Is it just a simple coincidence that the team is starting to show signs of life these last 3 games, that have also coincided with Todd Mayo finally getting extensive minutes (32 against X), over long stretches of playing time and an overall shortened rotation? Or is it safe to say, Todd being on the floor greatly benefits the other 4 guys quite a bit, as does the shortened rotation to where guys get in better flow?
My vote is Todd makes the whole team better being the triple threat to score that he is - from 3, the midrange, and going to the basket...and that the optimum results for a basketball team are to have an 8-9 man max rotation...
Looks like Buzz is finally figuring the rotation out...and finally has freed Todd Mayo...FINALLY!! It's taken almost 3 full years for Todd to have finally gotten PT commensurate with his talent level.
Might be commensurate with his talent level, but how bout his maturity level?
Mayo's D was awful in the game.
He allowed his guys 15 points in 2nd half. Having said that, Anderson's (the guy replaced by Mayo) was also terrible in the cup of coffee time he was in. Anderson allowed his guy to score 5 quick points to start the 2nd half, which gave Buzz the impetus to immediately send the guy to the pines.
I agree with your general premise, Ners. Buzz does, too.
His go-to lineup officially has become Derrick, Jake, Mayo, Jamil and Gardner, with Otule coming in for defensive purposes.
I never argue with something that works -- though it works a lot better when Jake is hitting open 3s and when Derrick is aggressively looking for openings.
This lineup will almost always have trouble on the boards. Coaching is all about tradeoffs, however, and Buzz has correctly concluded that this is a tradeoff worth making.
Quote from: g0lden3agle on February 16, 2014, 06:52:02 AM
Might be commensurate with his talent level, but how bout his maturity level?
Yep. Mayo was responsible for Mayo not playing more...not Buzz.
Quote from: The Sultan of Serenity on February 16, 2014, 07:12:39 AM
Yep. Mayo was responsible for Mayo not playing more...not Buzz.
I see you say this all the time. It's simply BS. You play to win the game. Period. Play your best guys. Look what's happening NOW, NOW finally he has allowed Todd to play more. Wahla...MU is winning games. It didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what was going to fix the problem, but apparently it took Buzz that long. When they were struggling early on, I told anyone that would listen, if he wants to fix this problem he NEEDS to play Todd more, and play him consistent minutes. He brings more to this team than anyone else with what he is able to do offensively. Attitude be damned. If it was THAT bad Buzz would have never brought him back last year.
Quote from: muguru on February 16, 2014, 07:29:26 AM
I see you say this all the time. It's simply BS. You play to win the game. Period. Play your best guys. Look what's happening NOW, NOW finally he has allowed Todd to play more. Wahla...MU is winning games. It didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what was going to fix the problem, but apparently it took Buzz that long. When they were struggling early on, I told anyone that would listen, if he wants to fix this problem he NEEDS to play Todd more, and play him consistent minutes. He brings more to this team than anyone else with what he is able to do offensively. Attitude be damned. If it was THAT bad Buzz would have never brought him back last year.
Now TODD has finally allowed himself to be played more. He isn't academically ineligible, which stunted his growth last year. He isn't late for practice, which caused him to be suspended this year. Did you ever think that he is playing more now because he possibly has figured it out and *earned* his playing time? That maybe Buzz's approach with him has worked? And he has played 20+ mpg in every game since before Christmas with only two exceptions. It's not as though Buzz never played the guy.
Todd played 20+ mpg as a freshman. The most any freshman has played under Buzz. Todd is the one responsible for his problems.
Mayo is playing better on offense and needs to get better on defense. He is improving and that is part of why he is playing. However, for most of the season he was the replacement for Thomas. Now he is playing in a three guard offense with Derrick and Thomas. Given that Buzz often has used a three guard lineup, it seems like he took a long time to come up with this combination. Of course he had to experiment with Jamil at three and Gardner at four.
Quote from: muguru on February 16, 2014, 07:29:26 AM
I see you say this all the time. It's simply BS. You play to win the game. Period. Play your best guys. Look what's happening NOW, NOW finally he has allowed Todd to play more. Wahla...MU is winning games. It didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what was going to fix the problem, but apparently it took Buzz that long. When they were struggling early on, I told anyone that would listen, if he wants to fix this problem he NEEDS to play Todd more, and play him consistent minutes. He brings more to this team than anyone else with what he is able to do offensively. Attitude be damned. If it was THAT bad Buzz would have never brought him back last year.
Yeah, the coach "allows" players to play. And of course the coach, who actually has broader concerns than one game, or one player, or even one season, has no idea or plan for what he is doing. Those previous six years where he managed to get just about every player on the team to overperform because he "allowed" them to play must have been a fluke. This team, finally coming together somewhat despite their limitations, certainly learned nothing from the coaching staff. Buzz, who has to deal with the entire team every day, should just forget his priorities and play Todd as much as you want, because Todd has been the model of consistency and responsibility.
You are obviously rooting for a different program, because it's pretty clear what you want is not going to happen while Buzz is in charge.
Quote from: bilsu on February 16, 2014, 07:50:17 AM
Mayo is playing better on offense and needs to get better on defense. He is improving and that is part of why he is playing. However, for most of the season he was the replacement for Thomas. Now he is playing in a three guard offense with Derrick and Thomas. Given that Buzz often has used a three guard lineup, it seems like he took a long time to come up with this combination. Of course he had to experiment with Jamil at three and Gardner at four.
The problem that Buzz faces with *this* three guard line up though manifested itself yesterday. Rebounding is really going to be a problem with this group. None of the three guards can rebound like Vander or Trent could. (Vander played that wing-guard position as a sophomore that Trent played last year.) And as willie said, Todd wasn't great on defense last year.
This is why he likes starting Juan. Juan is a better defender, especially with his length against a team like Xavier.
Quote from: connie on February 16, 2014, 07:53:23 AM
Yeah, the coach "allows" players to play. And of course the coach, who actually has broader concerns than one game, or one player, or even one season, has no idea or plan for what he is doing. Those previous six years where he managed to get just about every player on the team to overperform because he "allowed" them to play must have been a fluke. This team, finally coming together somewhat despite their limitations, certainly learned nothing from the coaching staff. Buzz, who has to deal with the entire team every day, should just forget his priorities and play Todd as much as you want, because Todd has been the model of consistency and responsibility.
You are obviously rooting for a different program, because it's pretty clear what you want is not going to happen while Buzz is in charge.
Yep.
One of the things that bothers me about how people look at teams and players, is that they view them as "static." That outside of freshmen, they can't grow during a season. You can see it in players like Derrick who are playing a lot better now than they were earlier. My guess is that Buzz sees it in Todd as well. It's not as though Buzz was willfully ignoring Todd Mayo.
Its nice to see that Todd is doing more with the minutes he has been given lately. There have been games where he was an absolute ghost.
Quote from: The Sultan of Serenity on February 16, 2014, 08:00:36 AM
The problem that Buzz faces with *this* three guard line up though manifested itself yesterday. Rebounding is really going to be a problem with this group. None of the three guards can rebound like Vander or Trent could. (Vander played that wing-guard position as a sophomore that Trent played last year.) And as willie said, Todd wasn't great on defense last year.
This is why he likes starting Juan. Juan is a better defender, especially with his length against a team like Xavier.
Agreed. Derrick is a pretty decent rebounder for his size and position, but the rest of the guys in this lineup are pretty so-so given their size and minutes played. Yesterday at least, we made up for the rebounding deficit with TOs.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on February 16, 2014, 08:12:34 AM
Its nice to see that Todd Derrick is doing more with the minutes he has been given lately. There have been games where he was an absolute ghost.
Fixed. :D
Every guy on the team has had poor, ghost like games. Not every guy on the team has been given max minutes, of extended run, and allowed the ability to play through tough stretches or ghost stretches - other than Derrick and Jake.
It's been plainly obvious to many that Mayo has a lot of talent, since he arrived at the program. He's had a few off court issues - but so did Vander, so did Junior, so did DJO - West Virginia suspensions come to mind, Junior being suspended at Madison as a Junior, when Derrick filled in for him. Vander with the worst of offenses - in punching another student...and it never affected Vander's PT.
Vander punched another student before the season began his freshman year.
Todd's issues continued into his junior year.
They aren't really comparable.
Quote from: muguru on February 16, 2014, 07:29:26 AM
I see you say this all the time. It's simply BS. You play to win the game. Period. Play your best guys. Look what's happening NOW, NOW finally he has allowed Todd to play more. Wahla...MU is winning games. It didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what was going to fix the problem, but apparently it took Buzz that long. When they were struggling early on, I told anyone that would listen, if he wants to fix this problem he NEEDS to play Todd more, and play him consistent minutes. He brings more to this team than anyone else with what he is able to do offensively. Attitude be damned. If it was THAT bad Buzz would have never brought him back last year.
Have you ever been a coach? Or a part of upper management at any level? Or anybody in charge of managing a group of people?
A manager must have standards. He must hold his charges to those standards and must be prepared to mete out punishment or other consequences for failure to comply with standards.
Nothing operates in a vacuum. If an underling blatantly disregards standards and the manager does nothing, then every other underling sees that there are no consequences to disregard standards. And the same people who are saying the manager should "play to win the game" will claim the manager should be fired for lacking control and letting the inmates run the asylum.
A manager always must focus on the big picture as well as the near-term situation.
Buzz held Todd accountable. What message would it send to the rest of the team, to the fans, to the MU administration, if Buzz let someone play without requiring them to be accountable, to play defense, to be a good teammate, simply because he could score? Instead, Buzz has said that he is the coach, that he will forgive transgressions, but players have to earn their way back into consistent minutes. Todd has become an example of positive leadership, of accountability, instead of an example of putting winning before character. Why is this even a debate?
Quote from: The Sultan of Serenity on February 16, 2014, 08:55:22 AM
Vander punched another student before the season began his freshman year.
Todd's issues continued into his junior year.
They aren't really comparable.
In my view punching another student is a lot more of an issue than being minutes late to a couple of practices...and struggling academically. And as noted, there have been plenty of other guys suspended for games, 1/2 games during Buzz's time beyond Todd...
And wasn't Vander's deal during his sophomore year - not that the deed in and of itself is any less of an "issue."
Whatever the case, I'm just glad to see Todd finally getting long stretches of uninterrupted playing time...it's what he needs, and what the team needs.
Quote from: Ners on February 16, 2014, 09:26:41 AM
In my view punching another student is a lot more of an issue than being minutes late to a couple of practices...and struggling academically.
That's great. When you're coaching the team that information will actually be relevant.
I don't think his D is as bad as some of you are saying. There were a ton of unnoticed plays yesterday I thought he made really smart play on D but guy made tough shot or it was more help D's fault.
October 24, 2010...freshman year.
And there has been a lot with Todd beyond just being a couple minutes late for practice. Believe me.
Practice determines play. We don't know what goes on there but you don't use a game to let a player figure it out. Buzz sees the team everyday and knows how they struggle against the game plan so it doesn't surprise me that certain players get pulled quickly during the game. If they couldn't get a defensive switch in practice and missed it multiple times in a game, it is not like they are magically going to get it.
Fans see the game and think a player is mistreated because coach doesn't give him time to figure it out but coach gave him all of practice etc.
If we look at mayo time in the last three opponents versus the first time we played them we see
Seton Hall +1
Butler +3
Xavier +9
Both Butler and Xavier were home games. Only in the Xavier game did Mayo get significantly more minutes.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on February 16, 2014, 09:30:08 AM
That's great. When you're coaching the team that information will actually be relevant.
That's funny. When you become a stand up comedian, your jokes will actually become relevant - but hopefully a lot funnier.
Todd Mayo is a legitimate high D-1 offensive threat.He needs to play as minutes as possible the rest of the season. When he gets into the flow of the game the rest of the team is able to utilize their particular strengths to a much higher efficiency.
I reviewed our conference games and we only have 4 games where Buzz had more than 8 players with significant minutes. I used 10 minutes because anything less is not a run.
The four games were Creighton, Xavier RD 1, Providence, and St John's. two of those games were blowouts so is it a surprise that Buzz went deeper into the bench? Providence was part of the game plan as they have a very short bench and this strategy worked. At Xavier we had two players battling foul trouble. Jamil only was able to play 12 minutes and Wilson only 22. Both fouled out.
I would say that Buzz has been playing an shortened rotation for a while but gave players spot minutes for breathers. in the 4 games we went above that there was a valid reason that he did.
The truth with Todd is somewhere in the middle. It takes awhile to overcome a multitude of issues, second, third, fourth chances to warrant being a person that can be counted on. It's also no secret that Todd was the upperclassmen (perhaps not alone) that brought frustrations with how his minutes were being handled to Buzz a couple weeks ago, and since that happened he has been used differently.
What a difference the game was from early in the year. Guys are looking to score now instead of whatever the goal was on offense earlier. When Jake or Todd or Jamil was open on the wing, instead of passing the ball around the perimeter, they looked to score whether it was shooting the jumper or taking it to the hoop.
Took a long time to get there this year.
Like most teams you need 3 scorers, Todd can give you 10-15 every night, Juan a basket or two. If Jake is not on fire like yesterday, they need a third scorer. Jamil needs to score and lately
he is putting up shots in the first half and not playing passive. You win when all three can score, but when Jake and even Derrick score they are that much better. Crieghton is beatable as long as they are controlled on the 3 point line, rather see them score a two then a three all the time. Have to play your man, not doubling all the time. They can double McDerrmott, but that
is it. It is more important to guard McDermott on three point line. The three frosh can wait there turn, Taylor as you can tell, can not guard. Win with the veterans, one game at a time. Nice
to see Chief Cohen in the audience wearing an MU jersey, any other recruits at the game? Ahmed Hill must be excited to take Jakes place next year, a three point shooter in college is essential
for numerous reasons.
Todd determines Todd's minutes. He is clearly one of our most talented players and makes the team better. Unless Buzz is trying to take this season, he would only not play Todd if there were off the court issues, practice issues, or not playing to the game plan issues. All of those are within Todd's ability to control.
Someone made a great post on here a while ago about the importance of basing playing time off following the coach's plan rather than by talent. What kind of message does it send to the team if a player gets to play when he is ignoring the coach's directions? The rules only apply if you aren't talented? Well all these kids think they are talented. It would be anarchy.
I'm glad Todd has found his way onto the court. We need him out there.
BTW, Todd has been in our top 5 minutes per game all season. So he's been getting starter's minutes all year
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 16, 2014, 10:55:08 AM
Someone made a great post on here a while ago about the importance of basing playing time off following the coach's plan rather than by talent. What kind of message does it send to the team if a player gets to play when he is ignoring the coach's directions? The rules only apply if you aren't talented?
I have the answer: it is called St. John's. All that talent the past few seasons and this is their first shot at a tourney bid. And even then they are a bubble team.
Quote from: The Sultan of Serenity on February 16, 2014, 07:39:26 AM
Now TODD has finally allowed himself to be played more. He isn't academically ineligible, which stunted his growth last year. He isn't late for practice, which caused him to be suspended this year. Did you ever think that he is playing more now because he possibly has figured it out and *earned* his playing time? That maybe Buzz's approach with him has worked? And he has played 20+ mpg in every game since before Christmas with only two exceptions. It's not as though Buzz never played the guy.
Todd played 20+ mpg as a freshman. The most any freshman has played under Buzz. Todd is the one responsible for his problems.
See heres the thing. Peoples perceptions about todd are not correct if you see Buzz quotes during games. Even he acknowledges that Todd wants a longer leash. Oj freaking Mayo acknowledges it.
If he's late for practice and is bench for a full GAME. Fine. We are talking about him coming off the bench, playing 3 minutes, turning the ball over and hitting the bench again. Not acceptable.
It's not about his behavior or lack there of. It's about the amount of time/stretches he gets WHEN HE IS DRESSED AND AVAIALABLE.
Sorry, but Buzz doesn't think "Dang Todd wasn't eligible last year for a portion of 2012 so I'm going to pull him after 3 minutes in a 2014 game against Butler.
Quote from: The Sultan of Serenity on February 16, 2014, 08:00:36 AM
The problem that Buzz faces with *this* three guard line up though manifested itself yesterday. Rebounding is really going to be a problem with this group. None of the three guards can rebound like Vander or Trent could. (Vander played that wing-guard position as a sophomore that Trent played last year.) And as willie said, Todd wasn't great on defense last year.
This is why he likes starting Juan. Juan is a better defender, especially with his length against a team like Xavier.
No, its a problem against a team like Xavier. Maybe Butler too but they are bad.
No other team in this league rebounds like Xavier. They kicked our ass on the boards no matter who was out there. Ox? Chris? Jamil? Steve? you name them, we were not going to rebound.
And do not try to justify starting Juan or more importantly the starting 5 we have went with the last two game. I will rattle off the difference in play if need be.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on February 16, 2014, 11:00:09 AM
I have the answer: it is called St. John's. All that talent the past few seasons and this is their first shot at a tourney bid. And even then they are a bubble team.
They made the NCAAs in 2011 under Lavin.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on February 16, 2014, 12:15:56 PM
Sorry, but Buzz doesn't think "Dang Todd wasn't eligible last year for a portion of 2012 so I'm going to pull him after 3 minutes in a 2014 game against Butler.
Not what I said, nor is it what I implied.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on February 16, 2014, 12:18:43 PM
And do not try to justify starting Juan or more importantly the starting 5 we have went with the last two game. I will rattle off the difference in play if need be.
Here is all the justification I need....
Last two games with that line up...two leads when Juan and Otule were subbed out. Game. Set. Match.
Quote from: MU82 on February 16, 2014, 09:01:03 AM
Have you ever been a coach?
I coached Little League in Jakarta.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on February 16, 2014, 12:15:56 PM
See heres the thing. Peoples perceptions about todd are not correct if you see Buzz quotes during games. Even he acknowledges that Todd wants a longer leash. Oj freaking Mayo acknowledges it.
If he's late for practice and is bench for a full GAME. Fine. We are talking about him coming off the bench, playing 3 minutes, turning the ball over and hitting the bench again. Not acceptable.
It's not about his behavior or lack there of. It's about the amount of time/stretches he gets WHEN HE IS DRESSED AND AVAIALABLE.
Sorry, but Buzz doesn't think "Dang Todd wasn't eligible last year for a portion of 2012 so I'm going to pull him after 3 minutes in a 2014 game against Butler.
Thank you!! This sums up exactly what I was trying to convey.
Quote from: The Sultan of Serenity on February 16, 2014, 12:24:14 PM
Here is all the justification I need....
Last two games with that line up...two leads when Juan and Otule were subbed out. Game. Set. Match.
Alright game on.
yesterday, Stainbrook was abusing Chris down low to start(did miss a bunny) We were down 6-4. Jake happened to hit a 3 right as Todd and Ox were to be subbed in. So, 7-6. I guess, youre right we were up by 1. After that? 12-2 run with Todd and Ox in.
Second half is where this get's really fun. Xavier quickly cuts it to 5. Buzz being the smart man that he is realizes this lineup is just not logical. It brings Todd and Ox to the scorers table. We have awful stagnant offense but get a gift from god and have Xavier deflect the ball out of bounds. In come the boys. Jake immediately is found off a screen for the in bounds 3. You may say coincidence, why wouldn't you? I say it's because we have more scoring threats. But let's not allow that to be the only example....Jake canned a couple more 3s after that!!!! Why????? Because the other team simple cannot just focuse on disallowing his shot when you have Todd who will take it to the rack at will and a 290 pound bull.
GAME. SET. AND MATCH.
stupid double post
No doubt that until the offense/defense sets started with Ox and Chris that getting the 'Big 5' out on the floor was a key to success yesterday.
Look, MU's recipe for success this year is quite restricted. Buzz has necessarily had to sacrifice some things he holds dear to generate wins in non-traditional ways. Yesterday we again lost the battle of the boards while we absolutely owned the turnover margin denying Xavier enough possessions to generally hold a meaningful 3-4 possession lead throughout. Todd's minutes reflect the development of our 3 guard lineup.
What's not lost on me is Jamil's improving ability to stay out of foul trouble and remain on the floor for extended minutes. He picked up his second foul yesterday with about a minute to go in the half. It was never a factor in the second. Jamil has to be on the floor.
Quote from: jsglow on February 16, 2014, 01:05:31 PM
Buzz has necessarily had to sacrifice some things he holds dear to generate wins in non-traditional ways.
Glow
Why the hate for Jake?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 16, 2014, 12:20:30 PM
They made the NCAAs in 2011 under Lavin.
IIRC, that wasn't his team though. That was really his predecessor's team.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on February 16, 2014, 12:33:58 PM
Alright game on.
yesterday, Stainbrook was abusing Chris down low to start(did miss a bunny) We were down 6-4. Jake happened to hit a 3 right as Todd and Ox were to be subbed in. So, 7-6. I guess, youre right we were up by 1. After that? 12-2 run with Todd and Ox in.
Second half is where this get's really fun. Xavier quickly cuts it to 5. Buzz being the smart man that he is realizes this lineup is just not logical. It brings Todd and Ox to the scorers table. We have awful stagnant offense but get a gift from god and have Xavier deflect the ball out of bounds. In come the boys. Jake immediately is found off a screen for the in bounds 3. You may say coincidence, why wouldn't you? I say it's because we have more scoring threats. But let's not allow that to be the only example....Jake canned a couple more 3s after that!!!! Why????? Because the other team simple cannot just focuse on disallowing his shot when you have Todd who will take it to the rack at will and a 290 pound bull.
GAME. SET. AND MATCH.
Right...so they extended the lead the starters already built. Therefore I believe the starting line-up is justified.
Your screaming isn't going to change my mind either.
Quote from: The Sultan of Serenity on February 16, 2014, 02:18:28 PM
Right...so they extended the lead the starters already built. Therefore I believe the starting line-up is justified.
Your screaming isn't going to change my mind either.
yeah, I know your mind doesn't change. I think it is clear you have the "everyone gets a participation trophy" view on things and losing is ok. We have been over this.
But yeah that lineup has built so many leads!!!! we were 8-5 in the non conference!!! Let's go!!!
O and you can ignore the vanishing second half lead til todd came in.
It's alright!!! What would this board be if we didn't have the occaisional subjective fan.
I'll watch the games. provide specific objective examples. You remain subjective with "shouting" deflections. Everyone else will read the comments. Gain some valuable knowledge(not provided by you).
And the board will carry on!!!
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on February 16, 2014, 02:26:28 PM
yeah, I know your mind doesn't change. I think it is clear you have the "everyone gets a participation trophy" view on things and losing is ok. We have been over this.
Never said anything of the sort. I just think that Buzz wants to start a defensive line up, and that's OK with me when they actually build leads. Why would anyone argue with those results?
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on February 16, 2014, 02:26:28 PM
But yeah that lineup has built so many leads!!!! we were 8-5 in the non conference!!! Let's go!!!
Uhhh...how many times has that particular line up actually started? Do you know?
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on February 16, 2014, 02:26:28 PM
O and you can ignore the vanishing second half lead til todd came in.
Not sure why you don't think I like Todd playing. I had been arguing for him playing more minutes for awhile.
Quote from: The Sultan of Serenity on February 16, 2014, 02:37:17 PM
Never said anything of the sort. I just think that Buzz wants to start a defensive line up, and that's OK with me when they actually build leads. Why would anyone argue with those results?
Uhhh...how many times has that particular line up actually started? Do you know?
Not sure why you don't think I like Todd playing. I had been arguing for him playing more minutes for awhile.
That being a "defensive" lineup is a myth though. That group gets scored on all the time. Heck while 6 wasn't even a lot in a 4ish minute stretch its a lot more then the 2 that the offensive group gave up during the onslaught. Then I can point to games like ASU where they got murdered.
How times has it started? No idea but almost positive all of non conference so my 8-5 points stands. If not, I know Ox didn't start during non conference and Todd couldn't pay 5 million to start. So the starting 4 guys who can't score thing stands.
I guess I don't know your views on Todd. You are always playing the devils advocate side to pro Todd. So it comes across as you being fine that he's not playing.
As I said a few posts prior. If he gets in trouble and is not allowed to play, that is fine. That is on him. There are standards. But, if he is deemed ready and able to play in a game the taking him out after a small stretch because he cuases a turnover(usually this) or maybe a bad shot. Is just straight up dumb.
We are seeing now the last few games that even while we still have many imperfections. This team is capable of winning basketball games when a certain group of 5 get minutes together.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on February 16, 2014, 02:51:59 PM
I guess I don't know your views on Todd. You are always playing the devils advocate side to pro Todd. So it comes across as you being fine that he's not playing.
That's because you continue not to be able to tell the difference between "being fine that he's not playing," and understanding *why* he is playing the role he is.
Quote from: The Sultan of Serenity on February 16, 2014, 04:56:51 PM
That's because you continue not to be able to tell the difference between "being fine that he's not playing," and understanding *why* he is playing the role he is.
But I don't think you do. As I now will have to say for the 3rd time today....he has gotten inconsistent stretches all year long...except the last 2 games could make a case for last 3.
And guess what we have won!!!
So whatever it is that you are understanding. Is not a correct approach. Buzz has done wonder since being here but his use of Todd has been one of his miscues. He may have just corrected that miscues in the knick of time if we keep this streak up.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on February 16, 2014, 05:02:35 PM
But I don't think you do. As I now will have to say for the 3rd time today....he has gotten inconsistent stretches all year long...except the last 2 games could make a case for last 3.
And guess what we have won!!!
So whatever it is that you are understanding. Is not a correct approach. Buzz has done wonder since being here but his use of Todd has been one of his miscues. He may have just corrected that miscues in the knick of time if we keep this streak up.
Given Todd's lack of personal accountability, I completely understand why Buzz hasn't had the faith to play him more. Good thing that Todd is making the most of of his earned opportunity.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on February 16, 2014, 05:02:35 PM
But I don't think you do. As I now will have to say for the 3rd time today....he has gotten inconsistent stretches all year long...except the last 2 games could make a case for last 3.
Define inconsistent. In 12 conference games, he play 20+ minutes 10 times. Marquette is 6-4 in that stretch.
In the two games he did not get 20+, MU was 1-1. One being GU and the other SJU. SJU was not Mayo's best game so we can understand why he did not get his average.
In 7 of the 12 he played 26+, MU is 5 - 2. He only has one game above 30+ and MU is 1-0. The majority of his conference games are between 26-29 minutes. I would say that is fairly consistent. Of MU's 25 games, Mayo had two DNP (one injury and one suspension) so he appeared in 23 games. He played 20+ minutes in 18 of those.
The five were:
Grambling State - 17 minutes in a blow out so he was being protected.
CS Fullerton - 8 recovering from the sprained ankle so again limited minutes
Ball State - 9 minutes in a blow out so he was being protected
GU and SJU that I mentioned earlier.
If you mean he isn't getting enough minutes that is another story but his minutes have been consistent.
Quote from: BallBoy on February 16, 2014, 06:04:52 PM
Define inconsistent. In 12 conference games, he play 20+ minutes 10 times. Marquette is 6-4 in that stretch.
In the two games he did not get 20+, MU was 1-1. One being GU and the other SJU. SJU was not Mayo's best game so we can understand why he did not get his average.
In 7 of the 12 he played 26+, MU is 5 - 2. He only has one game above 30+ and MU is 1-0. The majority of his conference games are between 26-29 minutes. I would say that is fairly consistent. Of MU's 25 games, Mayo had two DNP (one injury and one suspension) so he appeared in 23 games. He played 20+ minutes in 18 of those.
The five were:
Grambling State - 17 minutes in a blow out so he was being protected.
CS Fullerton - 8 recovering from the sprained ankle so again limited minutes
Ball State - 9 minutes in a blow out so he was being protected
GU and SJU that I mentioned earlier.
If you mean he isn't getting enough minutes that is another story but his minutes have been consistent.
The argument I've made, and Hayward is making with regard to Mayo - is that basketball is a game of getting into a rhythm and flow, and some players need more time to get into a flow. You have to look at overall skill set of a guy and determine - is he worth waiting on to get into a flow. I don't think anyone would deny that Todd is far and away the most talented perimeter player this team has had since Day 1 of this season - He's a threat from 3, has good midrange game, and can get to the basket, and is a great FT shooter.
What some fail to realize is, is that if you get 24 minutes in a game, but it comes in 6, 4 minute stints - that isn't nearly as effective use of playing time, as getting 2, 12-minute stretches.
Buzz's crazy substitution patterns for the team this year hurt EVERYBODY..you simply cannot run guys in and out, in and out, in and out and getting any efficiency together...on the offensive or defensive side of the ball.
So, though Mayo has played 24-26 minutes in a lot of games this season, I would surmise that in many of the games he got those minutes playing 4-6 different stints of action.
Some have said Derrick and Jake have been MU's most consistent performers..or at least Derrick...and if you look at it - he is the 1 guy, and Jake a close 2nd, who has gotten consistent, long stretches of minutes...that helps to normalize performance/keep performance relatively consistent...
I cannot remember I game I have seen that has a 12 minute stretch that is uninterrupted. I am not rejecting your theory, just pointing out that with a time out or a tv timeout you will never have a 12 minute stretch of game time that is not stopped for a significant time. I don't understand why breaking for the timeout would be any different than a substitution break. I also don't see where you draw a line. Why not five minute periods, or six? If we see players getting long stretches of playing time without substitutions maybe they are better players, and that accounts for the perceived normalization. I just don't see how you can account for the variables, and relying on player anecdotes that they want to play more seems suspect.
Quote from: connie on February 17, 2014, 12:49:11 PM
I cannot remember I game I have seen that has a 12 minute stretch that is uninterrupted. I am not rejecting your theory, just pointing out that with a time out or a tv timeout you will never have a 12 minute stretch of game time that is not stopped for a significant time. I don't understand why breaking for the timeout would be any different than a substitution break. I also don't see where you draw a line. Why not five minute periods, or six? If we see players getting long stretches of playing time without substitutions maybe they are better players, and that accounts for the perceived normalization. I just don't see how you can account for the variables, and relying on player anecdotes that they want to play more seems suspect.
Of course we'll never see a 12 minute uninterrupted stint of basketball with the TV timeouts every 4 minutes...so wasn't saying in a true literal sense. Just saying that as a player - if you ever play with fear of - "If I make 1 mistake, I'm going to get pulled," it is an awful way to play, and it breeds tightness. Buzz generally has had a very short leash with Mayo during his whole career. Buzz needs to accept that if you have a guy who is going to force action, go at the basket, etc. - which all good teams HAVE to have - you have to live with some turnovers, that the more aggressive style of ball will result in.
The broader point, is that if Mayo and generally any hoops player knows...I'm going to get to play through a few mistakes..it relaxs the player and they play better - as does knowing you will get a long stint of extended run. Timeouts don't necessarily interrupt the flow...as they are a normal part of all basketball games...and they don't play head games with you....as does getting yanked in and out of a lineup at the coaches whims...that's the larger point of being allowed to get into a flow and play long durations..
Quote from: connie on February 17, 2014, 12:49:11 PM
I cannot remember I game I have seen that has a 12 minute stretch that is uninterrupted. I am not rejecting your theory, just pointing out that with a time out or a tv timeout you will never have a 12 minute stretch of game time that is not stopped for a significant time. I don't understand why breaking for the timeout would be any different than a substitution break. I also don't see where you draw a line. Why not five minute periods, or six? If we see players getting long stretches of playing time without substitutions maybe they are better players, and that accounts for the perceived normalization. I just don't see how you can account for the variables, and relying on player anecdotes that they want to play more seems suspect.
Not only that, but Todd has been playing extended stretches since the beginning of the BE season. In every game but SJU, he had at least one "shift" of at least 7:00.
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/marquette/todd-mayo/plus_minus
And in some of the longer stretches, he has been bad. In some of the shorter stretches he has been good. Now in *most* of the longer stretches he has been good. Does that mean that he was good because he played in longer stretches? Or does it mean that he got to play more because he was playing well? (Chicken and egg.)
Quote from: Ners on February 17, 2014, 01:01:57 PM
Of course we'll never see a 12 minute uninterrupted stint of basketball with the TV timeouts every 4 minutes...so wasn't saying in a true literal sense. Just saying that as a player - if you ever play with fear of - "If I make 1 mistake, I'm going to get pulled," it is an awful way to play, and it breeds tightness. Buzz generally has had a very short leash with Mayo during his whole career. Buzz needs to accept that if you have a guy who is going to force action, go at the basket, etc. - which all good teams HAVE to have - you have to live with some turnovers, that the more aggressive style of ball will result in.
I am not sold on the premise that an extended run is the cure for any thing that ails any of our players. I do think the above is a good point.
Quote from: connie on February 17, 2014, 06:37:47 PM
I am not sold on the premise that an extended run is the cure for any thing that ails any of our players. I do think the above is a good point.
But of course, there isn't much evidence to suggest that Buzz operates that way extensively. He lets a lot of players play through mistakes.
Quote from: connie on February 17, 2014, 06:37:47 PM
I am not sold on the premise that an extended run is the cure for any thing that ails any of our players. I do think the above is a good point.
I agree with you...this won't "fix" the issues with every player on the team....a few are truly overmatched right now at this level. But for a guy like Todd, who has a lot of talent and is not overmatched - if he pretty much knows I'm going to get to play a whole half, regardless of what happens...his talent will eventually produce good results, and he and the team will be better off for it - even if there are some mistakes, turnover, missed shots etc., in the run.
Quote from: The Sultan of Serenity on February 17, 2014, 06:58:34 PM
But of course, there isn't much evidence to suggest that Buzz operates that way extensively. He lets a lot of players play through mistakes.
Of course a coach has to allow players to play through a mistake....but Buzz has had a short leash with Mayo historically, and generally with most all of his freshman throughout his tenure...at the end of the day, of course, can't complain...as he's gotten us great results....but to deny that Buzz hasn't had a short leash at times and been impatient with certain players would be false.
Quote from: Ners on February 17, 2014, 07:22:17 PM
Of course a coach has to allow players to play through a mistake....but Buzz has had a short leash with Mayo historically, and generally with most all of his freshman throughout his tenure...at the end of the day, of course, can't complain...as he's gotten us great results....but to deny that Buzz hasn't had a short leash at times and been impatient with certain players would be false.
Buzz had a longer leash with Todd than with any other freshman in his 6 years here. I'm a big fan of Todd's game but his erratic behavior in the classroom and off the court set him back. To Todd's credit, he earned the trust he lost.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 17, 2014, 07:43:34 PM
Buzz had a longer leash with Todd than with any other freshman in his 6 years here. I'm a big fan of Todd's game but his erratic behavior in the classroom and off the court set him back. To Todd's credit, he earned the trust he lost.
I'd have to say Vander had a much longer leash than Todd as a freshman...given that 1) Vander's assault/battery on fellow student occurred before his freshman season started, and 2) Vander REALLY struggled as a freshman...yet Buzz continued to start him for a long time, and gave him quite a few more minutes than his play suggested he'd "earned." I'd read Vander eventually asked for Buzz to stop starting him...as his confidence was eroding...
Quote from: Ners on February 17, 2014, 07:59:50 PM
I'd have to say Vander had a much longer leash than Todd as a freshman...given that 1) Vander's assault/battery on fellow student occurred before his freshman season started, and 2) Vander REALLY struggled as a freshman...yet Buzz continued to start him for a long time, and gave him quite a few more minutes than his play suggested he'd "earned." I'd read Vander eventually asked for Buzz to stop starting him...as his confidence was eroding...
I guess we can quibble around the edges but the fact remains that Buzz's leash grew much shorter for Todd in year 2 when he was academically ineligible for the first semester and had a behavior related suspension in the second. He was also sent home for a summer and his Mom was summoned for for a "what's wrong with Todd and does he want to fix it" meeting. I know you think none of this stuff should matter because he has talent, but that's not how Buzz rolls. And if you really like what Buzz is about you'd get that.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 17, 2014, 08:30:31 PM
I guess we can quibble around the edges but the fact remains that Buzz's leash grew much shorter for Todd in year 2 when he was academically ineligible for the first semester and had a behavior related suspension in the second. He was also sent home for a summer and his Mom was summoned for for a "what's wrong with Todd and does he want to fix it" meeting. I know you think none of this stuff should matter because he has talent, but that's not how Buzz rolls. And if you really like what Buzz is about you'd get that.
Not to mention that Vander's issues were pretty much limited to his first semester on campus - there wasn't a problem with class attendance, practice time, etc.
Again, they aren't comparable.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 17, 2014, 08:30:31 PM
I guess we can quibble around the edges but the fact remains that Buzz's leash grew much shorter for Todd in year 2 when he was academically ineligible for the first semester and had a behavior related suspension in the second. He was also sent home for a summer and his Mom was summoned for for a "what's wrong with Todd and does he want to fix it" meeting. I know you think none of this stuff should matter because he has talent, but that's not how Buzz rolls. And if you really like what Buzz is about you'd get that.
I've never said behavior related issues and conduct shouldn't matter. What my point is, and has been, is that you are going to have Todd active, in uniform, and putting him into games - it does him, and the team a disservice to yank him in and out if he has an early turnover or two, misses a couple of shots. My point all along is that Todd is the most talented perimeter player this team has...and if you are going to have him eligible to play in a game (which of course implies Buzz deems his behavior/conduct worthy of being "playable"), you need to max his minutes and take the shackles off.
Additionally, the consequences of behavior related issues/academic troubles - have been addressed in that Todd's poor performance academically cost him a semester of eligibility (punishment), if conduct was bad and sent home and away from team (as were DJO and Jae), another punishment....and being suspended for the Wisconsin game, and I believe first half of West Virginia game for being late to practice...punishment served.
I agree with the discipline...just don't agree with if you are going to have him eligible to play....having the short leash. The team has looked SIGNIFICANTLY better the last 3 games with Todd getting 30+, and getting to play for a whole entire 2nd half (Seton Hall), and 17 minutes straight against Xavier.