I was fortunate enough to be back in the Bradley Center for Senior Night. I was disappointed with the result but happy with the fight our boys showed.
After the game I was talking to my buddies and one of them brought up how we are 2-4 in OT this season. He was using it as a point of contention but it helped me realize, we were 4 points away from a great season.
Think about it. If we win those 4 OT losses in regulation, we are 21-10 with a 13-5 conference record. We would be alone in third place in the conference. I don't know the exact number, but we would have an RPI in the 40s or low 50s. We would have a very solid Villanova scalp in our possession. We would no longer have a bad loss at Butler. Our worst lost would have been @ASU or New Mexico on a neutral court. We are dancing, no question.
Of course, ifs and buts were candy and nuts we would all have a Merry Christmas. It's a pretty picture but it's not what happened. I just wanted to point out how close this team was to a quality season. Not a great season, but a quality one.
This team has been 1-2 winning plays away from winning in several of their losses this year. In the past, these were the plays that buzz's teams would make. This year, they didn't. We all have our opinions why.
Most frustrating year following MU for me in 25 years...because the team significantly underperformed its talent. Limiting Mayo and Gardner from the outset was huge mistake...and the same could be said for Burton by the time conference play rolled around. The incessant lineup roulette/substitutions ensured that a cohesive group was never built. I recall - I think Providence game - Dawson played a 3:32 stint and played with 9 different teammates. Derrick had a similar stretch over 5 minutes, playing with 8 different guys..that's ludicrous and there is a reason you don't see other coaches doing it.
Buzz did call it right on sticking with Jake for the year...but called it wrong on limiting Mayo initially...and giving those minutes to Juan..at the expense of Burton as well. Gardner needed to play 32 regardless.
AT some point Buzz should have split PG minutes to get a true assessment of what game results would look like if both guys got equal opportunity. All other changes were virtually tried and none still panned out in winning games we'd expect to..hopefully as Buzz reflects on the season he'll reach similar conclusions.
Quote from: Ners on March 09, 2014, 02:22:19 PM
Most frustrating year following MU for me in 25 years...because the team significantly underperformed its talent. Limiting Mayo and Gardner from the outset was huge mistake...and the same could be said for Burton by the time conference play rolled around. The incessant lineup roulette/substitutions ensured that a cohesive group was never built. I recall - I think Providence game - Dawson played a 3:32 stint and played with 9 different teammates. Derrick had a similar stretch over 5 minutes, playing with 8 different guys..that's ludicrous and there is a reason you don't see other coaches doing it.
Buzz did call it right on sticking with Jake for the year...but called it wrong on limiting Mayo initially...and giving those minutes to Juan..at the expense of Burton as well. Gardner needed to play 32 regardless.
AT some point Buzz should have split PG minutes to get a true assessment of what game results would look like if both guys got equal opportunity. All other changes were virtually tried and none still panned out in winning games we'd expect to..hopefully as Buzz reflects on the season he'll reach similar conclusions.
Yeah, I'm sure that upon reflection Buzz will realize that you know more about coaching his team than he does. He'll probably sent you an email thanking you for all your great advice this year and asking you for more. LOL
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 09, 2014, 02:36:44 PM
Yeah, I'm sure that upon reflection Buzz will realize that you know more about coaching his team than he does. He'll probably sent you an email thanking you for all your great advice this year and asking you for more. LOL
The irony of this
Season Perspective: Terrible and frustrating. What is interesting, the drums are already starting to roll to cover next year up with excuses. That will continue throughout the year. Hope we improve significantly. It should be expected, but the slurpers likely will have a different perspective.
At any rate, maybe we will run the table in the BEast tourney. Now there would be a pleasant surpise, which we have not had too many this year.
Quote from: willie warrior on March 09, 2014, 04:20:41 PM
Season Perspective: Terrible and frustrating. What is interesting, the drums are already starting to roll to cover next year up with excuses. That will continue throughout the year. Hope we improve significantly. It should be expected, but the slurpers likely will have a different perspective.
At any rate, maybe we will run the table in the BEast tourney. Now there would be a pleasant surpise, which we have not had too many this year.
This is where back to back recruiting classes of JA and ST have hurt. Now we are faced with relying heavily on Sophs and newcomers.
Quote from: tower912 on March 09, 2014, 02:02:55 PM
This team has been 1-2 winning plays away from winning in several of their losses this year. In the past, these were the plays that buzz's teams would make. This year, they didn't. We all have our opinions why.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 09, 2014, 01:59:52 PM
After the game I was talking to my buddies and one of them brought up how we are 2-4 in OT this season. He was using it as a point of contention but it helped me realize, we were 4 points away from a great season.
Think about it. If we win those 4 OT losses in regulation, we are 21-10 with a 13-5 conference record. We would be alone in third place in the conference. I don't know the exact number, but we would have an RPI in the 40s or low 50s. We would have a very solid Villanova scalp in our possession. We would no longer have a bad loss at Butler. Our worst lost would have been @ASU or New Mexico on a neutral court. We are dancing, no question.
Of course, ifs and buts were candy and nuts we would all have a Merry Christmas. It's a pretty picture but it's not what happened. I just wanted to point out how close this team was to a quality season. Not a great season, but a quality one.
I don't want to be the rainstorm at the What-If Parade, but why, when doing this kind of thing, do fans always assume we should have (or could have) won the close losses without saying we should have (or could have) lost the close victories?
Yeah, we coulda-shoulda won the 4 OT games and the 2-pointer at Arizona State. You know what? Fans of Georgetown (twice!), DePaul and Seton Hall are saying coulda-shoulda about the losses to MU. Hell, fans at New Hampshire and Southern probably are, too!
Were we "close" to being 21-10 and 13-5? I guess. Were we also close to being 13-18 and 5-13? Yep.
Over the course of a long season, what should have happened pretty much does happen. A team earns the record it establishes.
We are 17-14. We are Marquette.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 09, 2014, 04:12:58 PM
The irony of this
I would say there is irony all over the place. As I recall quite a few your posts looking just like Lenny's years ago. Can't figure out what would have changed in that timeframe. 8-)
Quote from: MU82 on March 09, 2014, 04:43:21 PM
I don't want to be the rainstorm at the What-If Parade, but why, when doing this kind of thing, do fans always assume we should have (or could have) won the close losses without saying we should have (or could have) lost the close victories?
Yeah, we coulda-shoulda won the 4 OT games and the 2-pointer at Arizona State. You know what? Fans of Georgetown (twice!), DePaul and Seton Hall are saying coulda-shoulda about the losses to MU. Hell, fans at New Hampshire and Southern probably are, too!
Were we "close" to being 21-10 and 13-5? I guess. Were we also close to being 13-18 and 5-13? Yep.
Over the course of a long season, what should have happened pretty much does happen. A team earns the record it establishes.
We are 17-14. We are Marquette.
+1000. We were outscored in the Big East, point differential wise. Our Pythagorean (baseball terms), probably was of a sub .500 team. According to Pomeroy, both Butler and Seton Hall were more unlucky than we were. If we lost all of those overtimes, but won all of the other games by 15+, I would feel we were unlucky.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 09, 2014, 04:12:58 PM
The irony of this
Irony? My beef with TC is 95% about what a first class phony he is. I certainly don't think he's a really good coach but never said he was horrible.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 09, 2014, 01:59:52 PM
Think about it. If we win those 4 OT losses in regulation, we are 21-10 with a 13-5 conference record. We would be alone in third place in the conference. I don't know the exact number, but we would have an RPI in the 40s or low 50s. We would have a very solid Villanova scalp in our possession. We would no longer have a bad loss at Butler. Our worst lost would have been @ASU or New Mexico on a neutral court. We are dancing, no question.
Nice idea but then reality hits.... HARD.
All good reasons to look forward to next year.
Quote from: WarriorFan on March 10, 2014, 08:38:27 AM
Nice idea but then reality hits.... HARD.
Especially when two of those OT losses required miracle comebacks just to get to OT.
This team is the definition of mediocre.
Quote from: willie warrior on March 09, 2014, 04:20:41 PM
Season Perspective: Terrible and frustrating. What is interesting, the drums are already starting to roll to cover next year up with excuses. That will continue throughout the year. Hope we improve significantly. It should be expected, but the slurpers likely will have a different perspective.
This is common after any losing season. After winning seasons we talk about how next season is going to be even better. After losing seasons, we can't see how we can get out of our current funk. We fans are very reactive creatures.
S16, S16, E8, oops. 69-39 all time in the BEast under Buzz. This year was the outlier. Frustrating, painful. In 10 years, after another 250 wins under Buzz, this will be nothing but a distant memory, a cautionary tale, a metaphor, the one that got away that interrupted his streak of second weekend appearances.
Quote from: tower912 on March 10, 2014, 09:34:14 AM
In 10 years, after another 250 wins under Buzz, this will be nothing but a distant memory, a cautionary tale, a metaphor, the one that got away that interrupted his streak of second weekend appearances.
There's no way this happens unless Buzz really ups his recruiting. He has missed on far too many non-JUCO guys. Whole classes have been busts. Which has helped leave a roster full of role players right now.
He is getting the highly ranked classes. They just have to be OKG's. This year's freshman class was highly ranked. So is next year's. Buzz has to find the right buttons with them.
Quote from: tower912 on March 10, 2014, 09:55:21 AM
He is getting the highly ranked classes. They just have to be OKG's. This year's freshman class was highly ranked. So is next year's. Buzz has to find the right buttons with them.
Relative to other squads, I didn't think Marquette suffered from a talent deficit this campaign. They suffered from mental issues like lack of confidence and reticence and fear.
Quote from: MUfan12 on March 10, 2014, 09:49:45 AM
There's no way this happens unless Buzz really ups his recruiting. He has missed on far too many non-JUCO guys. Whole classes have been busts. Which has helped leave a roster full of role players right now.
Disagree somewhat on this. If Vander is on this team, it's a top 15 team. Additionally, Steve Taylor Jr has been hampered by injury as has the development of Juan. There were recruiting misses for sure but I'm not sure it hamstrung the team. In fact, perhaps some players aren't here if we don't have some of those "misses"
This is the benefit of hindsight, but I think the issue was that we didn't go to the freshmen sooner. Not that they would have helped any in the non-con but in theory that time would have improved them to the point that they could help on the back end of the season. However, in reality by the time we go to a point where we knew something was up we were into the conference season and at that point it was likely too late. Again knowing in total, we should have gone to the freshman sooner but Buzz couldn't pull that trigger.
Next year will be very interesting because he is going to have to make a lot of decisions on the youth. The only players at this point that earned a "guarantee" are Mayo and Burton. Lots of PT available for next year.
Vander here= top 15 team.
Jamil morphing into Lazar/Jae/Jimmy= tourney team
Duane healthy and who everybody hoped he would be=tourney team.
Lack of senior leadership, lack of guards who could create their own shots, lack of player development=2013 -2104 season.
This year was Buzz's best recruiting class. I do believe that came with a new set of challenges that he hasn't faced before. He is used to coaching 3 stars and Jucos. Top 50 kids are a different kind of animal. I think he learns from this season and knows how to better utilize them next season.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 10, 2014, 10:48:00 AM
This year was Buzz's best recruiting class. I do believe that came with a new set of challenges that he hasn't faced before. He is used to coaching 3 stars and Jucos. Top 50 kids are a different kind of animal. I think he learns from this season and knows how to better utilize them next season.
Not to mention he HAS to better utilize them next year
Quote from: MU82 on March 09, 2014, 04:43:21 PM
I don't want to be the rainstorm at the What-If Parade, but why, when doing this kind of thing, do fans always assume we should have (or could have) won the close losses without saying we should have (or could have) lost the close victories?
Yeah, we coulda-shoulda won the 4 OT games and the 2-pointer at Arizona State. You know what? Fans of Georgetown (twice!), DePaul and Seton Hall are saying coulda-shoulda about the losses to MU. Hell, fans at New Hampshire and Southern probably are, too!
Were we "close" to being 21-10 and 13-5? I guess. Were we also close to being 13-18 and 5-13? Yep.
Over the course of a long season, what should have happened pretty much does happen. A team earns the record it establishes.
We are 17-14. We are Marquette.
Absolutely true. This team was mere points away from being either a tournament lock or trash that not even the CBI would sniff. I just wanted to point out how thin the margin was.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 10, 2014, 10:48:00 AM
This year was Buzz's best recruiting class. I do believe that came with a new set of challenges that he hasn't faced before. He is used to coaching 3 stars and Jucos. Top 50 kids are a different kind of animal. I think he learns from this season and knows how to better utilize them next season.
Well yes & no. I think Deonte should have played about 8 mpg more and Dawson should have played more situationally (vs. zones & when he was feeling it like @GTown & @Providence). However, when talking about this class, McKay left before playing a game and Duane got injured and redshirted. Had those guys been here & healthy and the class got the same minutes as they ended up getting this year, then I think there would be a major reason to gripe. As of now, no MAJOR conclusions can be drawn based on the 2013 class minutes this year.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 09, 2014, 01:59:52 PM
I was fortunate enough to be back in the Bradley Center for Senior Night. I was disappointed with the result but happy with the fight our boys showed.
After the game I was talking to my buddies and one of them brought up how we are 2-4 in OT this season. He was using it as a point of contention but it helped me realize, we were 4 points away from a great season.
Think about it. If we win those 4 OT losses in regulation, we are 21-10 with a 13-5 conference record. We would be alone in third place in the conference. I don't know the exact number, but we would have an RPI in the 40s or low 50s. We would have a very solid Villanova scalp in our possession. We would no longer have a bad loss at Butler. Our worst lost would have been @ASU or New Mexico on a neutral court. We are dancing, no question.
Of course, ifs and buts were candy and nuts we would all have a Merry Christmas. It's a pretty picture but it's not what happened. I just wanted to point out how close this team was to a quality season. Not a great season, but a quality one.
I like the way you think and agree. Add in a healthy Mayo at ASU and no suspension at UW and a healthy Gardner against Sd. St. and even if we only win 1/2 the OT games we would be at least 21-10 and dancing.
What's going to change next year with senior Derrick Wilson and senior Juan Andersen starting and play 30+ mins each ? That ought to sell some season tickets.
Quote from: mu03eng on March 10, 2014, 10:49:32 AM
Not to mention he HAS to better utilize them next year
Quote from: forgetful on March 10, 2014, 03:18:00 PM
I like the way you think and agree. Add in a healthy Mayo at ASU and no suspension at UW and a healthy Gardner against Sd. St. and even if we only win 1/2 the OT games we would be at least 21-10 and dancing.
There will be 50 teams that can say "if we would have won the close ones, we'd be in the tournament". Means nothing other than that you lost and are looking for the silver lining.
Chicos is right. We are what our record says we are.
If that were true, then we were an elite 8 team last year. Not just 'lucky'.
Quote from: madtownwarrior on March 10, 2014, 05:35:44 PM
What's going to change next year with senior Derrick Wilson and senior Juan Andersen starting and play 30+ mins each ? That ought to sell some season tickets.
That's a heck of an assumption.
Quote from: madtownwarrior on March 10, 2014, 05:35:44 PM
What's going to change next year with senior Derrick Wilson and senior Juan Andersen starting and play 30+ mins each ? That ought to sell some season tickets.
Madtown,
I get you are a negativo but do you honestly believe that? Unless we have major injuries or Andersen blows up his senior year he isn't even going to average 20+ minutes let alone 30+ minutes.
I also have a sneaking suspicion that Derrick only averages 20-25 minutes next year. Too early to say for sure but that is my guess.
Quote from: tower912 on March 10, 2014, 05:49:52 PM
If that were true, then we were an elite 8 team last year. Not just 'lucky'.
Lose and you are what you are. No excuses. Win and you're lucky. Chicos Law.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 10, 2014, 10:38:27 PM
Lose and you are what you are. No excuses. Win and you're lucky. Chicos Law.
"We are lucky to be here"
Brent Buzz Williams
Buzz's law. Common sense law. Smart people law. Feel free to interchange as you wish.
Don't forget to say "coach's speak" and "nuance" in the rebuttal.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 10, 2014, 10:43:16 PM
"We are lucky to be here"
Brent Buzz Williams
Buzz's law. Common sense law. Smart people law. Feel free to interchange as you wish.
Don't forget to say "coach's speak" and "nuance" in the rebuttal.
Buzz = humble
Chicos = disingenuous and passive aggressive
Thankfully all but a very few here can tell the difference.
Always some luck in a 1 point win or loss. For you, though, either we're lucky (win) or choke (lose). Since April 8, 2008 close games are a lose/lose proposition for you. Funny.
Oh, and to the best of my knowledge Buzz said it once to be nice. You're still harping on it almost a year later.
Quote from: madtownwarrior on March 10, 2014, 05:35:44 PM
What's going to change next year with senior Derrick Wilson and senior Juan Andersen starting and play 30+ mins each ? That ought to sell some season tickets.
Honestly, what do you get out of being so negative and disingenuous? If what you say happens either half the team will be injured or those players will be performing way above expectation. I suppose the third option is that Buzz is an idiot and will do what you say, but why dwell on that?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 10, 2014, 10:53:53 PM
Buzz = humble
Chicos = disingenuous and passive aggressive
Thankfully all but a very few here can tell the difference.
Always some luck in a 1 point win or loss. For you, though, either we're lucky (win) or choke (lose). Since April 8, 2008 close games are a lose/lose proposition for you. Funny.
Oh, and to the best of my knowledge Buzz said it once to be nice. You're still harping on it almost a year later.
Man, Lenny--I love you but Buzz has you slurping. You talk about disingenuous. Try this on for the definition. Buzz has said on more than one occasion: Derrick is a gamechanger and the best defender he has ever coached.
BINGO-now there is a good example of disingenuous. Or "Buzzspeak", glad I was able to get that into the rebuttal.
And Humble? I admit I have never met Buzz, but have watched and listened to him plenty. Was he humble when he danced at West Va.? He likes to project that lonesome cowboy persona, but as stubborn as he is I really doubt that this equation fits: Buzz=Humble=Stubborn
C'mon Man!
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 10, 2014, 11:00:01 AM
Absolutely true. This team was mere points away from being either a tournament lock or trash that not even the CBI would sniff. I just wanted to point out how thin the margin was.
Last year was a thin margin year where we stayed healthy, caught some breaks, had some players step up their games and came out better than we could have hoped. Not surprisingly this year those hopes were higher, we had injuries and defections, caught few breaks and had no one step up their game (ok, Todd did at the end, and may have single handedly kept this from being a total disaster) and we are left with a lot of disappointment and disharmony.
I am trying to keep my perspective broader than just this season, mainly because this season was the most frustrating that I can remember. There are a lot of lessons to be learned this year, and Buzz has to live up to the "humble" part of his nature and accept them.
Under Buzz, who coaches so one possession matters, the season will always depend on who wins the close games.