For private schools.
Obviously does not affect D1 schools since they are already D1. This is obviously for schools like Dominican that are having kids like Diamond Stone and D. Wilson come through their doors and competing with the likes of Mayville.
Thoughts?
Those rich brats at the private schools need to be punished.
Dominican is really struggling for students but not for basketball players. I have always chided some of their faculty & staff (my wife taught there in the early 2000s) that they should play up. But can you play up in 1 sport and not all others? DHS does not have strong athletics across the board. I would imagine some other private schools are like this, they excel in a specialty but flail in most others.
Quote from: The Lens on March 13, 2014, 09:11:37 AM
Dominican is really struggling for students but not for basketball players. I have always chided some of their faculty & staff (my wife taught there in the early 2000s) that they should play up. But can you play up in 1 sport and not all others? DHS does not have strong athletics across the board. I would imagine some other private schools are like this, they excel in a specialty but flail in most others.
True enough, their football program is horrid, but they dominate in hoops every year.
Illinois has this rule.
As a grad of a Catholic high school, I can kind of see both sides.
Part of me would like to watch Dominican play a D2 or D3 team, because I think they would compete just fine, and it'd be fun to watch Stone and Co. take on the best of the best. But is it fair?
While its true private schools can "recruit" to a certain extent, I think the effects of this are exaggerated. The public high schools in the region where I grew up in Wisconsin also have open enrollment, so students can go from one district to the next that have reciprocal agreements, and it often happens, for sports, social reasons, family or other factors.
I could live with a multiplier, but I think 1.65 is a little heavy. A reasonable compromise would be 1.25
For all sports? Basketball only?
This reeks of the kind of desperation and bitterness I remember experiencing against Catholic schools from public schools in NE Wisconsin...
Sure private schools can recruit but conversely public schools can implement their "system" in 3rd grade and have all coaches march in unison grades 3-12. Plenty of small schools have had power houses like Cuba City, etc. Every school has some sort of an advantage, it's who actually steps up and makes use of their advantage.
If they really tried schools like Dominican and Marquette High could get many more players than they do now. If the ratio goes to 1.65 I would hope they ditch any self imposed restrictions. 1.15-1.25 seems fair.
Quote from: The Lens on March 13, 2014, 09:11:37 AM
Dominican is really struggling for students but not for basketball players. I have always chided some of their faculty & staff (my wife taught there in the early 2000s) that they should play up. But can you play up in 1 sport and not all others? DHS does not have strong athletics across the board. I would imagine some other private schools are like this, they excel in a specialty but flail in most others.
California you can. In fact what they are doing now is you can actually be in a league with other schools, but when the playoffs start one school may be in a completely different division than another school from the same league. It's very bizarre. TeamX can win the Patriot league and go to the CIF playoffs in Division 2 while TeamY can finish 8th in the Patriot league and go to the CIF playoffs in Division 2b as an example.
The old days of just having simple divisions is over around here....until the change it again.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2014, 09:49:27 AM
California you can. In fact what they are doing now is you can actually be in a league with other schools, but when the playoffs start one school may be in a completely different division than another school from the same league. It's very bizarre. TeamX can win the Patriot league and go to the CIF playoffs in Division 2 while TeamY can finish 8th in the Patriot league and go to the CIF playoffs in Division 2b as an example.
The old days of just having simple divisions is over around here....until the change it again.
I don't know what it's like now, but this is what my Catholic high school went through routinely for sports -- at least football. That was 10+ years ago though, could have changed.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2014, 09:49:27 AM
California you can. In fact what they are doing now is you can actually be in a league with other schools, but when the playoffs start one school may be in a completely different division than another school from the same league. It's very bizarre. TeamX can win the Patriot league and go to the CIF playoffs in Division 2 while TeamY can finish 8th in the Patriot league and go to the CIF playoffs in Division 2b as an example.
The old days of just having simple divisions is over around here....until the change it again.
Same with Wisco. My high school was in a conference of mostly D3 and D4 schools, but when it came time for the postseason we were in D5.
Some of that is just geography. We were a Catholic school, and every other school within a 45 minute drive of us was public, and bigger.
No difference in public or private schools in Connecticut. Conferences contain both public & private high schools and playoff divisions are based strictly on school size.
Ohio is struggling with the same issue, and the're slated to have a vote within the next couple of months. They've tried to address it many times in the past, but have never passed any new rules. I think they might make a change this time.
They're approaching it differently, though. Instead of using a general multiplier, they're proposing that each private school designate a "feeder" school. Then, for any athlete on a team that is not from that feeder school, they will count as more than one student for the school's enrollment purposes. I believe the number is +2 in football; +5 in volleyball, basketball, baseball and softball; and +6 in soccer. They're not addressing individual sports. So, if you've got 7 kids on your basketball roster that aren't from your feeder school, they'll add an additional 35 kids to your enrollment figure to determine which division you should be in.
The good thing about this is that it actually addresses and distinguishes which sports programs the private school might "recruit" in, and doesn't punish the others. For example, my son's school is totally dominant in girl's soccer and girls come from all over the area to play there. So this would affect them (actually it won't because they're already D1), but not other programs. I think it's better than a general multiplier.
One thing I don't like about it is that it ignores the fact that there are several parochial schools that are feeders into many of the high schools. I think the rule should be tweaked to take that into consideration. The nearest private HS to us is in a suburb that has at least six parochial schools. The HS will have to designate one of them as the feeder school, and will then be "penalized" for kids from the other schools. More than 50% of the kids from my son's grade school went there (the rest are scattered through various public and private schools), but it won't be considered the feeder school. I think the high schools should be allowed to designate multiple feeder schools based upon a number of factors including proximity and the percentage of kids from that school that attend the HS.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on March 13, 2014, 10:07:25 AM
Ohio is struggling with the same issue, and the're slated to have a vote within the next couple of months. They've tried to address it many times in the past, but have never passed any new rules. I think they might make a change this time.
They're approaching it differently, though. Instead of using a general multiplier, they're proposing that each private school designate a "feeder" school. Then, for any athlete on a team that is not from that feeder school, they will count as more than one student for the school's enrollment purposes. I believe the number is +2 in football; +5 in volleyball, basketball, baseball and softball; and +6 in soccer. They're not addressing individual sports. So, if you've got 7 kids on your basketball roster that aren't from your feeder school, they'll add an additional 35 kids to your enrollment figure to determine which division you should be in.
The good thing about this is that it actually addresses and distinguishes which sports programs the private school might "recruit" in, and doesn't punish the others. For example, my son's school is totally dominant in girl's soccer and girls come from all over the area to play there. So this would affect them (actually it won't because they're already D1), but not other programs. I think it's better than a general multiplier.
One thing I don't like about it is that it ignores the fact that there are several parochial schools that are feeders into many of the high schools. I think the rule should be tweaked to take that into consideration. The nearest private HS to us is in a suburb that has at least six parochial schools. The HS will have to designate one of them as the feeder school, and will then be "penalized" for kids from the other schools. More than 50% of the kids from my son's grade school went there (the rest are scattered through various public and private schools), but it won't be considered the feeder school. I think the high schools should be allowed to designate multiple feeder schools based upon a number of factors including proximity and the percentage of kids from that school that attend the HS.
I was gonna say, that might make sense in a traditional public school system where there is a clear chain of elementary-middle-high schools but Catholic schools are way different. My hometown had 5 parish K-8 schools that fed into one Catholic high school. How do you account for that?
Quote from: The Lens on March 13, 2014, 09:11:37 AM
Dominican is really struggling for students but not for basketball players.
A co-worker friend/Dominican alum spoke to some DHS people a week ago .. apparently they are preparing for a significant influx of students next year. (Vouchers?)
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on March 13, 2014, 10:12:01 AM
A co-worker friend/Dominican alum spoke to some DHS people a week ago .. apparently they are preparing for a significant influx of students next year. (Vouchers?)
Yep. Vouchers are being rolled out statewide next year. Previously, your school had to be in MPS district boundaries to qualify. Being in Whitefish Bay, Dominican was just outside the boundary.
This is gonna have a huge effect on suburban Milwaukee private schools, and I think for the better (despite my generally liberal tendencies).
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2014, 09:49:27 AM
In fact what they are doing now is you can actually be in a league with other schools, but when the playoffs start one school may be in a completely different division than another school from the same league. It's very bizarre. TeamX can win the Patriot league and go to the CIF playoffs in Division 2 while TeamY can finish 8th in the Patriot league and go to the CIF playoffs in Division 2b as an example.
That happens here too. The conference that has many of the Catholic schools in the Cleveland area has teams that are D1 and teams that are D2. Not sure if there are any D3s in there. They play in the same conference, but then play in different divisions in the state tournament.
Let me put in my 25 cents.
As you know I teach teach at Racine Park (Large Public School) and I have a close friend that is an AD and football coach at Brookfield Academy (Small Private school).
The first thing that many need to know about Wisconsin schooling is that any student can go to any school as long as they provide the transportation; this includes public schools (School Choice). In theory you can have a student from Kenosha go to School at Madison Memorial as long as they provided their own transportation.
School choice has been used in many schools as an easy for public schools to effectively recruit. In fact we have seen this rule used in Racine Unified. Much to the Chagrin of the AD at Park HS, much of the talented 8th grade boys want to attend Case because it is known as the basketball school. These students are effectively recruited and offered boundary exemptions and choice rules to get them into Case and not Park.
Now, 85 percent of the private schools in the state are small day schools or super small christian and lutheran schools that have to face the challenge of not only getting students to pay tuition to a school, but to pull from a group of students that are more academically or religious focused than sports focused. Often times these schools have smaller rosters than the same teams in their own divisions, none of which went through any type of feeder program.
As a public school teacher, I would urge any AD to vote this down!!!
On a sidebar let me tell you how this petition came to be.
This petition came from the president of the Six Rivers conference, which is a large consortium of school South West of Madison. This includes perennial girls basketball power Barneveld (Public enrollment 135) who lost to Wisconsin Rapids Assumption (Private Enrollment 165) in the D5 finals. Of course this small town got all up in arms that a Catholic school beat their pride and joy in a championship games. So instead of saying "hey we lost good game" it became "Assumption obviously should not be in our division so lets change the standards and than we will be state champs."
This assumption must obviously dominate in every sport due to their recruiting efforts right? well their football team obviously consisting of ever ringer from the middle wisconsin river valley was a stellar 3-7 with a playoff blow out loss by 40 points. But what about boys basketball? They finished 7-7 in the power conference known as the Marawood South.
The point to this long post?
We are essentially making a rule because of jealousy at the following schools.
WISCO, Dominican Hoops, Aquinas Hoops, Fondy Springs Football, Regis football, St. Cats.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on March 13, 2014, 10:12:01 AM
A co-worker friend/Dominican alum spoke to some DHS people a week ago .. apparently they are preparing for a significant influx of students next year. (Vouchers?)
I think these are fools gold to DHS. What they need to do is figure out a way to strengthen themselves among Northshore residents. Northshore families seem to consider MUHS / DSHA or their very good public school. It's public vs private with one option for each. DHS never really seems to be in the conversation. A catholic co-ed education should have a lot of appeal but it gets overlooked. The vouchers will be short term money but what is needed is to grow the endowment and you need to get into the pocket books of the Northshore now to do that.
I read a related article recently that said, I believe in Illinois, if a team showed it couldn't compete in the division they were bumped up to based on the multiplier (basically by having multiple crappy seasons in a row), they could apply for an expection to the rule.
Love the private schools recruit talk. What a joke. Public schools are just as guilty and like Lens says the public schools put their system in for the kids to run as early as they can.
I went to a private school my entire life and my kids now go public so I have seen both sides.
Quote from: injuryBug on March 13, 2014, 12:46:36 PM
Love the private schools recruit talk. What a joke. Public schools are just as guilty and like Lens says the public schools put their system in for the kids to run as early as they can.
I went to a private school my entire life and my kids now go public so I have seen both sides.
Guys,
I can assure you the private schools have the grade school "club/select" programs that feed their program too. My son played on one. They gather all the kids from their feeder grade schools and hold tryouts. Its very common. In fact many start even earlier than the public schools. There is no advantage there.
Quote from: CoachesCorner on March 13, 2014, 12:55:54 PM
Guys,
I can assure you the private schools have the grade school "club/select" programs that feed their program too. My son played on one. They gather all the kids from their feeder grade schools and hold tryouts. Its very common. In fact many start even earlier than the public schools. There is no advantage there.
In some cases the parochial school feeder system was required because if the public school feeder system got a wiff that your kid was going to a parochial HS you never saw the court / field.
Public schools cannot recruit through open enrollment. First, there must be space available. Second, if there is space available, selection is a lottery. Third, for school districts that take in nonresident students, they generally do so in the early grades. I've defended districts in this process.
I don't know the answer, but when Dominican, Pius, WI and Milwaukee Lutheran can offer free tuition to students (via Milwaukee Parental Choice Program), it will be very difficult for similarly-sized public schools to compete in some sports, particulary sports in which African-Americans from Milwaukee truly excel.
Quote from: KenoshaWarrior on March 13, 2014, 10:40:59 AM
Let me put in my 25 cents.
As you know I teach teach at Racine Park (Large Public School) and I have a close friend that is an AD and football coach at Brookfield Academy (Small Private school).
The first thing that many need to know about Wisconsin schooling is that any student can go to any school as long as they provide the transportation; this includes public schools (School Choice). In theory you can have a student from Kenosha go to School at Madison Memorial as long as they provided their own transportation.
School choice has been used in many schools as an easy for public schools to effectively recruit. In fact we have seen this rule used in Racine Unified. Much to the Chagrin of the AD at Park HS, much of the talented 8th grade boys want to attend Case because it is known as the basketball school. These students are effectively recruited and offered boundary exemptions and choice rules to get them into Case and not Park.
Now, 85 percent of the private schools in the state are small day schools or super small christian and lutheran schools that have to face the challenge of not only getting students to pay tuition to a school, but to pull from a group of students that are more academically or religious focused than sports focused. Often times these schools have smaller rosters than the same teams in their own divisions, none of which went through any type of feeder program.
As a public school teacher, I would urge any AD to vote this down!!!
On a sidebar let me tell you how this petition came to be.
This petition came from the president of the Six Rivers conference, which is a large consortium of school South West of Madison. This includes perennial girls basketball power Barneveld (Public enrollment 135) who lost to Wisconsin Rapids Assumption (Private Enrollment 165) in the D5 finals. Of course this small town got all up in arms that a Catholic school beat their pride and joy in a championship games. So instead of saying "hey we lost good game" it became "Assumption obviously should not be in our division so lets change the standards and than we will be state champs."
This assumption must obviously dominate in every sport due to their recruiting efforts right? well their football team obviously consisting of ever ringer from the middle wisconsin river valley was a stellar 3-7 with a playoff blow out loss by 40 points. But what about boys basketball? They finished 7-7 in the power conference known as the Marawood South.
The point to this long post?
We are essentially making a rule because of jealousy at the following schools.
WISCO, Dominican Hoops, Aquinas Hoops, Fondy Springs Football, Regis football, St. Cats.
Totally agree! Its funny how in girls basketball 3 of the 5 state champs were public schools. Add the multiplier it will 5 out of 5 going to public schools. Just what the WIAA wants to have happen!
Instead of a multiplier, they should really be looking at individual schools + sports. Ie: Someone like Dominican should move up on basketball due to the huge amount of success and talent, where as the football there sucks. this way some of the small religious schools that dot the d7 line in all sports won't suddenly be boosted up to d4-5 and get smashed every single game in every single sport.
Quote from: TheBurrEffect on April 11, 2014, 01:19:13 AM
Instead of a multiplier, they should really be looking at individual schools + sports. Ie: Someone like Dominican should move up on basketball due to the huge amount of success and talent, where as the football there sucks. this way some of the small religious schools that dot the d7 line in all sports won't suddenly be boosted up to d4-5 and get smashed every single game in every single sport.
I know in Connecticut high schools move up to the larger school class if they keep winning. There's some formula where if your school finishes near the top over successive years they bump you up a class.
Quote from: Warrior of Law on March 13, 2014, 05:49:54 PM
Public schools cannot recruit through open enrollment. First, there must be space available. Second, if there is space available, selection is a lottery. Third, for school districts that take in nonresident students, they generally do so in the early grades. I've defended districts in this process.
I don't know the answer, but when Dominican, Pius, WI and Milwaukee Lutheran can offer free tuition to students (via Milwaukee Parental Choice Program), it will be very difficult for similarly-sized public schools to compete in some sports, particulary sports in which African-Americans from Milwaukee truly excel.
That is the way it is supposed to go. There is always the exceptions for the star athletes. One public school in my area took 3 girls from my kids school to play soccer and basketball and have also taken several others from other schools in the county. So with open enrollment public schools recruit just as much.
Quote from: Warrior of Law on March 13, 2014, 05:49:54 PM
Public schools cannot recruit through open enrollment. First, there must be space available. Second, if there is space available, selection is a lottery. Third, for school districts that take in nonresident students, they generally do so in the early grades. I've defended districts in this process.
I don't know the answer, but when Dominican, Pius, WI and Milwaukee Lutheran can offer free tuition to students (via Milwaukee Parental Choice Program), it will be very difficult for similarly-sized public schools to compete in some sports, particulary sports in which African-Americans from Milwaukee truly excel.
Public school enrollment in Wisconsin is near historic lows. There is plenty of room.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on April 11, 2014, 07:20:54 AM
I know in Connecticut high schools move up to the larger school class if they keep winning. There's some formula where if your school finishes near the top over successive years they bump you up a class.
But the public schools wouldn't want that, because it applies to them.
I hate all this recruitment stuff in HS. In the past if a kid was really serious about a sport, sometimes it was his best/only option to get coached by a good coach and be in a good program. IMO this has destroyed the town pride/neighborhood feeling of the high school teams.
Nowadays there is AAU and club teams for kids that are extremely serious about a sport and in pursuit of a college sholarship. These star kids transfer in and take a spot from a kid could have been involved in the sport at that town for 8-10 years. A good friend of mines kid was in a program since 4th grade and got replaced this past year. His senior year. 6'6" slated to be a solid rotation player or even starter. Decided to quit after he did make the team because he was not going to play that much.
Illinois is just on size. But pending on the sport their are different amounts of divisions. For example football goes to 8A basketball goes 4A soccer, XC, and others go 3A and others just have 1.
They readjust every year and I do think they do it based on competitiveness in some cases. When I was in high school we were in the biggest division for everything. Well besides cross country, track and 16" softball our school sucked at sports. The year after I left they dropped down a division in every sport except for XC. So in Illinois they do base some on competition.
In terms of recruiting schools like Whitney can get away with it because of selective enrollment. They are technically a public school but they get to pick and choose what students they want at their school. I dont agree with using it for basketball players but thats the way it is.
Disclaimer: I teach at St. Cats in Racine, so my school stands to lose something if this multiplier does get passed.
It sounds to me like the jealousy problem Kenosha refered to is "small public school from rural Wisconsin" vs "private school from urban Wisconsin". I totally understand the jealousy, and it's true that the private schools can implement a "system" just like some public schools can. I see 7th and 8th graders doing off-season conditioning with the football team at least once a week in the building.
Why doesn't the state divide the problem classes (4, 5, 6) into private/public school divisions? It was pretty stupid that St. Cats football was undefeated (except one loss to a big public school in IL) but had to go on the road to the middle of nowhere southwest Wisconsin because they were in the same division in the playoffs due to school size.
How about this (and I'm just making up numbers)
1- 1700+
2- 1200-1699
3- 900-1199
4- 500-899 (public)
4A- 500-899 (private)
5- 1-499 (public)
5A- 1-499 (private)
Crap...there's six divisions. But you get my point. Rural public schools don't have to run into top-notch private programs like St. Cats or Dominican, and private schools don't have to suffer from playing up with the big public schools.
Quote from: ODMU238 on April 11, 2014, 12:24:43 PM
Disclaimer: I teach at St. Cats in Racine, so my school stands to lose something if this multiplier does get passed.
It sounds to me like the jealousy problem Kenosha refered to is "small public school from rural Wisconsin" vs "private school from urban Wisconsin". I totally understand the jealousy, and it's true that the private schools can implement a "system" just like some public schools can. I see 7th and 8th graders doing off-season conditioning with the football team at least once a week in the building.
Why doesn't the state divide the problem classes (4, 5, 6) into private/public school divisions? It was pretty stupid that St. Cats football was undefeated (except one loss to a big public school in IL) but had to go on the road to the middle of nowhere southwest Wisconsin because they were in the same division in the playoffs due to school size.
How about this (and I'm just making up numbers)
1- 1700+
2- 1200-1699
3- 900-1199
4- 500-899 (public)
4A- 500-899 (private)
5- 1-499 (public)
5A- 1-499 (private)
Crap...there's six divisions. But you get my point. Rural public schools don't have to run into top-notch private programs like St. Cats or Dominican, and private schools don't have to suffer from playing up with the big public schools.
I'm fine with the logic, but having 7 divisions for basketball in a state the size of Wisconsin is ridiculous.
They should have 3 or 4 tops.
And I think the 5 and 5A winners should have to play, and 4 and 4A winners
How about a shot clock??? One of the main reasons why Wisconsin high school basketball suck is because they dont have a SHOT CLOCK
Quote from: atk13thst on April 11, 2014, 03:02:32 PM
How about a shot clock??? One of the main reasons why Wisconsin high school basketball suck is because they dont have a SHOT CLOCK
Does any high school state have shot clocks?
Quote from: Bleuteaux on April 11, 2014, 03:03:32 PM
Does any high school state have shot clocks?
CA, MA, MD, NY, ND, RI and WA
Quote from: atk13thst on April 11, 2014, 03:15:38 PM
CA, MA, MD, NY, ND, RI and WA
Yup, even the girls out here have a shot clock in high school.....35 seconds for the boys, 30 seconds for the girls. Same as the NCAA rules.
Quote from: atk13thst on April 11, 2014, 03:02:32 PM
How about a shot clock??? One of the main reasons why Wisconsin high school basketball suck is because they dont have a SHOT CLOCK
I've seen people at high school games who can barley keep a scoreboard clock running, good god what would happen when they have to do a shot clock?
Quote from: TheBurrEffect on April 11, 2014, 07:29:44 PM
I've seen people at high school games who can barley keep a scoreboard clock running, good god what would happen when they have to do a shot clock?
Not to mention the added equipment of actually getting one set up on either end of the floor. It took my high school 5 years to get enough money for a new scoreboard...
Shot clock in high school is a terrible idea. Plus agree with other posters that a lot of schools wouldnt have the finds to make it happen.
Quote from: chitownwarrior2011 on April 12, 2014, 12:11:36 PM
Shot clock in high school is a terrible idea. Plus agree with other posters that a lot of schools wouldnt have the finds to make it happen.
I guess you like stall ball then.
Quote from: atk13thst on April 12, 2014, 12:53:18 PM
I guess you like stall ball then.
Hate it, but I have been around the high school game my entire life and have only seen it by one team and that is Highland Park. Love the high school game, pretty fast paced actually.
Quote from: chitownwarrior2011 on April 12, 2014, 12:54:58 PM
Hate it, but I have been around the high school game my entire life and have only seen it by one team and that is Highland Park. Love the high school game, pretty fast paced actually.
Please, maybe not where you're at but EVERY school in Wisconsin play stall ball. Even the city schools!
The multiplier considers the number of special needs kids that are in the public schools who seldom participate in sports. Private schools don't have the resources or are for the most part unprepared to handle special needs.
catholic memorial in waukesha is a d-2 basketball and soccer and d-3 football in a conference of all d-1 and d-2 schools. their football teams typically will have 28-35 players on their rosters with guys going both ways. football coach bill young has been a stud forth the last 35 years and will be in the state hall of fame with a winning percentage of over 65% . they have qualified for the playoffs many times competing in this division. as a matter of fact, they compete equally well in all sports within the division of larger schools.
as for public school recruiting-exhibit a, germantown basketball
Quote from: Warhawk Warrior on April 12, 2014, 01:30:09 PM
The multiplier considers the number of special needs kids that are in the public schools who seldom participate in sports. Private schools don't have the resources or are for the most part unprepared to handle special needs.
So there are 65 special needs kids to every 100 non special needs kids in a public school? That seems a little high.
Probably about 15 to 30% in Milwaukee. When you consider academic eligibility the 65%factor is light for the Milwaukee area. You can't put the blame on the kids.