MUScoop

See the part in Red ... Is a CAPA vote coming to the Madison Basketball team?

I've been in favor of the players unionizing not because I think unionization is a good idea but because it will be a catalyst for change.  In fact I do not expect a union.  Rather, the NCAA is a broken clusterf**k and this movement will cause epic change.  It is already having an effect as detailed here.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=43445.0

This change cannot be worse because we already have the worst system in place now.  The examples in this story explain why (see why the tOSU AD got a bonus!).  CAPA might be the thing that saves this broken system.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Calipari Gets $500,000 as NCAA Student Must Change Water
By Scott Soshnick
April 04, 2014 12:00 AM EDT

http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2014-04-04/calipari-gets-500-000-as-ncaa-student-must-change-water.html

Before Zach Bohannon of the Wisconsin Badgers suits up for the Final Four tomorrow, he knows arena security will be checking the label on his bottled water.

The graduate student working toward a master's in business administration knew that the Nestle Pure Life water he took from his hotel to practice conflicted with the National Collegiate Athletic Association's official sponsor, Coca-Cola Co. (KO)'s Dasani. He still brought it to warmups before last week's regional semifinal, and security ordered him to remove the label.

While the 6-foot-6 forward removed one label, he attached another -- "ridiculous" -- to an NCAA system in which one shot by a 19-year-old University of Kentucky freshman who isn't paid and who can't benefit from his athletic notoriety can result in almost three-quarters of a million dollars in bonus money for his coaches.

"The NCAA likes to hide behind its student-athlete model," said Bohannon, whose Badgers will oppose John Calipari's Kentucky Wildcats in the national basketball semifinal tomorrow at AT&T Stadium in Arlington, Texas. "Well, they can't hide anymore."

A handful of lawsuits and an effort by Northwestern University football players to unionize has led to unprecedented scrutiny of not only the NCAA, but university administrators and coaches. In current broadcast contracts alone, the governing body for college sports and the five power conferences are guaranteed more than $31 billion. That doesn't include other sources of revenue such as sponsorship, merchandise sales, ticket sales and booster donations.
NCAA Rewards

A couple of numbers: The NCAA reaps $11 billion from its 14-year contract with CBS and Turner Sports to broadcast the Division I men's basketball tournament. In football, Walt Disney Co.'s ESPN in 2012 agreed to pay $5.64 billion over 12 years just for the right to show a playoff featuring two semifinals and a title game that'll rotate among venues bidding to serve as host, according to an antitrust lawsuit filed last month by attorney Jeff Kessler, who helped to bring free agency to the National Football League.

The NCAA "is crumbling under the weight of its own hypocrisy," said Allen Sack, a professor of sports management at the University of New Haven in Connecticut. Sack, who played football on Notre Dame's 1966 championship team, is president of the Drake Group, a collection of faculty members who since 1999 have called for reform of an athletic system that they say prioritizes money over academics.

Sports Revenue

Collectively, the schools in the NCAA's five power conferences -- the Atlantic Coast, Southeastern, Big 12, Big Ten and Pac-12 -- reported more than $5 billion in revenue in 2011-12, Kessler's lawsuit said.

"It's very simple," said Ramogi Huma, a former UCLA football player who is now president of the College Athletes Players Association, or CAPA, which is the Northwestern group that won the right to unionize in a decision by Peter Ohr, the National Labor Relations Board's regional director in Chicago. "The NCAA's No. 1 priority is to monopolize every last penny."

NCAA President Mark Emmert wasn't available to comment because of his Final Four schedule, NCAA spokeswoman Stacey Osburn said. He's scheduled to address, among other things, reform issues at a press conference on Sunday.

The NCAA says 23 of the more than 1,100 member colleges and universities make more money than they spend on sports each year. The nonprofit organization funds $2.7 billion in athletic scholarships every year, the NCAA said.

Northwestern's Profit

Northwestern in the fiscal year ended Aug. 31, 2013, posted a combined profit of more than $15 million in its basketball and football programs, according to data schools report to the U.S. Department of Education. Northwestern says it will appeal the ruling that allowed its players to unionize.

The current model of teams switching conferences in a chase for television dollars has its underpinnings in a 1984 antitrust case in which the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the NCAA couldn't restrict the number of TV appearances schools made each year, said Warren Zola, executive director of the office of corporate and government affairs at Boston College's Carroll School of Management. The ruling came five years after the launch of ESPN, which was thirsty for content, especially live events.

Calipari's Bonuses

The NCAA men's basketball tournament has already been a windfall for Calipari, who coached Kentucky to the 2011-12 national title, as well as his assistants.

Calipari's base salary, including broadcast and sponsorship guarantees, is $4.2 million, according to his contract. He had already collected $200,000 in tournament bonuses before Aaron Harrison's 3-point shot in the closing seconds beat Michigan. That triggered a $150,000 bonus for reaching the Final Four, and he gets another $350,000 if the Wildcats beat Wisconsin and then either the University of Connecticut or the University of Florida in the title game scheduled for April 7.

Calipari's three assistants, meantime, will pocket $236,000 in bonuses that kick in from the Final Four if Kentucky wins the tournament. Added to the head coach's possible $500,000, the staff's total bonus possibility is $736,000.

Cars, Golf

Calipari's agreement, which isn't out of whack with what other top-tier coaches receive -- also provides for the use of two cars, 20 lower-level basketball seats to home, away and postseason games, eight football tickets for home games and membership, dues and the initiation fee for a country club.

Compensation for his players, meantime, is limited to their scholarship, room and board and certain fees. For an athlete like Texas resident Harrison, a year of out-of-state tuition, room and board at Kentucky would cost $33,300, according to the school's website. Over four years that's about $133,000.

College athletics are comparable to their professional counterparts when measured by the sale of T-shirts and hats.

Licensed merchandise of college sports accounted for a record $4.62 billion in retail sales in 2012, greater than any other sport except for Major League Baseball, according to the International Licensing Industry Merchandiser's Association and CLC, the licensing affiliate of IMG College that represents more than 200 universities, including all of the Final Four teams, conferences and bowl games, as well as the NCAA.

Supreme Court

Ohr's NLRB decision, which applies to scholarship athletes at private institutions, will eventually be decided by the Supreme Court, said NCAA chief Emmert, who in the fiscal year ended 2012 received almost $1.7 million in total compensation, according to the organization's tax filing.

"It completely changes the relationship from a student who's there to get an education and enjoy all the benefits of being a student at a place like Northwestern to being an employee," Emmert said in a March 30 interview on CBS's "Face the Nation."

The NCAA, school presidents and athletic directors have proposed changes in governance, including a $2,000 stipend that would potentially fill any shortfall between the scholarship and the actual cost of attending school. The power conferences are also proposing separate rules, enabling schools with more revenue to offer greater benefits to the athletes, including better health care and lifetime educational needs, said Larry Scott, commissioner of the Pac-12, which according to the Kessler suit gets a combined $3 billion from ESPN and Fox, or almost $21 million a year per school, through 2023-24.

"Reform is needed," Scott said, adding that he's opposed to unionization because it would only benefit lawyers, agents and some star players. "Not everyone can afford to do the kinds of things we're talking about. The higher-resource conferences can, and want to, and will."

Cable Money

The proliferation of sports-only cable networks like NBC Sports Network and Fox Sports 1 has made DVR-proof content such as live events even more valuable. To that end, the five power conferences have negotiated more than $15 billion in existing TV deals, according to the Kessler lawsuit. Notre Dame football, which operates as an independent, has its own broadcast contract with NBC, which last year extended the agreement through the 2025 season. The network pays the South Bend, Indiana, school about $15 million a year, some of which, according to Notre Dame, is used to fund the financial-aid endowment for the general student body.

"Major college programs generate more programming per institution than any other sports entity out there," said Lee Berke, chief executive officer of LHB Sports, Entertainment & Media Inc., a consultancy based in Scarsdale, New York, whose clients include the University of Oklahoma, Pittsburgh and Texas Christian University.

Besides TV, coaches and players decades ago became walking, talking billboards for the sneaker and apparel companies. At the Final Four, for instance, Kentucky, Florida and Connecticut have contracts with Nike Inc., while Wisconsin has an agreement with Adidas AG.

UNLV's Swoosh

Using prominent coaches and teams for brand promotion was the brainchild of Sonny Vaccaro, who in 1979 while working for Nike paid former University of Nevada-Las Vegas coach Jerry Tarkanian to have his players wear the company's Swoosh logo. Two years later, Vaccaro said, he had 83 schools under contract, with more coaches calling with a request to become a part of it.

"They were lining up and nobody stopped them," Vaccaro said in a telephone interview. "They were always ready to take the money."

Former UCLA basketball player Ed O'Bannon is among the plaintiffs in a 2009 lawsuit alleging the NCAA violates antitrust and publicity-rights laws by preventing students from being compensated for the use of their images. Electronic Arts Inc., the second-largest U.S. video-game publisher, agreed to pay $40 million to resolve the case, leaving the NCAA as the lone defendant. The judge has ordered settlement talks.

`Absurd System'

Vaccaro and Jay Bilas, a former Duke University basketball player and current ESPN analyst, bemoaned terms set forth in the contract of Ohio State University Athletic Director Gene Smith, who received a bonus of $18,086 -- one week of his $940,000 base salary -- when wrestler Logan Stieber won his weight class at the NCAA championship. Stieber, through a university spokeswoman, declined to comment on Smith's bonus or terms of his contract.

"That's an absurd system," Bilas said. "Clearly this is a multimillion-dollar business. It operates as such in every fashion except the athletes aren't getting a cut."

Smith's contract pays a bonus for what is identified as exceptional athletic achievements, including appearances in the Final Four and football postseason, and titles won by individuals in any of 20 sports. Ohio State's wrestling team lost more than $1 million in fiscal year 2012, according to the school.

"It has gotten way out of whack," former Florida State University football coach Bobby Bowden said in a telephone interview, adding that he never made more than $2.4 million in any year. "Now they're all making double."

Bohannon's Impression

All of this has made a lasting impression on Wisconsin's Bohannon, who is more than just an interested bystander in the movement for change in college athletics. He's participated in several of the conference calls with CAPA, the would-be Northwestern union, which has only emboldened his opposition to the NCAA's system.

A day after being made to peel off the label, Bohannon said he sneaked a non-NCAA sponsor bottle of water into the Honda Center in Anaheim, California. Once inside, he and his teammates shared a chuckle at the NCAA's expense.

"I'll make sure to thank my corporate sponsors when we get to the Final Four," Bohannon said. "Oh, we'll have the last laugh."

Anyone else get annoyed by people who use the "OT" on the Hangin' at the Al, board?  Do you people honestly not see the The Superbar?  Do you think your post is so important that you want more eyes on it, so you put it on the main MU board?

/rant over

I thought the superbar was for non-basketball stories.  This is a basketball story (and more) and OT means it's non-MU basketball directly.

If you think all non-MU basketball belongs on the superbar, look at the front page, about half the threads need to be moved (McDonalds Game, St' Johns, Refreshing, "I don't know how I came accross this,"  "If UW wins the NC," and on and on and on)

Quote from: reinko on April 04, 2014, 07:15:28 AM
Anyone else get annoyed by people who use the "OT" on the Hangin' at the Al, board?  Do you people honestly not see the The Superbar?  Do you think your post is so important that you want more eyes on it, so you put it on the main MU board?

/rant over

+1

Hangin' at the Al
Forum / Message board for all things related Marquette Basketball - recruiting, coaching, game strategy, etc.

New Posts    The Superbar
What happens at the Superbar, stays at the Superbar. This is the place to talk about anything non-bball related, like jobs, technology, food & drink on campus, naked beer slide strategy, recent events, etc.

So the mods should move all these threads on page 1 to the superbar
   
OT: Calipari Gets $500,000 as NCAA Student Must Change Water
Refreshing...
Don't know how I came across this
If UW wins the NC, does Bo Ryan stay?
MU Entrance Music - U2 ? Or is it time for a change?
Jabari Parker leaning toward staying, If so, Duke Oversigned by 1
Obekpa transferring from St. Johns?
Without looking it up, try and spell Wojo's last name New
Bruce Pearl recruiting
McDonalds All American Game...
Buzz's Bunch rebrand ideas?
Buzz, Buzz's Bunch and National PR this year???
DJO to the 76ers New
Buzz Bashing

Quote from: reinko on April 04, 2014, 07:15:28 AM
Anyone else get annoyed by people who use the "OT" on the Hangin' at the Al, board?  Do you people honestly not see the The Superbar?  Do you think your post is so important that you want more eyes on it, so you put it on the main MU board?

/rant over

I never read the Superbar. This article was very interesting and absolutely pertains to Marquette basketball, as we are talking about the future of the institution within which the basketball program operates.

The moderators do a nice job moving things they don't believe are relevant to the Superbar. Since you asked a few rhetorical questions, let me ask you this: Is it that hard to just ignore a topic that starts off with "OT", rather then bitch and moan about it?

Quote from: reinko on April 04, 2014, 07:15:28 AM
Anyone else get annoyed by people who use the "OT" on the Hangin' at the Al, board?  Do you people honestly not see the The Superbar?  Do you think your post is so important that you want more eyes on it, so you put it on the main MU board?

/rant over

+1

Hope you are on a "non-moneymaking" athletic scholarship like 80% of the kids are.....

You can say good bye to all of those sports unless there is some sort of revenue sharing....

This is not an Utopian society.....

Football and basketball fund over 90% of all the other sports.....

Marquette spends over $200,000 per year on each and every Bball player on scholarship.....

What if some of the other sports like track unionized and wanted the same level of benefit.....

Don't wish for something that will ultimately be bad.....

Also.....State schools will have a distinct advantage.....Public sector vs. Private sector.....

Change....change.....don't care where it comes from......

I am all for incremental prudent change ......

Do not get me wrong......

But there are a lot of things that you are wishing for that could tear the foundation of Marquette's basketball program apart
if "basketball" gets unionized.....

On a side point.....This will never stand up when it gets farther up the "court" line.....The laws are very much on the side of
the universities once you get past the "single person" activist stage who made this decision.....(a one person regional judgement)

A few lines changed in the college scholarship agreement......Take it or leave it.....

I think most will still take it.....

Quote from: Heisenberg on April 04, 2014, 07:50:53 AM
So the mods should move all these threads on page 1 to the superbar
   
OT: Calipari Gets $500,000 as NCAA Student Must Change Water
Refreshing...
Don't know how I came across this
If UW wins the NC, does Bo Ryan stay?
MU Entrance Music - U2 ? Or is it time for a change?
Jabari Parker leaning toward staying, If so, Duke Oversigned by 1
Obekpa transferring from St. Johns?
Without looking it up, try and spell Wojo's last name New
Bruce Pearl recruiting
McDonalds All American Game...
Buzz's Bunch rebrand ideas?
Buzz, Buzz's Bunch and National PR this year???
DJO to the 76ers New
Buzz Bashing

No. If it has to do with Wojo or even Buzz, it's MU bball relevant. The rest of those threads? Yes.

If there is so much money involved, why don't they "at least" drop ticket prices so the average kid, or family can attend games? Ticket prices don't add that much revenue when looking at the whole picture. The average person can't buy season tickets anymore. With the kind of money programs/conferences make from television and advertisements, people should be able to attend games for $10. I'm totally serious! All this money that the NCAA and the coaches are drowning in is ultimately coming from the consumer. Most of the people that can attend games on a regular basis are either wealthy or they have a corporate connection. For almost all sports today, this is just wrong! Will it change? Probably not, but the greed and the 3-5 million dollar salaries (plus incentives) are ridiculous. Just my rant for the day.  ;D

Quote from: jesmu84 on April 04, 2014, 08:09:26 AM
No. If it has to do with Wojo or even Buzz, it's MU bball relevant. The rest of those threads? Yes.

See everyone has a different definition of what goes on the Superbar.

I don't know why it exists, very few actually bother with it.

Just incorporate all those threads here.  It won't kill you to ignore them.

Quote from: hoops12 on April 04, 2014, 08:10:56 AM
If there is so much money involved, why don't they "at least" drop ticket prices so the average kid, or family can attend games? Ticket prices don't add that much revenue when looking at the whole picture. The average person can't buy season tickets anymore. With the kind of money programs/conferences make from television and advertisements, people should be able to attend games for $10. I'm totally serious! All this money that the NCAA and the coaches are drowning in is ultimately coming from the consumer. Most of the people that can attend games on a regular basis are either wealthy or they have a corporate connection. For almost all sports today, this is just wrong! Will it change? Probably not, but the greed and the 3-5 million dollar salaries (plus incentives) are ridiculous. Just my rant for the day.  ;D

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b126/mrhippo/disgonbgud3.gif)

Quote from: burger on April 04, 2014, 08:09:09 AM
Hope you are on a "non-moneymaking" athletic scholarship like 80% of the kids are.....

You can say good bye to all of those sports unless there is some sort of revenue sharing....

This is not an Utopian society.....

Football and basketball fund over 90% of all the other sports.....

Marquette spends over $200,000 per year on each and every Bball player on scholarship.....

What if some of the other sports like track unionized and wanted the same level of benefit.....

Don't wish for something that will ultimately be bad.....

Also.....State schools will have a distinct advantage.....Public sector vs. Private sector.....

Change....change.....don't care where it comes from......

I am all for incremental prudent change ......

Do not get me wrong......

But there are a lot of things that you are wishing for that could tear the foundation of Marquette's basketball program apart
if "basketball" gets unionized.....

On a side point.....This will never stand up when it gets farther up the "court" line.....The laws are very much on the side of
the universities once you get past the "single person" activist stage who made this decision.....(a one person regional judgement)

A few lines changed in the college scholarship agreement......Take it or leave it.....

I think most will still take it.....

Let me summarize this comment

You agree that football and basketball players are exploited and treated unfairly.  But you also agree that we should continue to treat them unfairly because it is more important to have a men's wrestling and women's softball team than be fair to football and basketball players.

And I think you're wrong about it hurting MU basketball.  I think MU basketball is a clear winner.  It breaks the power that the football schools have over everything.  Madison loses, the B1G loses ... not MU or the basketball only BE.  D1 loses, D3 gains.

Again, a union is not going to happen.  The NCAA will cave and give them what they want before it comes to this.  As the link at the top of the first thread says, they already are talking about giving them what they want (note, they do NOT want to be paid, they are arguing for better working conditions, like tuition after competing to get a degree, health care coverage and independent doctors)

Lastly, for 100 years we have been waiting for prudent incremental change in the NCAA.  It is never happened and, if anything, we have moved further from away from rational rules than ever before.  This is a naive concept because the NCAA is a monopoly has has no reason to ever change or be ever be prudent.  That is why the THREAT of unionization is needed.

Quote from: hoops12 on April 04, 2014, 08:10:56 AM
If there is so much money involved, why don't they "at least" drop ticket prices so the average kid, or family can attend games? Ticket prices don't add that much revenue when looking at the whole picture. The average person can't buy season tickets anymore. With the kind of money programs/conferences make from television and advertisements, people should be able to attend games for $10. I'm totally serious! All this money that the NCAA and the coaches are drowning in is ultimately coming from the consumer. Most of the people that can attend games on a regular basis are either wealthy or they have a corporate connection. For almost all sports today, this is just wrong! Will it change? Probably not, but the greed and the 3-5 million dollar salaries (plus incentives) are ridiculous. Just my rant for the day.  ;D

Restated ... let's go on to the porch of the plantation and ask the master to loosen the chains a little and then we'll be happy.  Abolish slavery?  Not necessary, just give me $10 tickets and I'm good.

This is when Dick Strong and a conglomerate of donors become the de facto owners of the team.  

Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on April 04, 2014, 08:40:51 AM
This is when Dick Strong and a conglomerate of donors become the de facto owners of the team.  

Not sure what this is reference too but every high D1 program has a Dick Strong and big money donors that call the shots. 

The one's that do not are not high D1 programs.

Quote from: Heisenberg on April 04, 2014, 08:32:44 AM
And I think you're wrong about it hurting MU basketball.  I think MU basketball is a clear winner.  It breaks the power that the football schools have over everything.  Madison loses, the B1G loses ... not MU or the basketball only BE.  D1 loses, D3 gains.

One of the reasons I like the idea of paying players is because I think it would start a bidding war among the top 15-20 programs, and I think that those costs would actually help create more parity. If Kentucky is shelling out $2,000,000 a year in payments for its players, but Marquette's players are willing to come for a total sum of maybe $200,000, that burns through a lot of resources for the bigger schools.

I think the bigger schools have the biggest incentive not to allowing paying of student athletes. Wouldn't surprise me if they destroyed themselves trying to buy up talent, while actual "student athletes" who are going for the academic experience are willing to take a lot less.

This thread screams commie... don't hate success.


George: "Your boyfriend reads the Daily Worker? What is he, a Communist?"

Elaine: "He reads everything, you know, Ned's very well read."

George: "Maybe he's just very well...red."

Quote from: warrior07 on April 04, 2014, 08:49:55 AM
One of the reasons I like the idea of paying players is because I think it would start a bidding war among the top 15-20 programs, and I think that those costs would actually help create more parity. If Kentucky is shelling out $2,000,000 a year in payments for its players, but Marquette's players are willing to come for a total sum of maybe $200,000, that burns through a lot of resources for the bigger schools.

I think the bigger schools have the biggest incentive not to allowing paying of student athletes. Wouldn't surprise me if they destroyed themselves trying to buy up talent, while actual "student athletes" who are going for the academic experience are willing to take a lot less.

First, no one is talking about paying for players, not the union, not the big schools and not the NCAA.

But if it came down to that, Jay Bilas explained how it would work ...

Kentucky offers Julius Randle $2,000,000 dollars (or whatever is the going rate).  It is a contract he signs and it is says ....

* Three year commitment.  If he wants to leave early for the NBA, it will cost him, and cost him a lot ($666,666/year).

* Morals clause.  Get busted smoking weed and pay a fine, say $25,000 first offense and $50,000 second.

Here is the really interesting part according to Bilas ...

* Maintain a minimum 2.0 GPA to stay eligible (remember this is still a rule, you are still a student and expected to act like one).  And now that your getting paid, we will not provide you with counselors and special classes.  You can hire your own counselors and no more "theory of basketball" class.  If you're ineligible, we will have a damage clause and you owe the school hundreds of thousands of dollars.  So go ahead and blow off class, it will cost you a ton.

Finally, since you're getting paid, you can sign endorsement deals and sell your likeness.


I have no problem with this kind of arrangement and think MU will do just fine in this type of world.

Title IX, non revenue sports, etc, etc

Quote from: hoops12 on April 04, 2014, 08:10:56 AM
If there is so much money involved, why don't they "at least" drop ticket prices so the average kid, or family can attend games? Ticket prices don't add that much revenue when looking at the whole picture. The average person can't buy season tickets anymore. With the kind of money programs/conferences make from television and advertisements, people should be able to attend games for $10. I'm totally serious! All this money that the NCAA and the coaches are drowning in is ultimately coming from the consumer. Most of the people that can attend games on a regular basis are either wealthy or they have a corporate connection. For almost all sports today, this is just wrong! Will it change? Probably not, but the greed and the 3-5 million dollar salaries (plus incentives) are ridiculous. Just my rant for the day.  ;D

Because sports aren't about the fans. It's about the owners (or schools) getting rich. They will charge whatever the fans will pay. Sorry, but they don't care about your family in ANY way - unless you are contributing $$$$.

Quote from: Heisenberg on April 04, 2014, 09:03:09 AM
First, no one is talking about paying for players, not the union, not the big schools and not the NCAA.

But if it came down to that, Jay Bilas explained how it would work ...

Kentucky offers Julius Randle $2,000,000 dollars (or whatever is the going rate).  It is a contract he signs and it is says ....

* Three year commitment.  If he wants to leave early for the NBA, it will cost him, and cost him a lot ($666,666/year).

* Morals clause.  Get busted smoking weed and pay a fine, say $25,000 first offense and $50,000 second.

Here is the really interesting part according to Bilas ...

* Maintain a minimum 2.0 GPA to stay eligible (remember this is still a rule, you are still a student and expected to act like one).  And now that your getting paid, we will not provide you with counselors and special classes.  You can hire your own counselors and no more "theory of basketball" class.  If you're ineligible, we will have a damage clause and you owe the school hundreds of thousands of dollars.  So go ahead and blow off class, it will cost you a ton.

Finally, since you're getting paid, you can sign endorsement deals and sell your likeness.


I have no problem with this kind of arrangement and think MU will do just fine in this type of world.

Bilas gave an excellent interview with Olbermann a week or so ago. Gave very solid reasoning for the union case and explained how it is not opening a hornet's nest.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 04, 2014, 10:16:26 AM
Title IX, non revenue sports, etc, etc

Plus, once they realize all but .01% of them are not even worth money this will go away. The colleges will say "fine, go ahead" we don't need to deal with this headache. It's amazing how some believe that whatever revenues a school generates via athletics is directly attributable to the athletes and not to the school's name and notoriety that gets them noticed in the first place. The name on the front makes them more valuable than the name on the back.

Just go the baseball route and get this over with. Let them leave after HS.

Quote from: Aughnanure on April 04, 2014, 10:27:32 AM
Plus, once they realize all but .01% of them are not even worth money this will go away. The colleges will say "fine, go ahead" we don't need to deal with this headache. It's amazing how some believe that whatever revenues a school generates via athletics is directly attributable to the athletes and not to the school's name and notoriety that gets them noticed in the first place. The name on the front makes them more valuable than the name on the back.

Just go the baseball route and get this over with. Let them leave after HS.

Yup.

I always love the argument that Player X brings in all this revenue.  Well, actually, no he doesn't.  Before player X, the revenue was still there.  Kentucky sold out games before Coach Cal.  MU had top 20 attendance before a top 20 recruiting class.  Is there a bump here and there because of D Wade or whatever?  Sure...a small bump. 

The vast majority of season ticket holders are going to renew year in and year out because if they don't, they lose their seats.  Regardless of who is coaching or what talent they are bringing in.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 04, 2014, 10:31:27 AM
Yup.

I always love the argument that Player X brings in all this revenue.  Well, actually, no he doesn't.  Before player X, the revenue was still there.  Kentucky sold out games before Coach Cal.  MU had top 20 attendance before a top 20 recruiting class.  Is there a bump here and there because of D Wade or whatever?  Sure...a small bump. 

The vast majority of season ticket holders are going to renew year in and year out because if they don't, they lose their seats.  Regardless of who is coaching or what talent they are bringing in.

+1

Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 04, 2014, 07:43:09 AM
+1

Hangin' at the Al
Forum / Message board for all things related Marquette Basketball - recruiting, coaching, game strategy, etc.

New Posts    The Superbar
What happens at the Superbar, stays at the Superbar. This is the place to talk about anything non-bball related, like jobs, technology, food & drink on campus, naked beer slide strategy, recent events, etc.

I would think anything that pertains to NCAA basketball as a whole pertains to MU basketball too.

More importantly, if we are going to split hairs, but if you want to argue this isn't MU BB related, if we get real technical this wouldn't have anywhere to go.  Hangin' at the AL is for MU basketball stuff, and The Superbar is for "anything non-bball related."  Since it is clearly BB related it doesn't belong in The Superbar either.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 04, 2014, 10:31:27 AM
Yup.

I always love the argument that Player X brings in all this revenue.  Well, actually, no he doesn't.  Before player X, the revenue was still there.  Kentucky sold out games before Coach Cal.  MU had top 20 attendance before a top 20 recruiting class.  Is there a bump here and there because of D Wade or whatever?  Sure...a small bump.  

The vast majority of season ticket holders are going to renew year in and year out because if they don't, they lose their seats.  Regardless of who is coaching or what talent they are bringing in.

You're again arguing the wrong thing.  It's not about paying the players, it's about "working conditions" to put it in union talk.  This is what they want.

* free tuition for life to get your undergraduate degree.  No more year to year deals.  If they want to kick you off (buzz cut) can still get tuition for life until you get an undergraduate degree.
* independent doctors for things like concussion tests
* health care for life for injuries related to your sport
* ability to have a job! even if related to sport (can play in summer league)
* access to agent and scouts.  So can have an agent, can get drafted (or not) can negotiate a contract and even participate in a summer league.  Then in September can either sign the contract or return to school
* full cost of housing and travel.  If Derrick Wilson wants to go home to Alaska over a break, MU will help him.  Similarly, if Duane Wilson wants yo do the same but only needs a two mile ride home, MU can help him too.  Also this means athletes at DePaul get more living expenses than athletes at Creighton because of the differing cost of living of each location.
* ownership of likeness and ability to sign endorsement deals
* more flexible transfer rules

Superbar.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 04, 2014, 10:31:27 AM
Yup.

I always love the argument that Player X brings in all this revenue.  Well, actually, no he doesn't.  Before player X, the revenue was still there.  Kentucky sold out games before Coach Cal.  MU had top 20 attendance before a top 20 recruiting class.  Is there a bump here and there because of D Wade or whatever?  Sure...a small bump. 

The vast majority of season ticket holders are going to renew year in and year out because if they don't, they lose their seats.  Regardless of who is coaching or what talent they are bringing in.

That's all fine and good, but there is still a Player X, regardless of who Player X is, and Player X does no play volleyball.

Quote from: Heisenberg on April 04, 2014, 08:32:44 AM
Let me summarize this comment

You agree that football and basketball players are exploited and treated unfairly.  But you also agree that we should continue to treat them unfairly because it is more important to have a men's wrestling and women's softball team than be fair to football and basketball players.

You're close...most like to claim its about wrestling and volleyball, because that's easier to justify. Really its about themselves...they want their college football and basketball, and they know significant changes will jeopardize it.

There is simply is no way to justify football and basketball paying everyone else's way.

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on April 04, 2014, 11:13:44 AM
That's all fine and good, but there is still a Player X, regardless of who Player X is, and Player X does no play volleyball.

And player X, who plays basketball is getting a $200K education, world class coaching, admittance to a university that he may not have been able to sniff without it, free exposure for his future employers on television, the chance to network with movers and shakers, etc, etc.

Then there's the other issue...what about player X that does play volleyball...or soccer..or track....

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 04, 2014, 11:19:46 AM


Then there's the other issue...what about player X that does play volleyball...or soccer..or track....

You mean the one getting that same $200k education? What about him?

Quote from: Heisenberg on April 04, 2014, 10:54:26 AM

You're again arguing the wrong thing.  It's not about paying the players, it's about "working conditions" to put it in union talk.  This is what they want.

* free tuition for life to get your undergraduate degree.  No more year to year deals.  If they want to kick you off (buzz cut) can still get tuition for life until you get an undergraduate degree.
* independent doctors for things like concussion tests
* health care for life for injuries related to your sport
* ability to have a job! even if related to sport (can play in summer league)
* access to agent and scouts.  So can have an agent, can get drafted (or not) can negotiate a contract and even participate in a summer league.  Then in September can either sign the contract or return to school
* full cost of housing and travel.  If Derrick Wilson wants to go home to Alaska over a break, MU will help him.  Similarly, if Duane Wilson wants yo do the same but only needs a two mile ride home, MU can help him too.  Also this means athletes at DePaul get more living expenses than athletes at Creighton because of the differing cost of living of each location.
* ownership of likeness and ability to sign endorsement deals
* more flexible transfer rules

That's all wonderful.  They can pound sand.  Some of this stuff in your list they have had in the past, abused (the schools and players) so it was taken away.  

Why doesn't music major Sally get to go home to Alaska...or student athlete Ben, who happens to play volleyball and not basketball?

Ownership of their likeness...sign endorsement deals...what a great idea....that won't impact competition levels.  "Hey Lemarcus, sign here with us at Kentucky and I have 20 car dealerships owned by Kentucky alums that just want to use your image to hawk their cars...you'll get $50K from each one..what do you say?"

More flexible transfer rules....hell, why not have open free agency.  That will be awesome...some schools might not even have teams if it all goes well.

Ability to have a job...awesome.  Let's see, I'm old enough (and I'm not that old) to remember Oklahoma football players being paid to water lawns (which they didn't do) or work at swimming pools and get paid for work they didn't do.  Who is monitoring the pay and whether the work is actually done?  The schools?  LOL

Free tuition for life.   Cuz everything in life should be FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE     This is a two way street, you come play for us we give you an education.  There are 4 year scholarships available TODAY.  If you want a guaranteed 4 year ride, find a school that will give you one.  The real world, however, is a world in which no day is guaranteed and you can be out of a job any day.  

Health care for life due to injuries.  Does this count injuries they had in high school?  How about grade school?  How do we know what damaged what and led to what injury?  I have to sit in a chair at work, causes my back issues.  Do I get to go after my employer for back issues?  What about eye issues from staring at a computer?

They have access to professional scouting services today, as long as they don't sign with them.

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on April 04, 2014, 11:17:47 AM
You're close...most like to claim its about wrestling and volleyball, because that's easier to justify. Really its about themselves...they want their college football and basketball, and they know significant changes will jeopardize it.

There is simply is no way to justify football and basketball paying everyone else's way.

Sounds like the 53% that pay taxes for the 100%.....

how does NCAA hockey work?  Don't those guys play pro in lower levels for a few years before going to college?  One of UW's good players just left the school after they lost in the playoffs and is starting to play with an NHL team b/c they had his draft rights from a year or 2 ago.  Baseball drafts guys that play in college.  Baseball drafts basketball players that play basketball in college.  (What was Crawford's deal?)

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on April 04, 2014, 11:23:18 AM
You mean the one getting that same $200k education? What about him?

What are you doing for him\her?  They are putting in the hours, representing the school, having to practice, travel, etc. 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 04, 2014, 11:29:37 AM

Ownership of their likeness...sign endorsement deals...what a great idea....that won't impact competition levels.  "Hey Lemarcus, sign here with us at Kentucky and I have 20 car dealerships owned by Kentucky alums that just want to use your image to hawk their cars...you'll get $50K from each one..what do you say?"

Why is that a problem? If that's what the market for these guys is, why shouldn't they been entitled to it?

More flexible transfer rules....hell, why not have open free agency.  That will be awesome...some schools might not even have teams if it all goes well.

And? So what?

Its fine if the occasional non MU bball-related post ends up on Hangin' at the Al, it happens.

But Heisenberg, you are by far the worst offender. 75% of your stuff should be in the Superbar. Add me to the list of people who would appreciate it if you used that forum more often. Especially when you KNOW something is OT by including it in the title.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 04, 2014, 11:35:34 AM
What are you doing for him\her?  They are putting in the hours, representing the school, having to practice, travel, etc. 

That's great. Not disputing they are putting in work. The school just doesn't get any money in return for that work. That all comes from the revenue sports that fund those volleyball and wrestling programs.

Because the NCAA was setup to at least TRY and have some semblance of fairness in competition.  It isn't going to be, but you can put governors on it to at least attempt to level the playing field.

If you want to get an endorsement deal, go pro.  This isn't pro sports.  You're making a professional sports argument and all that will do is corrupt the process even further.  There are avenues for this stuff...want an endorsement, go to the D-League.  Go play overseas. 

We've gone over transfer rules a million times here. No one said it better than Izzo.  Life is about commitments.  You entered into a commitment to play HERE and in return we feed you, room you, teach you, train you, and prepare you for your next step in life.  We are making a substantial investment in you in time, effort, dollars for which you will benefit, even if you do not go on to a pro sports career.  If you choose to leave HERE at some point it means you have to sit out a year.  DO YOU UNDERSTAND MR. ATHLETE what the commitment is and what the ramifications are if you choose to leave?

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on April 04, 2014, 11:39:46 AM
That's great. Not disputing they are putting in work. The school just doesn't get any money in return for that work. That all comes from the revenue sports that fund those volleyball and wrestling programs.

Yup.  No one has ever said differently, but the law of the land will come into play here. 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 04, 2014, 11:43:48 AM

This isn't pro sports. 

That's funny.

The NCAA has been given the ability to maintain the sham of amateurism to maintain control of where the $ goes. The market (like you), knows that loosening those restrictions will eventually kill the product - and nobody wants that. Selfish people being selfish. I get it. I'm guilty of it myself every time I buy a ticket or turn in the TV.

We've gone over transfer rules a million times here. No one said it better than Izzo.  Life is about commitments.  You entered into a commitment to play HERE and in return we feed you, room you, teach you, train you, and prepare you for your next step in life.  We are making a substantial investment in you in time, effort, dollars for which you will benefit, even if you do not go on to a pro sports career.  If you choose to leave HERE at some point it means you have to sit out a year.  DO YOU UNDERSTAND MR. ATHLETE what the commitment is and what the ramifications are if you choose to leave?


I get that, just would like to see coaches, etc. held to the same standard. Coaches of course have contractual/financial ramifications as a means of honoring their commitments.  Of course since players aren't paid, that is not an option for them.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 04, 2014, 11:45:15 AM
Yup.  No one has ever said differently, but the law of the land will come into play here. 

That is why NU is allowed to create a union.  And they will create it and it will start collective bargaining because it will take the courts years to rule on this.

And it will and it will survive court challenges.  Because, the amount of money involved colors decision and the billions that the schools make off revenue sports are coloring those decisions ... against the schools.

A good lawyer here will tell you perceptions matter, even to judges and courts.  And when the NCAA is pocketing $11 billion over 14 years and it changes how things are viewed.

The NCAA has two options

Option 1:  Hire Chicos as their spokesman.  This will result in them getting steamrolled by epic changes and losing control of the process.

Option 2:  recognize the world is different, radically change and manage that process.

It's no longer if the NCAA radically changes.  It about who leads the changes.

Quote from: Heisenberg on April 04, 2014, 11:55:00 AM
That is why NU is allowed to create a union.  And they will create it and it will start collective bargaining because it will take the courts years to rule on this.

And it will and it will survive court challenges.  Because, the amount of money involved colors decision and the billions that the schools make off revenue sports are coloring those decisions ... against the schools.

A good lawyer here will tell you perceptions matter, even to judges and courts.  And when the NCAA is pocketing $11 billion over 14 years and it changes how things are viewed.

The NCAA has two options

Option 1:  Hire Chicos as their spokesman.  This will result in them getting steamrolled by epic changes and losing control of the process.

Option 2:  recognize the world is different, radically change and manage that process.

It's no longer if the NCAA radically changes.  It about who leads the changes.

Or the NCAA can go tell the union to go pound sand, like Chicos says (I agree, oddly), because the union has zero leverage.  Walk out?  Cool story bro, I can find kids anywhere who are willing to play college sports (Check the intramural teams first!).  The student athletes have FAR more to lose in this situation.  Imagine being an 18 year old kid and you can either:

Go to school for free under the current system and have a chance to go pro.

Unionize, sit out with others, get older, and have no chance to go pro (since you don't play)

No way this union does anything.  It has NOTHING to offer.

Navin

This isn't pro sports.  I know people can't wait to use the exceptions to the rule and say certain schools with certain players are pseudo pros.  I'm not going to argue that, some of it goes on.  However, in most schools that isn't the case.

A professional basketball player doesn't have to go to class...he plays basketball full time.  That is not what a student athlete does.  He is limited in the hours he can practice, must take a certain number of classes to be eligible, must actually pass classes to be eligible, etc.  A professional has a guaranteed contract, a student athlete must actually renew it each year.  Obviously many other differences.

There are professional leagues out there for kids that want this, let them go there.  If you want to be treated like a pro, or want to be compensated in some fashion, then go to where those things are. 

Courts are actually pretty favorable of the amateurism model...

The NCAA has a number of options. They can actually go to court and list off the cases in which courts, including the Supreme Court, have said. For instance, I'll quote Justice Stevens from NCAA vs. Board of Regents: "The NCAA plays a critical role in the maintenance of a revere tradition of amateurism in college sports." If you'd like I could go find some more cases to cite, but I think that pretty much sums up the point.

Simply put, amateurism is viewed as good thing in the American legal system.

Are we all a little turned off at the fact individuals like Calipari make seven figures a year? Yes. Coaching contracts are way out of control, but the NCAA can't put a cap on coaching salaries. Also, nobody is forcing these kids to participate in college athletics. Freedom of contract, they can choose to take part in the system and reap the benefits of a free education or not. Take the Brandon Jennings route if you really don't want to participate in NCAA sports.

Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 04, 2014, 12:22:29 PM
Or the NCAA can go tell the union to go pound sand, like Chicos says (I agree, oddly), because the union has zero leverage.  Walk out?  Cool story bro, I can find kids anywhere who are willing to play college sports (Check the intramural teams first!).  The student athletes have FAR more to lose in this situation.  Imagine being an 18 year old kid and you can either:

Go to school for free under the current system and have a chance to go pro.

Unionize, sit out with others, get older, and have no chance to go pro (since you don't play)

No way this union does anything.  It has NOTHING to offer.

You're making a mistake in thinking this is unique to Northwestern.  They have plans to unionize dozens of programs.  See the first post, Zach Bohannon from Bucky has been on the conference call about unionizing.

Epic change is going to happen. 

Northwestern is just the first, lots will follow.


All Players United campaign launched with 'APU' on wrist tape

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/eye-on-college-football/23769680/all-players-united-campaign-launched-with-apu-on-wrist-tape

September 21, 2013

Players from Georgia Tech and Georgia wrote "APU" on their wrist tape, an acronym standing for "All Players United," in act of protest against the NCAA's treatment of athletes.

The movement is being backed by the National College Players Association, and NCPA president Ramogi Huma said that the gesture has been discussed for months via weekly conference calls with players across the country. It is expected that players will continue to use the social-media hashtags #APU and #AllPlayersUnited, along with more exposure in nationally televised games.

"Players will continue to wear the APU throughout the season and spread the word," Huma told Outside The Lines. "They're taking the reform effort to television, which has never been done. They've been using their bodies to make money for the people who run NCAA sports. Now, for the first time, they're using their bodies to push for basic protections at the very least."

Georgia Tech starting quarterback Vad Lee can seen below with the "APU" on his wrist, along with Synjyn Days (above) and All-ACC defensive end Jeremiah Attaochu. At Georgia, the entire starting offensive line joined Kolton Houston, the junior forced to sit out three years because of a failed NCAA drug test, with APU written on their wrist.

According to NCPAnow.org, there are four primary goals of the #AllPlayersUnited campaign.

• Demonstrate unity among college athletes and fans in favor of NCAA reform.

• Show support for players who joined concussion lawsuits against the NCAA, which could "force the NCAA to finally take meaningful steps to minimize brain trauma in contact sports and provide resources for current and former players suffering with brain injuries."

• Show support for the players who "stepped up in the O'Bannon v. NCAA, EA Sports lawsuit regarding the use of players' images/likeliness, which could unlock billions of dollars in resources for current, future, and former players."

• Stand behind individual players being "harmed by NCAA rules."

After All Players United became a national story on Saturday, the NCAA issued an official statement in response to the movement.

"As a higher education association, the NCAA supports open and civil debate regarding all aspects of college athletics," NCAA Director of Public and Media Relations Stacey Osburn said in a statement. "Student-athletes across all 23 sports provide an important voice in discussions as NCAA members offer academic and athletic opportunities to help the more than 450,000 student-athletes achieve their full potential."

Quote from: Heisenberg on April 04, 2014, 12:44:09 PM
You're making a mistake in thinking this is unique to Northwestern.  They have plans to unionize dozens of programs.  See the first post, Zach Bohannon from Bucky has been on the conference call about unionizing.

Epic change is going to happen. 

Totally disagree.  It won't happen.  What can those players offer that lesser players who would simply accept a scholarship and play?

You have to address the leverage that they would have as a Union.  I dont see any.

Except the ruling from the NLRB pertains to only Northwestern's scholarship football players...which means while Zach Bohannon can sound the clarion horn for unionization, he's going to need some help from the NLRB to do anything. Change may be coming, but it's going to take a lot of judges and officials ignoring a lot of precedent to get there.

Also if the players unionize that means the NCAA and schools can just lockout players after a good faith negotiating effort. If I was the NCAA I'd sit down at the bargaining table, offer to pay them the value of their scholarships, and concede some points on practice times and hours, give in to the health and safety thing (which I think is a good idea btw) and then say take it or leave it. If there's an impasse on the issue, the NCAA and schools then have the option to lockout players. How long do you think players would last before they came back?

Furthermore does anyone else think the players derive value from being associated with the university? Nobody really talks about this but the players get a huge benefit from being associated with Duke or NC or Texas. There are kids who are just as talented at lesser schools whom you never hear of because they don't go to a big time institution, but then make it in the pros.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 04, 2014, 11:29:37 AM
 

Why doesn't music major Sally get to go home to Alaska...or student athlete Ben, who happens to play volleyball and not basketball?

You know why that is a bogus argument. Why don't teachers make $20 mil a year like some athletes? They are much more important to society.

We need to remember this post going forward - Chicos arguing for socialism. Never thought I'd see it  8-)

Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 04, 2014, 12:53:14 PM
Totally disagree.  It won't happen.  What can those players offer that lesser players who would simply accept a scholarship and play?

You have to address the leverage that they would have as a Union.  I dont see any.

180 degrees wrong.  The players have all the leverage and the schools and NCAA have virtually  none.

The schools want us to believe they are amateurs, and history shows if you crush a movement like this ("tell them to pound sand") they are martyrs and the schools and the NCAA are toast.  NU will unionize and many more will follow.

Above Chicos ranted about what the union wanted.  Well I set him up ... the list I put up was not the union demands but what the power conferences are willing to give them to NOT start a union.

Kain Cotler has already won.  We're just toting up the size of the victory.

Here is the story of what the schools are ready to give to stop a union.  All the stuff you told them to pound sand over.

So who has the leverage?



http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/writer/dennis-dodd/24509028/document-details-effort-for-autonomy-among-five-power-conferences

Document details effort for autonomy among power conferences
March 31, 2014 2:33 pm ET

CBSSports.com has obtained a document detailing NCAA rules the power conferences would seek to change or amend in upcoming governance discussions.

The broad outline more formally recognizes those five conferences' desire to adjust rules dealing with agent contact, limits on coaching staff size and scholarship renewal.

According to sources, the document was distributed to college leaders by Wake Forest president Nathan Hatch, chair of the NCAA Steering Committee for Governance. That committee is overseeing the autonomy discussion among those five conferences – Big 12, Pac-12, SEC, ACC and Big Ten.

"I think what was reflected in that memo is a growing consensus," Pac-12 commissioner Larry Scott said. "I think we're going to get there."

Among the topics addressed in what is labeled an "Attachment to Memorandum":

-- A lifetime opportunity fund that would allow former players to complete their education after leaving school. It would benefit players who depart early for the draft or who don't graduate after their eligibility expires.

This point was mentioned specifically by Big Ten commissioner Jim Delany last summer.

-- Provide full cost of attendance to players. This long-discussed topic seems to a certainty in the future. Players would be given a prescribed amount extra in living expenses based on the cost of living in the particular college town.

-- Redefine rules governing agents. That's a preference of SEC commissioner Mike Slive. While Slive hasn't been specific about what those changes would be, assume that new rules would allow more contact with agents while players are in school.

Slive often uses the example of students in other majors having access to experts in that field. Why shouldn't an athlete be given the same advantages of a concert pianist who consults with great composer?

-- Meet the healthy, safety and nutritional needs of players.

Those first four bullet items had been previously mentioned among the commissioners.

New to the memorandum are these points the commissioners may want to change "if future circumstances warrant revision." ...

-- Addressing scholarships that are reduced, cancelled or not renewed at the whim of a coach. Coaches have been criticized for promising a full-ride in recruiting then have the power to cancel scholarships on a year-to-year basis.

In 1973, the NCAA went from four-year scholarships to one-year renewable scholarships.

-- Provide paid transportation for parents for official recruiting visits to championship events. (College Football Playoff, NCAA Tournament, bowls etc.)

-- Rescinding rules that inhibit a player's desire to pursue a non-athletic career. A Minnesota wrestler was declared ineligible last year because he posted music videos of himself online. NCAA rules prohibit a player from using his name or image for commercial use.

That rule seems to going away one way or another. Players' rights to their image and likeness are at the heart of the O'Bannon lawsuit.

-- Permit schools or players to get loans regarding "career-related" insurance.

-- Policies regarding athletes' time demands. Northwestern players were allowed to unionize, in part, because a National Labor Relations Board official concluded that players do devote at least 40 hours per week to their sport.

-- More flexible transfer rules.

At the January NCAA Convention, 70 percent of those at a governance dialogue voting in a straw poll were not against the five conferences gaining voting power in the legislative process.

"I've been impressed with the degree of alignment throughout Division I for allowing autonomy," Scott said. "There is a recognition that has evolved for schools that have more resources up to the cost of attendance."

The commissioners of those leagues began publicly lobbying last summer for voting autonomy. They want rules that fit the high-end stakeholders in college football and basketball (their schools). They also seek enhanced student-athlete welfare.

Last week, that steering committee advocated the addition of an AD, an athlete and faculty-athletic representative in the new governance system. Those new additions would have voting power and be part of a new legislative group called the "The Council." As a whole, The Council would be made up of reps from the 32 Division I conferences and two athletes.

The 34 members would have votes, but those votes would be weighted. The five power conferences would have 37 percent of the vote. No Division I entity would have a majority of the vote.

Several big five ADs and commissioners have advocated more representation at the decision-making level.

Quote from: Heisenberg on April 04, 2014, 01:01:14 PM
180 degrees wrong.  The players have all the leverage and the schools and NCAA have virtually  none.

The schools want us to believe they are amateurs, and history shows if you crush a movement like this ("tell them to pound sand") they are martyrs and the schools and the NCAA are toast.  NU will unionize and many more will follow.

Above Chicos ranted about what the union wanted.  Well I set him up ... the list I put up was not the union demands but what the power conferences are willing to give them to NOT start a union.

Kain Cotler has already won.  We're just toting up the size of the victory.

Here is the story of what the schools are ready to give to stop a union.  All the stuff you told them to pound sand over.

So who has the leverage?



http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/writer/dennis-dodd/24509028/document-details-effort-for-autonomy-among-five-power-conferences

Document details effort for autonomy among power conferences
March 31, 2014 2:33 pm ET

CBSSports.com has obtained a document detailing NCAA rules the power conferences would seek to change or amend in upcoming governance discussions.

The broad outline more formally recognizes those five conferences' desire to adjust rules dealing with agent contact, limits on coaching staff size and scholarship renewal.

According to sources, the document was distributed to college leaders by Wake Forest president Nathan Hatch, chair of the NCAA Steering Committee for Governance. That committee is overseeing the autonomy discussion among those five conferences – Big 12, Pac-12, SEC, ACC and Big Ten.

"I think what was reflected in that memo is a growing consensus," Pac-12 commissioner Larry Scott said. "I think we're going to get there."

Among the topics addressed in what is labeled an "Attachment to Memorandum":

-- A lifetime opportunity fund that would allow former players to complete their education after leaving school. It would benefit players who depart early for the draft or who don't graduate after their eligibility expires.

This point was mentioned specifically by Big Ten commissioner Jim Delany last summer.

-- Provide full cost of attendance to players. This long-discussed topic seems to a certainty in the future. Players would be given a prescribed amount extra in living expenses based on the cost of living in the particular college town.

-- Redefine rules governing agents. That's a preference of SEC commissioner Mike Slive. While Slive hasn't been specific about what those changes would be, assume that new rules would allow more contact with agents while players are in school.

Slive often uses the example of students in other majors having access to experts in that field. Why shouldn't an athlete be given the same advantages of a concert pianist who consults with great composer?

-- Meet the healthy, safety and nutritional needs of players.

Those first four bullet items had been previously mentioned among the commissioners.

New to the memorandum are these points the commissioners may want to change "if future circumstances warrant revision." ...

-- Addressing scholarships that are reduced, cancelled or not renewed at the whim of a coach. Coaches have been criticized for promising a full-ride in recruiting then have the power to cancel scholarships on a year-to-year basis.

In 1973, the NCAA went from four-year scholarships to one-year renewable scholarships.

-- Provide paid transportation for parents for official recruiting visits to championship events. (College Football Playoff, NCAA Tournament, bowls etc.)

-- Rescinding rules that inhibit a player's desire to pursue a non-athletic career. A Minnesota wrestler was declared ineligible last year because he posted music videos of himself online. NCAA rules prohibit a player from using his name or image for commercial use.

That rule seems to going away one way or another. Players' rights to their image and likeness are at the heart of the O'Bannon lawsuit.

-- Permit schools or players to get loans regarding "career-related" insurance.

-- Policies regarding athletes' time demands. Northwestern players were allowed to unionize, in part, because a National Labor Relations Board official concluded that players do devote at least 40 hours per week to their sport.

-- More flexible transfer rules.

At the January NCAA Convention, 70 percent of those at a governance dialogue voting in a straw poll were not against the five conferences gaining voting power in the legislative process.

"I've been impressed with the degree of alignment throughout Division I for allowing autonomy," Scott said. "There is a recognition that has evolved for schools that have more resources up to the cost of attendance."

The commissioners of those leagues began publicly lobbying last summer for voting autonomy. They want rules that fit the high-end stakeholders in college football and basketball (their schools). They also seek enhanced student-athlete welfare.

Last week, that steering committee advocated the addition of an AD, an athlete and faculty-athletic representative in the new governance system. Those new additions would have voting power and be part of a new legislative group called the "The Council." As a whole, The Council would be made up of reps from the 32 Division I conferences and two athletes.

The 34 members would have votes, but those votes would be weighted. The five power conferences would have 37 percent of the vote. No Division I entity would have a majority of the vote.

Several big five ADs and commissioners have advocated more representation at the decision-making level.

Sorry, I just live in reality.  In what reality do amateur athletes have any leverage? 

Player A is a great player, and decides to be in the Union and has a chance to go pro.

Player B is a great player, and decides to NOT be in the Union and has a chance to go pro.

Player C is an okay player, and decides to be in the Union and has no chance to go pro.

Player D is an okay player, and decides to NOT be in the Union and has no chance to go pro.

Consequences:

Player A gets locked out because the NCAA won't negotiate with the Union... Player A ages, losing MILLIONS of dollars in potential pro salary, has to pay to attend school.

Player B gets his scholarship, plays in games, impresses scouts, and turns pro.

Player C gets locked out because the NCAA won't negotiate with the Union... Player C ages, loses nothing because he isn't going pro anyway, but has to attend school and pay off his scholarship... basically he becomes an everyday student.

Player D gets his scholarship, plays in game, and graduates with no debt.

Do you honestly believe that that players are all going to band together and skip out on the chance of their life to turn pro?  Not a chance.

What can the players do to force others to join the Union?  Nothing.

If the NCAA locks out the Unionized players what can the Union do?  Nothing.  The NCAA can find replacement players.

Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 04, 2014, 01:43:09 PM
Sorry, I just live in reality.  In what reality do amateur athletes have any leverage? 

Player A is a great player, and decides to be in the Union and has a chance to go pro.

Player B is a great player, and decides to NOT be in the Union and has a chance to go pro.

Player C is an okay player, and decides to be in the Union and has no chance to go pro.

Player D is an okay player, and decides to NOT be in the Union and has no chance to go pro.

Consequences:

Player A gets locked out because the NCAA won't negotiate with the Union... Player A ages, losing MILLIONS of dollars in potential pro salary, has to pay to attend school.

Player B gets his scholarship, plays in games, impresses scouts, and turns pro.

Player C gets locked out because the NCAA won't negotiate with the Union... Player C ages, loses nothing because he isn't going pro anyway, but has to attend school and pay off his scholarship... basically he becomes an everyday student.

Player D gets his scholarship, plays in game, and graduates with no debt.

Do you honestly believe that that players are all going to band together and skip out on the chance of their life to turn pro?  Not a chance.

What can the players do to force others to join the Union?  Nothing.

If the NCAA locks out the Unionized players what can the Union do?  Nothing.  The NCAA can find replacement players.

In the other thread we talked about how Uthoff wanted to transfer and Bo was too restrictive and made to look bad.

Here is reality ... any school, and I mean any school that locks out a player will see the following

* Human cry about the unfairness (the vast majority of the public will side with the players).

* The school is portrayed as a Slave Camp on the cover of Time

* The admission director tells the BoT that he/she cannot conceive of a worse situation to kill student applications

* All this will lead to the head coach and AD resigning before the following Saturday

* The debate will be if the President of the University should reign.  He/she probably goes too.

So who has the leverage?  They are daring the university to lock them out.  The first school to do this will lose in so many ways they you cannot count them all.  The union will win over and over and over.

This is the worst possbile advice.  The schools know this which is why they are caving and trying to give into the demands to prevent the union from creating in the first place.

Quote from: brandx on April 04, 2014, 12:59:52 PM
You know why that is a bogus argument. Why don't teachers make $20 mil a year like some athletes? They are much more important to society.

We need to remember this post going forward - Chicos arguing for socialism. Never thought I'd see it  8-)

Who said teachers are more important to society?   ;)

Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 04, 2014, 01:43:09 PM
Sorry, I just live in reality.  In what reality do amateur athletes have any leverage?

How about the reality of Marquette basketball?  People want to argue the value is in the name on the front, not on the back.  That's partially true.  But look back through the posts from this season, with people complaining about who got playing time and how that affected the season's outcome, followed by threats not to renew season tickets.  The name on the front may be why I'm interested, but the combination of the names on the back is what provides us with a quality product.  I don't mean to be harsh, but why isn't women's basketball a revenue sport?

As much as you think otherwise, I suspect your player B would be a rarity.  He knows his skill is a valuable commodity, and something he can profit off of if he sticks with player A.  So that means we're gonna have a team full of player Cs.  And while they may fill the void, I guarantee fans will cry out about product quality, likely via their wallets.

I ultimately don't think they'll unionize, but I think it's foolish to close your eyes, shake your head and say it's fine the way it is.  For all the talk about reform in the last ten years, I'm glad someone finally did something that caught the NCAA's attention.

Quote from: Heisenberg on April 04, 2014, 12:44:09 PM
You're making a mistake in thinking this is unique to Northwestern.  They have plans to unionize dozens of programs.  See the first post, Zach Bohannon from Bucky has been on the conference call about unionizing.

Epic change is going to happen. 

I have no doubt they plan on unionizing elsewhere and just as unions have done in business, it will cost plenty.  Some programs will drop football all together...how's that for opportunities to play.  Awesome.

Do I think someone like NW will drop...no.  Is it possible that middle tier and lower tier programs that are hanging on for dear life...absolutely.

Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

Quote from: Heisenberg on April 04, 2014, 09:03:09 AM


Here is the really interesting part according to Bilas ...

* Maintain a minimum 2.0 GPA to stay eligible (remember this is still a rule, you are still a student and expected to act like one).  And now that your getting paid, we will not provide you with counselors and special classes.  You can hire your own counselors and no more "theory of basketball" class.  If you're ineligible, we will have a damage clause and you owe the school hundreds of thousands of dollars.  So go ahead and blow off class, it will cost you a ton.

Finally, since you're getting paid, you can sign endorsement deals and sell your likeness.


I have no problem with this kind of arrangement and think MU will do just fine in this type of world.

Endorsement deals STILL need school approval as the paid student-athlete is still a representative of the university, and...

the GPA is a joke. Can be manipulated to help the University (UNC) or kick a kid out (like Creaned).

Quote from: Heisenberg on April 04, 2014, 01:01:14 PM


Above Chicos ranted about what the union wanted.  Well I set him up ... the list I put up was not the union demands but what the power conferences are willing to give them to NOT start a union.

Kain Cotler has already won.  We're just toting up the size of the victory.

Here is the story of what the schools are ready to give to stop a union.  All the stuff you told them to pound sand over.

So who has the leverage?

You didn't set me up at all, I said why all those things are a bad idea...and they are.  They may do it, that is their decision to make.  Guess what will happen as result, more corruption than ever, more cheating than ever and the haves will have more and the have nots will lie in ruins.

But hey, they can choose to do what they want.  I have zero doubt that there will be some "grand bargain" that comes of this and everyone will kiss the ring and say how great it is for everyone, until a few years from now when it isn't enough and the bitching continues.  Am I against everything on the list?  Not at all.  Do I have serious concerns about a bunch of it? Yes, because it has been done in the past and failed miserably.

Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.....that extends to Marquette hoops as well.  You just might get it.

Quote from: Heisenberg on April 04, 2014, 02:21:55 PM
In the other thread we talked about how Uthoff wanted to transfer and Bo was too restrictive and made to look bad.

Here is reality ... any school, and I mean any school that locks out a player will see the following

* Human cry about the unfairness (the vast majority of the public will side with the players).

* The school is portrayed as a Slave Camp on the cover of Time

* The admission director tells the BoT that he/she cannot conceive of a worse situation to kill student applications

* All this will lead to the head coach and AD resigning before the following Saturday

* The debate will be if the President of the University should reign.  He/she probably goes too.

So who has the leverage?  They are daring the university to lock them out.  The first school to do this will lose in so many ways they you cannot count them all.  The union will win over and over and over.

This is the worst possbile advice.  The schools know this which is why they are caving and trying to give into the demands to prevent the union from creating in the first place.

Slave camp....only a fool would buy that argument or go with that nonsense.  Ask the other students on campus if student athletes are working the slave camps with all their tutors, free tuition, free clothes, trips to some great places (bowl games, Maui Classic, etc), television exposure, alumni giving them $100 hand shakes.  Yeah, those slaves.

How do schools without solid athletic departments survive and prosper?  Those darn student admissions.

Billy Packer with some interesting comments.

I especially like him tearing tOSU AD Gene Smith a new one over his bonus detailed in the first post above.  If he can get a $18,000 bonus for a wrestler winning a championship, it really blows up the idea that their is no money after football and basketball.  

Also, his "out of control" remark is consistent with my "broken clusterf**k" comment.  As I noted above, I start with the assumption that college athletics are broken now and a union movement can't break what's broken.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-04-04/picker-picks-florida-for-ncaa-warns-about-unionization.html

Picker Picks Florida for NCAA, Warns About Unionization
By Ryan Kerr  Apr 4, 2014 9:00 PM PT

Packer, 74, also said college athletics in general are "completely out of control." He said a special panel should be created to investigate and make recommendations on the future of college sports.

Special Committee

"I'd like to see a committee headed up by guys like Bill Bradley," he said, referring to the former all-American college basketball player at Princeton University, professional for the New York Knicks and former U.S. senator from New Jersey.

As an example of his concerns, Packer cited the Ohio State University athletic director receiving a bonus from the school for one of the college's wrestlers winning the NCAA championship.

"If I'm a student athlete there, I'm saying you've got to be crapping me?," Packer said. "He didn't recruit him, he didn't coach him, he doesn't even know him and he's getting a bonus on championships."

Packer questioned the feasibility of college athletics unionizing after the National Labor Relations Board ruling last month that would allow football players Northwestern University in Evanston, Illinois, to create the first union for college athletes.

NCAA Reaction

"If I was the NCAA, I would applaud it and I would say, 'OK, we're going to make the 500,000 kids that participate in intercollegiate athletics employees,'" he said. "So they've got to understand what an employee is. It's a person that can be fired. It's a person that -- that basically gets paid based on performance -- and it's also a person that we withhold taxes on them."

The NCAA should "just take a ridiculous position to show those student athletes that there are ramifications to following somebody like the United Steelworkers," he said.

In college basketball, Packer opposes the "one and done" rule that allows players to attend college for only a year and then turn professional. He said the rule has hurt professional basketball even more.

"In the last seven years, there have been 59 kids that have gone one and done," he said. "Of those 59, 14 of them are now starters in the NBA, seven, you could say, have star status and nine of them aren't even in the league," Packer said. "The NBA has really been hurt by the one and done."

Dominant Teams

With the one and done system, he predicted that college basketball soon will be dominated by five or six teams following the model of Kentucky coach John Calipari, who frequently recruits high school basketball all-Americans who play only one year and then go to the NBA.

He said this model has caused particular problems for perennial basketball powerhouse Duke University, the Durham, North Carolina-based school that Packer noted has been knocked out of the NCAA tournament's first round in two of the last three years.

He also said the Atlantic Coast Conference, to which Duke belongs, in general has been hurt by the one-and-done rule.

"The ACC really hasn't made that transition as well as some of the other conferences," said Packer.

Although picking Florida to win, Packer highlighted Wisconsin coach Bo Ryan, who is set to make his Final Four debut after leading the Badgers to their 14th consecutive NCAA tournament appearance. Packer said that while Ryan, 66, doesn't get the national attention he deserves, he's one of the most respected coaches in the college ranks.

"He sticks to his fundamentals," Packer said. "He recruits toward his program, as opposed to going out and trying to recruit stars. And he does an incredible job getting guys to play his style of basketball and the consistency by which he coaches is something to be admired."

Other schools looking to unionize and Bucky basketball mentioned as a possibility.



http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/10730058/union-says-players-other-college-teams-expressed-interest-forming-unions

Players from other universities have expressed interest in forming unions in the wake of the landmark decision last week involving the Northwestern football team, a union organizer said Friday.

Tim Waters of the United Steelworkers would not disclose the players or their schools, saying it was too early to reveal who they are. But he said they reached out following the decision last week by a regional director of the National Labor Relations Board declaring Northwestern's football players have the right to form a union.

"We're not giving out who it is or who they are, but the answer is yes," Waters said. "There's a lot of excitement out there. We've been contacted by a number of players."

A member of Wisconsin's Final Four basketball team said he participated in weekly conference calls in recent months with the union and Ramogi Huma, head of the National College Players Association, and other players. The NCPA and the steelworkers are working together on the union push, with the NCAA, Big Ten Conference and Northwestern opposing the move.

"I don't know exactly how many there were. But on average on a weekly call there were probably 10 or 20, at least," said Zach Bohannon, a reserve on the team. "So it was definitely a unique experience just hearing the concerns that players all over the country had, and then just voicing my opinion."

Northwestern players will vote April 25 on whether to become the first college athletes represented by a union. But it could be years, if ever, before college athletes are given a seat at the bargaining table to discuss things like practice hours, medical care and concussions.

Still, Waters said the publicity generated by the ruling that Northwestern football players are employees and can unionize has made more players aware that they, too, could have bargaining rights.

"We've been contacted and are taking every one of them seriously," he said. "It's a process, a long process. But leaders of teams across the country have reached out and said we support it and are interested in looking at this for our team."

Complicating any effort for the steelworkers is that the NLRB ruling only applies to private schools like Northwestern. Public schools are covered by state labor laws, and in some states public employees are not allowed to unionize at all.

Huma and the union have been working since 2000 to try and organize college players. Their goal, they say, is not to get schools to pay players but to give them bargaining rights over issues that affect their lives and could affect their health.

It wasn't, however, until after they had collected union authorization cards from a majority of players on the Northwestern football team in January that organizers announced the effort to unionize the team. Huma said Friday that was part of a strategy not to alert the NCAA or the schools in advance about any union activity.

"They've been very out front all along that they don't want any change like this," said Huma, a former UCLA linebacker.

Bohannon said he learned about the NCPA last summer from a former Wisconsin player, Jared Berggren, who suggested he get on the organization's email list. That led to his participation, beginning in the fall, in a weekly conference call with organizers and players from other schools, he said.

" It was just an hour weekly conference call and we talked about different issues that we found with the NCAA, what we can do going forward as student-athletes to help," Bohannon said.

Bohannon, who is in his final year of eligibility, said he wasn't necessarily advocating for a union but wanted athletes to have more rights.

"Being a Republican, I don't like the whole unionization thing, I don't think that's probably the best option," he said. "But right now it's really, there's not many other options for our student-athletes, so I think it got the necessary publicity that we need, and hopefully the NCAA listens to some of our voices."

Zach Bohannon better be careful, the lunatics in Madison might have a sit in right in front of his apartment or dorm room.

Is Collins's job at risk because of the possible unionization?
Is he on record for supporting it?

Quote from: 77ncaachamps on April 05, 2014, 01:53:04 PM
Is Collins's job at risk because of the possible unionization?
Is he on record for supporting it?

Not the basketball team, the football team, head coach Pat Fitzgerald is fine.

They are treating it like all campus protests, no matter how loopy or stupid it may be (see the Dartmouth President getting locked out of his office this week by a sit-in for "gender and social justice") they will respect it and the left-leaning professors (read all of them) are actually encouraging it.  Kain Colter is a hero in Evanston.

This is why their will never ever ever ever be a lock out like Hards wants, the universities are caving to the union now and will continue to cave until the union gets everything go it wants.

Like I said before, Kain Cotler has won, the only question is the size of the victory.  And with it will be a radical change in College sports.

Colter hasn't won a damn thing yet.  Slow down.


What Packer was suggesting is exactly what I said last week....you want to unionize and get those perks, fine.  Here you go ladies...that scholarship is now taxed.  You don't perform...bye bye.  Etc, etc.  Lots of ways to play this.

These kids (unions in general) want their cake and eat it too, which is why they ultimately fail.  At some point other people's money can't keep them afloat. 

This has a long long way to go. 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 05, 2014, 02:05:30 PM

Colter hasn't won a damn thing yet.  Slow down.


What Packer was suggesting is exactly what I said last week....you want to unionize and get those perks, fine.  Here you go ladies...that scholarship is now taxed.  You don't perform...bye bye.  Etc, etc.  Lots of ways to play this.

These kids (unions in general) want their cake and eat it too, which is why they ultimately fail.  At some point other people's money can't keep them afloat.  

This has a long long way to go.  

Their won't be a union ... See the link above, which you discussed.  The power conferences are essentially proposing to change the rules to the pro-union forces everything they want.  What is not said, but implied, is they will give them everything in change for no union.

Quote from: Heisenberg on April 05, 2014, 02:13:33 PM
Their won't be a union ... See the link above, which you discussed.  The power conferences are essentially proposing to change the rules to the pro-union forces everything they want.  What is not said, but implied, is they will give them everything in change for no union.

If that is the case, the power conferences are stupid beyond repair.  Because as is the case always, its never enough.  Give an inch, they will take a mile.  They will threaten again in a few years, and demand more.  And again, and demand more...so on and so forth.

Call their bluff.  You want to unionize, unionize and here come the consequences of doing so.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 05, 2014, 02:17:50 PM
If that is the case, the power conferences are stupid beyond repair.  Because as is the case always, its never enough.  Give an inch, they will take a mile.  They will threaten again in a few years, and demand more.  And again, and demand more...so on and so forth.

Call their bluff.  You want to unionize, unionize and here come the consequences of doing so.

Their a bunch of lefties ... Why didn't the president of Dartmouth send in the cops with billy clubs to get his office back?  That's what they do, cave and cave and cave.

Quote from: Heisenberg on April 05, 2014, 02:29:03 PM
Their a bunch of lefties ... Why didn't the president of Dartmouth send in the cops with billy clubs to get his office back?  That's what they do, cave and cave and cave.

THEY'RE

Well, if these power conferences have given in, I wonder why Fitzgerald is urging his players to vote against it since this is all a #done deal

http://espn.go.com/chicago/college-football/story/_/id/10734087/pat-fitzgerald-urges-northwestern-wildcats-players-vote-union

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 05, 2014, 02:05:30 PM
Colter hasn't won a damn thing yet.  Slow down.


These kids (unions in general) want their cake and eat it too, which is why they ultimately fail.  At some point other people's money can't keep them afloat. 
 

Just as college prez's want to have their cake and eat it too

Quote from: brandx on April 06, 2014, 06:55:40 PM
Just as college prez's want to have their cake and eat it too

Some, absolutely.   Those losing money in athletics and having to subsidize the athletic department with student fees, etc...not so much.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 06, 2014, 07:02:13 PM
Some, absolutely.   Those losing money in athletics and having to subsidize the athletic department with student fees, etc...not so much.

Serious question....

If the colleges consistently lose so much money on athletics, why wouldn't they trim or cut their programs? Seems to me, that if I was in charge of something that's bleeding my budget dry, I'd eliminate the cost

Quote from: MUsoxfan on April 07, 2014, 12:05:51 PM
Serious question....

If the colleges consistently lose so much money on athletics, why wouldn't they trim or cut their programs? Seems to me, that if I was in charge of something that's bleeding my budget dry, I'd eliminate the cost

For some, it is a matter of pride.  They've had a football team for 75 years and they don't want to let it go.  For others, it is a matter of staying at the D1 level.  You need a certain number of sports to be allowed to play D1.  MU, was at the lowest limit allowed prior to adding LAX.  If MU were to drop one sport, we could not stay at D1 at the time.  I believe the requirement is 14 sports (7 men / 7 women or 6 men / 8 women).

Northwestern's Fitzgerald Reiterates Stance Against Unionization Effort Ahead Of Vote

Published April 7, 2014

Several players backed up Fitzgerald's opposition to unionizing
Northwestern Univ. football players on April 25 will vote on whether to unionize, but coach Pat Fitzgerald on Saturday said it is "in their best interests to say no," according to Adam Rittenberg of ESPN.com. Fitzgerald said, "With the research that I've done, I'm going to stick to the facts and I'm going to do everything in my power to educate our guys. Our university is going to do that. We'll give them all the resources they need to get the facts." Fitzgerald on Wednesday "read a letter to players and sent it to their parents," but he is "prohibited from making promises to players about benefits they would receive if they vote against unionizing." He also "cannot make any threats or interrogate players on how they will vote." Several older NU players on Saturday "voiced their opposition to a union." NU C Brandon Vitabile: "A lot of guys feel the same as I do. Coach Fitz has done everything in his power and been a voice for us and he has gotten changes." He added players "have to realize the ramifications of what may occur" if the unionization efforts come to fruition. NU RB Venric Mark: "Things do need to change, and I hope the NCAA sees that. But at the end of the day, Northwestern treats us very well, and we do not need a third party to come in between us and the coaches" (ESPN.com, 4/5). In Chicago, Teddy Greenstein wrote Fitzgerald's message against the effort "got across." While several players "declined to say how they would vote," Vitabile, Mark, QB Trevor Siemian and WR Kyle Prater "all came out against" the effort. Given their "stature as team leaders, that casts serious doubt" as to whether the College Athletes Players Association will get the 50.1% it needs to "begin collective bargaining" (CHICAGO TRIBUNE, 4/6). Siemian: "I've been treated unbelievably, far exceeding my expectations" (CHICAGO SUN-TIMES, 4/5).

NOT A SURE THING ANYMORE: ESPN's Rittenberg said it is "going to be a very interesting vote," as it is "hard to call it right now." Rittenberg: "It seems pretty 50-50 on the team, and the fact that a lot of the older players that are looked up to on that team seem to oppose the union could be important." ESPN's Bram Weinstein asked if the NU players "feel threatened in any way." Rittenberg: "It is a massive distraction. They are programmed to play football and to focus on winning Big Ten championships, and right now to practice during the spring. ... I don't think they fully realize how big this petition, at least to petition for union back in January, would be. It has become a national story, they are always being talked about." Rittenberg added, "Are they going to go down this route and potentially be pioneers as far as forming a union? I think that is a little bit intimidating for a lot of the players on that team, whether they want to be those guys." Weinstein added, "We thought the 'yes' vote was a foregone conclusion. I guess we had better think otherwise" ("SportsCenter," ESPN, 4/6).

HUMA'S HOPE: In N.Y., Ben Strauss wrote under the header, "Voices Emerging Against A Union." CAPA President Ramogi Huma will be at NU to "press their case to the players in the coming weeks" (N.Y. TIMES, 4/5). Huma on Thursday at the Aspen Institute refuted that CAPA "wants pay for play." He said, "This is not about salary." He "reiterated his desire to focus on issues like closing the gap between scholarship amounts and the full cost of attendance, covering sports-related medical expenses, improving graduation rates and reducing concussions" (L.A. TIMES, 4/5).

SUPPORTING CAST: CBSSPORTS.com's Jeremy Fowler reported more than 50 former college players -- including several Pro Football HOFers and "prominent names -- have signed a 'Statement of Support' for the Ed O'Bannon class-action lawsuit against the NCAA over the right for players to use their name for commercial purposes." The list includes Texans RB Arian Foster, ESPN's Desmond Howard, former NBAer Nolan Smith, 10 Pro Football HOFers and Lions GM Martin Mayhew, among others (CBSSPORTS.com, 4/4).