Buzz is officially off the hot young coach list
Nobody would want Calipari either if he stepped away from Kentucky.
Quote from: wadesworld on March 14, 2014, 12:51:49 AM
Nobody would want Calipari either if he stepped away from Kentucky.
Not sure about that. But then Calipari is in no danger of losing his job. Neither is Buzz, for that matter. But I doubt he is on many short lists for some of the more coveted jobs after this year.
What is fascinating about expectations is that Tubby Smith was all but beatified after he won it all in his first year at Kentucky. I suspect that if any coach won it all at Marquette his employment would be secure forever, save for moral turpitude.
You can get it back. Coaches have been on and off those lists. Next year will be interesting. I still disagree that folks think there is not talent on this team. Talent is there, whether it is blossoming and on display is another story. A lot of it sat on the bench this year.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 14, 2014, 01:08:15 AM
You can get it back. Coaches have been on and off those lists. Next year will be interesting. I still disagree that folks think there is not talent on this team. Talent is there, whether it is blossoming and on display is another story. A lot of it sat on the bench this year.
That's true. If Steve Alford gets the nod at a Blue Blood then anything is possible.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 14, 2014, 01:08:15 AM
You can get it back. Coaches have been on and off those lists. Next year will be interesting. I still disagree that folks think there is not talent on this team. Talent is there, whether it is blossoming and on display is another story. A lot of it sat on the bench this year.
As do I.
The likes of Brad Stevens (and Mark Few?) would have a field day with the talent that this team has.
Quote from: ElDonBDon on March 14, 2014, 01:19:36 AM
As do I.
The likes of Brad Stevens (and Mark Few?) would have a field day with the talent that this team has.
Mark Few has gone to as many Sweet 16s in his career as Buzz had consecutively until tonight. He also has less Elite Eights than Buzz Williams, and Buzz Williams has been coaching for a much shorter time (and never had a 1 seed in the NCAA Tournament because his team plays absolutely nobody worth noting in the regular season).
People here are absolutely silly. If this were a Kentucky board everyone here would be asking to have Shaka Smart take over for John Calipari.
Buzz has had one bad year in his 6 so far. Shucks. Kentucky, UCLA, Indiana, and North Carolina have all had down years in that time. And we sure as sh!t aren't a blue blood program like those programs are. Roy Williams and John Calipari can't recruit talent and can't coach kids up. Allowing a team to fall to NIT level for one year? Unacceptable.
Who on this team has talent? (I get that it's on Buzz to recruit the talent, I'm just wondering what talent you see, because clearly you see more than I do.) Juan had some cool mix tapes from high school. Todd has an older brother who plays in the NBA. Jamil is athletic. Jake can hit an uncontested 3 pointer. Deonte can put the ball in the basket. Chris is 24 years old. Davante has a vertical of almost 7 inches. Dawson makes a few highlight real plays sometimes. JuJuan was ranked highly. Steve went to Simeon. Derrick can throw a football.
There are a *couple* of players on the roster that have talent. A couple doesn't get you into the dance (unless you play in the Horizon League). Everyone on the roster can do *one or two aspects* of basketball well. Some of our younger guys ooze with *potential.* But where is the current talent? What 5 man lineup plus 3 bench guys can you put together and say "these guys should beat Villinova, Creighton, San Diego State, New Mexico, Ohio State?" Maybe if we can take JJJ, Burton, Duane Wilson, and Dawson of 3 years from now and Todd of a year from now and Davante and healthy Steve from 2 years from now. But this year's roster? The fact of the matter is "We ain't no good."
Quote from: wadesworld on March 14, 2014, 01:31:17 AM
Mark Few has gone to as many Sweet 16s in his career as Buzz had consecutively until tonight. He also has less Elite Eights than Buzz Williams, and Buzz Williams has been coaching for a much shorter time (and never had a 1 seed in the NCAA Tournament because his team plays absolutely nobody worth noting in the regular season).
People here are absolutely silly. If this were a Kentucky board everyone here would be asking to have Shaka Smart take over for John Calipari.
Buzz has had one bad year in his 6 so far. Shucks. Kentucky, UCLA, Indiana, and North Carolina have all had down years in that time. And we sure as sh!t aren't a blue blood program like those programs are. Roy Williams and John Calipari can't recruit talent and can't coach kids up. Allowing a team to fall to NIT level for one year? Unacceptable.
Who on this team has talent? (I get that it's on Buzz to recruit the talent, I'm just wondering what talent you see, because clearly you see more than I do.) Juan had some cool mix tapes from high school. Todd has an older brother who plays in the NBA. Jamil is athletic. Jake can hit an uncontested 3 pointer. Deonte can put the ball in the basket. Chris is 24 years old. Davante has a vertical of almost 7 inches. Dawson makes a few highlight real plays sometimes. JuJuan was ranked highly. Steve went to Simeon. Derrick can throw a football.
There are a *couple* of players on the roster that have talent. A couple doesn't get you into the dance (unless you play in the Horizon League). Everyone on the roster can do *one or two aspects* of basketball well. Some of our younger guys ooze with *potential.* But where is the current talent? What 5 man lineup plus 3 bench guys can you put together and say "these guys should beat Villinova, Creighton, San Diego State, New Mexico, Ohio State?" Maybe if we can take JJJ, Burton, Duane Wilson, and Dawson of 3 years from now and Todd of a year from now and Davante and healthy Steve from 2 years from now. But this year's roster? The fact of the matter is "We ain't no good."
Are you serious? I doubt that a lot of you didnt think JFB, Jae or DJO didnt have much "talent" and wouldnt have had a significant impact as they did. Honestly, I really think Buzz's plans kinda got screwed when Taylor took longer then expected while recovering and Duane got hurt. Those were two guys who were to be rotational pieces for this team.
Most AD's aren't that fickle or dumb. They look at body of work.
Quote from: Stone Cold on March 14, 2014, 03:51:32 AM
Most AD's aren't that fickle or dumb. They look at body of work.
I am thrilled to have Buzz as our coach. But he is not everyone's cup of tea. And this season has certainly raised doubts in some, confirmed suspicions in others, and made many of the rest wonder.
So to your point, yes, I would agree that most AD's will look at the body of work and will notice wrinkles, warts, pimples, and blemishes. Anyone who thinks Buzz is mainstream or conventional isn't seeing the whole man. Personally, I think that adds to his luster but then I felt the same way about Al. And the reality is that Al was not universally liked. I think the same can be said about Buzz Williams.
We may be over analyzing this season and Buzz. We needed better guard play and didn't have it. Period. Still got 9 wins in conference and improved until we sort of gave in at the end.
Quote from: Stone Cold on March 14, 2014, 04:17:24 AM
We may be over analyzing this season and Buzz. We needed better guard play and didn't have it. Period. Still got 9 wins in conference and improved until we sort of gave in at the end.
A hallmark of good scientific practice is to experiment with different hypotheses. You are correct that our starting guard play was found wanting. And found wanting. And found wanting. And found wanting.
Quote from: wadesworld on March 14, 2014, 01:31:17 AM
Mark Few has gone to as many Sweet 16s in his career as Buzz had consecutively until tonight. He also has less Elite Eights than Buzz Williams, and Buzz Williams has been coaching for a much shorter time (and never had a 1 seed in the NCAA Tournament because his team plays absolutely nobody worth noting in the regular season).
People here are absolutely silly. If this were a Kentucky board everyone here would be asking to have Shaka Smart take over for John Calipari.
Buzz has had one bad year in his 6 so far. Shucks. Kentucky, UCLA, Indiana, and North Carolina have all had down years in that time. And we sure as sh!t aren't a blue blood program like those programs are. Roy Williams and John Calipari can't recruit talent and can't coach kids up. Allowing a team to fall to NIT level for one year? Unacceptable.
Who on this team has talent? (I get that it's on Buzz to recruit the talent, I'm just wondering what talent you see, because clearly you see more than I do.) Juan had some cool mix tapes from high school. Todd has an older brother who plays in the NBA. Jamil is athletic. Jake can hit an uncontested 3 pointer. Deonte can put the ball in the basket. Chris is 24 years old. Davante has a vertical of almost 7 inches. Dawson makes a few highlight real plays sometimes. JuJuan was ranked highly. Steve went to Simeon. Derrick can throw a football.
There are a *couple* of players on the roster that have talent. A couple doesn't get you into the dance (unless you play in the Horizon League). Everyone on the roster can do *one or two aspects* of basketball well. Some of our younger guys ooze with *potential.* But where is the current talent? What 5 man lineup plus 3 bench guys can you put together and say "these guys should beat Villinova, Creighton, San Diego State, New Mexico, Ohio State?" Maybe if we can take JJJ, Burton, Duane Wilson, and Dawson of 3 years from now and Todd of a year from now and Davante and healthy Steve from 2 years from now. But this year's roster? The fact of the matter is "We ain't no good."
Pass the Buzz mushrooms, Wadesworld.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 14, 2014, 01:08:15 AM
You can get it back. Coaches have been on and off those lists. Next year will be interesting. I still disagree that folks think there is not talent on this team. Talent is there, whether it is blossoming and on display is another story. A lot of it sat on the bench this year.
+1
This is a "what have you done for us lately" world. And lately, Buzz has sucked. His decisions have been questionable most of the year (using the eye test). But, he's still a good coach. He needs to focus on teaching the offensive talented guys defensive schemes, so they can stay on the floor. Not the DW's he has on the team.
Quote from: Stone Cold on March 14, 2014, 04:17:24 AM
We may be over analyzing this season and Buzz. We needed better guard play and didn't have it. Period. Still got 9 wins in conference and improved until we sort of gave in at the end.
How do you define "sort of gave in"?
I saw a team that won 6 of 8, had a bad loss to Creighton (which doesn't make MU unique) and then played extremely hard in losing by 1 point in 2OT, 1 point in 2OT and 3 points.
Maybe some fans gave in, but I don't see how the players or coaches gave in -- sort of or otherwise.
Accuse Buzz and his boyzz of all kinds of things this season, but quitting should not be one of them.
The combination of this season's results and Buzz's very high price tag should keep him in Milwaukee for the foreseeable future. Until Buzz wants to take another job for half the salary.
Quote from: Stone Cold on March 14, 2014, 04:17:24 AM
We may be over analyzing this season and Buzz. We needed better guard play and didn't have it. Period. Still got 9 wins in conference and improved until we sort of gave in at the end.
My thoughts too.
It seems that Buzz leaned on his Seniors and upper classman every season to step up and they always did and delivered for the team. This season he followed the same pattern and they just didn't get it done for whatever reason. It appears Buzz had the gut feel that the team was improving and he thought they were ready to breakout any moment and go on a multi-game roll. Well it obviously just didn't happen. C'est la vie! Maybe the NIT is where we finally get on a roll and at least gain some post-season experience for the younger players.
Maybe gave in isn't the best phrase but they didn't "rise up" to the challenge especially in crunch time. No natural leaders. Mayo showed a little leadership potential (i.e. give me the f,;king ball in crunch time) but I think the providence loss really got to this team.
Quote from: wadesworld on March 14, 2014, 01:31:17 AM
Mark Few has gone to as many Sweet 16s in his career as Buzz had consecutively until tonight. He also has less Elite Eights than Buzz Williams, and Buzz Williams has been coaching for a much shorter time (and never had a 1 seed in the NCAA Tournament because his team plays absolutely nobody worth noting in the regular season).
People here are absolutely silly. If this were a Kentucky board everyone here would be asking to have Shaka Smart take over for John Calipari.
Buzz has had one bad year in his 6 so far. Shucks. Kentucky, UCLA, Indiana, and North Carolina have all had down years in that time. And we sure as sh!t aren't a blue blood program like those programs are. Roy Williams and John Calipari can't recruit talent and can't coach kids up. Allowing a team to fall to NIT level for one year? Unacceptable.
Who on this team has talent? (I get that it's on Buzz to recruit the talent, I'm just wondering what talent you see, because clearly you see more than I do.) Juan had some cool mix tapes from high school. Todd has an older brother who plays in the NBA. Jamil is athletic. Jake can hit an uncontested 3 pointer. Deonte can put the ball in the basket. Chris is 24 years old. Davante has a vertical of almost 7 inches. Dawson makes a few highlight real plays sometimes. JuJuan was ranked highly. Steve went to Simeon. Derrick can throw a football.
There are a *couple* of players on the roster that have talent. A couple doesn't get you into the dance (unless you play in the Horizon League). Everyone on the roster can do *one or two aspects* of basketball well. Some of our younger guys ooze with *potential.* But where is the current talent? What 5 man lineup plus 3 bench guys can you put together and say "these guys should beat Villinova, Creighton, San Diego State, New Mexico, Ohio State?" Maybe if we can take JJJ, Burton, Duane Wilson, and Dawson of 3 years from now and Todd of a year from now and Davante and healthy Steve from 2 years from now. But this year's roster? The fact of the matter is "We ain't no good."
IMO, there is talent on this team and very good talent. The problem is that some positions, especially in college ball, the talent is paramount for success. Or another way to put it, we can have a ton of talent in three or four positions, but if it isn't there in the most important position, then it becomes a tough go.
Imagine a talented offensive line and wr's, but the QB is average at best...eventually you need the QB to make some plays.
Quote from: Stone Cold on March 14, 2014, 04:17:24 AM
We may be over analyzing this season and Buzz. We needed better guard play and didn't have it. Period. Still got 9 wins in conference and improved until we sort of gave in at the end.
You are right. However our forwards were MIA quite a bit as well. Should be an interesting summer. As I said before hope Buzz has his first 13 scholiie player team next season, but I'm not holding my breath.
Quote from: Stone Cold on March 14, 2014, 03:51:32 AM
Most AD's aren't that fickle or dumb. They look at body of work.
Agreed. One season will not take Buzz off the radar. Let's not forget that TC had only 1 NCAA win in his last 5 years at MU, yet apparently his previous 'body of work' was enough to land him the single greatest coaching job in the college world - "It's Indiana! It's Indiana!"
...err, wait, was I trying to prove that ADs are NOT dumb?? Nevermind.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 14, 2014, 09:19:46 AM
You are right. However our forwards were MIA quite a bit as well. Should be an interesting summer. As I said before hope Buzz has his first 13 scholiie player team next season, but I'm not holding my breath.
Mediocre and even poor play, especially on offense, by bigs can be overcome by great guard play.
Poor play by the guards is very difficult to overcome even by very good bigs because guards control the ball, the flow and everything else that has anything to do with the offense.
Quote from: The Love House on March 14, 2014, 09:43:03 AM
Agreed. One season will not take Buzz off the radar. Let's not forget that TC had only 1 NCAA win in his last 5 years at MU, yet apparently his previous 'body of work' was enough to land him the single greatest coaching job in the college world - "It's Indiana! It's Indiana!"
...err, wait, was I trying to prove that ADs are NOT dumb?? Nevermind.
This, inevitably, will turn into a TC/Buzz pissing match but Crean was the exact right hire for Indiana at the time regardless of the lack of recent NCAA success.
The Hoosiers needed a builder. Needed someone to preach the right principles (who cares about following them). Needed someone with herculean and bombastic "energy" to rally a sleeping fanbase. The next guy they hire in two years (Stevens) is the one who will elevate the program to the level they expect to reside in consistently.
It's similar with Buzz. He's the guy an AD will hire after someone has built a program to stability. He's the guy to take it up a notch and a season like MU just had will not diminish one ounce of what Buzz had done his first five seasons. It's when you don't think a coach is wanted nor will leave that, as a fanbase, you better be wary of a departure happening.
Quote from: keefe on March 14, 2014, 04:43:43 AM
A hallmark of good scientific practice is to experiment with different hypotheses. You are correct that our starting guard play was found wanting. And found wanting. And found wanting. And found wanting.
+100000 - - This is where the frustration lies for many, and where the notion of Buzz being stubborn takes root....he REFUSED to ever change course significantly in the backcourt - and a backcourt at least at PG - that showed him he was going to get little to no production/purpose for being on the floor. He made 1, 3 point shot for the year...I mean how in God's name do you not think you can help/upgrade your team by at least giving the freshman who shoots 81% from FT Line (usually indicative of being a good shooter elsewhere), 3 or 4 games of the same long leash Derrick got - full 20 minute halves of playing time...32+ minutes a game...and just freaking SEE what happens. Was evident to anyone with a shred of basketball knowledge that the team wasn't going to make NCAA as of early January...if a change wasn't made...so here we sit...NIT bound...and never got any data on what could have been....although starting Burton last night was a step in right direction....but why did he not get major minutes all conference season long??
AD's are going to look at 5 straight NCAA appearances, Sweet 16, sweet 16, elite 8, 69-39 in the Big East, 139 wins in 6 years. The only people in the entire college basketball world who think Buzz (A) is on a seat that is remotely warm, (B) suddenly got stupid, (C) isn't capable of taking a team deep at any time, (D) had anything other than an off year are some denizens of the Marquette message boards. And Badger fans, hoping MU is dumb enough to listen to the few unhappy people, diminishing their in-state rival.
It was a bad year. Reasons abound. Bury it, learn from it, move on.
I'm not worried about Buzz leaving. I worry about his coaching and recruiting. He is responsible for the team period. It seemed that the player development was very poor this year... almost going backwards. It's disturbing why he didn't play the best talent, lock in on a rotation and let them develop. It seemed like he was clueless too often and the team was disorganized. I think the players were as confused as the fans.
Quote from: willie warrior on March 14, 2014, 06:35:18 AM
Pass the Buzz mushrooms, Wadesworld.
Hey good answer to the question Willie. Can always count on some great insight out of you.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 14, 2014, 09:04:31 AM
IMO, there is talent on this team and very good talent. The problem is that some positions, especially in college ball, the talent is paramount for success. Or another way to put it, we can have a ton of talent in three or four positions, but if it isn't there in the most important position, then it becomes a tough go.
Imagine a talented offensive line and wr's, but the QB is average at best...eventually you need the QB to make some plays.
Fair answer. When there are such big deficiencies at such important positions, it takes away some productivity from the other players. I still don't see "very good talent" outside of 2 players (Gardner and Todd) on the roster. Jamil has physical talent, but has never shown an ability to bring it out for more than about 15 minutes in a game (and in the last 4 games, he showed it for about 15 minutes total). Deonte has talent but also huge deficiencies, so at this point it is more potential than talent. That is the
one area where Buzz really messed up this season. Burton clearly could've helped score the ball on a team that struggled to score the ball a lot of times. Other than that, what else can he change that makes the team better?
Juan is not overly talented (this is all relative to a Big East level of basketball). Derrick is not overly talented. Jake is not overly talented. Steve is not overly talented (at least not while injured). Dawson has potential, but at this point is not overly talented. OTule is not overly talented. JJJ has potential, but at this point is not overly talented. There is a lack of basketball talent on the roster.
Need guards who can spread the d or/and finish at the rim. Teams were allowed to sag off our pg essentially playing 4 on 5 on offense. Can't win that way in big boy basketball.
Quote from: tower912 on March 14, 2014, 10:13:43 AM
AD's are going to look at 5 straight NCAA appearances, Sweet 16, sweet 16, elite 8, 69-39 in the Big East, 139 wins in 6 years. The only people in the entire college basketball world who think Buzz (A) is on a seat that is remotely warm, (B) suddenly got stupid, (C) isn't capable of taking a team deep at any time, (D) had anything other than an off year are some denizens of the Marquette message boards. And Badger fans, hoping MU is dumb enough to listen to the few unhappy people, diminishing their in-state rival.
It was a bad year. Reasons abound. Bury it, learn from it, move on.
I agree with you on A through D. But that wasn't my original point. I have to believe that the cause of the annual angst many here suffered about Buzz leaving, especially for UT, is now on the back burner. Which is not to say he won't become a hot commodity once more in the future through renewed success at Marquette.
As a two-time resident of the Republic of Texas I can assure you that were Mr Patterson to hire Buzz Williams today we would hear the Austin lynch mobs from Seattle.
I think this year highlighted many of Buzz' less flattering characteristics and should give some AD's pause. Let's face it: Al McGuire could only have coached at a place like Marquette, St John's, or the Little Sisters of the Poor. He would have been a terrible fit at most campuses simply because he was eccentric. The same holds true for Buzz Williams.
Like all of us, Buzz can continue to grow in his profession. This season, like each of the five others at Marquette, is his responsibility. As you say, let's hope he invests some time in reflection and introspection and learns from the past 6 months.
Quote from: Ners on March 14, 2014, 10:10:28 AM
+100000 - - This is where the frustration lies for many, and where the notion of Buzz being stubborn takes root....he REFUSED to ever change course significantly in the backcourt - and a backcourt at least at PG - that showed him he was going to get little to no production/purpose for being on the floor. He made 1, 3 point shot for the year...I mean how in God's name do you not think you can help/upgrade your team by at least giving the freshman who shoots 81% from FT Line (usually indicative of being a good shooter elsewhere), 3 or 4 games of the same long leash Derrick got - full 20 minute halves of playing time...32+ minutes a game...and just freaking SEE what happens. Was evident to anyone with a shred of basketball knowledge that the team wasn't going to make NCAA as of early January...if a change wasn't made...so here we sit...NIT bound...and never got any data on what could have been....although starting Burton last night was a step in right direction....but why did he not get major minutes all conference season long??
Your timeline is quite a bit off, they were in contention for a spot in February, they didn't fall out until March. I also don't think you change up in the tourny about X, a team you've beaten before. Having said that, St John's would have been the perfect game to see what you have.
I do think Burton could have had more minutes throughout the conference season, but he probably got the right amount of minutes that his performance earned and endurance allowed. I would have liked to have seen an additional 5 minutes on average from Burton, but I don't think it would have been a huge difference maker.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 14, 2014, 09:04:31 AM
IMO, there is talent on this team and very good talent. The problem is that some positions, especially in college ball, the talent is paramount for success. Or another way to put it, we can have a ton of talent in three or four positions, but if it isn't there in the most important position, then it becomes a tough go.
Imagine a talented offensive line and wr's, but the QB is average at best...eventually you need the QB to make some plays.
Right on! This season mirror's the season when Diener got hurt. Hope Du. W or Hill can fill the spot next season. I think loyalty to Derrick aside, Buzz will have more options at the point next season. I know everyone is giving Buzz and Derrick a lot of heat and rightfully so for this season, but to me Jamil was the bigger disappointment.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 14, 2014, 01:06:06 PM
Right on! This season mirror's the season when Diener got hurt. Hope Du. W or Hill can fill the spot next season. I think loyalty to Derrick aside, Buzz will have more options at the point next season. I know everyone is giving Buzz and Derrick a lot of heat and rightfully so for this season, but to me Jamil was the bigger disappointment.
That season concluded with the Western Michigan debacle. Perhaps the most shameful moment in Marquette history.
so whats going to happen next year when the won lose record will be very close to this one?
One factor that hasn't been mentioned is the prohibition against JUCOs instituted by Pilarz/Williams. A core component of Buzz' success model at Marquette was to fill specific needs and add toughness through JUCO recruitment. The impact of Pilarz in this season and next cannot be discounted.
Quote from: Big Daddy Z on March 14, 2014, 02:26:34 PM
so whats going to happen next year when the won lose record will be very close to this one?
You'll come here on the board and post that you told us so a year ago.
Quote from: Big Daddy Z on March 14, 2014, 02:26:34 PM
so whats going to happen next year when the won lose record will be very close to this one?
Might be a little different. This years team was basically the same in game 32 as it was in game 1.
Next year, I think the record might be a little better, but it will be an ascending team as the season goes on. Will show a lot of promise for the following year.
Marquette isn't going to fire Buzz, nor should we.
But if we did, his phone would ring plenty. IMHO, he would be considered for every excellent, good and decent job out there, and would land one of the best.
Quote from: brandx on March 14, 2014, 02:44:16 PM
Might be a little different. This years team was basically the same in game 32 as it was in game 1.
Next year, I think the record might be a little better, but it will be an ascending team as the season goes on. Will show a lot of promise for the following year.
Next year will be very interesting. If, as the doomers (anti-slurpers?) are saying, Buzz learns nothing and simply runs out the upperclassman because he is "loyal" than this team will likely be at least the same, if not worse.
However, if you look at it from a minutes distribution standpoint, even if he plays Derrick, Juan, and Mayo 32 minutes each(NEVER going to happen) that still leaves 104 minutes to assign else where....he HAS to play younger players, there is no choice.
So I think the team will be better next year, the question is how talented are the underclassman truly and how much is Buzz willing to turn it over to them? If the underclassman are what we think they are, and Buzz gets the accountability he needs next years team
could be considerably better than this year.
Quote from: Big Daddy Z on March 14, 2014, 02:26:34 PM
so whats going to happen next year when the won lose record will be very close to this one?
Um ... Buzz would still be able to get a great job and you'd still be a douchebag?
Quote from: Big Daddy Z on March 14, 2014, 02:26:34 PM
so whats going to happen next year when the won lose record will be very close to this one?
oohh, I know what you are looking.....if that happens the day after the end of the season they will find Amelia Erhart's plane
I do not think there is an NBA player (maybe Burton) on this team. The team has talent, but it does not have top 25 team talent. That you can blame the roster on Buzz. The only team we lost to with lesser talent was Butler.
Quote from: keefe on March 14, 2014, 02:31:01 PM
One factor that hasn't been mentioned is the prohibition against JUCOs instituted by Pilarz/Williams. A core component of Buzz' success model at Marquette was to fill specific needs and add toughness through JUCO recruitment. The impact of Pilarz in this season and next cannot be discounted.
I have heard about this several times now. Can someone point me towards some evidence that this is true? We recruited McKay while Pilarz/Williams were around.
The only thing I remember was some comments about Jae Crowder not being academically qualified to come to Marquette....which were absolutely true. I appreciate what Crowder did but the man went to a non-accredited JUCO. When Buzz brought him he knew that there was no way that Jae would ever graduate before his eligibility wore out. Illegal? No. In line with Marquette's mission/values? Eh?
Quote from: Ners on March 14, 2014, 10:10:28 AM
+100000 - - This is where the frustration lies for many, and where the notion of Buzz being stubborn takes root....he REFUSED to ever change course significantly in the backcourt - and a backcourt at least at PG - that showed him he was going to get little to no production/purpose for being on the floor. He made 1, 3 point shot for the year...I mean how in God's name do you not think you can help/upgrade your team by at least giving the freshman who shoots 81% from FT Line (usually indicative of being a good shooter elsewhere), 3 or 4 games of the same long leash Derrick got - full 20 minute halves of playing time...32+ minutes a game...and just freaking SEE what happens. Was evident to anyone with a shred of basketball knowledge that the team wasn't going to make NCAA as of early January...if a change wasn't made...so here we sit...NIT bound...and never got any data on what could have been....although starting Burton last night was a step in right direction....but why did he not get major minutes all conference season long??
At this point it is time to move on my friend. Some will always disagree. It doesn't matter. The important point is that the coach learns from this. Starting Burton is a start. If he plays him more than Jake, Jamil and Derrick in the NIT that will be the next step. Last, we need to see more Dawson and some JJJ in the NIT. If this happens the learning process is well underway IMHO. If not, no need to discuss since essentially most on this board already know what needs to be done. It only frustrates everyone more to remind us what should have been months ago. Remember this is just a game. There are much bigger issues in life that many on this page face every day. Be thankful if this is your biggest issue in life. You are then very lucky.
Quote from: Class71 on March 14, 2014, 07:42:02 PM
At this point it is time to move on my friend. Some will always disagree. It doesn't matter. The important point is that the coach learns from this. Starting Burton is a start. If he plays him more than Jake, Jamil and Derrick in the NIT that will be the next step. Last, we need to see more Dawson and some JJJ in the NIT. If this happens the learning process is well underway IMHO. If not, no need to discuss since essentially most on this board already know what needs to be done. It only frustrates everyone more to remind us what should have been months ago. Remember this is just a game. There are much bigger issues in life that many on this page face every day. Be thankful if this is your biggest issue in life. You are then very lucky.
Well said 71 and duly noted.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 14, 2014, 07:15:25 PM
I have heard about this several times now. Can someone point me towards some evidence that this is true? We recruited McKay while Pilarz/Williams were around.
The only thing I remember was some comments about Jae Crowder not being academically qualified to come to Marquette....which were absolutely true. I appreciate what Crowder did but the man went to a non-accredited JUCO. When Buzz brought him he knew that there was no way that Jae would ever graduate before his eligibility wore out. Illegal? No. In line with Marquette's mission/values? Eh?
Pilarz/Williams was a disaster in many ways that go well beyond the basketball program. But Jae Crowder came to Marquette to become a professional basketball player. Just as Warrior Chick went to MU to become an accountant. And 4ever to become a dentist. Each is now plying their craft successfully and contributing to society thanks to the skills they developed at Marquette. I see no disconnect with Marquette's mission in any of that.
Quote from: keefe on March 14, 2014, 08:42:11 PM
Pilarz/Williams was a disaster in many ways that go well beyond the basketball program. But Jae Crowder came to Marquette to become a professional basketball player. Just as Warrior Chick went to MU to become an accountant. And 4ever to become a dentist. Each is now plying their craft successfully and contributing to society thanks to the skills they developed at Marquette. I see no disconnect with Marquette's mission in any of that.
Well said, as long as they can function as a citizen and productive member of society after their bball days are over (I.e. MU is still providing them an academic education), I agree wholeheartedly
Quote from: Bleuteaux on March 14, 2014, 08:49:47 PM
Well said, as long as they can function as a citizen and productive member of society after their bball days are over (I.e. MU is still providing them an academic education), I agree wholeheartedly
Did Harvard College fail Bill Gates and should he return to Cambridge to complete his studies? Accomplishment is measured in many ways.
Quote from: keefe on March 14, 2014, 10:16:45 PM
Did Harvard College fail Bill Gates and should he return to Cambridge to complete his studies? Accomplishment is measured in many ways.
Right. I agree.
I do think NCAA schools should be doing more to provide athletes financial literacy, job skills for a post NBA career, etc. more real world education. I didn't mean advanced calculus.
Quote from: Bleuteaux on March 14, 2014, 10:46:33 PM
Right. I agree.
I do think NCAA schools should be doing more to provide athletes financial literacy, job skills for a post NBA career, etc. more real world education. I didn't mean advanced calculus.
Well, if today's college athlete leaves campus unable to solve differential equations then his college has failed him in ways beyond how to gauge when to pull up for a jumper on a fast break
Quote from: keefe on March 14, 2014, 01:30:43 PM
That season concluded with the Western Michigan debacle. Perhaps the most shameful moment in Marquette history.
Wrong-o Crusader-Boy. You spent too much time buzzing around battlefields if you think Western Michigan was the low point in our history.
The most shameful moment in Marquette history was in March 1978, when we lost to Miami of Ohio. We were defending national champions!
Quote from: dgies9156 on March 15, 2014, 08:27:23 AM
Wrong-o Crusader-Boy. You spent too much time buzzing around battlefields if you think Western Michigan was the low point in our history.
The most shameful moment in Marquette history was in March 1978, when we lost to Miami of Ohio. We were defending national champions!
Disagree. The most shameful moment was a 19-12 loss to Lawrence in Appleton WI in 1917, we only got the ball in the peach basket six times. I was so angry, I remember starting a thread on Scoop calling for Ralph Risch's head. The beat writer for the Sentinel was so bad that year we only got coverage when there was no news from the Western front in the Great War.
Quote from: Stone Cold on March 14, 2014, 04:17:24 AM
We may be over analyzing this season and Buzz. We needed better guard play and didn't have it. Period. Still got 9 wins in conference and improved until we sort of gave in at the end.
I'll say! "Sort of giving in at the end?" Four losses in a row to finish says a lot.
Quote from: dgies9156 on March 15, 2014, 08:27:23 AM
Wrong-o Crusader-Boy. You spent too much time buzzing around battlefields if you think Western Michigan was the low point in our history.
The most shameful moment in Marquette history was in March 1978, when we lost to Miami of Ohio. We were defending national champions!
Miami of Ohio. That wasn't the most shameful moment. But it was a defining moment. And I think most of us knew that our doubts about Hank succeeding Al were confirmed that day.
Denny Crum wanted the job but loyalty to the trusted lieutenant won out over cold rational logic. Crum went on to win two National Titles. Marquette began a death spiral that ended in Great Midwest. Marquette could have sustained the tradition of national prominence established by Al. Moral courage manifests itself in many ways.
Quote from: keefe on March 15, 2014, 01:49:09 PM
Miami of Ohio. That wasn't the most shameful moment. But it was a defining moment. And I think most of us knew that our doubts about Hank succeeding Al were confirmed that day.
Denny Crum wanted the job but loyalty to the trusted lieutenant won out over cold rational logic. Crum went on to win two National Titles. Marquette began a death spiral that ended in Great Midwest. Marquette could have sustained the tradition of national prominence established by Al. Moral courage manifests itself in many ways.
I don't want to get started on this again, but I agree totally with you. I was there when it happened and the Hank decision was a poor one. Like North Carolina letting Bill Gutheridge follow Dean. Neither worked.
Miami was shameful because we should have known better and we lost to what today would be a 16 seed.
Ny the way, what year did you graduate?
Quote from: wadesworld on March 14, 2014, 01:31:17 AM
Mark Few has gone to as many Sweet 16s in his career as Buzz had consecutively until tonight. He also has less Elite Eights than Buzz Williams, and Buzz Williams has been coaching for a much shorter time (and never had a 1 seed in the NCAA Tournament because his team plays absolutely nobody worth noting in the regular season).
People here are absolutely silly. If this were a Kentucky board everyone here would be asking to have Shaka Smart take over for John Calipari.
Buzz has had one bad year in his 6 so far. Shucks. Kentucky, UCLA, Indiana, and North Carolina have all had down years in that time. And we sure as sh!t aren't a blue blood program like those programs are. Roy Williams and John Calipari can't recruit talent and can't coach kids up. Allowing a team to fall to NIT level for one year? Unacceptable.
Who on this team has talent? (I get that it's on Buzz to recruit the talent, I'm just wondering what talent you see, because clearly you see more than I do.) Juan had some cool mix tapes from high school. Todd has an older brother who plays in the NBA. Jamil is athletic. Jake can hit an uncontested 3 pointer. Deonte can put the ball in the basket. Chris is 24 years old. Davante has a vertical of almost 7 inches. Dawson makes a few highlight real plays sometimes. JuJuan was ranked highly. Steve went to Simeon. Derrick can throw a football.
There are a *couple* of players on the roster that have talent. A couple doesn't get you into the dance (unless you play in the Horizon League). Everyone on the roster can do *one or two aspects* of basketball well. Some of our younger guys ooze with *potential.* But where is the current talent? What 5 man lineup plus 3 bench guys can you put together and say "these guys should beat Villinova, Creighton, San Diego State, New Mexico, Ohio State?" Maybe if we can take JJJ, Burton, Duane Wilson, and Dawson of 3 years from now and Todd of a year from now and Davante and healthy Steve from 2 years from now. But this year's roster? The fact of the matter is "We ain't no good."
My overall point is that there are coaches who have had the same level of success (or more) as we have had with as much or less talent than we have had.
If we are recruiting guys with no talent, then that's a problem. Lack of talent is an excuse, IMO. A bad excuse. A cop out.
Quote from: dgies9156 on March 15, 2014, 10:20:57 PM
Like North Carolina letting Bill Gutheridge follow Dean. Neither worked.
Miami was shameful because we should have known better and we lost to what today would be a 16 seed.
Which they compounded by bringing in Doherty.
Despite apologists who want to blame the officiating Miami should not have been within sniffing distance of Marquette. That loss was stunning in its magnitude, impact, and for what it foretold.
Will the real Matt Doherty please stand up!
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Buzz needs to be a better team builder, which means recruitting the right player and cutting down on transfers. However, people have got to realize how hard it is to be consistantly good. Two years ago Villanova was not in the NCAA tournament. Georgetown missed the tournament three years ago and again this year. This was a very odd year. Losing Blue easily costs us 6 games. The loss would not have hurt as much, if Duane had not got hurt. I am thinking Duane injury cost us 4 of the 6 games we would of won, if Blue stayed. I am not sure if McKay would of made a differnce, but his transfer was a bad omen. Throw in Taylor's slow recovery and there are plenty of uncontrollable things that hurt this team. We played 6 overtime games and I may be wrong, but I think we rallied to send all 6 into overtime. We would be on the bubble today, if we had went 4-2 in overtime vs 2-4. 5-1 and we would definately be in. As bad as the ending was, we really were not that far away. We probably would have been in the NCAA tournament this year, if our free throw shooting had improved over last year instead of getting worse. Gardner's percentage drop 7% and he often missed a free throw in the close games we lost. Jamil's free throw shooting also dropped. Somethimes seasons are lucky and sometimes they are not. In past year's Buzz always won a game or two on last second shots. This year MU hits two 3/4 court shots that do not count. I think that sums up how the year went.
Quote from: bilsu on March 16, 2014, 08:55:06 AM
Buzz needs to be a better team builder, which means recruitting the right player and cutting down on transfers. However, people have got to realize how hard it is to be consistantly good. Two years ago Villanova was not in the NCAA tournament. Georgetown missed the tournament three years ago and again this year. This was a very odd year. Losing Blue easily costs us 6 games. The loss would not have hurt as much, if Duane had not got hurt. I am thinking Duane injury cost us 4 of the 6 games we would of won, if Blue stayed. I am not sure if McKay would of made a differnce, but his transfer was a bad omen. Throw in Taylor's slow recovery and there are plenty of uncontrollable things that hurt this team. We played 6 overtime games and I may be wrong, but I think we rallied to send all 6 into overtime. We would be on the bubble today, if we had went 4-2 in overtime vs 2-4. 5-1 and we would definately be in. As bad as the ending was, we really were not that far away. We probably would have been in the NCAA tournament this year, if our free throw shooting had improved over last year instead of getting worse. Gardner's percentage drop 7% and he often missed a free throw in the close games we lost. Jamil's free throw shooting also dropped. Somethimes seasons are lucky and sometimes they are not. In past year's Buzz always won a game or two on last second shots. This year MU hits two 3/4 court shots that do not count. I think that sums up how the year went.
There are a lot of excuses in this paragraph.
But there also are a lot of facts.
Pessimists see the excuses, optimists see the facts. Pragmatists -- which is what I like to think I am -- see some of both. Several shades of gray, rather than black and white.
How do we know if Buzz would have played Duane any more than he played JJJ, Dawson and even (most of the season) Deonte? Blue leaving was a surprise, but good programs lose players early; if we want to sign 5-stars, we are going to lose some of them before their 4 years are up. If the "basketball gods" reacted differently, why would we have a better chance to win the four OT games we lost than to have lost the two OT games we won? Jamil's FT shooting was only a small part of his lack of contribution this season; many assumed he'd take over the Novak-Lazar-Jimmy-Jae leadership role, but he was a poser and that really killed us.
In the end, as is almost always the case, our record is what it should have been.
Quote from: MU82 on March 16, 2014, 10:07:37 AM
In the end, as is almost always the case, our record is what it should have been.
Actually, perhaps the most concise summary of this season. We ended where we belonged. Sitting home is justified.
Now that it is over...can someone do me a favor and tell me what are the titles of the two rap songs it seems that MU trots out to to start the home games and at the beginning of the second half?...I enjoyed them.
Nice beat and a ring to them...I want to get them on my iphone.
Thanks in advance ;D for a reply.
Quote from: MUHoopsFan2 on March 17, 2014, 02:53:28 AM
Now that it is over...can someone do me a favor and tell me what are the titles of the two rap songs it seems that MU trots out to to start the home games and at the beginning of the second half?...I enjoyed them.
Nice beat and a ring to them...I want to get them on my iphone.
Thanks in advance ;D for a reply.
Beginning of Game Playlist:
Alma Mater
Remember the Titans
Ring Out Ahoya
National Anthem
"Sandstorm" - Darude
"Where the Streets Have No Name" (Re-mix) - U2
"Thunderstruck" - AC/DC
Quote from: Benny B on March 17, 2014, 10:49:02 AM
Beginning of Game Playlist:
Alma Mater
Remember the Titans
Ring Out Ahoya
National Anthem
"Sandstorm" - Darude
"Where the Streets Have No Name" (Re-mix) - U2
"Thunderstruck" - AC/DC
Benny B on the turntables
Quote from: Benny B on March 17, 2014, 10:49:02 AM
Beginning of Game Playlist:
Alma Mater
Remember the Titans
Ring Out Ahoya
National Anthem
"Sandstorm" - Darude
"Where the Streets Have No Name" (Re-mix) - U2
"Thunderstruck" - AC/DC
Overtime tips, "Welcome to the Jungle" - Guns N Roses
Apparently Buzz's phone still works?
Quote from: wadesworld on March 17, 2014, 01:27:54 PM
Apparently Buzz's phone still works?
Sure. His land lines to the has beens and never weres are just fine. I am guessing his connectivity to the masters of the universe has gone cold. There is a difference, of course.
Quote from: Benny B on March 17, 2014, 10:49:02 AM
Beginning of Game Playlist:
Remember the Titans
"Sandstorm" - Darude
"Where the Streets Have No Name" (Re-mix) - U2
"Thunderstruck" - AC/DC
Who the hell picked these songs, Father DiUlio?
Quote from: The Love House on March 17, 2014, 03:15:15 PM
Who the hell picked these songs, Father DiUlio?
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Quote from: keefe on March 17, 2014, 02:55:32 PM
Sure. His land lines to the has beens and never weres are just fine. I am guessing his connectivity to the masters of the universe has gone cold. There is a difference, of course.
I guess that raises the question, has he ever been rumored to be going to anywhere other than the "has beens" and the "weres?" I mean, he's been rumored with SMU who up until this year has been awful and still missed the NCAA Tournament this year, Oklahoma who at the time was awful and had been for a few years, Texas A&M who is Texas A&M, and anyone else really? Kentucky, Duke, Syracuse, UCLA, heck, even Texas have yet to come calling. I don't think the names we will hear this off season will be any different from the names we've heard coming off of consecutive Sweet 16s.
Quote from: dgies9156 on March 15, 2014, 10:20:57 PM
I don't want to get started on this again, but I agree totally with you. I was there when it happened and the Hank decision was a poor one. Like North Carolina letting Bill Gutheridge follow Dean. Neither worked.
Miami was shameful because we should have known better and we lost to what today would be a 16 seed.
Ny the way, what year did you graduate?
I'm coming late to this party, but: Al, then Hank; Dean, then Bill; Tom, then Buzz? Hmmmmmm.
Quote from: wadesworld on March 17, 2014, 04:15:29 PM
I guess that raises the question, has he ever been rumored to be going to anywhere other than the "has beens" and the "weres?" I mean, he's been rumored with SMU who up until this year has been awful and still missed the NCAA Tournament this year, Oklahoma who at the time was awful and had been for a few years, Texas A&M who is Texas A&M, and anyone else really? Kentucky, Duke, Syracuse, UCLA, heck, even Texas have yet to come calling. I don't think the names we will hear this off season will be any different from the names we've heard coming off of consecutive Sweet 16s.
Frankly, I am not personally aware if any of the elites have offered in the past. Mike Hunt wrote that Buzz was offered by an NBA team so the man clearly has been an attractive commodity and there is no reason to think some of the top programs have not expressed interest. We do know UCLA had him on the list but then so was Stevens, et al. I just don't think he has the cachet of last March.
Quote from: keefe on March 19, 2014, 03:58:27 AM
Frankly, I am not personally aware if any of the elites have offered in the past. Mike Hunt wrote that Buzz was offered by an NBA team so the man clearly has been an attractive commodity and there is no reason to think some of the top programs have not expressed interest. We do know UCLA had him on the list but then so was Stevens, et al. I just don't think he has the cachet of last March.
You are correct, though I am fairly sure Texas, along with much of the Big 12 also has him on a short list, should they ever be in need. I could see Oklahoma and OK State also expressing interest.
Not elite programs, but prestigious enough for MU fans to worry.
Quote from: Bleuteaux on March 19, 2014, 09:47:54 AM
You are correct, though I am fairly sure Texas, along with much of the Big 12 also has him on a short list, should they ever be in need. I could see Oklahoma and OK State also expressing interest.
Not elite programs, but prestigious enough for MU fans to worry.
I don't recall the details but OU offered Buzz after they let Capel go. Buzz tuning them down gave hope to a lot of tortured souls here.
While I wouldn't label them as elite in basketball but OU is a major force in college athletics. I remember when Wayman Tisdale considered Marquette long and hard before staying home and playing for Tubbs.