MUScoop

Player (Jr.)                fgm   fga    pct    3ptm   3pta  pct   ftm  fta    pct    reb    ast    blk    stl    pts Tony Miller                  76     221   34.4   41   120   34.2   46   86   53.5   4.9   8.3   0.03   1.6   7.2 Dominic James           159   399   39.8   45   145   31   89   134   66.4   2.7   4.4   0.23   1.8   12.9 Junior Cadougan         73    190     38.4     9   38   23.7   59   86   68.6   2.1   5.4   0.17   1.1   6.3 Derrick Wilson            60    153    39.2     1   14   7.1   38   86   44.2   3.8   4.2   0.07   1.3   5.1

Have heard some comparisons made lately between these four point guards.  Here are their junior season stats.

On a side note, anyone know how to post excel stats or stats like this without them being distorted?

So really, if Derrick could AT ALL from the outside he would match up well. I know we talked about this last year but if he can develop into a guy who  shoots three 3 pointers per game and hit one we'd be fine.

What I notice is his horrendous FT shooting.  If Derrick shot 69% like Junior did, which for a starting PG is still below average I believe,  he would have scored an extra 21 points this season and that isn't even counting the extra points he lost from missing the front end of one and ones.  I don't care how bad Derrick is in practice shooting 3's, he should take about two a game IMO, so he can get a better feel out there.  If nothing else he may make one once in awhile and that can only help spread the floor and help his ability to penetrate.  I would venture a guess that if Derrick hit 69% of all free throws this year we would have been a tournament team.  The low end, like I said would have been 21 more points, the high end could have been at least another 50% more....?  so maybe 30-35 points lost strictly because of FT's.  That could have been the difference in several games.  A lot of people are unhappy with Derrick, but he really just needs to improve his free throw shooting in the off season and at least be willing (or have the green light) to take 1-2 threes a game.  This improvement would be huge for next season, because Derrick will still earn playing time because of his quality defense and his great assist-to-turnover ratio. 

Good to see Derrick's numbers. Again. And Buzz is going to play him, still.

Quote from: MUEagle1090 on March 10, 2014, 10:05:13 PM
So really, if Derrick could AT ALL from the outside he would match up well. I know we talked about this last year but if he can develop into a guy who  shoots three 3 pointers per game and hit one we'd be fine.

Can't happen - he is not a shooter.

What about setting up plays folks? I do not believe comparing players is helpful. Working on areas that can be improved is.

Quote from: BenCat12 on March 10, 2014, 10:20:15 PM
What I notice is his horrendous FT shooting.  If Derrick shot 69% like Junior did, which for a starting PG is still below average I believe,  he would have scored an extra 21 points this season and that isn't even counting the extra points he lost from missing the front end of one and ones.  I don't care how bad Derrick is in practice shooting 3's, he should take about two a game IMO, so he can get a better feel out there.  If nothing else he may make one once in awhile and that can only help spread the floor and help his ability to penetrate.  I would venture a guess that if Derrick hit 69% of all free throws this year we would have been a tournament team.  The low end, like I said would have been 21 more points, the high end could have been at least another 50% more....?  so maybe 30-35 points lost strictly because of FT's.  That could have been the difference in several games.  A lot of people are unhappy with Derrick, but he really just needs to improve his free throw shooting in the off season and at least be willing (or have the green light) to take 1-2 threes a game.  This improvement would be huge for next season, because Derrick will still earn playing time because of his quality defense and his great assist-to-turnover ratio. 

Well, I am glad to hear that Derrick's defense is just considered "quality", and we have gotten away from "elite" and  "lockdown" reality may be approaching the board, but not likely on defending Da Coach/Derrick.

What this says is that we haven't had a PG who could shoot in a long, long time.  Actually, the reason we were successful with Acker and Cubillan is that they could both shoot. 

His numbers were close to Tony's.

In Tony's defense, he had a legit center (Mac), PF (Key), shooter who would utilize the inside-outside and hit the 3 (Logterman), and some talent on the bench. Also, that year he went coast to coast on Duke in the Sweet 16 matchup AND they were a defensively solid team. So his numbers, though comparatively similar to DWilson's, still favors Tony.

Quote from: 77ncaachamps on March 11, 2014, 12:10:12 PM
His numbers were close to Tony's.

In Tony's defense, he had a legit center (Mac), PF (Key), shooter who would utilize the inside-outside and hit the 3 (Logterman), and some talent on the bench. Also, that year he went coast to coast on Duke in the Sweet 16 matchup AND they were a defensively solid team. So his numbers, though comparatively similar to DWilson's, still favors Tony.

Not really. Miller averaged over 2 more points per game (not insignficant) and averaged a whopping 8 assists per game (compared to Derrick's 4.2). The assist number is the big one--it clearly separates Miller from Wilson.   

Quote from: brandx on March 10, 2014, 11:05:41 PM
Can't happen - he is not a shooter.

Agreed.  He's but not a shooter, but neither was junior.  If he can't shoot ~23% from 3 then he really shouldn't play, but I think he has the ability to do so like Junior did.

What makes Wilson's FT percentage so unforgivable is that he brings nothing else to the table offensively. Those other guys had game on the offensive end outside of FT shooting.

I love Buzz, but this year was no doubt a learning experience for him.

Quote from: WarriorFan on March 11, 2014, 09:03:45 AM
What this says is that we haven't had a PG who could shoot in a long, long time.  Actually, the reason we were successful with Acker and Cubillan is that they could both shoot. 

Really? Travis Diener could shoot, and that was not that long ago. And so could Acker and Cooby. DJ was not a good shooter but he brought so much more to the table: athleticism, jumping ability, scoring defense, and a hell of a passer.

Quote from: BenCat12 on March 10, 2014, 10:03:02 PM

Player (Jr.)                fgm   fga    pct    3ptm   3pta  pct   ftm  fta    pct    reb    ast    blk    stl    pts Tony Miller                  76     221   34.4   41   120   34.2   46   86   53.5   4.9   8.3   0.03   1.6   7.2 Dominic James           159   399   39.8   45   145   31   89   134   66.4   2.7   4.4   0.23   1.8   12.9 Junior Cadougan         73    190     38.4     9   38   23.7   59   86   68.6   2.1   5.4   0.17   1.1   6.3 Derrick Wilson            60    153    39.2     1   14   7.1   38   86   44.2   3.8   4.2   0.07   1.3   5.1

Have heard some comparisons made lately between these four point guards.  Here are their junior season stats.

On a side note, anyone know how to post excel stats or stats like this without them being distorted?

I am not one to take the piss out of our kids but Derrick cannot be compared with these other guys. A great example of how numbers do not tell the complete story.

Quote from: 4th and State on March 11, 2014, 12:26:22 PM
Agreed.  He's but not a shooter, but neither was junior.  If he can't shoot ~23% from 3 then he really shouldn't play, but I think he has the ability to do so like Junior did.

Junior could hit some mid-range jumpers his junior year.  I don't even remember a game where Derrick took one.  And if he did, it was a brick at the end of the shot clock.  He should spend the entire summer shooting the basketball.

Quote from: willie warrior on March 11, 2014, 03:55:31 PM
Travis Diener could shoot, and that was not that long ago.

I get your point, but it's all perspective.  Travis played his last game for Marquette on Feb 20, 2005, before breaking his hand in the infamous "non contact drill" on Feb 23.  That was over 9 years ago.  To today's college Freshman, that's about half their life.

Quote from: windyplayer on March 11, 2014, 12:24:35 PM
Not really. Miller averaged over 2 more points per game (not insignficant) and averaged a whopping 8 assists per game (compared to Derrick's 4.2). The assist number is the big one--it clearly separates Miller from Wilson.   

You're right.
I must have looked at those numbers too quickly!

Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 11, 2014, 10:14:10 PM
I get your point, but it's all perspective.  Travis played his last game for Marquette on Feb 20, 2005, before breaking his hand in the infamous "non contact drill" on Feb 23.  That was over 9 years ago.  To today's college Freshman, that's about half their life.

And they weren't born when Tony Miller played!

Quote from: 77ncaachamps on March 11, 2014, 11:07:48 PM
And they weren't born when Tony Miller played!

Forget all the Wilson, Dawson, Mayo talk, I'd like Tony Miller on this team.  I was at this game, and it cemented Miller as a program changer in my mind.  An assist total that may never be beat...

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1356&dat=19940321&id=q8lPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=FQgEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4105,63087

What no one has mentioned here is Tony Miller MADE 41 3 point shots that year...he had to be defended every where....that is 40 times the number Derrick made all year.  Tony shot 34.2% from 3...just 10% points below Derrick's FT percentage...

I would venture a guess that roughly 10 of Derrick's points this whole year came from outside 3' from the basket....thereby...don't have to defend him on the perimeter, collapse D on Davante, shut off driving/slashing lanes for Mayo....domino effect....

Quote from: Ners on March 12, 2014, 12:16:55 AM
What no one has mentioned here is Tony Miller MADE 41 3 point shots that year...he had to be defended every where....that is 40 times the number Derrick made all year.  Tony shot 34.2% from 3...just 10% points below Derrick's FT percentage...

I would venture a guess that roughly 10 of Derrick's points this whole year came from outside 3' from the basket....thereby...don't have to defend him on the perimeter, collapse D on Davante, shut off driving/slashing lanes for Mayo....domino effect....

That is brand new information!!

Derrick can't shoot.   The FT's are crucial.   In every other way, he is an acceptable PG.   

Quote from: tower912 on March 12, 2014, 09:33:00 AM
Derrick can't shoot.   The FT's are crucial.   In every other way, he is an acceptable PG.   

Sounds like a back up PG - Not a more minutes than any other player on the team PG.  This just in....being able to shoot from outside 2 feet and make free throws is an important part of being a guard in high major basketball or any level...

But yes, he is good at protecting the ball generally - and finding a perimeter shot for a trailer or off of a ball reversal.

No question Tony Miller is head and shoulders above the others.  He is one of the best PGs in MU's history.  Comparing Derrick to him is like comparing Davante to Jim Chones or Maurice Lucas.

As to the comments like Derrick "brings nothing else to the table offensively," that's simply wrong.  He outrebounds both Dominic and Junior by more than 1 rpg - and 39 of Derrick's 119 rebounds are on the offensive end - and was just 0.2 apg behind Dominic.  And while his 3 pt% is way behind both, his overall fg% is just 0.6% behind Dominic, and 0.8% better than Junior.  That means while he is nowhere close in outside shooting, his ability to convert inside is better.  I had to do a double take when I saw that his overall FG% was so close to Dominic's given Dominic's finishing ability and better outside shooting...but that's what the numbers say.

No question Derrick's FT and outside shooting need a ton of work this summer, but he compares very well statistically to both Dominic and Junior as juniors.

If Derrick can just improve his shooting to a respectable level (60% FT), and Todd and Deonte continue to improve (and get more minutes) as guys who can take the handoff and make things happen (like Dominic had with Jerel, Wesley and Lazar, and Junior had with Vander), Derrick's senior season could be every bit as solid as Dominic's and Junior's.

Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 12, 2014, 10:16:21 AM
No question Tony Miller is head and shoulders above the others.  He is one of the best PGs in MU's history.  Comparing Derrick to him is like comparing Davante to Jim Chones or Maurice Lucas.

This is a little dramatic.  But I see your point.  I don't think there is a comparison between Tony Miller, or James for that matter, with Junior and Derrick.  I just provided the stats because I have heard comparisons on this board and at games.

As to the comments like Derrick "brings nothing else to the table offensively," that's simply wrong.  He outrebounds both Dominic and Junior by more than 1 rpg - and 39 of Derrick's 119 rebounds are on the offensive end - and was just 0.2 apg behind Dominic.  And while his 3 pt% is way behind both, his overall fg% is just 0.6% behind Dominic, and 0.8% better than Junior.  That means while he is nowhere close in outside shooting, his ability to convert inside is better.  I had to do a double take when I saw that his overall FG% was so close to Dominic's given Dominic's finishing ability and better outside shooting...but that's what the numbers say.

Derrick's rebounding numbers are inflated because he is not the "back" guy in transition defense.  Buzz has stated that he uses Derrick to crash the offensive boards.  The other three point guards did not play this way.  The comparison with Dominic and assists doesn't work either because James also scored 7.8 ppg more.  If you equate it to possible points, Dominic accounted for 21.7 ppg(figuring all assisted baskets as 2pt fg's.)  Derrick accounts for 13.5 ppg.  That's a huge difference.  The fg% stat is skewed in Derrick's favor as well.  If you refigure the fg% by removing the 3 pt shots you get these fg%'s
Miller=35%
James=45%
Cadougan=42%
Wilson=42%
When you consider that probably 90+% of the 2pt shots Derrick has attempted are from inside of 3 ft.  Those numbers become that much worse.  The others attempted jump shots inside of the arc.  Other than the game winner attempt against St. John's I don't recall Derrick taking a 2pt jump shot this season.....I could be wrong.

No question Derrick's FT and outside shooting need a ton of work this summer, but he compares very well statistically to both Dominic and Junior as juniors.

Junior maybe, Dominic absolutely not.

If Derrick can just improve his shooting to a respectable level (60% FT), and Todd and Deonte continue to improve (and get more minutes) as guys who can take the handoff and make things happen (like Dominic had with Jerel, Wesley and Lazar, and Junior had with Vander), Derrick's senior season could be every bit as solid as Dominic's and Junior's.

60% FT shooting for a senior PG is respectable?  I can't imagine there are many tournament teams from major conferences that have a starting senior PG shooting 60% from the line.....  I do believe Derrick can improve, especially his FT shooting, like I said in an early post.  I would also like to see him attempt 1-2 three point shots a game next year.