How is everyone blaming Buzz for so much of this year when the fact of the matter is this is the same brand of MU bball we have seen for a while now.
We are the junkyard dogs, we get in close games, we won alot of those games.
This year we got in alot of those close games and we didn't come through and alot of that is not on Buzz its on the guys on the floor. NO ONE took the role of leader.
Jamil had the most disappointing season I have witnessed from an MU player in the last 5 years and didn't even seem to care.
Buzz game plan has always been predicated on making more free throws than the opponent attempts. Check the stats from these close games we missed a ton of free throws. Jamil at 68% Otule in his 6th year at 50ish or starting PG at 50 ish. Can you blame Buzz for guys not caring about practicing free throws? Even Gardner in big spots in these last few games bricked them. We would have beaten St Johns if Gardner made 2 at the end.
This year was to blame on a lack of player leadership not poor game planning IMO
Quote from: Clam Crowder on March 14, 2014, 01:39:53 PM
How is everyone blaming Buzz for so much of this year when the fact of the matter is this is the same brand of MU bball we have seen for a while now.
We are the junkyard dogs, we get in close games, we won alot of those games.
This year we got in alot of those close games and we didn't come through and alot of that is not on Buzz its on the guys on the floor. NO ONE took the role of leader.
Jamil had the most disappointing season I have witnessed from an MU player in the last 5 years and didn't even seem to care.
Buzz game plan has always been predicated on making more free throws than the opponent attempts. Check the stats from these close games we missed a ton of free throws. Jamil at 68% Otule in his 6th year at 50ish or starting PG at 50 ish. Can you blame Buzz for guys not caring about practicing free throws? Even Gardner in big spots in these last few games bricked them. We would have beaten St Johns if Gardner made 2 at the end.
This year was to blame on a lack of player leadership not poor game planning IMO
There is plenty of blame to go around, and the players deserve a heaping helping of it. Still, although I'm a big Buzz guy, I'll admit that he had his worst season as a game-manager and decision-maker.
It is a coach's job to find answers. If his chosen "brand" didn't work this season, he needed to find a different brand, or at least make some tweaks to the brand. Instead, Buzz chose to keep trying to force success out of a failed situation.
Unlike those who think Buzz should be fired and replaced with the dozens of proven coaches who have led teams on S16-S16-E8 runs and are clamoring to come to Milwaukee, I am glad we have Buzz. Doesn't mean he is blameless, though.
I support Buzz and he doesn't deserve all of the blame.
But putting Derrick and Jake out there every gosh darn game is something I place solely on his shoulders.
With Deonte's game and the little output from Jake and Derrick, it just befuddles me more why the freshmen weren't getting enough reps.
Quote from: MU82 on March 14, 2014, 02:07:39 PM
There is plenty of blame to go around, and the players deserve a heaping helping of it. Still, although I'm a big Buzz guy, I'll admit that he had his worst season as a game-manager and decision-maker.
It is a coach's job to find answers. If his chosen "brand" didn't work this season, he needed to find a different brand, or at least make some tweaks to the brand. Instead, Buzz chose to keep trying to force success out of a failed situation.
Unlike those who think Buzz should be fired and replaced with the dozens of proven coaches who have led teams on S16-S16-E8 runs and are clamoring to come to Milwaukee, I am glad we have Buzz. Doesn't mean he is blameless, though.
+1
His players, his strategies, his game plans, his decisions, his rotations, his practices, his 2.5 million per year, 8th highest BB budget of all D1 schools, his jet for recruiting=his responsibility. He gets the credit for what went prior to this year, he gets the focus for poor performance this year
I don't think that it is too much to ask of Buzz to install an inbound that we actually can get inbounds.........no steals, no turnovers, no 5 second calls, and no timeouts.
I'm not asking that we score on these inbound plays, I am asking that we GET THE BALL INBOUNDS.
Quote from: MU82 on March 14, 2014, 02:07:39 PM
There is plenty of blame to go around, and the players deserve a heaping helping of it. Still, although I'm a big Buzz guy, I'll admit that he had his worst season as a game-manager and decision-maker.
It is a coach's job to find answers. If his chosen "brand" didn't work this season, he needed to find a different brand, or at least make some tweaks to the brand. Instead, Buzz chose to keep trying to force success out of a failed situation.
Unlike those who think Buzz should be fired and replaced with the dozens of proven coaches who have led teams on S16-S16-E8 runs and are clamoring to come to Milwaukee, I am glad we have Buzz. Doesn't mean he is blameless, though.
Who are those clamoring to have him fired and replaced?
Quote from: We R Final Four on March 14, 2014, 02:25:36 PM
I'm not asking that we score on these inbound plays
Why the hell not? That's the whole point of the friggin game!
Far and away his worst coaching job at MU. Every coach has an off year on occasion. Hope he reflects and finally lets go of his total and complete disinterest in playing freshman - to argue he's willing based on say Vander and Todd is not quite an apples to apples comparison, as the cupboard was quite empty Vander's freshman year, as was it to an extent Todd's. He also didn't have guys he'd developed close relationships with over the course of 3+ years, which is the case with Derrick and Juan...more loyalty heartstrings in play.
Burton should have been starting from Day 1. Like we saw in San Diego State game early..Burton sparks team significantly in early 2nd half...and then bench city for last 10 minutes of game. Same as we saw in St. John's game. Same basically as last night against X. Buzz has to let go of not trusting freshman, and live with their mistakes - particularly if more talented than the vet.
Buzz also refused to ever give Dawson a fair shake/opportunity with playing time. Even the one game at Georgetown - that was cause Derrick told Buzz to keep running with John because he was playing well.
Why a coach would want to play 4 on 5 on the offensive end all year, when he clearly has a better offensive option at the same position is beyond me...so you have a few more turnovers...consider every time Derrick is on the floor and has wide open 3's he could take...but doesn't - those are missed opportunities essentially, and it bogs down the game for the other 4 guys. Hell if Dawson just made the wide open 3 he took last night...totally different game..we might have won...
Simply am beyond befuddled as to how Buzz couldn't have made the necessary changes - max Burton, Mayo, Gardner...and split time at PG with Dawson/Derrick...and not bury JJJ on bench.
Listened to IWB's show recently and co-host 'Zach' said something to the effect that this was Buzz' best coaching year. Called to mind the immortal words of Mike Ditka, several years ago when he asked "Who are you crapping?" After that bit of BS, there was no need to continue listening.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 14, 2014, 02:31:54 PM
Who are those clamoring to have him fired and replaced?
I want to know who are the coaches clamoring to come to Milwaukee?
Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 14, 2014, 04:37:40 PM
I want to know who are the coaches clamoring to come to Milwaukee?
Well, 4 of the last 4 have had NCAA success that came here. The last two have had very big success. There will always be coaches that want to cut their teeth and prove their abilities, especially at a place like MU that has the resources and commitment to the basketball program.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 14, 2014, 02:31:54 PM
Who are those clamoring to have him fired and replaced?
I'm guessing joyless willie isn't the only one, but maybe I was being presumptuous.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 14, 2014, 06:20:56 PM
Well, 4 of the last 4 have had NCAA success that came here. The last two have had very big success. There will always be coaches that want to cut their teeth and prove their abilities, especially at a place like MU that has the resources and commitment to the basketball program.
This is of course true. Marquette is a much better job now than when Crean got it, and it's probably a better job than when Buzz got it, too.
But going back to my post, I was being facetious. I guess I shoulda used teal.
Quote from: MU82 on March 14, 2014, 10:08:37 PM
I'm guessing joyless willie isn't the only one, but maybe I was being presumptuous.
Reading is fundamental MU82. Did you not pick up reading with your illustrious MU degree that you have so often "bragged" about. I have said on numerous occasions in the past, that I do not advocate firing Mr. Buzz, but then again you admit you are only "guessing". And, yes, you are being presumptuous
Quote from: keefe on March 14, 2014, 02:33:46 PM
Why the hell not? That's the whole point of the friggin game!
Baby steps--need to inbound the ball before you can score. :)
Quote from: We R Final Four on March 15, 2014, 08:01:59 AM
Baby steps--need to inbound the ball before you can score. :)
have to go with Keefe here. Why the hell take a TO to draw up a play if it always fails. The purpose of the TO is to specifically get a scoring play.
Quote from: We R Final Four on March 14, 2014, 02:25:36 PM
I don't think that it is too much to ask of Buzz to install an inbound that we actually can get inbounds.........no steals, no turnovers, no 5 second calls, and no timeouts.
I'm not asking that we score on these inbound plays, I am asking that we GET THE BALL INBOUNDS.
Wille--not sure what you are talking about. As you can read in this very thread, I am asking that we NOT use a timeout to get the ball inbounds. And then you say.....'yeah i am against using a TO to install a play that isnt going to work anyways.'
Not sure what you missed---I am not talking about calling a TO to draw up a play.
I don't think anyone has called for Buzz to be fired after this season.
If next year is another rancid pile of crap season, however, things could get interesting. As big as phony as Crean was, the students and alumni just loved the guy. And nobody worked harder at that PR angle of the job than Crean. From what I've heard (from a coach of another MU team), Buzz could care less about relationships with alumni and students. That's fine as long as you win big.
Quote from: WarriorGreg1965 on March 15, 2014, 09:32:22 AM
I don't think anyone has called for Buzz to be fired after this season.
If next year is another rancid pile of crap season, however, things could get interesting. As big as phony as Crean was, the students and alumni just loved the guy. And nobody worked harder at that PR angle of the job than Crean. From what I've heard (from a coach of another MU team), Buzz could care less about relationships with alumni and students. That's fine as long as you win big.
I remember seeing a video where Buzz brought donuts to students outside waiting for a game. Not saying that proves he cares much about those relationships but I feel like he at least tries to keep it on good terms.
Quote from: weareMU13 on March 15, 2014, 11:20:44 AM
I remember seeing a video where Buzz brought donuts to students outside waiting for a game. Not saying that proves he cares much about those relationships but I feel like he at least tries to keep it on good terms.
I really think just about every coach in the country does this.
Quote from: forgetful on March 15, 2014, 11:25:49 AM
I really think just about every coach in the country does this.
Crean did similar things, and likely donuts, so is that where Buzz coined the idea?
Quote from: forgetful on March 15, 2014, 11:25:49 AM
I really think just about every coach in the country does this.
While that's true I'm sure it still makes the students like him a bit more
Quote from: weareMU13 on March 15, 2014, 11:35:17 AM
While that's true I'm sure it still makes the students like him a bit more
Yup--it works in elections too as votes are bought with dole outs.
Quote from: WarriorGreg1965 on March 15, 2014, 09:32:22 AM
I don't think anyone has called for Buzz to be fired after this season.
If next year is another rancid pile of crap season, however, things could get interesting. As big as phony as Crean was, the students and alumni just loved the guy. And nobody worked harder at that PR angle of the job than Crean. From what I've heard (from a coach of another MU team), Buzz could care less about relationships with alumni and students. That's fine as long as you win big.
This year was terrible and what made it worse was a lot of people feel we left a lot of talent on the bench, that had they received playing time could have made a difference. Would they have? Who knows, I believe they would have as the bar was set so terribly low by our backcourt and it couldn't get much worse. I expect to have a similar year next year and then I think Buzz will feel some pressure. I think it would take 2 more years in a row like this one before his job would be in jeopardy. I am very curious to see how he does next year after this dismal performance this year. Hope he turns it around because I think he's about as good a recruiter as we can hope to get at MU...now he just needs to figure a way to utilize the highly ranked guys. I don't think his game day coaching would be hard to replace.
Quote from: WarriorGreg1965 on March 15, 2014, 09:32:22 AM
I don't think anyone has called for Buzz to be fired after this season.
If next year is another rancid pile of crap season, however, things could get interesting. As big as phony as Crean was, the students and alumni just loved the guy. And nobody worked harder at that PR angle of the job than Crean. From what I've heard (from a coach of another MU team), Buzz could care less about relationships with alumni and students. That's fine as long as you win big.
Hmmmm... I have no idea if that rumor is true about relations with alumni and students, but those relationships should be important for a HC. Anybody else have any inside dope about that rumor? Sounds a bit far fetched, but as Tony said to Riff and later sang about "Who knows?"
Erin, Ines and I were discussing Buzz' coaching job this morning before we got out of bed. The consensus was that every coach needs to be assessed for 6 years before judgment can be rendered.
Good thing Chicos wasn't in the sack with y'all, 'cuz he'd lobby for 5 years.
Quote from: keefe on March 15, 2014, 02:22:00 PM
Erin, Ines and I were discussing Buzz' coaching job this morning before we got out of bed. The consensus was that every coach needs to be assessed for 6 years before judgment can be rendered.
What are the names of the other three fingers?
The worst part of this season is that if he played the freshmen all year I don't think we'd have a worse record than we do now. We might have still been left out of the tourney, but all those freshmen would have a ton of experience and would be able to hit the ground running next year. What a waste of a year.
Quote from: Boozemon Barro on March 15, 2014, 03:11:51 PM
The worst part of this season is that if he played the freshmen all year I don't think we'd have a worse record than we do now. We might have still been left out of the tourney, but all those freshmen would have a ton of experience and would be able to hit the ground running next year. What a waste of a year.
Exactly. This year got us no closer to a Big East title. If the frosh had played, there would be considerable enthusiasm for playing post-season basketball. Losing with players with no upside is simply unacceptable for a program like MU.
Quote from: Boozemon Barro on March 15, 2014, 03:11:51 PM
The worst part of this season is that if he played the freshmen all year I don't think we'd have a worse record than we do now. We might have still been left out of the tourney, but all those freshmen would have a ton of experience and would be able to hit the ground running next year. What a waste of a year.
It was really the result of being too hopeful. After the Butler loss, the coaching staff should have seen what we really were: a mediocre team (with that lineup). The close victories to Hall, DePaul, and others, only amplified our false hopes of making the tourney.
I mostly agree with you. I'm not so sure about all of the freshmen, but I am certain with respect to Dawson taking Dwil's spot for all of those games--we had nothing to lose and everything to gain, including a no-worse record and a more experienced PG heading in to next season.
4 games ago, MU was talked about as being on the bubble. Can't scrap the season at that point. No coach would. 48 hours ago, with Nova losing, there was talk about running the table and winning the conference tourney. In hindsight, that argument can be made. In the moment, when the coach is still thinking about making the NCAA tourney, giving up and giving freshmen minutes he doesn't feel they have earned makes zero sense.
Quote from: Boozemon Barro on March 15, 2014, 03:11:51 PM
The worst part of this season is that if he played the freshmen all year I don't think we'd have a worse record than we do now. We might have still been left out of the tourney, but all those freshmen would have a ton of experience and would be able to hit the ground running next year. What a waste of a year.
Disagree with your premise that the team would have the same record. If that were true, people here would be bitching that Buzz was playing the freshmen too much. You are saying the year was a waste because of a hypothetical that you have no idea is true.
The individuals improvement from year to year is not directly related to how much game time they get in the prior year.
Quote from: tower912 on March 15, 2014, 03:23:46 PM
4 games ago, MU was talked about as being on the bubble. Can't scrap the season at that point. No coach would. 48 hours ago, with Nova losing, there was talk about running the table and winning the conference tourney. In hindsight, that argument can be made. In the moment, when the coach is still thinking about making the NCAA tourney, giving up and giving freshmen minutes he doesn't feel they have earned makes zero sense.
I can't speak for others, but the only change I really wanted to see all year was Dawson at point. It was clear to me (and others) as early as November, that we were not going to make the tourney with Dwil at the helm. Easy to say now, right? Yes, but the Dawson faction has long been saying as much, in spite of the false hope that beating Hall, DePaul, X on MU day, etc yielded. Giving Dawson 30 min per game and Dwil 10 is hardly "scrapping the season" or "giving up" IMO. Putting Favre in for the Majik Man was not throwing the season away; on the contrary, it was an attempt to save it.
I think pretty much everyone here would agree that Dawson has a higher ceiling than Dwil. I believe that a player's potential is reached only if he gets significant minutes. To be clear, a necessary condition for a player to reach his full potential is to get playing time, as this is the only way to replicate game-time emotions, the only way to obtain valuable video footage for our coaches to analyze, and the only way for the developing player to see different defensive schemes. Truly a missed opportunity.
Instead, I fear that this season's frustrations, especially the principal one of deficiency at the PG position, will be realized next season as well. I hope I am wrong. But there has been an abundance of false hope around here this season.
Buzz is to blame. He is responsible for the program period. He looked lost during most of the year. Watching the Michigan State vs. Wisconsin game now, it's a game of two very well coached teams. Much different than what we saw at MU this year. Izzo is a great teacher as he talks to the players constantly. Can our players understand Buzz's raspy, yelling voice at all?
Quote from: hairyworthen on March 15, 2014, 03:26:34 PM
Disagree with your premise that the team would have the same record. If that were true, people here would be bitching that Buzz was playing the freshmen too much. You are saying the year was a waste because of a hypothetical that you have no idea is true.
The individuals improvement from year to year is not directly related to how much game time they get in the prior year.
Well this is the nature of all argumentation in sports, and even politics and other areas as well. In many cases, it is very difficult to measure the counterfactual. The Derrick clan says that without Derrick's stellar defense, Cotton drops 65 on us. The Dawson clan says that without Derrick's average defense, Cotton only drops 28 on us (instead of 25). Who is right? As you say, we'll never know. Or, to say the very least, it is very difficult to measure.
I also disagree about improvement not being related to in-game playing time. You have to play. You can practice all you want, but you need to play. Imagine someone who merely reads about the ACT, studies isolated questions over and over, reads up on strategies on how to answer and spot tricks in the questions, etc. These things are fine and will probably help the person get a higher score on the test. However, this person cannot do well on the test unless he actually sits down and takes an old test under the same conditions that the actual test will be administered (eg, timed).
Quote from: tower912 on March 15, 2014, 03:23:46 PM
4 games ago, MU was talked about as being on the bubble. Can't scrap the season at that point. No coach would. 48 hours ago, with Nova losing, there was talk about running the table and winning the conference tourney. In hindsight, that argument can be made. In the moment, when the coach is still thinking about making the NCAA tourney, giving up and giving freshmen minutes he doesn't feel they have earned makes zero sense.
Only here - nowhere else. I see being on the bubble as being one of the teams that is close to being in or out. We were never one of those. We were almost always 10-15 teams away. As far as talk or running the table, I don't know where you get that. Just fanboy talk with no reasoning behind it. Even if we beat X, we stood very little chance against Creighton and everyone knew it. Two blowouts do not mean MU has a great chance in the 3rd meeting. It means they are way better than MU.
Quote from: ElDonBDon on March 15, 2014, 04:13:06 PM
Well this is the nature of all argumentation in sports, and even politics and other areas as well. In many cases, it is very difficult to measure the counterfactual. The Derrick clan says that without Derrick's stellar defense, Cotton drops 65 on us. The Dawson clan says that without Derrick's average defense, Cotton only drops 28 on us (instead of 25). Who is right? As you say, we'll never know. Or, to say the very least, it is very difficult to measure.
I also disagree about improvement not being related to in-game playing time. You have to play. You can practice all you want, but you need to play. Imagine someone who merely reads about the ACT, studies isolated questions over and over, reads up on strategies on how to answer and spot tricks in the questions, etc. These things are fine and will probably help the person get a higher score on the test. However, this person cannot do well on the test unless he actually sits down and takes an old test under the same conditions that the actual test will be administered (eg, timed).
Of course you improve in some aspects by getting in game experience but that's not they only reason players improve. They mature physically and mentally, they are familiar with routines and other arenas, they know what the coaches expect from day 1, they have a whole offseason to train and get better. Playing in games is a small part of it.
I don't even know what the hell you are talking about with the ACT test analogy, not even close to the same. These kids have played basketball most of their lives. Very different than taking an ACT for the first time.
Tower is correct. What coach thinks, with a tournament bid still on the line, "well the hell with it we suck, I am going to give up and play the freshmen to salvage the season"
Quote from: ElDonBDon on March 15, 2014, 04:13:06 PM
Well this is the nature of all argumentation in sports, and even politics and other areas as well. In many cases, it is very difficult to measure the counterfactual. The Derrick clan says that without Derrick's stellar defense, Cotton drops 65 on us. The Dawson clan says that without Derrick's average defense, Cotton only drops 28 on us (instead of 25). Who is right? As you say, we'll never know. Or, to say the very least, it is very difficult to measure.
I also disagree about improvement not being related to in-game playing time. You have to play. You can practice all you want, but you need to play. Imagine someone who merely reads about the ACT, studies isolated questions over and over, reads up on strategies on how to answer and spot tricks in the questions, etc. These things are fine and will probably help the person get a higher score on the test. However, this person cannot do well on the test unless he actually sits down and takes an old test under the same conditions that the actual test will be administered (eg, timed).
I believe that is still called practice. Maybe you are looking for a better comparison like going in and taking the test to see what it is like so you know how hard is and you can practice harder for the next time.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on March 15, 2014, 04:04:30 PM
Buzz is to blame. He is responsible for the program period. He looked lost during most of the year. Watching the Michigan State vs. Wisconsin game now, it's a game of two very well coached teams. Much different than what we saw at MU this year. Izzo is a great teacher as he talks to the players constantly. Can our players understand Buzz's raspy, yelling voice at all?
Oh, Oh, Stretch. You are implying that Bo is a better coach than Buzz. You are probably right, but on this board that is blasphemy.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on March 15, 2014, 04:04:30 PM
Buzz is to blame. He is responsible for the program period. He looked lost during most of the year. Watching the Michigan State vs. Wisconsin game now, it's a game of two very well coached teams. Much different than what we saw at MU this year. Izzo is a great teacher as he talks to the players constantly. Can our players understand Buzz's raspy, yelling voice at all?
Having at least a couple of NBA players helps a bit too. But I don't think there is any argument about Izzo being a better coach. But, he's been there a lot longer - Buzz has a chance to get there.
Buzz is still learning. He stuck with what worked for him in the past. That being to rely on players who had been acclimated to his system. Crean recognized that he need the three amigos ASAP if Marquette was going to make any type of splash in the Big East. Buzz relied on what worked for him in the past. Oh well, we will see what next season brings.
Quote from: Warrior of Law on March 15, 2014, 03:18:25 PM
Exactly. This year got us no closer to a Big East title. If the frosh had played, there would be considerable enthusiasm for playing post-season basketball. Losing with players with no upside is simply unacceptable for a program like MU.
Yes, and amazingly this is exactly the same boat Milwaukee Buck fans have been in for years, apparently those coaching principles of pampering veteran players with PT is the case at both the college and pro levels.