I hope that you get a steady rain, and not just flash floods. Looks like you have a few days of rain in the forecast.
I'm sure you know a lot on desalinization plants and the cost of water. Is that being talked about, seriously, in LA for drinking water or is it still too expensive? I know nothing on this topic, so it would be nice to hear your quick take.
Quote from: GOO on February 26, 2014, 10:20:10 AM
I hope that you get a steady rain, and not just flash floods. Looks like you have a few days of rain in the forecast.
I'm sure you know a lot on desalinization plants and the cost of water. Is that being talked about, seriously, in LA for drinking water or is it still too expensive? I know nothing on this topic, so it would be nice to hear your quick take.
No idea on cost of desalinization plants. Rain is coming....watching people get all worked up for what amounts to 1" or maybe 2" is fun. STORM WATCH 2014. Good Lord.
Basically means I won't be mowing my front and back yard this weekend, which is fine.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 26, 2014, 04:45:47 PM
No idea on cost of desalinization plants. Rain is coming....watching people get all worked up for what amounts to 1" or maybe 2" is fun. STORM WATCH 2014. Good Lord.
Basically means I won't be mowing my front and back yard this weekend, which is fine.
Can't you guys just steal more water from Colorado?
That's OK. We won't be cleanin' the pool out in The Quon this weekend either.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 26, 2014, 04:45:47 PM
No idea on cost of desalinization plants. Rain is coming....watching people get all worked up for what amounts to 1" or maybe 2" is fun. STORM WATCH 2014. Good Lord.
Basically means I won't be mowing my front and back yard this weekend, which is fine.
How are lawns still growing in this massive of a drought.
A desalination plant is in the works for northern San Diego Cty. When it is up and running we can sell the by product for your winter roads.
Quote from: forgetful on February 26, 2014, 08:02:59 PM
How are lawns still growing in this massive of a drought.
Sprinklers, morning dew, etc. This time of year, I only have to mow once every 2 or 3 weeks, so not too bad.
Of course if they didn't release so much of the usable water into the ocean last few years, one wonders how the drought would be this year. Ahh...the brilliance.
Truckloads of snow from the upper Midwest. We have plenty.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 26, 2014, 08:48:18 PM
Sprinklers, morning dew, etc. This time of year, I only have to mow once every 2 or 3 weeks, so not too bad.
Of course if they didn't release so much of the usable water into the ocean last few years, one wonders how the drought would be this year. Ahh...the brilliance.
Why are people still using sprinklers?
Quote from: forgetful on February 26, 2014, 09:58:14 PM
Why are people still using sprinklers?
Because pissing on the lawn tends to make it yellow
Massive amounts of rain last night....at least a 1/2 inch. ::) The commute this morning will be 1.5 hours easily because these knuckleheads think the world is ending.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 26, 2014, 08:48:18 PM
Of course if they didn't release so much of the usable water into the ocean last few years, one wonders how the drought would be this year. Ahh...the brilliance.
Can you explain? Or at least, explain the side that thought that was a good idea...
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on February 27, 2014, 11:43:53 AM
Can you explain? Or at least, explain the side that thought that was a good idea...
Its hard for me to explain a lot of things here, like why we protect a smelt fish over human beings. So you need to understand the backdrop of the insanity that thrives here. Because of that ruling, by a Federal judge, more than 300 Billion gallons in 2010 and 2011 alone went to the Ocean and not to farmers, etc. That's just one part of it. There is the issue of farmers and their run off waste (fertilizers), the fact we have millions of people living in a desert and not much rain.
Tons of finger pointing going on out here. You have environmentalists screaming, farmers screaming, the water managers, etc, etc. Feds screaming at state and vice versa. It has become a political campaign issue.
For the last 10 years I've gone on my annual jet skiing trip to Central California on a lake up there that is a reservoir. In each of the last several years the water managers there have released excess water to the river that eventually goes to the ocean. This year, you can literally walk out to the middle of the lake and not get wet in many areas. I saw a video of it two weeks ago and it is unbelievable. This is a lake that is 210' at max depth, of course most of it is more like 15' to 20', but incredible.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 27, 2014, 01:12:08 PM
Its hard for me to explain a lot of things here, like why we protect a smelt fish over human beings. So you need to understand the backdrop of the insanity that thrives here. Because of that ruling, by a Federal judge, more than 300 Billion gallons in 2010 and 2011 alone went to the Ocean and not to farmers, etc. That's just one part of it. There is the issue of farmers and their run off waste (fertilizers), the fact we have millions of people living in a desert and not much rain.
Tons of finger pointing going on out here. You have environmentalists screaming, farmers screaming, the water managers, etc, etc. Feds screaming at state and vice versa. It has become a political campaign issue.
For the last 10 years I've gone on my annual jet skiing trip to Central California on a lake up there that is a reservoir. In each of the last several years the water managers there have released excess water to the river that eventually goes to the ocean. This year, you can literally walk out to the middle of the lake and not get wet in many areas. I saw a video of it two weeks ago and it is unbelievable. This is a lake that is 210' at max depth, of course most of it is more like 15' to 20', but incredible.
I had a buddy during undergrad who was the smartest person I knew when it came to computers... I always joked that if anyone could break into Bill Gates' laptop, it was him. He ended up taking a job with the water department in Las Vegas... the next time I saw him I called BS and told him the only job in Vegas commensurate with his skills involved taking the daily Janet flight to Groom Lake. I came to realize that the people who monitor & manage the day-to-day of potable water systems in a SW metropolitan area are the new rocket scientists; unfortunately like many public agencies, there seems to be an aggregation of morons near the top of the hierarchy.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 27, 2014, 01:12:08 PM
Its hard for me to explain a lot of things here, like why we protect a smelt fish over human beings.
Snail darters and spotted owls
Quote from: Benny B on February 27, 2014, 01:27:12 PM
taking the daily Janet flight to Groom Lake.
They really should have flown these out of Nellis
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 27, 2014, 08:43:18 AM
Massive amounts of rain last night....at least a 1/2 inch. ::) The commute this morning will be 1.5 hours easily because these knuckleheads think the world is ending.
Californians drive quicker in the rain?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 01, 2014, 09:32:58 AM
Californians drive quicker in the rain?
Coming home last night, the merger of the 605 and 91 freeway there was a car that couldn't make the very easy, sweeping circular on ramp and ended up about 15 feet below the embankment. By the time I got there, 3 CHP cars there and the drivers (all unharmed - in their late teens early 20s) just staring at the car. I'm sure the CHP guys were laughing and wondering how the F these idiots couldn't do this properly. I can only imagine the response "but there was this stuff falling from the sky, it made things all slippery and stuff...we didn't know what to do".
Be very afraid of native California drivers and rain.....the clueless become even more clueless.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 01, 2014, 09:51:52 AM
Coming how last night, the merger of the 605 and 91 freeway there was a car that couldn't make the very easy, sweeping circular on ramp and ended up about 15 feet below the embankment. By the time I got there, 3 CHP cars there and the drivers (all unharmed - in their late teens early 20s) just staring at the car. I'm sure the CHP guys were laughing and wondering how the F these idiots couldn't do this properly. I can only imagine the response "but there was this stuff falling from the sky, it made things all slippery and stuff...we didn't know what to do".
Be very afraid of native California drivers and rain.....the clueless become even more clueless.
+100 Ain't that the truth!
When it rains here roads become very slippery because of accumulated oils,etc. that's when I work from home and leave the roads to the maniacs who don't slow down.
Fun to go see the waterfalls in the mountains,though.
Quote from: elephantraker on March 01, 2014, 11:13:46 AM
When it rains here roads become very slippery because of accumulated oils,etc. that's when I work from home and leave the roads to the maniacs who don't slow down.
Fun to go see the waterfalls in the mountains,though.
Very true
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 27, 2014, 12:06:05 AM
Because pissing on the lawn tends to make it yellow
Any state that complains about drought, but allows people to water grass in a desert is idiotic. And yes, I count metro Denver in that group. Don't bitch about clean drinking water when very little of it is used for drinking.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 01, 2014, 11:36:22 AM
Any state that complains about drought, but allows people to water grass in a desert is idiotic. And yes, I count metro Denver in that group. Don't bitch about clean drinking water when very little of it is used for drinking.
There has been plenty of water, our state chooses this
(http://earthjustice.org/sites/default/files/feature_expanded/2012/esa-smelt-310.jpg)
over this
(http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1593677/thumbs/o-SACRAMENTO-DROUGHT-900.jpg?15)
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 01, 2014, 11:55:05 AM
There has been plenty of water, our state chooses this
orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
(http://www.popularmechanics.com/cm/popularmechanics/images/sprinklers_03_0710-lg-27441940.jpg)
over this
(http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1593677/thumbs/o-SACRAMENTO-DROUGHT-900.jpg?15)
PS: clearly neither is completely responsible, but the result is the same, less water for farmers, eh?
Actually, no. The water I get to water my lawn comes from ground wells down here and served to our municipality.
The water for the central valley and further north for farmers comes from various rivers, etc which the state has decided the Delta Smelt fish is more important, among other things.
Now, in certain parts of the state, the water source is the same, but down here in my situation, it is not.
Of course I also have to water my orange trees, plum, apple, etc to keep them alive and producing food. We're close enough to the water that we wouldn't qualify for living in a desert, but a good chunk of So Cal is. Many of those communities grow tons of food, either for personal use or farming.
The humorous side to this, as CBB knows , is that, regardless of how the rainy season adds up, the news papers will have headlines screaming about the immense fire danger in the months ahead. Should we have a dry season they will warn that the vegetation is "bone dry" and prone to combustion. Or ,if the season was unusually wet, they will cry in alarm that the brush has exploded with new growth and is a sever fire hazard. They just rotate theses stories as the conditions warrant.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 01, 2014, 02:07:04 PM
Actually, no. The water I get to water my lawn comes from ground wells down here and served to our municipality.
The water for the central valley and further north for farmers comes from various rivers, etc which the state has decided the Delta Smelt fish is more important, among other things.
Now, in certain parts of the state, the water source is the same, but down here in my situation, it is not.
Of course I also have to water my orange trees, plum, apple, etc to keep them alive and producing food. We're close enough to the water that we wouldn't qualify for living in a desert, but a good chunk of So Cal is. Many of those communities grow tons of food, either for personal use or farming.
yeah fine. The irony of complaining about droughts, and gov't interference about saving fish, while folks water lawns at will is a bit humorous. Cue you complaining about Al Gore flying on a jet creating pollution while circling the globe talking about global warming.
Quote from: reinko on March 01, 2014, 05:05:55 PM
yeah fine. The irony of complaining about droughts, and gov't interference about saving fish, while folks water lawns at will is a bit humorous. Cue you complaining about Al Gore flying on a jet creating pollution while circling the globe talking about global warming.
Context means something. 300 BILLION gallons diverted from farmers for a fish. In only 2 years. 300,000,000,000 gallons.
I'm just eating popcorn on this one as people were warned time and again about some of these policies. It's always fun when the rooster comes knocking on the door to come home to roost. Maybe they can divert the $68 billion for the choo choo train (which will almost certainly cost closer to $100 billion even though the voters passed it for $33 billion just 5 years ago) to help fix some of this. Meanwhile cattle are being culled because ranchers can't feed them due to lack of water, food prices going up, etc, etc. Going to be fun to watch the ballot boxes this year.
Quote from: elephantraker on March 01, 2014, 03:50:56 PM
The humorous side to this, as CBB knows , is that, regardless of how the rainy season adds up, the news papers will have headlines screaming about the immense fire danger in the months ahead. Should we have a dry season they will warn that the vegetation is "bone dry" and prone to combustion. Or ,if the season was unusually wet, they will cry in alarm that the brush has exploded with new growth and is a sever fire hazard. They just rotate theses stories as the conditions warrant.
Yup. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 02, 2014, 09:57:01 AM
Context means something. 300 BILLION gallons diverted from farmers for a fish. In only 2 years. 300,000,000,000 gallons.
I'm just eating popcorn on this one as people were warned time and again about some of these policies. It's always fun when the rooster comes knocking on the door to come home to roost. Maybe they can divert the $68 billion for the choo choo train (which will almost certainly cost closer to $100 billion even though the voters passed it for $33 billion just 5 years ago) to help fix some of this. Meanwhile cattle are being culled because ranchers can't feed them due to lack of water, food prices going up, etc, etc. Going to be fun to watch the ballot boxes this year.
Chicos you would be wise to inform yourself of the entire scenarios before making bold claims. First the 300 Billion gallons of water released wouldn't even been enough for 1/2 the farms in California for 1 year nonetheless two. The problem in California for water is manifold and the delta smelt is not to blame.
First, your use of water from underground aquifers to water your grass contributes significantly to the problem. By draining the aquifers you lower the overall water-soil table. Throughout the region. That means it now requires more water to irrigate crops as you have to provide ample moisture to penetrate deeper into the soil.
Second a historical establishment of "Corporate farms" that replace family farms in the south (Cotton) and midwest (dairy) has led to the importation of very water expensive crops into regions where there isn't any water. So instead of growing these crops in soils and climates that can support them, they are now being grown in California...for really no reason but corporate greed and outdated laws on the National level. The reason for dairy farms in California is that it is as far away from LaCrosse WI as possible, meaning that they got paid the highest prices for Milk (hopefully this law is now gone, but I fear that it is not...for those unaware milk prices were based off distance from LaCrosse WI).
Third, despite being offered incentives, farmers in California are using irrigation techniques that date back 7000 years, instead of using modern approaches that drastically decrease water usage. There are irrigation techniques that could be employed cheaply that would reduce water consumption by 30% annually...but they haven't done it...instead they bitch about not having enough water for their crops.
Finally, the water approaches used in California have destroyed the ecosystem. You naively report it as a fish vs. man, but the environment is far more complex than that. Every thing we do that damages what is perceived of as a local effect, has global repercussions that we don't understand (your water usage indirectly affecting irrigation is a very simple example). Given that there are solutions that could be employed that would solve these problems and save the ecosystem, without major cost, they should be employed first.
My recommended steps:
1. Stop watering lawns in california
2. Encourage farms to leave California and go back to the Midwest and South for water intensive crops (dairy and cotton)...this should be done slowly to limit crop shortages over the short term.
3. Require farms to adopt water conserving irrigation techniques.
If only 1 and 3 were done you would see the water problems in California nearly completely alleviated and the delta smelt would still be alive and well.
I can copy and paste from an environmental website as well. No thanks. Spending some time up here in Ventura this weekend, waiting right now for everyone to shake off the night of drinking...LOL. A bunch of my wife's relatives from the Central Valley (Clovis, Fresno)...they are here and it was a hot topic last night. Lots of people to blame Forgetful, as I mentioned last week. Tons of finger pointing going on right now and I'm just enjoying the Sh!t out of it.
You're not going to take the largest agricultural state in the union and move farms. Secondly, the water being diverted won't solve the problem, never said it would. To your point, however, it would make an enormous dent but the poor smelt fish....we must protect. smh
Watering lawns....red herring mostly, but I'll play along. I'd be fine stopping it, but then you better get all these HOAs and municipalities that fine people for lawns that look like crap or are unkept. And wait until it takes down curb appeal and property values, folks will love that. Are they hypocritical...probably. Of course without the lawns growing what are you going to do with all the undocumented workers here that rely on that work....the libs will go nuts. What a tangled web we weave. LOL
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 02, 2014, 10:39:39 AM
I can copy and paste from an environmental website as well. No thanks. Spending some time up here in Ventura this weekend, waiting right now for everyone to shake off the night of drinking...LOL. A bunch of my wife's relatives from the Central Valley (Clovis, Fresno)...they are here and it was a hot topic last night. Lots of people to blame Forgetful, as I mentioned last week. Tons of finger pointing going on right now and I'm just enjoying the Sh!t out of it.
You're not going to take the largest agricultural state in the union and move farms. Secondly, the water being diverted won't solve the problem, never said it would. To your point, however, it would make an enormous dent but the poor smelt fish....we must protect. smh
Watering lawns....red herring mostly, but I'll play along. I'd be fine stopping it, but then you better get all these HOAs and municipalities that fine people for lawns that look like crap or are unkept. And wait until it takes down curb appeal and property values, folks will love that. Are they hypocritical...probably. Of course without the lawns growing what are you going to do with all the undocumented workers here that rely on that work....the libs will go nuts. What a tangled web we weave. LOL
Never went to a single environmental website for my facts. I don't trust them. To be more specific on the numbers. If all the water (300 billion gallons) had instead been diverted to farms for irrigation it would have been enough water to support 1.3% of the farms. My 1/2 was way way way too generous. So it would not make an ENORMOUS DENT, it would actually be inconsequential.
If you are curious about my numbers, California farmers use 36 million acre ft of water each year to irrigate crops. Each acre ft is 326,000 gallons. So we have 3.6E7 acre ft and 3.26E5 for 1.2E13 total gallons of water for agriculture. In 2 years 3E11 gallons of water were diverted. so that is 1.5E11 gallons per year, divided by the total required 1.2E13 and you have 1.3% of farms could have been irrigated.
If they employed better irrigation approaches they could conserve, 3.5 trillion gallons of water each year. But yeah the 150 billion gallons for the delta smelt is the problem.
Unwatered lawns aren't dropping property values.
Chicos, do the fish vote?
Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 02, 2014, 03:04:44 PM
Chicos, do the fish vote?
No, neither do the cows, chickens, etc. There is a hierarchy on the planet. Just as if I'm out in the forest and a bear decides to make a meal of me, I don't get to vote either if I don't have the ability to defend myself.
Yes, landscaping can have huge impact on property values...lawns, etc. You should read through some of the HMAs here and why they charge $1000 a month to drive property values.
Forgetful, drive up and down highway 99 or I5 sometime when you are out here. For well over a decade there have been signs along the freeway like this. Lots of folks to blame, farmers, politicians, environmentalists, and yes you can blame people for watering their lawns or having swimming pools. I'm going to enjoy my popcorn and watch it unfurl...I know the brilliance in state gov't will certainly not kick the can down the road and certainly will come up with an equitable solution that is financially sound....as I'm sure businesses will do their part as well.
(http://www.highwayhags.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/dustbowl.jpg)
(http://www.agwt.org/sites/default/files/docs/Fresno%20Water%20tech1.jpg)
(http://d3vs4613l1445x.cloudfront.net/archive/x468147802/WaterSigns1-jb-JPG/g30e2200000000000006959fb503da1dded0ce076f056b81708fbea8162.jpg)
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 02, 2014, 10:39:39 AM
I can copy and paste from an environmental website as well. No thanks. Spending some time up here in Ventura this weekend, waiting right now for everyone to shake off the night of drinking...LOL. A bunch of my wife's relatives from the Central Valley (Clovis, Fresno)...they are here and it was a hot topic last night. Lots of people to blame Forgetful, as I mentioned last week. Tons of finger pointing going on right now and I'm just enjoying the Sh!t out of it.
You're not going to take the largest agricultural state in the union and move farms. Secondly, the water being diverted won't solve the problem, never said it would. To your point, however, it would make an enormous dent but the poor smelt fish....we must protect. smh
Watering lawns....red herring mostly, but I'll play along. I'd be fine stopping it, but then you better get all these HOAs and municipalities that fine people for lawns that look like crap or are unkept. And wait until it takes down curb appeal and property values, folks will love that. Are they hypocritical...probably. Of course without the lawns growing what are you going to do with all the undocumented workers here that rely on that work....the libs will go nuts. What a tangled web we weave. LOL
Flippancy vs. scientific rationale. My, my, what your geologist father say?
I guess I won't underestimate the vanity of California then.
When the midwest was faced with the drought of 2012, there were few sparingly green yards out there, even in subdivisions with inground sprinkler systems.
http://juliebillett.com/tag/lawn-care-increases-property-value/
http://www.diynetwork.com/maximum-value-projects-landscaping/package/index.html
http://www.unitedhomeexperts.com/blog/bid/101658/Increasing-Your-Property-Value-With-Lawn-Care
For the record, I'm not anti-environment...in fact I consider myself to be quite pro environment. I put in solar panels last year, we have solar lights, I carpool 5 days a week, etc, etc. I just think too many extremists pull it in one direction and we get silly decisions like this that cost jobs, human lives, etc.
QuoteToday, American lawns occupy some 30-40 million acres of land. Lawnmowers to maintain them account for some 5 percent of the nation's air pollution – probably more in urban areas. Each year more than 17 million gallons of fuel are spilled during the refilling of lawn and garden equipment—more than the oil that the Exxon Valdez spilled.
Homeowners spend billions of dollars and typically use 10 times the amount of pesticide and fertilizers per acre on their lawns as farmers do on crops; the majority of these chemicals are wasted due to inappropriate timing and application. These chemicals then runoff and become a major source of water pollution.Last but not least, 30 to 60 percent of urban fresh water is used on lawns. Most of this water is also wasted due to poor timing and application.
http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/2010/06/04/the-problem-of-lawns/
Listen, I really don't care if people choose to have lawns and water them. But if you do, you have no right to bitch about water being wasted elsewhere.
I don't water my lawn as it would just mean I would have to mow it more often. It grows fast enough as it is. Of course, I live in New England and water shortage isn't so much a problem..............
so is the next Bubble to burst related to Cali farming and H2O?
This all started with Mullholland didn't it?
<popcorn>
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 02, 2014, 05:46:48 PM
Listen, I really don't care if people choose to have lawns and water them. But if you do, you have no right to bitch about water being wasted elsewhere.
We have every right to complain. Drops in the bucket compared to what is being diverted for a fish. If you want to go down the path you are arguing, then why not take it to the extreme. Can't wash your cars anymore. Artificial fields at every high school, no more golf courses, so on and so forth.
300 billion gallons in just two years....diverted for a fish. California supplies so much food to this country, but the delta fish is more important.
PS My lawnmower is rechargeable...no fuel needed.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 03, 2014, 04:42:48 PM
We have every right to complain. Drops in the bucket compared to what is being diverted for a fish. If you want to go down the path you are arguing, then why not take it to the extreme. Can't wash your cars anymore. Artificial fields at every high school, no more golf courses, so on and so forth.
300 billion gallons in just two years....diverted for a fish. California supplies so much food to this country, but the delta fish is more important.
PS My lawnmower is rechargeable...no fuel needed.
Californian's use 1.3 Trillion gallons of water each year for landscaping. That is nearly 10 times as much as has been diverted for fish. So the only thing that is a drop in the bucket is how much is being diverted for the fish. Compared to what is used for landscaping (10 times more) and for agriculture (100 times more) is where the water is going.
But don't let facts get in the way, keep going after the delta smelt as being a problem.
And as for the numbers. Californians use 196 gallons of water per day per capita. 50% of the usage is for landscaping purposes. I rounded up to 200 gallons so that 100 gallons per day for landscaping.
100 gallons multiplied by 38E6 (Population of california) multiplied by 365 days is 1.3 trillion gallons.
I take pride in my lawn and landscaping, I don't need the links.
However, I was happy to let it go brown when ponds and creeks were bone dry two years ago.
Your math is faulty as sprinklers don't run 7 days a week plus much landscaping water is actually recycled water in So Cal. Many signs in Spanish warning that it is not potable .
Quote from: elephantraker on March 03, 2014, 07:57:22 PM
Your math is faulty as sprinklers don't run 7 days a week plus much landscaping water is actually recycled water in So Cal. Many signs in Spanish warning that it is not potable .
The math is based on government statistics that state that 50% of all water used is for landscaping purposes. In that regards it doesn't matter how many days a week they run (total ends up being 50%) and if non potable water is used it wouldn't be included in the total potable water usage.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 01, 2014, 11:36:22 AM
Any state that complains about drought, but allows people to water grass in a desert is idiotic. And yes, I count metro Denver in that group. Don't bitch about clean drinking water when very little of it is used for drinking.
I take it that the purple pipes aren't available to residential owners in metro Denver?
Quote from: forgetful on March 03, 2014, 09:01:28 PM
The math is based on government statistics that state that 50% of all water used is for landscaping purposes. In that regards it doesn't matter how many days a week they run (total ends up being 50%) and if non potable water is used it wouldn't be included in the total potable water usage.
Gov't numbers are usually pretty awesome. Last I heard the gov't stats here in Cal said our choo choo train was going to only cost $33billion. In only 3 years, it became $67billion....now estimates are by the time it will be finished it should come in around $100billion.
I want to be a gov't accountant or finance guy one day where the swag of error can be off by that much without a hint of a problem.
Quote from: PTM on March 03, 2014, 07:46:31 PM
I take pride in my lawn and landscaping, I don't need the links.
However, I was happy to let it go brown when ponds and creeks were bone dry two years ago.
I'd be happier to keep it green, provide the water that is available to farmers to keep their farms running, growing the essential foods this country needs instead of for the smelt fish.
Here come's the other part of the impact I mentioned the other day. So that poorer person in Nebraska feeding their kids, trying to do the right thing will see how much more that Asparagus is, or tomato, avocado, etc, and she will decide to take a pass and unhealthy choices will be made. Happens all the time, one of the biggest reasons the poor gravitate toward fast food....it's cheap. But the good news is, the smelt fish will be ok.
http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/article/20140302/NEWS02/303020018/What-s-drought-California-do-your-groceries-lot-
You know, I think, that it is not about the smelt fish, per se, but with a link in the food chain.
AP - Forecasters see El Nino warming of Pacific Ocean
WASHINGTON (AP) — U.S. federal forecasters predict a warming of the central Pacific Ocean this year that will change weather worldwide.
The warming, called an El Nino, can mean an even hotter year coming up and billions of dollars in losses for food crops. Australia and South Africa should be dry while parts of South America become dry and parts become wet in an El Nino. Peru suffers the most, getting floods and poorer fishing.
But it could bring good news for some parts of the planet, leading to fewer Atlantic hurricanes and more rain next winter for drought-stricken California and southern U.S. states. It could also bring and a milder winter for the frigid U.S. northern tier next year, meteorologists say
The National Oceanic Atmospheric and Administration issued an official El Nino watch Thursday. An El Nino is a warming of the central Pacific once every few years, from a combination of wind and waves in the tropics. It shakes up climate around the world, changing rain and temperature patterns.
Mike Halpert, acting director of NOAA's Climate Prediction Center, says the El Nino warming should develop by this summer, but that there are no guarantees. Although early signs are appearing already a few hundred feet below the ocean surface, meteorologists say an El Nino started to brew in 2012 and then shut down suddenly and unexpectedly.
The flip side of El Nino is called a La Nina, which has a general cooling effect. It has been much more frequent than El Ninos lately, with five La Ninas and two small-to-moderate El Ninos in the past nine years. The last big El Nino was 1997-1998. Neither has appeared since mid-2012. El Ninos are usually strongest from December to April.
Kevin Trenberth, a senior scientist at the National Center for Atmospheric Research, who wasn't part of NOAA's forecast, agreed that an El Nino is brewing.
"This could be a substantial event and I think we're due," Trenberth said. "And I think it could have major consequences."
Scientific studies have tied El Ninos to farming and fishing problems and to upticks in insect-born disease, such as malaria. Commodity traders even track El Nino cycles. A study by Texas A&M University economics professor Bruce McCarl found the last big El Nino of 1997-1998 cost about $3 billion in agricultural damage.
Trenberth said this El Nino may even push the globe out of a decade-long slowdown in temperature increase, "so suddenly global warming kicks into a whole new level."
Halpert, however, says El Ninos can be beneficial, and that the one being forecast is "a perfect case."
After years of dryness and low reservoirs, an El Nino's wet weather would be welcome in places like California, Halpert said.
"If they get too much rain, I think they'd rather have that situation rather than another year of drought," Halpert said. "Sometimes you have to pick your poison."
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Of course, the above copy/paste job is merely an excuse for me to post this:
http://www.youtube.com/v/mkSRUf02gu8
Spanish for...The Nino.
Quote from: Benny B on March 06, 2014, 11:57:41 AM
AP - Forecasters see El Nino warming of Pacific Ocean
WASHINGTON (AP) — U.S. federal forecasters predict a warming of the central Pacific Ocean this year that will change weather worldwide.
The warming, called an El Nino, can mean an even hotter year coming up and billions of dollars in losses for food crops. Australia and South Africa should be dry while parts of South America become dry and parts become wet in an El Nino. Peru suffers the most, getting floods and poorer fishing.
But it could bring good news for some parts of the planet, leading to fewer Atlantic hurricanes and more rain next winter for drought-stricken California and southern U.S. states. It could also bring and a milder winter for the frigid U.S. northern tier next year, meteorologists say
The National Oceanic Atmospheric and Administration issued an official El Nino watch Thursday. An El Nino is a warming of the central Pacific once every few years, from a combination of wind and waves in the tropics. It shakes up climate around the world, changing rain and temperature patterns.
Mike Halpert, acting director of NOAA's Climate Prediction Center, says the El Nino warming should develop by this summer, but that there are no guarantees. Although early signs are appearing already a few hundred feet below the ocean surface, meteorologists say an El Nino started to brew in 2012 and then shut down suddenly and unexpectedly.
The flip side of El Nino is called a La Nina, which has a general cooling effect. It has been much more frequent than El Ninos lately, with five La Ninas and two small-to-moderate El Ninos in the past nine years. The last big El Nino was 1997-1998. Neither has appeared since mid-2012. El Ninos are usually strongest from December to April.
Kevin Trenberth, a senior scientist at the National Center for Atmospheric Research, who wasn't part of NOAA's forecast, agreed that an El Nino is brewing.
"This could be a substantial event and I think we're due," Trenberth said. "And I think it could have major consequences."
Scientific studies have tied El Ninos to farming and fishing problems and to upticks in insect-born disease, such as malaria. Commodity traders even track El Nino cycles. A study by Texas A&M University economics professor Bruce McCarl found the last big El Nino of 1997-1998 cost about $3 billion in agricultural damage.
Trenberth said this El Nino may even push the globe out of a decade-long slowdown in temperature increase, "so suddenly global warming kicks into a whole new level."
Halpert, however, says El Ninos can be beneficial, and that the one being forecast is "a perfect case."
After years of dryness and low reservoirs, an El Nino's wet weather would be welcome in places like California, Halpert said.
"If they get too much rain, I think they'd rather have that situation rather than another year of drought," Halpert said. "Sometimes you have to pick your poison."
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Of course, the above copy/paste job is merely an excuse for me to post this:
http://www.youtube.com/v/mkSRUf02gu8
The fall of the predecessor of the Inca empire has been blamed on a significant El Nino if I am remembering the book 1491 correctly.
Quote from: mu03eng on March 06, 2014, 12:33:31 PM
The fall of the predecessor of the Inca empire has been blamed on a significant El Nino if I am remembering the book 1491 correctly.
I think you got it correct. Did you read 1493?
Quote from: brandx on March 04, 2014, 09:30:05 AM
You know, I think, that it is not about the smelt fish, per se, but with a link in the food chain.
Shhhh. Everything is black and white. Smelt fish vs. people!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on March 06, 2014, 03:10:09 PM
I think you got it correct. Did you read 1493?
Not yet, it's on the bed side table along with about 7 other books I haven't gotten around to yet.
Quote from: mu03eng on March 06, 2014, 04:00:59 PM
Not yet, it's on the bed side table along with about 7 other books I haven't gotten around to yet.
Sounds about right for me also. I have a stack of like 7 also.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on March 06, 2014, 08:20:17 PM
Sounds about right for me also. I have a stack of like 7 also.
so, you guys in the same bed, aina?
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 06, 2014, 09:20:52 PM
so, you guys in the same bed, aina?
Only when we're sleeping
Quote from: Bleuteaux on March 06, 2014, 03:15:56 PM
Shhhh. Everything is black and white. Smelt fish vs. people!!!!!!!!!
Nothing is black and white, but even shades of gray we are making decisions of fish over people to some degree. It's absurd.
Quote from: Benny B on March 06, 2014, 11:57:41 AM
AP - Forecasters see El Nino warming of Pacific Ocean
What about this one.....
"In its 2013 Atlantic hurricane season outlook issued today, NOAA's Climate Prediction Center is forecasting an active or extremely active season this year."
What actually happened? Quietest hurricane season on record.
Or this one.....
Bloomberg Businessweek reports that the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's Climate Prediction Center (CPC) predicted temperatures would be "above normal from November through January across much of the lower 48 states."
What actually happened? Currently the second coldest winter on record.....the Farmer's Almanac did a better job of predicting the weather this year.
http://dailycaller.com/2014/02/20/report-farmers-almanac-more-accurate-than-govt-climate-scientists/
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 07, 2014, 01:56:39 PM
What about this one.....
"In its 2013 Atlantic hurricane season outlook issued today, NOAA's Climate Prediction Center is forecasting an active or extremely active season this year."
What actually happened? Quietest hurricane season on record.
Or this one.....
Bloomberg Businessweek reports that the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's Climate Prediction Center (CPC) predicted temperatures would be "above normal from November through January across much of the lower 48 states."
What actually happened? Currently the second coldest winter on record.....the Farmer's Almanac did a better job of predicting the weather this year.
http://dailycaller.com/2014/02/20/report-farmers-almanac-more-accurate-than-govt-climate-scientists/
It's almost like looking at samples larger than one year might be relevant.
FWIW, I'm Team Smelt. Never met a smelt that wasn't delicious. People on the other hand...
Quote from: akmarq on March 07, 2014, 02:57:33 PM
It's almost like looking at samples larger than one year might be relevant.
FWIW, I'm Team Smelt. Never met a smelt that wasn't delicious. People on the other hand...
It's a matter of salt....I mean, umm, what?
I find vegetables, fruits, nuts, etc to be much more tasty than the smelt fish...those other things need water and farmers to grow them. Plus they bring in billions of dollars for the state economy.
Quote from: mu03eng on March 07, 2014, 02:59:13 PM
It's a matter of salt....I mean, umm, what?
To be fair - pretty much anything deep fried and served with potato pancake, coleslaw, and rye bread is fine by me.
First Chicos complains about all the nuts in California, then be says he likes them and they bring money to the state. His opinions are more unpredictable than next year's weather!
Quote from: akmarq on March 07, 2014, 03:04:57 PM
To be fair - pretty much anything deep fried and served with potato pancake, coleslaw, and rye bread is fine by me.
First Chicos complains about all the nuts in California, then be says he likes them and they bring money to the state. His opinions are more unpredictable than next year's weather!
Well played. Human fruits and nuts I hear taste much worse than regular fruits and nuts grown on trees.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 07, 2014, 03:00:29 PM
I find vegetables, fruits, nuts, etc to be much more tasty than the smelt fish...those other things need water and farmers to grow them. Plus they bring in billions of dollars for the state economy.
You keep commenting that this smelt water diversion is significant....I showed you the facts that say the amount of water diverted is insignificant to agricultural needs.
I'm sure if you did a complete analysis of the food chain, you would find that the amount of wildlife supported by the diverted water is greater than the whole additional crops you could grow with that small amount (1.3% of what is needed for agriculture).