After some decent games, Derrick was an absolute disaster for most of this one.
Looked like he had never seen a trap before.
Couldn't finish to save his life.
Several awful passes.
Total inability to penetrate and create.
Embarrassment at the FT line.
Beaten often by several different offensive opponents.
When he's playing well, he is at least in control and a safe game-manager. Today, he was so clearly overmatched by anybody Villanova felt like putting against him.
If I didn't know he was a junior who averages 30 minutes, I'd have thought he was a freshman playing in his third game.
Dawson was no better. And for the Mayo-at-PG proponents, he was sloppy and out of sorts. Jamil? Did he even show up for the game? I'm not sure. So in a road game against a highly ranked opponent -- a game in which we needed great PG play to even have a chance -- we got nothing positive and a lot negative from the most important position on the court. Ugh.
As for the 2G, I'm still trying to figure out why Buzz couldn't find a couple minutes before garbage time for JJJ. When Jake is going well, by all means, milk him for everything he's worth. But when he stinks, as he did today, it's time to try someone else just for the sake of it. We're down 15 and Jake is throwing bricks; really, could JJJ have done any worse?
I noticed his near full-court shots have been closer than most of his free throws this year.
Quote from: MU82 on March 02, 2014, 08:09:43 PM
After some decent games, Derrick was an absolute disaster for most of this one.
Looked like he had never seen a trap before.
Couldn't finish to save his life.
Several awful passes.
Total inability to penetrate and create.
Embarrassment at the FT line.
Beaten often by several different offensive opponents.
When he's playing well, he is at least in control and a safe game-manager. Today, he was so clearly overmatched by anybody Villanova felt like putting against him.
If I didn't know he was a junior who averages 30 minutes, I'd have thought he was a freshman playing in his third game.
Dawson was no better. And for the Mayo-at-PG proponents, he was sloppy and out of sorts. Jamil? Did he even show up for the game? I'm not sure. So in a road game against a highly ranked opponent -- a game in which we needed great PG play to even have a chance -- we got nothing positive and a lot negative from the most important position on the court. Ugh.
As for the 2G, I'm still trying to figure out why Buzz couldn't find a couple minutes before garbage time for JJJ. When Jake is going well, by all means, milk him for everything he's worth. But when he stinks, as he did today, it's time to try someone else just for the sake of it. We're down 15 and Jake is throwing bricks; really, could JJJ have done any worse?
I might be misremembering, but I thought that when Buzz realized Jake wasn't good today, Todd moved to the 2, Jamil/Juan moved to the 3, Steve/Burton moved to the 4. I think JJJ was only going to see time if Jake and Todd were both awful at the 2.
Step back implies there ever was some forward progress, a'ina?
Quote from: jesmu84 on March 02, 2014, 08:26:47 PM
I might be misremembering, but I thought that when Buzz realized Jake wasn't good today, Todd moved to the 2, Jamil/Juan moved to the 3, Steve/Burton moved to the 4. I think JJJ was only going to see time if Jake and Todd were both awful at the 2.
Jake played 34 minutes today. The OP asked why couldn't JJJ get a couple of the minutes at the 2 where Jake was playing, not why people were moved around and where they moved to.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 02, 2014, 08:35:30 PM
Step back implies there ever was some forward progress, a'ina?
Derrick had several decent to good games during the 6-2 streak before this game. As I said, at the very least he managed the game well, and he gradually has gotten better at creating for others. To deny that he had taken a few steps forward would be dishonest. And today, he took a major step backward.
Given the opponent, the importance of the game and the need for a big performance at the most critical position, I don't think it would be a reach to call this his most inept outing. Certainly in his top five (or is it bottom five?). I was hoping Buzz would take him out as an act of mercy just because I felt sorry for him.
Derrick looked like a Yugo doing 30 mph in the fast lane of I-94 through Chicago.
Buzz believing in his guys, I get it.
But I have a hard time accepting 7 total points from the starting guards and the bench outscoring the starting five.
And believing that this is acceptable by Buzz.
Something has to change. He needs to hand over significant minutes to the frosh.
Heck...JWil, Jake, and Chris don't show enough punch consistently to get this team to the NCAAs.
And in his vein, I am grateful for what each has contributed to MU's program. But this season has been a challenging one as it looked on paper like they were NCAA bound.
Looking at the drop off from Junior to DWil won't seem like much from their averages, but there is a significant production drop off:
MIN FGM FGA FTM FTA 3PM 3PA PTS OFR DFR REB AST TO STL BLK
Junior Cadougan 982 112 260 60 84 14 62 298 16 86 102 133 87 38 3
Derrick Wilson 842 58 141 37 78 1 13 154 34 68 102 115 40 36 2
Keeping in mind Junior's stats are inclusive of post-season games, it's astonishing to see that there is almost a dropoff of 50% of FGM/Points scored: 100 or so points (trying to factor out the post season games). That could have been meant 3-4 less losses: ASU loss by 2; two OTs vs Butler and Nova; maybe Wisconsin.
Want more?
Compare the dropoff from Vander to Jake. You'll want to throw up:
MIN FGM FGA FTM FTA 3PM 3PA PTS OFR DFR REB AST TO STL BLK
Vander Blue 1123 183 403 96 127 40 132 502 20 90 110 62 79 35 0
Jake Thomas 803 66 180 35 46 59 147 226 9 68 77 41 28 13 5
A drop off of 50%+ in points and FTM. That's a lot of points Jamil, Ox, Todd, and the rest of the team need to make up.
We're just not scoring the ball enough. And these two positions are the two which are the culprits.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on March 03, 2014, 01:33:50 AM
Buzz believing in his guys, I get it.
But I have a hard time accepting 7 total points from the starting guards and the bench outscoring the starting five.
And believing that this is acceptable by Buzz.
Something has to change. He needs to hand over significant minutes to the frosh.
Heck...JWil, Jake, and Chris don't show enough punch consistently to get this team to the NCAAs.
And in his vein, I am grateful for what each has contributed to MU's program. But this season has been a challenging one as it looked on paper like they were NCAA bound.
Looking at the drop off from Junior to DWil won't seem like much from their averages, but there is a significant production drop off:
MIN FGM FGA FTM FTA 3PM 3PA PTS OFR DFR REB AST TO STL BLK
Junior Cadougan 982 112 260 60 84 14 62 298 16 86 102 133 87 38 3
Derrick Wilson 842 58 141 37 78 1 13 154 34 68 102 115 40 36 2
Keeping in mind Junior's stats are inclusive of post-season games, it's astonishing to see that there is almost a dropoff of 50% of FGM/Points scored: 100 or so points (trying to factor out the post season games). That could have been meant 3-4 less losses: ASU loss by 2; two OTs vs Butler and Nova; maybe Wisconsin.
Want more?
Compare the dropoff from Vander to Jake. You'll want to throw up:
MIN FGM FGA FTM FTA 3PM 3PA PTS OFR DFR REB AST TO STL BLK
Vander Blue 1123 183 403 96 127 40 132 502 20 90 110 62 79 35 0
Jake Thomas 803 66 180 35 46 59 147 226 9 68 77 41 28 13 5
A drop off of 50%+ in points and FTM. That's a lot of points Jamil, Ox, Todd, and the rest of the team need to make up.
We're just not scoring the ball enough. And these two positions are the two which are the culprits.
We poke fun at Chicos, but he is so right about it being a guard's game.
I mean, look at Nova. They don't even really have a big man but they are a top-10 team.
Those who whine about Buzz's supposed inability to recruit big men ... unless you're talking about an Anthony Davis/Oden/Shaq-quality superstud, I'd trade a top-10 big man for a top-10 point guard every time.
Quote from: MU82 on March 03, 2014, 06:52:24 AM
We poke fun at Chicos, but he is so right about it being a guard's game.
I mean, look at Nova. They don't even really have a big man but they are a top-10 team.
Those who whine about Buzz's supposed inability to recruit big men ... unless you're talking about an Anthony Davis/Oden/Shaq-quality superstud, I'd trade a top-10 big man for a top-10 point guard every time.
Absolutely one hundred percent correct!
Quote from: MU82 on March 03, 2014, 06:52:24 AM
We poke fun at Chicos, but he is so right about it being a guard's game.
I mean, look at Nova. They don't even really have a big man but they are a top-10 team.
Those who whine about Buzz's supposed inability to recruit big men ... unless you're talking about an Anthony Davis/Oden/Shaq-quality superstud, I'd trade a top-10 big man for a top-10 point guard every time.
Guards ain't gonna win you stink at the end of March.
Quote from: Jamil_toMU10 on March 02, 2014, 08:14:43 PM
I noticed his near full-court shots have been closer than most of his free throws this year.
Yeah. Sort of reminds me of Cadougan and his 3 pointer vs. UConn last year.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k378Ag1Tc30
Completely unexpected.
If you can't shoot, you lose period. They shot well. We stunk. We don't defend shots well at all.
Quote from: T-Bone on March 03, 2014, 10:12:08 AM
Yeah. Sort of reminds me of Cadougan and his 3 pointer vs. UConn last year.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k378Ag1Tc30
Completely unexpected.
Definitely unexpected. Derrick hitting that shot would be a new level of unbelievable.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 03, 2014, 09:16:44 AM
Guards ain't gonna win you stink at the end of March.
Nova got to a Final Four just a few years ago with a four-guard lineup, and many, many other guard-centric teams have done well in March.
To win a title, yes, I'd agree you need a big man or two. But how good does that big man have to be? Dieng and Behanan were nice players but neither averaged double-digits last year for Louisville; its guards carried them to the title. I submit that if you recruit and develop Davante-caliber bigs, you can win a title with great guards.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 03, 2014, 09:16:44 AM
Guards ain't gonna win you stink at the end of March.
Great guards + Bad Bigs = Tourney bid
Great guards + Average Bigs = Sweet Sixteen
Great guards + Great Bigs = NCAA Title
Bad guards + Great Bigs = NIT
Average guards + Great Bigs = Tourney bid
And that is why it is a Guard's game.
Quote from: MU82 on March 03, 2014, 10:25:17 AM
Nova got to a Final Four just a few years ago with a four-guard lineup, and many, many other guard-centric teams have done well in March.
To win a title, yes, I'd agree you need a big man or two. But how good does that big man have to be? Dieng and Behanan were nice players but neither averaged double-digits last year for Louisville; its guards carried them to the title. I submit that if you recruit and develop Davante-caliber bigs, you can win a title with great guards.
You're selling Dieng short, he was one of the best Centers in the country last year.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on March 03, 2014, 10:12:23 AM
If you can't shoot, you lose period. They shot well. We stunk. We don't defend shots well at all.
In 4 games we let Creighton & Nova shoot 115 three-pointers. That's either bad coaching, bad defense or a combo of both.
But it will never result in a win.
For the 2005 Illini, even their "bigs" played like guards. Thus proving college is a guards game. Powell was a 3 point shooter and he was their 4 and I dont remember Augustine doing very much on the block for being a 5.
Quote from: LAZER on March 03, 2014, 11:20:33 AM
You're selling Dieng short, he was one of the best Centers in the country last year.
I liked Dieng and wished we had him, but he averaged 9.8 points. Despite being nearly 7 feet tall and athletic, he was drafted near the end of the first round and rarely plays in the NBA.
If Louisville had a Gardner-Otule combination to go with Behanan and those guards, you don't think they would have been a serious championship contender?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 03, 2014, 09:16:44 AM
Guards ain't gonna win you stink at the end of March.
Said no coach ever.
Quote from: Jamil_toMU10 on March 02, 2014, 08:14:43 PM
I noticed his near full-court shots have been closer than most of his free throws this year.
I almost posted this exact comment in the game thread Sunday but was too hacked off with the meltdown at the end of the half. I know you have to be behind the line and remain in the FT circle, perhaps he could position himself in the opposite FT circle for the 3/4 court heave...
Derrick is the only player I have ever hoped does not get fouled. He really looks stiff legged and off balanced at the free throw line. I wonder what is really up with him and his free throws?
Quote from: Jamil_toMU10 on March 02, 2014, 08:14:43 PM
I noticed his near full-court shots have been closer than most of his free throws this year.
actually laughed out loud at this one
Quote from: NCMUFan on March 03, 2014, 09:24:14 PM
Derrick is the only player I have ever hoped does not get fouled. He really looks stiff legged and off balanced at the free throw line.
Derrick is shooting .463 from the line this year.
Dominic shot .461 from the line as a senior.
Ok, DJ struggled from the line, however, here are his Marquette accomplishments.
Ranks second all-time in games played (129) and assists (632), fourth in points (1,749) and fourth in steals (238) ... Was one of 50 players named to the John R. Wooden Award watch list and earned Preseason BIG EAST Honorable Mention ... One of 17 finalist for Bob Cousy Award ... Named to the Naismith Trophy watch list ...
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 03, 2014, 09:33:46 PM
Derrick is shooting .463 from the line this year.
Dominic shot .461 from the line as a senior.
The difference is Dominic James' free throw shooting was an outlier to his overall game while it's indicative of Derrick Wilson's game.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 03, 2014, 09:33:46 PM
Derrick is shooting .463 from the line this year.
Dominic shot .461 from the line as a senior.
Dominic could make layups
Quote from: MU82 on March 03, 2014, 02:28:12 PM
I liked Dieng and wished we had him, but he averaged 9.8 points. Despite being nearly 7 feet tall and athletic, he was drafted near the end of the first round and rarely plays in the NBA.
If Louisville had a Gardner-Otule combination to go with Behanan and those guards, you don't think they would have been a serious championship contender?
Dieng averaged nearly a double double in 2013 and was the BE Def POY. I'm not sure how far Louisville would have gotten with and Otule-Gardner combo, but IMO Dieng is was a much better player than that combo. I'm in the minority here, but I'm really not a big fan of Otule.
Another addition to the next Homer questions thread: Has Derrick tried potty shots or anything equally ridiculous, and if no, why the hell not? He is pretty good at drawing fouls, and goes to the line far too much to shoot worse than [insert joke or witticism].
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 03, 2014, 09:33:46 PM
Derrick is shooting .463 from the line this year.
Dominic shot .461 from the line as a senior.
That team was headed for a #2 seed until our point guard who couldn't shoot a lick got hurt. We replaced him with a good 3 point/free throw shooter who couldn't play defense and things got much worse very quickly. Hmmm.....
Quote from: mattyv1908 on March 03, 2014, 09:50:47 PM
The difference is Dominic James' free throw shooting was an outlier to his overall game while it's indicative of Derrick Wilson's game.
I gave those stats in response to a comment that Derrick was the
only player the poster hopes never gets fouled.
Take my comment in the context in which it was made.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 03, 2014, 10:07:02 PM
That team was headed for a #2 seed until our point guard who couldn't shoot a lick got hurt. We replaced him with a good 3 point/free throw shooter who couldn't play defense and things got much worse very quickly. Hmmm.....
Looks like you didn't read the post I was responding to either. Hmmmm....
A team fouling Derrick while MU is in the bonus or double bonus is essentially as a good as causing a turnover...
Quote from: NCMUFan on March 03, 2014, 09:24:14 PM
Derrick is the only player I have ever hoped does not get fouled. He really looks stiff legged and off balanced at the free throw line. I wonder what is really up with him and his free throws?
Quote from: elephantraker on March 03, 2014, 09:52:48 PM
Dominic could make layups
m
Many times with a great dunk. Have never seen Derrick dunk a layup, but have seen him clunk a few.
12 year old daughter of MU fan at a game: "Daddy, why isn't anybody guarding #12?"
Quote from: willie warrior on March 04, 2014, 06:41:07 AM
12 year old daughter of MU fan at a game: "Daddy, why isn't anybody guarding #12?"
Now that's sad, but true!!!
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 03, 2014, 10:07:02 PM
That team was headed for a #2 seed until our point guard who couldn't shoot a lick got hurt. We replaced him with a good 3 point/free throw shooter who couldn't play defense and things got much worse very quickly. Hmmm.....
Come on Lenny...its one thing to defend Derrick, but to even allude to the fact Dominic going down is in any way similar to if our team lost Derrick?? Plus at the time Dominic went down, we were just entering the murderer's row portion of the schedule..with games against Lville, Pitt, Cuse, Nova..
And don't think anyone would have a beef with Derrick if we were getting this kind of production (Dominic's senior year...where although not a great 3 point shooter...you still had to defend him hard on perimeter):
31.4 11.0 3.4 5.0 2.1 0.3 1.9 .424 .461 .284
But instead we have this:
30.1 5.4 3.7 4.1 1.2 0.1 1.4 .401 .463 .077
Quote from: Ners on March 04, 2014, 08:18:31 AM
Come on Lenny...its one thing to defend Derrick, but to even allude to the fact Dominic going down is in any way similar to if our team lost Derrick?? Plus at the time Dominic went down, we were just entering the murderer's row portion of the schedule..with games against Lville, Pitt, Cuse, Nova..
And don't think anyone would have a beef with Derrick if we were getting this kind of production (Dominic's senior year...where although not a great 3 point shooter...you still had to defend him hard on perimeter):
31.4 11.0 3.4 5.0 2.1 0.3 1.9 .424 .461 .284
But instead we have this:
30.1 5.4 3.7 4.1 1.2 0.1 1.4 .401 .463 .077
I'm not saying that Derrick = DJ but there are similarities to their games. DJ was always going to score more but he WAS a bad shooter who no doubt should have scored/shot less. Buzz cut back his offensive role and gave a lot of his shots to Wes (thank God). Both DJ and Derrick are excellent defensively and good rebounders for point guards. Both had solid assist to TO ratios. DJ was the better player, but the guy backing him up (again, similar to Dawson) was a better shooter (like Dawson). He was also weak defensively (again, like Dawson) but protected the ball much better than John does. So, DJ was a better version of Derrick as Acker was a better version of John. I don't recall things improving when our great defensive, lousy offensive point guard was replaced by a better free throw/3point shooter. In fact, it was the death knell to what might have been a great year.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 04, 2014, 09:13:07 AM
I'm not saying that Derrick = DJ but there are similarities to their games. DJ was always going to score more but he WAS a bad shooter who no doubt should have scored/shot less. Buzz cut back his offensive role and gave a lot of his shots to Wes (thank God). Both DJ and Derrick are excellent defensively and good rebounders for point guards. Both had solid assist to TO ratios. DJ was the better player, but the guy backing him up (again, similar to Dawson) was a better shooter (like Dawson). He was also weak defensively (again, like Dawson) but protected the ball much better than John does. So, DJ was a better version of Derrick as Acker was a better version of John. I don't recall things improving when our great defensive, lousy offensive point guard was replaced by a better free throw/3point shooter. In fact, it was the death knell to what might have been a great year.
All in all I'd say a good analysis - however - to the bolded part...if you define Dominic as a lousy offensive PG, then what does that make Derrick? Dominic wasn't a great 3 point shooter..similar to Cadougan last year...but they were good enough and a threat enough to at least require that they be defended at 3 point line..which helps your court spacing.
As I said, don't think there is any beef here if Derrick were putting up numbers like Dom, and were shooting 28% from 3 point line...and needed to be defended everywhere on the floor.
The reality is, however, that the "bar" has been set so low, it is highly doubtful and unlikely that if you gave Dawson 30 minutes per game his offensive output wouldn't exceed Derricks...and the floor would be spaced better...but yes, we'd give up something on the defensive end, and likely deal with a few more turnovers per game. If the whole defense first approach were working and we are winning games...I have no issue with sticking with it...but it really hasn't so why not try the alternative?
If we replaced Derrick with Dawson we'd give up something on both ends at this point.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on March 04, 2014, 10:42:00 AM
If we replaced Derrick with Dawson we'd give up something on both ends at this point.
Agreed.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 04, 2014, 09:13:07 AM
I'm not saying that Derrick = DJ but there are similarities to their games. DJ was always going to score more but he WAS a bad shooter who no doubt should have scored/shot less. Buzz cut back his offensive role and gave a lot of his shots to Wes (thank God). Both DJ and Derrick are excellent defensively and good rebounders for point guards. Both had solid assist to TO ratios. DJ was the better player, but the guy backing him up (again, similar to Dawson) was a better shooter (like Dawson). He was also weak defensively (again, like Dawson) but protected the ball much better than John does. So, DJ was a better version of Derrick as Acker was a better version of John. I don't recall things improving when our great defensive, lousy offensive point guard was replaced by a better free throw/3point shooter. In fact, it was the death knell to what might have been a great year.
The only real similarity between DJ and DW was that both were poor FT shooters in their most recent Marquette season. (DJ actually was a 62% career FT shooter, including 66% when he was a junior as DW is now.)
Otherwise, DJ actually could make layups -- and dunks. He was a career 29% shooter from 3PT -- not exactly Reggie Miller but a far cry from the scud-launcher that is DW. Teams had to respect DJ, and if they did he'd just drive past them because he also was far quicker than DW. He was a superior defender, every bit as good on the ball and far more likely to get a steal and turn it into points on the other end; how many times has DW done that all season? DJ could break down his defender and create for himself and others.
And so on and so on and so on. I feel silly even having to do this.
As for DJ's backup ... we know what Acker became as a 5th-year senior: a very nice 3-point shooter and effective floor leader. But the year DJ got hurt, Acker was a seldom-used change-of-pace guy. In the four games before DJ got hurt, Acker played 6, 8, 8 and 3 minutes. He then was forced to play huge minutes in a role for which he was not accustomed.
The similarities between the games of DW and DJ are slight. FT's: both not good, but DJ much better; Athletic ability: DJ by far; Defender: DJ better; Shooting: DJ better; Ball handling: Give DJ a slight edge; Scoring: DJ much better. Overall: DJ far superior