With today's loss in Philadelphia, it's time to think about next year. Put a fork in this year's team, they're done. No NCAA is likely. The NIT is a "who gives a rat's backside" tournament and the NCAA in Milwaukee probably means we would not get a home game anyway.
So that said, what's the takeaways from this year? Here's a couple:
1) Buzz is still a great coach, but he's not going anywhere right now. He's got work to do in Milwaukee.
2) The verdict is still out on last year's vaunted recruiting class. I'm anxious to see what JuJuan can do with some more defensive work and a year under his belt.
3) I like what I see in ST Jr., and Deonte. Here's hoping they'll get their playing time next year.
4) Is Todd Mayo ever going to be the team leader we so badly wanted this year? I had high hopes for this year's team because I had hoped Todd Mayo would step up as Vander did last year. He didn't and still lacks some of the basic maturity to lead. Oh, and don't even think about going NBA Todd.
5) Where's next year's offense coming from? With Davante gone, this is a big question.
6) What's it going to take for us to turn it around next year? Was this a one-year aberration or a sign of a not-so-expected rebuilding program?
4) I actually think that he would've stepped up if he hadn't been suspended for most of last season. I think it killed a bit of his confidence but he's clearly got it back and I fully expect him to step up next year.
5) Todd, Deonte, then remember Duane coming back from injury will give us an offensive option at PG. Thinking STJ and Fisher will hook us up with some.
6) In the very least I think we'll be fine in two years but I doubt these pains will last. Wayyy too much talent on the team and I think we'll get some addition by subtraction.
But I refuse to believe the season's over till it's actually over. If I did I would've missed the Blackhawks epic comeback against the Red Wings last year and in the same mindset I won't give up till it's over.
We'll have 7 months to wonder about next season. I'll wait a couple weeks before calling it over.
It was interesting at the end seeing next years starting lineup in the game... Dawson, Burton, JJJ, Taylor, Anderson.
I'd pay to see that 5 against our current starting 5.
Hell, I'd pay to see that 5 against Wilson, Wilson, Jake, Chris and Davante today!
Quote from: dgies9156 on March 02, 2014, 10:34:27 PM
1) Buzz is still a great coach, but he's not going anywhere right now. He's got work to do in Milwaukee.
The silver lining is that Steve Patterson has updated his Rolodex
Quote from: WarriorFan on March 03, 2014, 12:51:17 AM
It was interesting at the end seeing next years starting lineup in the game... Dawson, Burton, JJJ, Taylor, Anderson.
I'd pay to see that 5 against our current starting 5.
I don't think that would turn out like you think it would.
You really think Buzz won't start De Wilson - I see some easy bets to make and win next year....
Quote from: WarriorFan on March 03, 2014, 12:51:17 AM
It was interesting at the end seeing next years starting lineup in the game... Dawson, Burton, JJJ, Taylor, Anderson.
I'd pay to see that 5 against our current starting 5.
Hell, I'd pay to see that 5 against Wilson, Wilson, Jake, Chris and Davante today!
Coach Williams has to continue the same approach/players at Providence tomorrow night. However, if the Warriors cannot take down the Friars on the road, Coach Williams should do what Al did with the Scrambled Eggs.
That is, let the young guys loose for St. John's and the BE tournament. I suspect the won-loss would likely remain the same with the young guys, but what the hell. It cannot be any duller, or pedantic than we have seen in the last 29 games.
Think about, we been through 29 games, and the Warriors still appear to have the same problems. Certainly, the criticism on this board has been the same for 29 games.
So, as I said, what the hell?
Because the young guys aren't as good.
If they end up in the NIT, fine! NIT is a good tourney.
Quote from: keefe on March 03, 2014, 12:53:45 AM
The silver lining is that Steve Patterson has updated his Rolodex
AD's dont think the way fans like you and I do. Fans think that if a hot coach has a bad season than all of the sudden that he is a nobody and that he will stay put in his job. AD's dont look at one year and say "O looks like Buzz got really stupid in 12 months, Im going to pass." He will still be a hot commodity for some big team, he probably wont go, but just because fans think he stinks now does not mean that AD's do.
Quote from: WarriorFan on March 03, 2014, 12:51:17 AM
It was interesting at the end seeing next years starting lineup in the game... Dawson, Burton, JJJ, Taylor, Anderson.
I'd pay to see that 5 against our current starting 5.
Hell, I'd pay to see that 5 against Wilson, Wilson, Jake, Chris and Davante today!
So Juan will start but Derrick and Todd won't? I'm curious what makes you think that.
agree with Kenosha - it's probably worse as Buzz seems to feel the criticism of the his team and players by the fans - at least he seems to periodically address it which I find a bad sign
Quote from: KenoshaWarrior on March 03, 2014, 09:05:14 AM
AD's dont think the way fans like you and I do. Fans think that if a hot coach has a bad season than all of the sudden that he is a nobody and that he will stay put in his job. AD's dont look at one year and say "O looks like Buzz got really stupid in 12 months, Im going to pass." He will still be a hot commodity for some big team, he probably wont go, but just because fans think he stinks now does not mean that AD's do.
I think for the next 2 games and the BE tournament we should start Dawson, JJJ, Burton, Taylor, and Gardner. Maybe they can give this team a spark, maybe not. We have nothing to lose!! If the normal starters don't like it, tough crap. They have had all season to prove who they are and that is a middle of the road BE team. I know this won't happen, but the thought at least excites me and would most likely be more enjoyable to watch.
Quote from: dgies9156 on March 02, 2014, 10:34:27 PM
4) Is Todd Mayo ever going to be the team leader we so badly wanted this year? I had high hopes for this year's team because I had hoped Todd Mayo would step up as Vander did last year. He didn't and still lacks some of the basic maturity to lead. Oh, and don't even think about going NBA Todd.
I think this is exactly the issue. I think this year has been the tale of two squads: A squad that can play pretty good, aggressive defense – but couldn't put the ball in the hole and a squad that could provide some streaky scoring – but had serious defensive liabilities.
There was no leadership that could bridge both squads. It would seem that Todd should have been able to step into that role, but I think Todd was playing for Todd. In some games, Todd was playing for Marquette. But, in other games it seems like Todd was playing for the NBA scouts and attempting to boost his resume.
Quote from: bradley center bat on March 03, 2014, 09:02:47 AM
If they end up in the NIT, fine! NIT is a good tourney.
Is this what we've come to?
Look, I'll watch MU in the NIT. I'll never stop caring.
But the NIT is not a good tournament.
Quote from: Bleuteaux on March 03, 2014, 09:41:57 AM
But the NIT is not a good tournament.
Not according to Mike Deane
Quote from: mubuzz on March 03, 2014, 09:14:09 AM
I think for the next 2 games and the BE tournament we should start Dawson, JJJ, Burton, Taylor, and Gardner. Maybe they can give this team a spark, maybe not. We have nothing to lose!! If the normal starters don't like it, tough crap. They have had all season to prove who they are and that is a middle of the road BE team. I know this won't happen, but the thought at least excites me and would most likely be more enjoyable to watch.
Love the idea and reasoning. I hate to continually pile on De. Wilson, but I've never seen so many ill-advised passes and decisions with the ball (volunterly dribbling towards a double team) as I did Sunday.
Lose at Providence, and you scrap that starting line-up in search of a spark for the future.
Quote from: The Sultan of Slurpery on March 03, 2014, 09:02:05 AM
Because the young guys aren't as good.
If that is the case, then Buzz may have made some serious mistakes recruiting them. If JJJ, Burton and DuWilson aren't significantly better than Juan, Jamil and Derrick are right now, we will have serious problems.
Don't scrap the starting lineup till we officially end up in the NIT.
Next year is definitely a rebuilding year. Bot sure what this year has become: How about Buzz fart Mulligan on his resume. So if this year is Buzz's mulligan "reset", what does he get for next year? Answer: Another Mulligan.
He's earned a couple mulligans. He gets a pass next year.
But we better be in the tournament in 2015-2016.
Quote from: willie warrior on March 03, 2014, 11:16:37 AM
Next year is definitely a rebuilding year. Bot sure what this year has become: How about Buzz fart Mulligan on his resume. So if this year is Buzz's mulligan "reset", what does he get for next year? Answer: Another Mulligan.
I think with better guard play we will make the tourney next year. We will have senior leadership in the guards and some really good newcomers. That equals success in college basketball. Though the frontcourt will be weaker which will lead to an early NCAA tourney exit.
I know it may sound cliché, but this year's team also lacked the heart/toughness of a typical Buzz Williams squad. Jake Thomas has been the only person on the team that has consistently dove for loose balls and rustled 100% of the time.
I wonder if the back to back sweet 16's and an elite eight gave these seniors a sense of entitlement, like the NCAA tournament was a given. I hope that next year's team plays like their hair is on fire. I can watch a bad team that works hard and plays tough, but this year's team was bad and and those that we thought were going to be leaders really didn't seem to care (i.e, J. Wilson's 9 total points the past 2 games.).
Quote from: madtownwarrior on March 03, 2014, 09:07:29 AM
agree with Kenosha - it's probably worse as Buzz seems to feel the criticism of the his team and players by the fans - at least he seems to periodically address it which I find a bad sign
i would disagree with both of you:
1. AD's think about what/who their donors will support...while buzz doesn't go from a great coach to a bad coach overnight, i'm sure they have some inside information that would certainly raise some questions (importance of juco's in his system, ability to get along with his superiors, etc.). i love buzz, but if i were hiring at a big name school this year would raise some concerns, and i'd certainly have a number of questions i'd want answered before giving him the keys to the program.
2. what coach is picked to have a top 15 team and conference champion team...then fails to make the NCAA, and doesn't feel heat from fans? if anything this should make buzz realize how he's built a reputation at MU that will allow him to work through down years. the heat he's feeling in milwaukee is much less than if he were at a blue blood program. if this is getting to him (and i don't think it is), then he should realize he has less of it here than anywhere else he could leave for.
Quote from: avid1010 on March 03, 2014, 11:58:56 AM
i would disagree with both of you:
1. AD's think about what/who their donors will support...while buzz doesn't go from a great coach to a bad coach overnight, i'm sure they have some inside information that would certainly raise some questions (importance of juco's in his system, ability to get along with his superiors, etc.). i love buzz, but if i were hiring at a big name school this year would raise some concerns, and i'd certainly have a number of questions i'd want answered before giving him the keys to the program.
2. what coach is picked to have a top 15 team and conference champion team...then fails to make the NCAA, and doesn't feel heat from fans? if anything this should make buzz realize how he's built a reputation at MU that will allow him to work through down years. the heat he's feeling in milwaukee is much less than if he were at a blue blood program. if this is getting to him (and i don't think it is), then he should realize he has less of it here than anywhere else he could leave for.
I would kill to feel any heat in Milwaukee right now.
Quote from: Wade for President on March 03, 2014, 10:23:27 AM
Love the idea and reasoning. I hate to continually pile on De. Wilson, but I've never seen so many ill-advised passes and decisions with the ball (volunterly dribbling towards a double team) as I did Sunday.
Lose at Providence, and you scrap that starting line-up in search of a spark for the future.
Yeah, I really see no downside as we have nothing to lose at this point. Maybe we catch lightning in a bottle!
Quote from: bradley center bat on March 03, 2014, 09:02:47 AM
If they end up in the NIT, fine! NIT is a good tourney.
If you enjoy watching teams who only finished above .500 because of the early cupcakes on their schedules.
Quote from: The Sultan of Slurpery on March 03, 2014, 09:02:05 AM
Because the young guys aren't as good.
So we can expect more of the same for the next three years?
By the way, who recruiting these guys?
Quote from: MarquetteDano on March 03, 2014, 11:48:20 AM
I think with better guard play we will make the tourney next year. We will have senior leadership in the guards and some really good newcomers. That equals success in college basketball. Though the frontcourt will be weaker which will lead to an early NCAA tourney exit.
Sure will be great if that happens Dano, but we had some really good newcomers this year, and Senior Leadership with 20 years experience for 4 guys, including one being a guard, and look what has happened. I do not believe that leadership next year will come from Mayo, maybe some from Derrick, but both he and Juan's games are extremely limited. And will Buzz ply those "really good newcomers" next year? Don't know--which is why next year could be more of the same.
Quote from: brandx on March 03, 2014, 12:52:12 PM
If you enjoy watching teams who only finished above .500 because of the early cupcakes on their schedules.
Disclaimer... I'm not defending the NIT, just more of an fyi. There's an automatic NIT entry for regular season conference champions who lost in their conf tournament and didn't gain an at-large. Last year's bracket consisted of 9 of those out of the 32 teams. Solid teams who would never would make an at-large, had winning seasons, then whiffed in their conference tourney.
Quote from: wardle2wade on March 03, 2014, 01:38:01 PM
Disclaimer... I'm not defending the NIT, just more of an fyi. There's an automatic NIT entry for regular season conference champions who lost in their conf tournament and didn't gain an at-large. Last year's bracket consisted of 9 of those out of the 32 teams. Solid teams who would never would make an at-large, had winning seasons, then whiffed in their conference tourney.
That only leaves 23-ish at large NIT teams. Interesting.
Quote from: wardle2wade on March 03, 2014, 01:38:01 PM
Disclaimer... I'm not defending the NIT, just more of an fyi. There's an automatic NIT entry for regular season conference champions who lost in their conf tournament and didn't gain an at-large. Last year's bracket consisted of 9 of those out of the 32 teams. Solid teams who would never would make an at-large, had winning seasons, then whiffed in their conference tourney.
So the strength of the NIT varies tremendously year to year based on how the auto bid conferences do
Quote from: avid1010 on March 03, 2014, 11:58:56 AM
i would disagree with both of you:
1. AD's think about what/who their donors will support...while buzz doesn't go from a great coach to a bad coach overnight, i'm sure they have some inside information that would certainly raise some questions (importance of juco's in his system, ability to get along with his superiors, etc.). i love buzz, but if i were hiring at a big name school this year would raise some concerns, and i'd certainly have a number of questions i'd want answered before giving him the keys to the program.
2. what coach is picked to have a top 15 team and conference champion team...then fails to make the NCAA, and doesn't feel heat from fans? if anything this should make buzz realize how he's built a reputation at MU that will allow him to work through down years. the heat he's feeling in milwaukee is much less than if he were at a blue blood program. if this is getting to him (and i don't think it is), then he should realize he has less of it here than anywhere else he could leave for.
Bruce Weber was run out of Champaign as a disgraced loser ... and immediately he was hired at Kansas State, where he was seen as a guy who took two programs to numerous NCAA bids, including one to the NCAA title game.
Tony Bennett got the heave-ho at Washington State after barely going .500 his final season and losing in the first round of the NIT ... and before March was over he was hired at Virginia, where he was seen as a guy who had made Washington State a viable program.
Tim Floyd was a total failure in the NBA and at USC, where he even had NCAA regulation people sniffing around before he was shown the door ... yet he wasn't unemployed very long before UTEP came a-callin', no doubt remembering the winning he did at Iowa State a decade and a half earlier.
Plenty more examples, too.
ADs and college presidents see what they want to see. I'm quite certain that more of them would look at Buzz as a guy who went S16-S16-E8 while putting together heralded recruiting classes for the future than a guy who missed the tourney in 2014.
Quote from: mubuzz on March 03, 2014, 09:14:09 AM
I think for the next 2 games and the BE tournament we should start Dawson, JJJ, Burton, Taylor, and Gardner. Maybe they can give this team a spark, maybe not. We have nothing to lose!! If the normal starters don't like it, tough crap. They have had all season to prove who they are and that is a middle of the road BE team. I know this won't happen, but the thought at least excites me and would most likely be more enjoyable to watch.
It's a fan board, and you are allowed to think whatever you want to think. But coaches don't think like this.
Coaches think, "I'm going to go with the lineup that helped me win five of six games before we stunk out the gym in Philly."
I'm not saying you're wrong and Buzz is right. Hell, I'd like to see that lineup, too, just for a change of scenery.
I'm just telling you that coaches don't think like fans, and that's a very, very, very good thing.
I'm not giving up on this year as we still have a small chance and if by chance we don't make the NCAA then I will follow and root for a NIT Championship. The off-season is way too long.
For next year, I am hoping for the following:
1. Steve Taylor becomes the beast down low that he showed a glimpse of his freshmen year.
2. De. Wilson takes about 10,000 shots this summer and is confident and able to shoot and hit a mid-range jumper with consistency
3. That Duane Wilson and Dawson have an all-round game that allows them to get at least a combined 15 minutes of pg play a game in addition to some off-guard minutes.
4. That we get consistent 3 point shooting from 3 of our players between Mayo, JJJ, Dawson, Duane Wilson and Hill. We need to as a team to be hitting at least 7 threes a game consistently and at a good percentage.
5. That Luke Fisher is the real deal
6. That Burton gets a much better understanding of what is a good shot. I am not sold on him yet as he is a volume shooter who needs to improve on his all around game.
Quote from: MU82 on March 03, 2014, 01:46:54 PM
Bruce Weber was run out of Champaign as a disgraced loser ... and immediately he was hired at Kansas State, where he was seen as a guy who took two programs to numerous NCAA bids, including one to the NCAA title game.
Tony Bennett got the heave-ho at Washington State after barely going .500 his final season and losing in the first round of the NIT ... and before March was over he was hired at Virginia, where he was seen as a guy who had made Washington State a viable program.
Tim Floyd was a total failure in the NBA and at USC, where he even had NCAA regulation people sniffing around before he was shown the door ... yet he wasn't unemployed very long before UTEP came a-callin', no doubt remembering the winning he did at Iowa State a decade and a half earlier.
Plenty more examples, too.
ADs and college presidents see what they want to see. I'm quite certain that more of them would look at Buzz as a guy who went S16-S16-E8 while putting together heralded recruiting classes for the future than a guy who missed the tourney in 2014.
Bennett was definitely not given the "heave-ho" from Washington State.
Quote from: mufanatic on March 03, 2014, 02:06:35 PM
I'm not giving up on this year as we still have a small chance and if by chance we don't make the NCAA then I will follow and root for a NIT Championship. The off-season is way too long.
For next year, I am hoping for the following:
1. Steve Taylor becomes the beast down low that he showed a glimpse of his freshmen year.
2. De. Wilson takes about 10,000 shots this summer and is confident and able to shoot and hit a mid-range jumper with consistency
3. That Duane Wilson and Dawson have an all-round game that allows them to get at least a combined 15 minutes of pg play a game in addition to some off-guard minutes.
4. That we get consistent 3 point shooting from 3 of our players between Mayo, JJJ, Dawson, Duane Wilson and Hill. We need to as a team to be hitting at least 7 threes a game consistently and at a good percentage.
5. That Luke Fisher is the real deal
6. That Burton gets a much better understanding of what is a good shot. I am not sold on him yet as he is a volume shooter who needs to improve on his all around game.
These are all realistic things to hope for. Much more realistic than hoping Derrick goes back to being a 10 mpg guy, because that's not gonna happen. Maybe Vander would be willing to work with him!
I especially agree with No. 4. In today's NCAA basketball, it's very difficult to win when you open a game losing 18-0 or 27-0 or 33-0 from the 3-point line.
Quote from: The Equalizer on March 03, 2014, 02:29:14 PM
Bennett was definitely not given the "heave-ho" from Washington State.
You're right and I shouldn't have said so.
Doesn't change the point that the Virginia administration wasn't the least bit scared off by his bad final season at Washington State, just as Whatever U. wouldn't be hesitant to hire Buzz after this season.
Quote from: mufanatic on March 03, 2014, 02:06:35 PM
I'm not giving up on this year as we still have a small chance and if by chance we don't make the NCAA then I will follow and root for a NIT Championship. The off-season is way too long.
For next year, I am hoping for the following:
1. Steve Taylor becomes the beast down low that he showed a glimpse of his freshmen year.
2. De. Wilson takes about 10,000 shots this summer and is confident and able to shoot and hit a mid-range jumper with consistency
3. That Duane Wilson and Dawson have an all-round game that allows them to get at least a combined 15 minutes of pg play a game in addition to some off-guard minutes.
4. That we get consistent 3 point shooting from 3 of our players between Mayo, JJJ, Dawson, Duane Wilson and Hill. We need to as a team to be hitting at least 7 threes a game consistently and at a good percentage.
5. That Luke Fisher is the real deal
6. That Burton gets a much better understanding of what is a good shot. I am not sold on him yet as he is a volume shooter who needs to improve on his all around game.
Derrick Wilson will be going into his sr year next year. If he was a freshman or sophomore I could see him making the jump into a decent shooter. He could shoot a million jump shots this summer and I don't think it would do any good. He is what he is. The most telling stat is he is a 47 percent ft shooter...I mean if he's going to improve anything he could have worked on that to become at least respectable, but for whatever reason he's still terrible at that.
Quote from: MU82 on March 03, 2014, 01:46:54 PM
Tony Bennett got the heave-ho at Washington State after barely going .500 his final season and losing in the first round of the NIT ... and before March was over he was hired at Virginia, where he was seen as a guy who had made Washington State a viable program.
Tony Bennett was NOT fired by Wazzou.
Quote from: MU82 on March 03, 2014, 01:46:54 PM
Bruce Weber was run out of Champaign as a disgraced loser ... and immediately he was hired at Kansas State, where he was seen as a guy who took two programs to numerous NCAA bids, including one to the NCAA title game.
Tony Bennett got the heave-ho at Washington State after barely going .500 his final season and losing in the first round of the NIT ... and before March was over he was hired at Virginia, where he was seen as a guy who had made Washington State a viable program.
Tim Floyd was a total failure in the NBA and at USC, where he even had NCAA regulation people sniffing around before he was shown the door ... yet he wasn't unemployed very long before UTEP came a-callin', no doubt remembering the winning he did at Iowa State a decade and a half earlier.
Plenty more examples, too.
ADs and college presidents see what they want to see. I'm quite certain that more of them would look at Buzz as a guy who went S16-S16-E8 while putting together heralded recruiting classes for the future than a guy who missed the tourney in 2014.
Great post - couldn't agree more
Quote from: MU82 on March 03, 2014, 01:46:54 PM
Bruce Weber was run out of Champaign as a disgraced loser ... and immediately he was hired at Kansas State, where he was seen as a guy who took two programs to numerous NCAA bids, including one to the NCAA title game.
Tony Bennett got the heave-ho at Washington State after barely going .500 his final season and losing in the first round of the NIT ... and before March was over he was hired at Virginia, where he was seen as a guy who had made Washington State a viable program.
Tim Floyd was a total failure in the NBA and at USC, where he even had NCAA regulation people sniffing around before he was shown the door ... yet he wasn't unemployed very long before UTEP came a-callin', no doubt remembering the winning he did at Iowa State a decade and a half earlier.
Plenty more examples, too.
ADs and college presidents see what they want to see. I'm quite certain that more of them would look at Buzz as a guy who went S16-S16-E8 while putting together heralded recruiting classes for the future than a guy who missed the tourney in 2014.
i have no doubt that buzz could get a job at programs in similar situations to UVA, K-St, or UTEP (when they hired their respective coaches) tomorrow...
i'm a big buzz fan, but this year raises questions that previously might not have been asked. is his stock as hot as it was last year...no way. we can name plenty of coaches that were hot names for bigger programs, who dropped off that radar after some rough years. one bad year does raise questions, and it makes it more difficult to the sell the coach to the donors that are going to fund the hire. no doubt in my mind that a buzz+UCLA match would have been easier to sell to the donors last year than this year.
Quote from: mufanatic on March 03, 2014, 02:06:35 PM
6. That Burton gets a much better understanding of what is a good shot. I am not sold on him yet as he is a volume shooter who needs to improve on his all around game.
You should probably jump on the Deonte stock right now. He is going to be a monster next year. Would not surprise me in the least if he was able to leave MU after junior year and get drafted in first round. Rare blend of girth and athleticism - a la Charles Barkley.
Being a volume shooter isn't a bad thing - especially when you have a relatively high shooting percentage. Deonte can get a shot every single time down the floor - not all guys can do that at this level. He is a match up nightmare for opposing coaches...and I'm going to say will be the most fun and dominant player to watch at MU since Wade...
Quote from: ecompt on March 03, 2014, 11:07:21 AM
If that is the case, then Buzz may have made some serious mistakes recruiting them. If JJJ, Burton and DuWilson aren't significantly better than Juan, Jamil and Derrick are right now, we will have serious problems.
They have higher ceilings. That doesn't mean they are better right now.
Quote from: MU82 on March 03, 2014, 01:50:35 PM
It's a fan board, and you are allowed to think whatever you want to think. But coaches don't think like this.
Coaches think, "I'm going to go with the lineup that helped me win five of six games before we stunk out the gym in Philly."
I'm not saying you're wrong and Buzz is right. Hell, I'd like to see that lineup, too, just for a change of scenery.
I'm just telling you that coaches don't think like fans, and that's a very, very, very good thing.
Well I wish coaches thought more pragmatically: "After losing to Butler, I see the ceiling for this team. I'm not going to repeat the same thing and hope for a different outcome. My only hope of making a bid is winning the conference tourney. This current lineup has a very slim chance of meeting that goal. Start Dawson (and maybe Burton) now and we get real-game experience and more game film to analyze. Plus, they'll have more experience come next season."
What yes-men were telling our coach that our typical lineup would take us to an at-large bid? SMH, this season has been very frustrating.
Quote from: Ners on March 03, 2014, 04:49:11 PM
You should probably jump on the Deonte stock right now. He is going to be a monster next year. Would not surprise me in the least if he was able to leave MU after junior year and get drafted in first round. Rare blend of girth and athleticism - a la Charles Barkley.
Being a volume shooter isn't a bad thing - especially when you have a relatively high shooting percentage. Deonte can get a shot every single time down the floor - not all guys can do that at this level. He is a match up nightmare for opposing coaches...and I'm going to say will be the most fun and dominant player to watch at MU since Wade...
He is going to need a position. The NBA doesn't have a lot of 6'4 combination forwards.
Quote from: tower912 on March 03, 2014, 05:31:32 PM
He is going to need a position. The NBA doesn't have a lot of 6'4 combination forwards.
Charles Barkley was 6'5" and he seemed to do just fine.
Quote from: mubuzz on March 03, 2014, 05:33:41 PM
Charles Barkley was 6'5" and he seemed to do just fine.
1. Deonte Burton might grow up to be Charles Barkley. He's not there yet.
2. Barkley's NBA was a different era than this NBA. He was at his peak 20 years ago.
Quote from: The Sultan of Slurpery on March 03, 2014, 05:36:12 PM
1. Deonte Burton might grow up to be Charles Barkley. He's not there yet.
2. Barkley's NBA was a different era than this NBA. He was at his peak 20 years ago.
He's a freshman and obviously he's not there yet...if anything size is less of a factor now than in Barkley's heyday. The days of giant physical centers are gone in the NBA. It's turning into more of the Euro center which should only help his cause.
From the current NBA rosters, please list the 6'4 forwards. You can't. You are just as likely to be able to list the 6'8, 290 lb post players who can barely dunk and can't guard on the perimeter. Deonte isn't going to the league early. Heck, Lazar, who was much more versatile and could guard every position, tried to make a go of it as a shooting guard.
Quote from: tower912 on March 03, 2014, 05:43:56 PM
From the current NBA rosters, please list the 6'4 forwards. You can't. You are just as likely to be able to list the 6'8, 290 lb post players who can barely dunk and can't guard on the perimeter. Deonte isn't going to the league early. Heck, Lazar, who was much more versatile and could guard every position, tried to make a go of it as a shooting guard.
Deonte has a unique body type. I never said he was going to the NBA early. Barkley had a similar body build in college...would you have said then that a 6'5" power forward would be one of the 50 greatest NBA players of all time? And he's actually 6'4" and three quarters.
You are correct. NERS said he could go early. I get you two confused sometimes. And after watching Barkley in college, his NBA career did not surprise me. But if you are going to draw a more apt comparison from that era, think Roosevelt Chapman from Dayton. A more modern comparison could be a smaller Alando Tucker from Wisconsin. (we can only hope). Or Lazar. If he can become more relentless on the boards, perhaps David Boone.
Height matters in the NBA. The problem for guys like Barkley is that he could always step out and shoot over big guys, and physically overpower smaller guys. The problem is that now big guys can guard away from the hoop, and smaller guys are physically bigger than 20 years ago.
Barkley is a player that could play in any era. I am just not sure he is as dominant.
Quote from: tower912 on March 03, 2014, 05:53:44 PM
You are correct. NERS said he could go early. I get you two confused sometimes. And after watching Barkley in college, his NBA career did not surprise me. But if you are going to draw a more apt comparison from that era, think Roosevelt Chapman from Dayton. A more modern comparison could be a smaller Alando Tucker from Wisconsin. (we can only hope). Or Lazar. If he can become more relentless on the boards, perhaps David Boone.
I think a good comparison is PJ Tucker from Texas. Deonte is slightly more ripped but they are very similar.
Quote from: tower912 on March 03, 2014, 05:43:56 PM
From the current NBA rosters, please list the 6'4 forwards. You can't. You are just as likely to be able to list the 6'8, 290 lb post players who can barely dunk and can't guard on the perimeter. Deonte isn't going to the league early. Heck, Lazar, who was much more versatile and could guard every position, tried to make a go of it as a shooting guard.
You can't coach this (one of the few truly memorable and happy moments of this season - and guy was 6'9" 240 he punched on.):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kuIm86iAv0
Lazar Hayward as much as we all loved him, couldn't dream of doing what Burton did in that video, or being close to the athlete/specimen Burton his.
Deonte plays with a great rhythm..has a great feel for how to put defenders on skates, with his hesitation/shake & bake - and then has a body that just ping pongs people off of him...and he's just a freshman at this time.
Per Ken Pom - he ranks as a "go to guy" the only one on the team...he is an absolute force on the floor and will be a stud by the time he's a junior...and given what he's shown as a freshman in his limited opportunity...it shows me enough to know that he'll very likely have the opportunity to go pro by end of his junior year..and will be most exciting player we have had at MU since DWade..
For those suggesting that we play for the future, do you really think Buzz would not play the seniors on Senior Night? Regardless of your opinion on our hopes for this season, you let you seniors play on senior night.
I have seen enough from our team to know it is not likely that we can win either 4 in a row now or 3 in a row in NYC. However, it I still feel it is more likely that the seniors can win it for us than it is for the freshmen to suddenly get hot and carry us to the championship. Until we are officially dead, I want us to play for this season.
That being said, I don't care about the NIT. If we end up there, play the youngsters and get them some valuable postseason experience.
Quote from: RBSC on March 03, 2014, 09:16:57 AM
I think this is exactly the issue. I think this year has been the tale of two squads: A squad that can play pretty good, aggressive defense – but couldn't put the ball in the hole and a squad that could provide some streaky scoring – but had serious defensive liabilities.
There was no leadership that could bridge both squads. It would seem that Todd should have been able to step into that role, but I think Todd was playing for Todd. In some games, Todd was playing for Marquette. But, in other games it seems like Todd was playing for the NBA scouts and attempting to boost his resume.
I disagree with the perception that Todd is selfish. I would be interested in why you think that he is. Now, if you expect Todd to be a leader, I think you will be disappointed. that is not his personality. He is a quiet expressionless guy. Just who he is. It doesn't mean he is selfish or anything else. He just is who he is.
I don't think there is any doubt who the leaders on this team will be next year. It will be Derrick and Juan. they both have the personalities to do it. I expect neither will play more that 20 minutes or so a game next year, but they will be starters and they will set the tone for the team. And I think that will be a big improvement next year.
None of this years seniors were natural leaders other than maybe Jake, but as a guy who came as a walk-on, I don't know if he felt that the role was open to him.
Quote from: mubuzz on March 03, 2014, 06:01:56 PM
I think a good comparison is PJ Tucker from Texas. Deonte is slightly more ripped but they are very similar.
PJ Tucker averaged 6.8 boards in 22.5 minutes per game as an 18 y.o. frosh.
Barkley averaged 9.8 boards in 26.8 minutes per game as an 18 y.o. frosh
Burton is averaging 2.1 boards in 11.9 minutes per game as a 20 y.o. frosh
He may be similar in height and build to Tucker and Barkley but I never understood the comparisons to those two (especially Barkley) as he simply does not rebound even close to the rate those 2 players did during their Freshman seasons and subsequent seasons. Barkley was an exceptional rebounder, one of the best in history especially considering his stature. Love Burton and clearly see his potential and upside, but he doesn't rebound well at this stage of his career to be considered at the level of sir charles or even Tuck who went pro after his Junior year and was drafted in the 2nd round at the same age that D-Bo is now. (Barkley also turned pro at 20)
With his athleticism and frame he should be more active and effective on the glass. Hopefully with more P.T. he will improve his rebounding which is essential to help him overcome his height-issue to be considered for the next level.
I don't think this team suffers from a lack of leadership. It suffers from a lack of good, well rounded players.
Quote from: brandx on March 03, 2014, 06:43:09 PM
I disagree with the perception that Todd is selfish. I would be interested in why you think that he is. Now, if you expect Todd to be a leader, I think you will be disappointed. that is not his personality. He is a quiet expressionless guy. Just who he is. It doesn't mean he is selfish or anything else. He just is who he is.
I don't think there is any doubt who the leaders on this team will be next year. It will be Derrick and Juan. they both have the personalities to do it. I expect neither will play more that 20 minutes or so a game next year, but they will be starters and they will set the tone for the team. And I think that will be a big improvement next year.
None of this years seniors were natural leaders other than maybe Jake, but as a guy who came as a walk-on, I don't know if he felt that the role was open to him.
If there were leadership on the team this year in the way of Jamil or Davante - they would have requested a closed door meeting with Buzz and vented their frustrations with the backcourt...and requested a change. Highly doubt within the culture Buzz creates, that they would feel comfortable doing this as it could be perceived as not being a good teammate..then again...think Buzz also promotes candor as well too..but we know Wainwright was quoted in Journal Sentinel as saying he and other assistant (not Autry) were imploring Todd to go to Buzz and ask for more PT, long stretches of run..yet at the time of that quote...Todd hadn't done so. A basketball team, like any organization...can at times have a lot of politics, and chemistry issues to navigate.
Quote from: The Sultan of Slurpery on March 03, 2014, 06:56:03 PM
I don't think this team suffers from a lack of leadership. It suffers from a lack of good, well rounded players.
Gardner meets your roundness suffering.
Quote from: Ners on March 03, 2014, 07:00:58 PM
If there were leadership on the team this year in the way of Jamil or Davante - they would have requested a closed door meeting with Buzz and vented their frustrations with the backcourt...and requested a change.
Will you just stop. Do you really think that Davante and Jamil think the back ups are better than the current starters?
Quote from: Sir Lawrence on March 03, 2014, 07:01:48 PM
Gardner meets your roundness suffering.
That is true....
Quote from: The Sultan of Slurpery on March 03, 2014, 07:02:38 PM
Will you just stop. Do you really think that Davante and Jamil think the back ups are better than the current starters?
On BE media day, didn't Davante say that Dawson was the best PG? I can't find the link, but I'm pretty sure that he said that, which came to a shocker to all of us at the time.
Quote from: The Sultan of Slurpery on March 03, 2014, 07:02:38 PM
Will you just stop. Do you really think that Davante and Jamil think the back ups are better than the current starters?
I would be willing to bet that Davante would rather have Dawson starting at pg if he had a choice. And who really cares what Jamil thinks, the only thing he should be worried about is getting his game together.
Quote from: BossplayaOtto on March 03, 2014, 06:54:33 PM
PJ Tucker averaged 6.8 boards in 22.5 minutes per game as an 18 y.o. frosh.
Barkley averaged 9.8 boards in 26.8 minutes per game as an 18 y.o. frosh
Burton is averaging 2.1 boards in 11.9 minutes per game as a 20 y.o. frosh
He may be similar in height and build to Tucker and Barkley but I never understood the comparisons to those two (especially Barkley) as he simply does not rebound even close to the rate those 2 players did during their Freshman seasons and subsequent seasons. Barkley was an exceptional rebounder, one of the best in history especially considering his stature. Love Burton and clearly see his potential and upside, but he doesn't rebound well at this stage of his career to be considered at the level of sir charles or even Tuck who went pro after his Junior year and was drafted in the 2nd round at the same age that D-Bo is now. (Barkley also turned pro at 20)
With his athleticism and frame he should be more active and effective on the glass. Hopefully with more P.T. he will improve his rebounding which is essential to help him overcome his height-issue to be considered for the next level.
Good stats and numbers...obviously Burton's minutes are way limited compared to those guys as freshman..and Deonte (didn't realize he was already 20), does have more age on Tucker/Barkley as freshman....and of course Sir Charles was an all time great, Top 50 NBA player...so that's a long way to go....and I certainly don't want to suggest Deonte would ever have that kind of NBA career...but the combination of size, strength, and explosiveness is hard to find in players..and Barkley was a reference a commentator made earlier in the year that I thought was great.
I do think we'll see more rebounding from Deonte as he gets good minutes..and would think that as a junior if he's getting 25-30 minutes, he'll pull down 8 rebounds + per game..
Quote from: Ners on March 03, 2014, 07:00:58 PM
If there were leadership on the team this year in the way of Jamil or Davante - they would have requested a closed door meeting with Buzz and vented their frustrations with the backcourt...and requested a change. Highly doubt within the culture Buzz creates, that they would feel comfortable doing this as it could be perceived as not being a good teammate..then again...think Buzz also promotes candor as well too..but we know Wainwright was quoted in Journal Sentinel as saying he and other assistant (not Autry) were imploring Todd to go to Buzz and ask for my PT, long stretches of run..yet at the time of that quote...Todd hadn't done so. A basketball team, like any organization...can at times have a lot of politics, and chemistry issues to navigate.
I'm curious about this.
I wonder to what extent the assistants and others are yes-men
Quote from: ElDonBDon on March 03, 2014, 07:04:47 PM
On BE media day, didn't Davante say that Dawson was the best PG? I can't find the link, but I'm pretty sure that he said that, which came to a shocker to all of us at the time.
He was asked which freshman impressed him the most - and he said Dawson...
Quote from: The Sultan of Slurpery on March 03, 2014, 07:02:38 PM
Will you just stop. Do you really think that Davante and Jamil think the back ups are better than the current starters?
Absolutely...without question...to the extent that Dawson's ability/willingness to shoot from distance (and be a threat to shoot and slash with a midrange game in the way of Todd) would open up the floor a great deal for Jamil and Davante to operate...
You can see the frustration written all over the face of Davante and Jamil at many points this season...that simply wasn't there last year...
nm
Quote from: Ners on March 03, 2014, 07:09:56 PM
Absolutely...without question...to the extent that Dawson's ability/willingness to shoot from distance (and be a threat to shoot and slash with a midrange game in the way of Todd) would open up the floor a great deal for Jamil and Davante to operate...
I think you are out of your mind. They see practice. They see who's winning the battles.
You continue to act if there aren't legitimate, on court reasons why Buzz plays the players he does.
Quote from: The Sultan of Slurpery on March 03, 2014, 07:16:35 PM
I think you are out of your mind. They see practice. They see who's winning the battles.
You continue to act if there aren't legitimate, on court reasons why Buzz plays the players he does.
Do you honestly think when the team is watching film, Davante doesn't think about the extra attention he gets from Derrick's defender?
Quote from: mubuzz on March 03, 2014, 07:21:20 PM
Do you honestly think when the team is watching film, Davante doesn't think about the extra attention he gets from Derrick's defender?
I honestly think that he sees the difference every day in practice.
This is just getting ridiculous. Now the line is "If this team had senior leadership they would ask for a change in the backcourt."
Really, really pathetic fanbase.
Seriously, I love this narrative. How can I possibly rip everyone for not playing the freshmen....
The backcourt sucks....Buzz is too stubborn...and the seniors are crappy leaders for not standing up to Buzz.
Are you f*cking for real???
I have pretty much given up on our NCAA streak, but I still have hope that we can continue our 20 win season streak, so the season is not over.
Quote from: The Sultan of Slurpery on March 03, 2014, 07:16:35 PM
I think you are out of your mind. They see practice. They see who's winning the battles.
You continue to act if there aren't legitimate, on court reasons why Buzz plays the players he does.
All I know is what I see in games, and I'm still trying to find legitimate, on court reasons, based on the data provided - that Derrick Wilson is earning all 30.3 minutes per game he gets...leading minute getter on the team. This team in no way would have a worse record at this point if his minutes were slashed to 20...and they'd given Dawson 20. Every other imaginable lineup tinker has been played with...except to greatly reduce Derrick's role.
Quote from: The Sultan of Slurpery on March 03, 2014, 07:35:44 PM
Really, really pathetic fanbase.
Easy now. Scoop represents less than 1% of the Marquette fanbase. And those who think the Seniors should ask Buzz to replace the backcourt is less than....well...it's more than 1%...but not most of us.
And as misguided as I think these posts are, they are coming from a place of wanting our team to be the best.
But dear God, the only good thing about basketball season being over will be a break from the Dawson v. Derrick arguement.
Quote from: Ners on March 03, 2014, 07:42:30 PM
All I know is what I see in games, and I'm still trying to find legitimate, on court reasons, based on the data provided - that Derrick Wilson is earning all 30.3 minutes per game he gets...leading minute getter on the team. This team in no way would have a worse record at this point if his minutes were slashed to 20...and they'd given Dawson 20. Every other imaginable lineup tinker has been played with...except to greatly reduce Derrick's role.
Right....
ALL....YOU....KNOWIn other words an incomplete picture.
Quote from: The Sultan of Slurpery on March 03, 2014, 07:46:28 PM
Right....
ALL....YOU....KNOW
In other words an incomplete picture.
but you just claim buzz is right because he sees them every day in practice. so, if you want to take the stance then all we can really judge buzz off of is wins and losses, in which case he sucks this year.
i think he's done an awful job with his rotations this year, and i do think he's stubborn. i think he has set a precedence that (for the most part) only the best defenders are going to play...and as a result we have the best defense in the BEAST this year...
my issue is that the players on the bench are better offensive players...so a coach should be able to have them playing defense by this time in the year.
Sultan and Ners,
Derrick Wilson:
Offensive Rtg: 100.6 - Marquette averages 69.1 possessions/game meaning the team would score 69.5 pts/game with Wilson at PG.
Defensive Rtg: 102.7 - Marquette allows 66.3 possessions/game meaning the team would give up 68.1 pts/game with Wilson at PG.
True shooting % (an efficient shooting % that accounts for the difficulty of 2pt, 3pt, and FT shots): 43.2%
John Dawson:
Offensive Rtg: 87.6 - Marquette averages 69.1 possessions/game meaning the team would score 60.5 pts/game with Dawson at PG.
Defensive Rtg: 105.2 - Marquette allows 66.3 possessions/game meaning the team would give up 69.7 pts/game with Dawson at PG.
True shooting % (an efficient shooting % that accounts for the difficulty of 2pt, 3pt, and FT shots): 42.7%
Now we know that there are other players that play along side these guys but the numbers are pretty soundly in Derrick Wilson's favor as far as who deserves the vast majority of minutes this year at PG.
That may point to a bigger problem but still here's the data. I included the true shooting percentage stat as it accounts for both the difficulty and difference between the three types of shots a player could take and comes up with a percentage reflecting their overall shooting.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on March 03, 2014, 08:08:27 PM
Sultan and Ners,
Derrick Wilson:
Offensive Rtg: 100.6 - Marquette averages 69.1 possessions/game meaning the team would score 69.5 pts/game with Wilson at PG.
Defensive Rtg: 102.7 - Marquette allows 66.3 possessions/game meaning the team would give up 68.1 pts/game with Wilson at PG.
True shooting % (an efficient shooting % that accounts for the difficulty of 2pt, 3pt, and FT shots): 43.2%
John Dawson:
Offensive Rtg: 87.6 - Marquette averages 69.1 possessions/game meaning the team would score 60.5 pts/game with Dawson at PG.
Defensive Rtg: 105.2 - Marquette allows 66.3 possessions/game meaning the team would give up 69.7 pts/game with Dawson at PG.
True shooting % (an efficient shooting % that accounts for the difficulty of 2pt, 3pt, and FT shots): 42.7%
Now we know that there are other players that play along side these guys but the numbers are pretty soundly in Derrick Wilson's favor as far as who deserves the vast majority of minutes this year at PG.
That may point to a bigger problem but still here's the data. I included the true shooting percentage stat as it accounts for both the difficulty and difference between the three types of shots a player could take and comes up with a percentage reflecting their overall shooting.
Derrick shoots .401 from the field, .077 from three, and .461 from the line. I am failing to understand the true shooting percent? The difficulty of the shot is how it reads...who determines this in all seriousness? I like stats, but this doesn't make sense to me...it also doesn't take into account floor spacing. Maybe I am just confused.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on March 03, 2014, 08:08:27 PM
Sultan and Ners,
Derrick Wilson:
Offensive Rtg: 100.6 - Marquette averages 69.1 possessions/game meaning the team would score 69.5 pts/game with Wilson at PG.
Defensive Rtg: 102.7 - Marquette allows 66.3 possessions/game meaning the team would give up 68.1 pts/game with Wilson at PG.
True shooting % (an efficient shooting % that accounts for the difficulty of 2pt, 3pt, and FT shots): 43.2%
John Dawson:
Offensive Rtg: 87.6 - Marquette averages 69.1 possessions/game meaning the team would score 60.5 pts/game with Dawson at PG.
Defensive Rtg: 105.2 - Marquette allows 66.3 possessions/game meaning the team would give up 69.7 pts/game with Dawson at PG.
True shooting % (an efficient shooting % that accounts for the difficulty of 2pt, 3pt, and FT shots): 42.7%
Now we know that there are other players that play along side these guys but the numbers are pretty soundly in Derrick Wilson's favor as far as who deserves the vast majority of minutes this year at PG.
That may point to a bigger problem but still here's the data. I included the true shooting percentage stat as it accounts for both the difficulty and difference between the three types of shots a player could take and comes up with a percentage reflecting their overall shooting.
And of course one's guys stats are from long, consistent stretches of playing time..max minutes...as a junior...
And the other guy's stats are comprised from wildly inconsistent stretches of playing time ranging from :30 seconds to the high end of 12:00, with most stints of 2-3:30 seconds...AS A FRESHMAN.
And as for true shooting percentage stat - I would wager any sum of money that it suggests making a free throw is the least degree of difficulty over a 3 pointer, or 2 pointer...so it is lightly weighted...yet the fact the easiest shot - a FREE throw - is an area where we have a 47% shooter - that points to the irony of the stat..and actually barely effects Derrick's True Shooting percentage as it isn't weighed heavily at all...and not to mention he won't take 3 point shots, or midrange shots, and will only shoot from point blank range.
And you can look at these head to head stats and they have value to an extent...yet what can't be measured is how does Derrick's complete lack of any kind of perimeter game, negatively affect the other 4 guys on the floor?? I'd say GREATLY...and evidence of where this could be said was the Seton Hall game where everyone agreed Dawson was TERRIBLE - the one true game he looked awful - yet in his time on the floor..a 12 minute stretch...our lead didn't shrink..and we grew it by 2 points over when he entered the game. Why?? Because the THREAT alone of a guy being able to make a 3, much less take one keeps the defense honest.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on March 03, 2014, 08:08:27 PM
Sultan and Ners,
Derrick Wilson:
Offensive Rtg: 100.6 - Marquette averages 69.1 possessions/game meaning the team would score 69.5 pts/game with Wilson at PG.
Defensive Rtg: 102.7 - Marquette allows 66.3 possessions/game meaning the team would give up 68.1 pts/game with Wilson at PG.
True shooting % (an efficient shooting % that accounts for the difficulty of 2pt, 3pt, and FT shots): 43.2%
John Dawson:
Offensive Rtg: 87.6 - Marquette averages 69.1 possessions/game meaning the team would score 60.5 pts/game with Dawson at PG.
Defensive Rtg: 105.2 - Marquette allows 66.3 possessions/game meaning the team would give up 69.7 pts/game with Dawson at PG.
True shooting % (an efficient shooting % that accounts for the difficulty of 2pt, 3pt, and FT shots): 42.7%
Now we know that there are other players that play along side these guys but the numbers are pretty soundly in Derrick Wilson's favor as far as who deserves the vast majority of minutes this year at PG.
That may point to a bigger problem but still here's the data. I included the true shooting percentage stat as it accounts for both the difficulty and difference between the three types of shots a player could take and comes up with a percentage reflecting their overall shooting.
(http://i497.photobucket.com/albums/rr338/CaptainTwunt/surprised_bulge.gif)
Quote from: avid1010 on March 03, 2014, 07:57:20 PM
but you just claim buzz is right because he sees them every day in practice. so, if you want to take the stance then all we can really judge buzz off of is wins and losses, in which case he sucks this year.
i think he's done an awful job with his rotations this year, and i do think he's stubborn. i think he has set a precedence that (for the most part) only the best defenders are going to play...and as a result we have the best defense in the BEAST this year...
my issue is that the players on the bench are better offensive players...so a coach should be able to have them playing defense by this time in the year.
That very well might be the case. But that is a different argument entirely. That isn't the argument that Buzz is simply sitting his better players...that is that those with a higher ceiling haven't done what they need to do. That might be coaching. It might be on them.
Quote from: Ners on March 03, 2014, 08:25:34 PM
And of course one's guys stats are from long, consistent stretches of playing time..max minutes...as a junior...
And the other guy's stats are comprised from wildly inconsistent stretches of playing time ranging from :30 seconds to the high end of 12:00, with most stints of 2-3:30 seconds...AS A FRESHMAN.
And as for true shooting percentage stat - I would wager any sum of money that it suggests making a free throw is the least degree of difficulty over a 3 pointer, or 2 pointer...so it is lightly weighted...yet the fact the easiest shot - a FREE throw - is an area where we have a 47% shooter - that points to the irony of the stat..and actually barely effects Derrick's True Shooting percentage as it isn't weighed heavily at all...and not to mention he won't take 3 point shots, or midrange shots, and will only shoot from point blank range.
And you can look at these head to head stats and they have value to an extent...yet what can't be measured is how does Derrick's complete lack of any kind of perimeter game, negatively affect the other 4 guys on the floor?? I'd say GREATLY...and evidence of where this could be said was the Seton Hall game where everyone agreed Dawson was TERRIBLE - the one true game he looked awful - yet in his time on the floor..a 12 minute stretch...our lead didn't shrink..and we grew it by 2 points over when he entered the game. Why?? Because the THREAT alone of a guy being able to make a 3, much less take one keeps the defense honest.
Ners -
Throw true shooting % out if you wish.
Your second paragraph doesn't make any sense. OF COURSE THERE ARE FOUR OTHER PLAYERS ON THE FLOOR, which is what makes Offensive RTG more accurate. It shows each player's impact on the offense when they are on the court. Does a player like Gardner boost Derrick's ORtg? Of course he does but he affects every player who plays with him positively as well (and without him we'd be truly an abysmal offensive team). The fact is, if you take both Wilson and Dawson and divide they're ORtg by the team's average offensive possessions the team averages about nine points a game better with Wilson at the helm compared to Dawson.
And both Wilson and Dawson have played with the starters as well as in garbage time, so you can't make the argument Dawson doesn't play with the best players as most of his minutes have come with our better guys.
Quote from: Ners on March 03, 2014, 08:25:34 PM
And you can look at these head to head stats and they have value to an extent...yet what can't be measured is how does Derrick's complete lack of any kind of perimeter game, negatively affect the other 4 guys on the floor?? I'd say GREATLY...and evidence of where this could be said was the Seton Hall game where everyone agreed Dawson was TERRIBLE - the one true game he looked awful - yet in his time on the floor..a 12 minute stretch...our lead didn't shrink..and we grew it by 2 points over when he entered the game. Why?? Because the THREAT alone of a guy being able to make a 3, much less take one keeps the defense honest.
Oh good lord.
This is exactly why no one should engage you. When Dawson plays like sh*t, his "threat" still makes the team better. When Derrick actually plays well, his teammates excel despite him.
The stats show it. Buzz knows it. Derrick is better right now.
He might not be next year...but next year isn't here yet.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on March 03, 2014, 08:08:27 PM
Sultan and Ners,
Derrick Wilson:
Offensive Rtg: 100.6 - Marquette averages 69.1 possessions/game meaning the team would score 69.5 pts/game with Wilson at PG.
Defensive Rtg: 102.7 - Marquette allows 66.3 possessions/game meaning the team would give up 68.1 pts/game with Wilson at PG.
True shooting % (an efficient shooting % that accounts for the difficulty of 2pt, 3pt, and FT shots): 43.2%
John Dawson:
Offensive Rtg: 87.6 - Marquette averages 69.1 possessions/game meaning the team would score 60.5 pts/game with Dawson at PG.
Defensive Rtg: 105.2 - Marquette allows 66.3 possessions/game meaning the team would give up 69.7 pts/game with Dawson at PG.
True shooting % (an efficient shooting % that accounts for the difficulty of 2pt, 3pt, and FT shots): 42.7%
Now we know that there are other players that play along side these guys but the numbers are pretty soundly in Derrick Wilson's favor as far as who deserves the vast majority of minutes this year at PG.
That may point to a bigger problem but still here's the data. I included the true shooting percentage stat as it accounts for both the difficulty and difference between the three types of shots a player could take and comes up with a percentage reflecting their overall shooting.
Thanks for theses numbers, Matty. They paint the picture I've seen all year - Derrick is very limited, John more so. The myth that John would give us more "O" is just that. They both average just over 7 points per 40 minutes on bad shooting (Derrick 43% on 2s, 8% on 3s, John 30% on 2s and 29% on 3s). John is a much better free throw shooter, but assists and rebounds at a lower rate and turns it over at a higher one. Add to that the fact that Derrick is a much better on ball and help defender and in less than 4 times John's minutes has 12 times more steals (36 to 3). In the ideal world, Derrick would be a back up point playing 15 minutes and John would be learning with mop up minutes. Sadly, we don't have the guy who can effectively be the 25 minute guy, so that role falls to Derrick. With him filling that role we're an average team. Give that role to John (potential sure, but all the numbers say he's not ready) we're a below average, sub .500 conference team IMO.
Quote from: Ners on March 03, 2014, 04:49:11 PM
You should probably jump on the Deonte stock right now. He is going to be a monster next year. Would not surprise me in the least if he was able to leave MU after junior year and get drafted in first round.
I hope you're right. But I also remember lots of folks here worrying that Mayo might leave early because he was going to be so dominant.
Quote from: Ners on March 03, 2014, 08:25:34 PM
And you can look at these head to head stats and they have value to an extent...yet what can't be measured is how does Derrick's complete lack of any kind of perimeter game, negatively affect the other 4 guys on the floor?? I'd say GREATLY...and evidence of where this could be said was the Seton Hall game where everyone agreed Dawson was TERRIBLE - the one true game he looked awful - yet in his time on the floor..a 12 minute stretch...our lead didn't shrink..and we grew it by 2 points over when he entered the game. Why?? Because the THREAT alone of a guy being able to make a 3, much less take one keeps the defense honest.
This is total BS. We "grew our lead" by 2 points because the other team threw the ball away multiple times, missed easy shots and blew 4 straight free throws after John Dawson turnovers were followed by dumb John Dawson fouls. Giving John credit for good D on those missed free throws and those unforced TOs (the reason he was +2) would, of course, be ridiculous, but no more ridiculous than crediting the +2 to his mere presence "spacing the floor". You're on a quest for an imaginary grail, Ners, but the facts are overwhelming that John is much less ready to be a D1 point guard than Derrick despite Derrick's glaring deficiencies. The problem isn't who Buzz is playing, it's that Buzz has given himself no better alternatives.
Well....at least I learned a little more about DW vs. JD
Now, excuse me for a sec while I go blow my brains out!!
Quote from: The Sultan of Slurpery on March 03, 2014, 08:34:56 PM
That very well might be the case. But that is a different argument entirely. That isn't the argument that Buzz is simply sitting his better players...that is that those with a higher ceiling haven't done what they need to do. That might be coaching. It might be on them.
it's on buzz when every freshman is having the same issue...either he can't coach 'em up, or he can't recruit. if you're going to keep players with higher ceilings on the bench, you better have a competitive team.
the offense sucks this year, and i think buzz has always believed that if his teams play solid defense, he's good enough to figure out ways (offensively) to win games. he did it with a midget backcourt, with poor outside shooting, with no front court, etc. over many different years. he's failed to do it this year, and the saving grace (in my opinion) is that this is the first time it's happened. it's also the first time since the three amigos we didn't have an impact JUCO or two.
avid, the offense wasn't very good last year either. They simply need better and more consistent outside shooting because this is the second year in a row where that has been completely dismal.
Quote from: avid1010 on March 04, 2014, 06:57:18 AM
it's on buzz when every freshman is having the same issue...either he can't coach 'em up, or he can't recruit. if you're going to keep players with higher ceilings on the bench, you better have a competitive team.
the offense sucks this year, and i think buzz has always believed that if his teams play solid defense, he's good enough to figure out ways (offensively) to win games. he did it with a midget backcourt, with poor outside shooting, with no front court, etc. over many different years. he's failed to do it this year, and the saving grace (in my opinion) is that this is the first time it's happened. it's also the first time since the three amigos we didn't have an impact JUCO or two.
This is the first year he did not have a potential pro player, Jamil and Devante probably will play in Europe, but not the NBA
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 03, 2014, 09:05:45 AM
So Juan will start but Derrick and Todd won't? I'm curious what makes you think that.
If Derrick starts next year, my hopes will fall drastically for John, Duane, and the season.
Derrick will start next year and will be marginally improved from this year. Hopefully one of the other guards can step up. It really is up to them.
Quote from: avid1010 on March 04, 2014, 06:57:18 AM
it's on buzz when every freshman is having the same issue...either he can't coach 'em up, or he can't recruit. if you're going to keep players with higher ceilings on the bench, you better have a competitive team.
the offense sucks this year, and i think buzz has always believed that if his teams play solid defense, he's good enough to figure out ways (offensively) to win games. he did it with a midget backcourt, with poor outside shooting, with no front court, etc. over many different years. he's failed to do it this year, and the saving grace (in my opinion) is that this is the first time it's happened. it's also the first time since the three amigos we didn't have an impact JUCO or two.
Thanks Larry/Pilarz