I like how everyone here NOW says this team is talent deficient. Except they aren't. Remember, this was a team unanimously picked to win the Big East by fellow Coaches, who happen to know something about talent. And this was even well after Vander had made his decision. This team has talent, Jamil, Davante, Todd are all plenty talented. That's what makes this year so incredibly disappointing, they weren't supposed to be this bad. I think had we expected it, obviously it wouldn't be so disappointing. But the fact that this was a team with 2-3 NCAA seed thoughts before the year began, and are now probably won't get in?? Absolutely pathetic really. Is there a team in college BB this year that has been more disappointing given their preseason expectations??
Not that springs quickly to mind.
Probably Kentucky. Ok state?
Quote from: KenoshaWarrior on March 02, 2014, 06:43:13 PM
Probably Kentucky. Ok state?
They're still dancing - how can they be a comparison?
I been tellin' y'all this team lacks talent all season. There isn't an Association playa on the roster.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on March 02, 2014, 06:44:26 PM
They're still dancing - how can they be a comparison?
Kentucky was printing 40-0 tshirts
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 02, 2014, 06:47:53 PM
I been tellin' y'all this team lacks talent all season. There isn't an Association playa on the roster.
I think Burton will end up playing in the league when his college career is over. Has the body and athleticism to play in the NBA. He might leave for the draft after his junior year.
This team has talent. But, it doesn't have the horses. Buzz's teams have always taken on the identity of their seniors. Unfortunately, we have good role player seniors, but no clearly defined, fire-in-the-belly senior leader. We are missing a leader with the fortitude to lift the team when its down. We are missing a Jae Crowder, Jimmy Butler, etc. We are missing a star. Vander Blue would have had first crack at that role; it is shame he wasn't here to take it.
I was hoping Jamil would be that guy; unfortunately, he is not. He can be great at times, but he is a role player. He seems to be lacking that extra drive necessary to pick the team up and put it on his shoulders. He is just not a star.
Chris Otule is a bunch of wonderful things, and the fact that he is where he is, after all he has overcome, is phenomenal. But, we have known for a long time that he is not going to lift a team himself.
Jake Thomas is another role player. Imagine how solid he could be with another scoring threat next to him.
Gardner is an offensive powerhouse. But, let's face it; he has never really looked the part of "leader", has he? He has a very distinct personality about him, but what that personality doesn't scream to me is: "I am going to will us to victory." I love the big fella, but he is no Jae Crowder and he is no Jimmy Butler.
This team has some talent. But it does not have the glue that holds that talent together. It doesn't have the leader willing to pick up the pieces and put them together when times require it. It doesn't have "it", whatever the heck "it" is.
Again, I was hopeful that that person would emerge in Jamil Wilson, because if anyone was destined to be this team's leader it was Jamil. Unfortunately, as Jamil has gone this season, so has Marquette. The best you can say about that is "ho hum."
I don't give a rip about preseason expectations. MU is exhibit A as to what they're worth. St. John's and Georgetown are exiphibits B and C, so this is far from unique to MU, but this team just isn't very good. Been waiting for the MU 'brand' to show up, but it just hasn't happened, nd I've resigned myself to the fact that it isn't goingto, not with this group of players. They are incomplete individuals that make up an incomplete team. Jamil has been hugely disappointing. Mayo is a talented kid but can be a real lousy basketball player. Derrik and Jake are just limited in their abilities. Davante can really score the ball, but can be very disinterested at times. Beyond that you have young guys and role players who struggle as much as they thrive.
In Buzz's time here, in general, the teams have not only been appreciably more talented, but they consistently went out and outworked their opponents. For whatever reason, this group simoly has not been willing/able to do so.
Edit: in other words, what 4ever and MuCam said combined.
Before the season, I was thought Marquette was lock for the tournament, but not a 2 or 3 seed. However, after watching the ASU and San Diego State games, it was clear the talent was not there. I have been referring to this season as DEANE 2.0; poor shooting and a half-step slow.
But I still scratch my head that Caduogan and Blue were the difference between the Elite 8 and the NIT? How did they look so talented last year?
Quote from: warriorfred on March 02, 2014, 06:54:59 PM
But I still scratch my head that Caduogan and Blue were the difference between the Elite 8 and the NIT? How did they look so talented last year?
Don't underestimate Lockett. Was the last player cut from the Kings. Blue played in the league this year. That's two NBA caliber guys. This team has none.
Quote from: muguru on March 02, 2014, 06:38:37 PM
I like how everyone here NOW says this team is talent deficient. Except they aren't. Remember, this was a team unanimously picked to win the Big East by fellow Coaches, who happen to know something about talent.
Where did these same coaches (or even better coaches--Pitino/Boeheim) pick us to finish the last few years?? 12th? 8th? Were they poor evaluators or talent then as well.
Pre-season picks dont mean sheet.
Sometimes, the pieces don't fit. Assumptions I had before the season that turned out wrong....
1. Jamil would step up a la Jae, Jimmy, Lazar.
2. Duane would be starting at PG by the time conference season rolled around.
3. Todd would be starting at the 2.
3. JJJ would have seized Jake's playing time.
4. Juan would have progressed.
5. STjr would have progressed.
6. Someone would have assumed the mantle of leadership.
Pleasant surprises.
1. Jake
2. Deonte
3. Dawson
Quote from: We R Final Four on March 02, 2014, 07:02:17 PM
Where did these same coaches (or even better coaches--Pitino/Boeheim) pick us to finish the last few years?? 12th? 8th? Were they poor evaluators or talent then as well.
Pre-season picks dont mean sheet.
Oh sure they do, to some people....especially if the desire is to rip other teams and that helps load gun. Some folks want to have it both ways.
I agree with you, the picks don't mean much, but the irony is rather cute.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 02, 2014, 07:07:47 PM
Oh sure they do, to some people....especially if the desire is to rip other teams and that helps load gun. Some folks want to have it both ways.
I agree with you, the picks don't mean much, but the irony is rather cute.
Yet again, Chico bearings Crean into a completely unrelated thread.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 02, 2014, 06:58:56 PM
Don't underestimate Lockett. Was the last player cut from the Kings. Blue played in the league this year. That's two NBA caliber guys. This team has none.
I had forgotten about Lockett, and that is a good point, this team is missing NBA talent-level players (too earlier to judge the freshmen).
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 02, 2014, 07:16:45 PM
Yet again, Chico bearings Crean into a completely unrelated thread.
For the love of all that is good and nice in this beautiful world, stop quoting him. Just hit ignore. Nothing will ever change his tired, passive aggressive, beat a dead horse until its alive again, mantra. The best you can do is ignore. Best advice I ever received.
Cheers!
I think the problem is that MU this year is a bit of an island of misfit toys they all have there talents but also a critical weakness that together they are not able to cover up the flaws.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 02, 2014, 07:16:45 PM
Yet again, Chico bearings Crean into a completely unrelated thread.
No. He said "picks." ;)
I think it's incorrect to say this team in not talented. They have talent in terms of Top 100 kids on the roster. I think what it proves is that success in a high major league like the BE involves more than just having talent on the roster.
First this team lacks talent and experience in the most important position in college basketball, the Point Guard. We've had solid PGs for so long that we're not used to what it is like to not have one. Derrick was not a top flight PG coming out of HS. He was good but not great. Dawson was a guy the staff took a flyer on but he wasn't a Top 100 recruit either and of course he lacks experience. As stated earlier Duane was the highly regarded PG recruit and I would bet the staff figured he'd be primary PG by now.
Next we are devoid of shooters on this team. As a result a guy who came here as a walk on is the starting 2 because he is the only proven threat from 3 who can also play defense to the scouting report. There's talent on the team but it's in the wrong positions.
Finally even if you have talent you need leadership and as stated earlier this team lacks a leader that can make everyone better. I'm sorry to say but there is no one poised to provide the leadership next year either.
While it now appears MU will miss the tournament for the first time in 7 years they still will finish with at least a 500 record in one of the top 5 leagues in the country. Given all the problems, they must be talented to pull that off. Keep in mind that Nova who just beat up on us was 13-19 2 years ago winning only 4 league games. Two years ago Pitt was 5-13 in conference. Both those teams had talent. It happens.
Sometimes even teams with extraordinary talent on their roster p33 down their leg.
(http://scoop.hoosiershq.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/IUSportsIllustrated.jpg)
(http://www.shermanreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/ESPN-Zeller.jpg)
(http://sigroup.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/cody-zeller-si-cover.jpg)
MU's a team that has lost more games than it should have. Is PG an important position and was losing Duane big to this season? Yes and perhaps. But, lots of teams fight through injuries, etc... it's not over yet.
Quote from: NotAnAlum on March 02, 2014, 09:33:56 PM
I think it's incorrect to say this team in not talented. They have talent in terms of Top 100 kids on the roster. I think what it proves is that success in a high major league like the BE involves more than just having talent on the roster.
First this team lacks talent and experience in the most important position in college basketball, the Point Guard. We've had solid PGs for so long that we're not used to what it is like to not have one. Derrick was not a top flight PG coming out of HS. He was good but not great. Dawson was a guy the staff took a flyer on but he wasn't a Top 100 recruit either and of course he lacks experience. As stated earlier Duane was the highly regarded PG recruit and I would bet the staff figured he'd be primary PG by now.
Next we are devoid of shooters on this team. As a result a guy who came here as a walk on is the starting 2 because he is the only proven threat from 3 who can also play defense to the scouting report. There's talent on the team but it's in the wrong positions.
Finally even if you have talent you need leadership and as stated earlier this team lacks a leader that can make everyone better. I'm sorry to say but there is no one poised to provide the leadership next year either.
While it now appears MU will miss the tournament for the first time in 7 years they still will finish with at least a 500 record in one of the top 5 leagues in the country. Given all the problems, they must be talented to pull that off. Keep in mind that Nova who just beat up on us was 13-19 2 years ago winning only 4 league games. Two years ago Pitt was 5-13 in conference. Both those teams had talent. It happens.
First time in 8 years four years Big Three, one year of midgets, two sweet 16s and an elite 8 is eight years. Everything else you said I agree with.
Also, McKay was suppose to be a rebounding machine. Rebounding is one of this teams weaknesses.
Quote from: bilsu on March 02, 2014, 10:19:32 PM
Also, McKay was suppose to be a rebounding machine. Rebounding is one of this teams weaknesses.
Probably would've been tall and athletic enough to guard Kaminsky and Wragge when those two were going crazy from beyond the arc as well.
The talent is there.
It's just not starting.
I don't think DWil and Jake are considered "talents". Heck, even the way Juan's playing and Chris's old man in the middle play don't warrant talent.
Probably Notre Dame.
This team has plenty of talent - even with the unexpected losses of DuWilson and McKay.
The problem is that this team never developed the chemistry that's been a hallmark of Buzz's teams...so that the whole is more than the sum of its parts. In years past, we'd typically do better than most expected because of that chemistry. This year, it seems like the guys are reading different playbooks.
IMHO the main reason for this is the lack of a senior leader - a guy to whom the rest of the team looks for inspiration and guidance when things aren't going well. And I'm not just talking about guys who would take games over - I'm talking about guys would would calm things down and motivate the other four guys to play better when the going got rough. We had it last year with Junior, and in past seasons with guys like Jae, Jimmy, Lazar, etc. This year's seniors - especially Jamil and Davante - are as talented as any of those guys, but simply don't lead and inspire the guys around them like past leaders have. And before someone chimes in with "that's the PG's job" and blames it on Derrick, note that most of our leaders in recent seasons have not been PGs.
I think things will improve next season largely because we appear to have two upcoming seniors who have been vocally trying to motivate and inspire those around them - Derrick and Juan. Both have holes in thier games, but I expect them to work relentlessly this summer to improve them...and take advantage of their status as seniors to grab the reins.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 03, 2014, 11:29:50 AM
This team has plenty of talent - even with the unexpected losses of DuWilson and McKay.
The problem is that this team never developed the chemistry that's been a hallmark of Buzz's teams...so that the whole is more than the sum of its parts. In years past, we'd typically do better than most expected because of that chemistry. This year, it seems like the guys are reading different playbooks.
IMHO the main reason for this is the lack of a senior leader - a guy to whom the rest of the team looks for inspiration and guidance when things aren't going well. And I'm not just talking about guys who would take games over - I'm talking about guys would would calm things down and motivate the other four guys to play better when the going got rough. We had it last year with Junior, and in past seasons with guys like Jae, Jimmy, Lazar, etc. This year's seniors - especially Jamil and Davante - are as talented as any of those guys, but simply don't lead and inspire the guys around them like past leaders have. And before someone chimes in with "that's the PG's job" and blames it on Derrick, note that most of our leaders in recent seasons have not been PGs.
I think things will improve next season largely because we appear to have two upcoming seniors who have been vocally trying to motivate and inspire those around them - Derrick and Juan. Both have holes in thier games, but I expect them to work relentlessly this summer to improve them...and take advantage of their status as seniors to grab the reins.
I actually agree they might not be the most talented but I do see them as hardworking people. So if that added responsibility I'd expect them to take it very seriously.
Quote from: mujivitz06 on March 03, 2014, 10:29:23 AM
Probably Notre Dame.
Marquette definitely has to be up there in disappointing teams. My list of disappointments this year are:
- Marquette
- Kentucky... pre-season #1
- Oklahoma State
- Notre Dame... pre-season #21 and they are not even going to the NIT
I agree the team has talent but unfortunately it is almost all in forwards and bigs. The guards are average. They have all have glaring weaknesses (JJJ = defense/young, Mayo = turnovers, DWill = shooting, Jake = cant create his own shot, etc.).
This team is extremely talented. They just never meshed well as a team this year. Inconsistent play from the seniors on down is probably the biggest problem. Glaring weaknesses with some of the players. Overall basketball IQ probably not the best on this team either.
Quote from: mufanatic on March 03, 2014, 11:52:15 AM
This team is extremely talented. They just never meshed well as a team this year. Inconsistent play from the seniors on down is probably the biggest problem. Glaring weaknesses with some of the players. Overall basketball IQ probably not the best on this team either.
I don't get how people think this team is so talented. I just don't see it.
I see a couple guys in Davante and Jamil that can score, some inconsistent freshmen, and a bunch of role players. They've played to their talent level this season.
Quote from: MUfan12 on March 03, 2014, 11:56:38 AM
I don't get how people think this team is so talented. I just don't see it.
I see a couple guys in Davante and Jamil that can score, some inconsistent freshmen, and a bunch of role players. They've played to their talent level this season.
Because those athletic talented players aren't getting the looks and are Freshmen and a Sophomore
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 02, 2014, 07:07:47 PM
Oh sure they do, to some people....especially if the desire is to rip other teams and that helps load gun. Some folks want to have it both ways.
I agree with you, the picks don't mean much, but the irony is rather cute.
How this for IRONY...the #1 picked team, ended up getting a #1 Seed. They lived up to the hype...until late March.
Quote from: PunchingPiper on March 03, 2014, 11:59:16 AM
Because those athletic talented players aren't getting the looks and are Freshmen and a Sophomore
The evidence to support that comment is what?
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 03, 2014, 01:22:39 PM
The evidence to support that comment is what?
You're asking for evidence that STj and JJJ and Duane Wilson aren't getting looks? To me them and burton are the core of our talent (though buttons getting looks). Duane Wilson is injured and JJJ and STj each have multiple DNP and less than a handful of minutes games this year which shows they aren't getting looks. What else do you want?
Quote from: PunchingPiper on March 03, 2014, 01:26:33 PM
You're asking for evidence that STj and JJJ and Duane Wilson aren't getting looks?
No, the evidence that they are more talented players that simply aren't getting looks.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on March 03, 2014, 11:41:44 AM
I agree the team has talent but unfortunately it is almost all in forwards and bigs. The guards are average.
I
wish our guards were average.
The Vander-Junior-Trent-Mayo backcourt was average (if looking at scoring-assist numbers), or maybe a bit above average if including intangibles. This backcourt? It needs binoculars just to get a glimpse of average.
Feel free to look at what some of us worry-warts wrote about our deep concerns regarding the backcourt going into the season ... and the responses about how "negative" we were being.
This is right on.....
Quote from: MUfan12 on March 03, 2014, 11:56:38 AM
I don't get how people think this team is so talented. I just don't see it.
I see a couple guys in Davante and Jamil that can score, some inconsistent freshmen, and a bunch of role players. They've played to their talent level this season.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 03, 2014, 01:29:05 PM
No, the evidence that they are more talented players that simply aren't getting looks.
I thought the not getting looks part was covered already...
The more talented players I don't know how to support that seeing as I'm on my phone in Straz right now but when I sit down for a lovely MUscoop argument I'll happily look up everything I possibly can for you.
Mu82,you are spot on.I think Buzz made a mistake in signing 2 freshman point guards.Should have signed one juco point.I honestly believe he was going to hand the keys to Duane Wilson and that is why he did not do it.We are very below average in the backcourt for a HIGH Major team.
Quote from: muguru on March 02, 2014, 06:38:37 PM
Is there a team in college BB this year that has been more disappointing given their preseason expectations??
Notre Dame. They were ranked 4 spots below us in the preseason poll and (assuming they lose @UNC) will finish the season with a losing record.
Other than that? Unfortunately no. Kentucky, Michigan State, VCU, and Oklahoma State are probably the closest competition.
I agree on the senior leader bit. I think that is the key piece missing. But I think the talent that has underachieved has been Johnson. He was the recruit that I was most excited about. He was our highest ranked recruit since Doc Rivers and he seemed to already have Buzz's blessing coming out of training camp. Then he can't even earn his way into the rotation? I expected more from the young man. I hope he taps his potential next year.
Quote from: MUfan12 on March 03, 2014, 11:56:38 AM
I don't get how people think this team is so talented. I just don't see it.
I see a couple guys in Davante and Jamil that can score, some inconsistent freshmen, and a bunch of role players. They've played to their talent level this season.
This.
DW, CO and JA? Who among those three oozes with talent?
Found a post with my expected lineup for this season from like October. Here are my thoughts on each now that season has actually happened:
Starting PG: Derrick: Neutral. I never expected Derrick to be a scorer. I though he would get about 6 a game, run the floor well, play D, and not turn the ball over. Hoped that his shot would be a little better.
Starting SG: Johnson: Underachieved. You can see my thoughts in my eariler post. Really expected a lot from this kid. He was honorable mention for Preseason BEast Rookie of the Year. Couldn't even crack the rotation.
Starting SF: Jamil: Underachieved. I expected him to have a Crowder-like senior season. His production has barely increased and has shown no leadership.
Starting PF: McKay: Incomplete. I liked what I saw in McKay's Juco career. I think this loss hurt us more than most realize. I think Hoiberg got himself a really good ball player.
Starting C: Gardner: Neutral. Got exactly what I expected from Ox.
1st Bench: Mayo: Overachieved. I was one of the one's who though JJJ would replace Mayo. I didn't have much faith in his consistency. He's shown some clutchness and skill. Wish he had a better handle and defense.
2nd Bench: Duane: Incomplete. This injury really hurt. Derrick would have started but I think we would have seen a 25/15 minute split at least.
3rd Bench: Otule: Neutral. Didn't think he would improve much from last season, and he didn't.
4th Bench: Anderson: Underachieved. I thought he would take a leap forward. Maybe get 6-8 points a game off the bench. Thought his 3 point shooting would have come along. It didn't
5th Bench: Taylor: Incomplete. I'm writing off this season for Taylor as being injury plagued. I'm excited to see what he can do next season.
6th Bench: Burton: Overachieved. I really expected Burton to ride the bench, maybe show some flashes in spot minutes but not do much.
7th Bench: Thomas: Super-Overachieved. Never expected him to see he floor. Now he's shooting 40% from three and playing great D. Probably our most improved player.
8th Bench: Dawson. Overachieved. Honestly thought Dawson was the next Jamal Ferguson but he has come in and shown that he has talent. I'm excited to see what he can develop into.
I know not everyone agreed with my thoughts on what the starting lineup would be. But this is why we have not lived up to preseason expectations. Our starting lineup (as I projected it) has two neutrals, two underachieves, and one incomplete. The players we thought would be studs either left or haven't been. Fortunately, some bench players have stepped up and been better to at least keep us afloat. Personally, I think we will be better next season. Lots of raw talent. Even though Buzz will be out of his comfort zone with only 4 "questionable" upperclassmen, I think he will be back in his comfort zone with some athletic and talented guards running the show, rather than forwards.
Quote from: The Lens on March 03, 2014, 12:45:05 PM
How this for IRONY...the #1 picked team, ended up getting a #1 Seed. They lived up to the hype...until late March.
I think you're missing it. The #1 preseason team often doesn't win it or even go to the Final Four.....people bashing on those schools typically depends on other factors. If you play it out, the top 4 preseason teams (using the same logic) should go to the Final Four each year....you don't see the gnashing of teeth in any of those 4 don't make it to the Final Four, let alone win it all unless there is usually some other reason to do so. Kentucky was preseason #1, yup they are taking heat. MSU was preseason #2...taking no heat. Louisville preseason #3, taking no heat. Duke preseason #4, taking mild heat.