold at gun stores (not officially, but a gun store owner who said he was going to sell them as a matter of freedom, then backed down after dozens of death threats and threats to blow up his store from NRA members). That is the essence of my problem with gun nuts. As I said, I support gun ownership, but the more stringent people are about gun rights, the higher the chances are they shouldn't have guns, i.e. the near massacre between militias at the Bundy ranch.
Quote from: brandx on May 08, 2014, 12:06:14 PM
I did.
Also, interesting stuff about smart guns as well. NRA won't allow them to be sold at gun stores (not officially, but a gun store owner who said he was going to sell them as a matter of freedom, then backed down after dozens of death threats and threats to blow up his store from NRA members). That is the essence of my problem with gun nuts. As I said, I support gun ownership, but the more stringent people are about gun rights, the higher the chances are they shouldn't have guns, i.e. the near massacre between militias at the Bundy ranch.
Smith & Wesson did the same ten years ago on gun safety locks (terminologgy?) when they volunteeringly agreed to do it thinking there'd be no issue, but later when the NRA nuts went ballistic and blackballed their product they recanted.
Quote from: brandx on May 07, 2014, 11:49:50 AM
Pretty much agree with all she had to say. I also have no problem with gun ownership. but just as we regulate vehicles, we should have limits on let's say, assault rifles, semi-automatics, etc. Basically, guns whose only purpose is to kill as many as possible in the shortest time.
Let's compare her views to the Rand Paul-supported candidate for the US Senate in M. Carolina who believes the 2nd amendment gives everyone the right to own nuclear weapons - you know nuclear weapons don't kill people - people kill people.
And it is the people who demand these rights the hardest that are the most dangerous - just look at what went on at the Bundy ranch as militia members were drawing on each other and one group wanted to execute all member of another group because they weren't radical enough.
Whoa! Nuclear weapons are now available for sale to the general public? Link?
Quote from: brandx on May 08, 2014, 12:06:14 PM
Also, interesting stuff about smart guns as well. NRA won't allow them to be sold at gun stores (not officially, but a gun store owner who said he was going to sell them as a matter of freedom, then backed down after dozens of death threats and threats to blow up his store from NRA members). That is the essence of my problem with gun nuts. As I said, I support gun ownership, but the more stringent people are about gun rights, the higher the chances are they shouldn't have guns, i.e. the near massacre between militias at the Bundy ranch.
Interesting observations on the Second Amendment and gun control from noted liberals:
"Those who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it's not an individual right are courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don't like. " - Alan Dershowitz, Harvard Law School
"Strict gun laws are about as effective as strict drug laws...It pains me to say this, but the NRA seems to be right: The cities and states that have the toughest gun laws have the most murder and mayhem." - Mike Royko, Chicago Tribune
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest." - Mahatma Gandhi
Quote from: Jajuannaman on May 08, 2014, 11:27:04 AM
BRUTALLY unfunny. Takes cringeworthy to the next level.
+1
Quote from: ATWizJr on May 08, 2014, 12:18:31 PM
Whoa! Nuclear weapons are now available for sale to the general public? Link?
(http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=44063.0;attach=4982;image)
There is absolutely nothing wrong with our gun culture ... and those who say otherwise are asking to have a few 30-round clips emptied into their faces!
Quote from: keefe on May 08, 2014, 12:34:23 PM
Interesting observations on the Second Amendment and gun control from noted liberals:
"Those who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it's not an individual right are courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don't like. " - Alan Dershowitz, Harvard Law School
"Strict gun laws are about as effective as strict drug laws...It pains me to say this, but the NRA seems to be right: The cities and states that have the toughest gun laws have the most murder and mayhem." - Mike Royko, Chicago Tribune
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest." - Mahatma Gandhi
Generally agree with these statements - a couple minor quibbles.
Dershowitz has been trending conservative on many issues over the last 5-10 years, although most of the time I agree with what he says.
As far as what Royko said, it is hard to quantify that since cities that enact these laws do so because there is
already so much gun violence occurring. So I don't know that we can flat out say that the gun violence is occurring
because of the stricter laws. By the time they enact these laws, all the bad guys are already armed to the teeth.
Quote from: brandx on May 08, 2014, 02:51:15 PM
Generally agree with these statements - a couple minor quibbles.
Dershowitz has been trending conservative on many issues over the last 5-10 years, although most of the time I agree with what he says.
I would say trending libertarian.
"AK 47 uses a 7.62×39mm bullet."
An SKS also uses that round and I have found it effective when deer hunting. But I shoot within 100 yards. I would not use that rifle for longer shots.
"assault rifle" is a term that describes how a rifle looks, not how it operates mechanically. Manufacturers can bypass such bans.
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/investigations/NY-Gun-Control-Safe-Act-Assault-Weapons-Semiautomatic-AR-15-258323561.html
Quote from: warrior07 on May 08, 2014, 03:12:04 PM
I would say trending libertarian.
I think you are closer to being correct than I.
Quote from: Badgerhater on May 08, 2014, 03:19:15 PM
"assault rifle" is a term that describes how a rifle looks, not how it operates mechanically. Manufacturers can bypass such bans.
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/investigations/NY-Gun-Control-Safe-Act-Assault-Weapons-Semiautomatic-AR-15-258323561.html
Sometimes my arguments against certain guns or large magazines make me sound anti-gun. I am not. I have no problem with hunting, owning a gun for protection, collecting, range shooting, etc.
But it is not black & white. There can be reasonable limits.
I am a 25-year member of the military, a hunter and enjoy shooting sports. I have a CCW permit, but rarely, if ever, carry. I own an AR-15. I have been around guns all of my life and am a member of the NRA. I probably shoot 5-8 times a year.
I do not agree with all stances of the NRA; however, I have absolutely zero trust regarding those activists who push for gun legislation. Part of that is most people who want to ban particular guns (or all guns) are utterly ignorant about they want to ban.
Most laws pushed recently would not take a single gun out of the hands of a criminal, but either makes things more onerous for the law abiding or turns suddenly turns law-abiding people into lawbreakers. There are probably good ideas for gun regulation mixed with the vast number of ill-conceived laws that are proposed by politicians who want to show they are "concerned"; but they are lost in the heap of bad and useless proposals pushed by those who do not want anyone to have a firearm.
I don't personally care what type of guns are sold, just follow gun registration at purchase (not sure on the gun show side tho) and enforce penalties for those committing crimes with a(ny) weapon
for the record I do not own guns but have occasionally target shot for much fun up nort' with buddies
Quote from: brandx on May 08, 2014, 03:30:25 PM
Sometimes my arguments against certain guns or large magazines make me sound anti-gun. I am not. I have no problem with hunting, owning a gun for protection, collecting, range shooting, etc.
But it is not black & white. There can be reasonable limits.
We could probably hash out our mutual definition of reasonable at any one of MU's finer drinking establishments; however, reasonable in the hands of anti-gun activists means something else entirely.
Quote from: brandx on May 08, 2014, 02:51:15 PM
Generally agree with these statements - a couple minor quibbles.
Dershowitz has been trending conservative on many issues over the last 5-10 years, although most of the time I agree with what he says.
As far as what Royko said, it is hard to quantify that since cities that enact these laws do so because there is already so much gun violence occurring. So I don't know that we can flat out say that the gun violence is occurring because of the stricter laws. By the time they enact these laws, all the bad guys are already armed to the teeth.
I think that Dershowitz is becoming more Jeffersonian in his thinking but he is hardly ever going to become an NRA member. I also agree with your thought that the reason high crime jurisdictions have gun control is because they have high crime in to begin with. (Reference the Alf Landon/
Literary Digest example of statistical sample.)
But I do believe that there is a very high correlation between gun ownership and deterrence.
At the end of the day, Jefferson merely articulated the thinking of virtually every single Founding Father - an armed citizenry is the surest deterrent to political despotism. Even the patron saint of non-violent resistance noted that the British prohibition on Indians owning arms was for one reason: It enabled 100,000 Brits to rule over 350,000,000 Indians. Authorizing the private possession of weapons has been a cornerstone of democratic political philosophy for centuries. Preventing it has been a control mechanism of authoritarianism and political repression for longer.
"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there! "- George Orwell
"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence. From the hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences, and tendencies prove that to ensure peace, security, and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington, in a speech to Congress, January 7,1790
"One of the ordinary modes, by which tyrants accomplish their purposes without resistance, is, by disarming the people, and making it an offence to keep arms, and by substituting a regular army in the stead of a resort to the militia. The friends of a free government cannot be too watchful, to overcome the dangerous tendency of the public mind to sacrifice, for the sake of mere private convenience, this powerful check upon the designs of ambitious men.." - Joseph Story,
Familiar Exposition of the Constitution of the United States "The people of the various provinces are strictly forbidden to have in their possession any swords, short swords, bows, spears, firearms, or other types of arms. The possession of unnecessary implements makes difficult the collection of taxes and dues and tends to foment uprisings." - Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Shogun of Japan
"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to permit the conquered Eastern peoples to have arms. History teaches that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so. " - Adolf Hitler
Tischegesprache Im Fuhrerhauptquartier
Quote from: brandx on May 08, 2014, 03:30:25 PM
Sometimes my arguments against large magazines make me sound anti-ESPN.
x
What do you have against the World Wide Leader?
Quote from: Badgerhater on May 08, 2014, 03:45:07 PM
We could probably hash out our mutual definition of reasonable at any one of MU's finer drinking establishments; however, reasonable in the hands of anti-gun activists means something else entirely.
Yeah, I think most people on both sides are fairly reasonable. It's the 10% at each end that preclude getting anything done. And they are the ones making the decisions. Both of those sides are absolute in what they want, so we get nothing of substance.
Quote from: Badgerhater on May 08, 2014, 03:16:22 PM
"AK 47 uses a 7.62×39mm bullet."
An SKS also uses that round and I have found it effective when deer hunting. But I shoot within 100 yards. I would not use that rifle for longer shots.
Well, you could try to shoot at down range targets but those deer will live to see another day.
I am guessing you own a PLA Type 56?
Quote from: Jajuannaman on May 08, 2014, 11:27:04 AM
BRUTALLY unfunny. Takes cringeworthy to the next level.
I suppose I could have called her Hitler or some of the other wonderful things the left typically does about pols they don't like.....you know, BRUTALLY unfunny and cringeworthy.
But, nah
Quote from: warrior07 on May 08, 2014, 03:12:04 PM
I would say trending libertarian.
He's getting smarter with age....wisdom also taking it up a notch
Quote from: MU82 on May 08, 2014, 02:09:13 PM
There is absolutely nothing wrong with our gun culture ... and those who say otherwise are asking to have a few 30-round clips emptied into their faces!
Very strange argument. So those that say there is nothing wrong with our abortion culture....do they deserve to be aborted themselves?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 08, 2014, 07:42:31 PM
Very strange argument. So those that say there is nothing wrong with our abortion culture....do they deserve to be aborted themselves?
I know you didn't go to med school but it's a little late for that.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 08, 2014, 07:42:31 PM
Very strange argument. So those that say there is nothing wrong with our abortion culture....do they deserve to be aborted themselves?
Guess I shoulda used teal.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 08, 2014, 07:39:47 PM
I suppose I could have called her Hitler or some of the other wonderful things the left typically does about pols they don't like.....you know, BRUTALLY unfunny and cringeworthy.
But, nah
Oh I don't care what you call her. The joke's execution was just horrible.
Quote from: Jajuannaman on May 08, 2014, 09:37:32 PM
Oh I don't care what you call her. The joke's execution was just horrible.
In your honor...seeng that avatar you had for a few years prior was inspiration of humor.