Last night he played 34 minutes, shot 1-6 from three point land, had zero assists, one turnover and three fouls. Meanwhile, Mayo played 27 minutes and JJJ played one minute. Also, I see nothing overly impressive about his defense. After watching this for 24 games, I fail to understand why Jake gets anywhere near the minutes that he does.
I agree.
Jake does usually get good positioning on defense and is good at team defensive concepts. He mostly keeps his man in front of him. And, offensively, he is at least a threat to hit a 3.
Obviously, Buzz trusts him more than the kids, especially in crucial situations, and that is understandable. But to only give a healthy JJJ less than a minute simply doesn't make much sense.
It will be interesting to see who Buzz will be able to trust at 2G next season!
Quote from: MU82 on February 12, 2014, 05:18:35 PM
It will be interesting to see who Buzz will be able to trust at 2G next season!
See: Mayo, Todd.
Quote from: Superfan on February 12, 2014, 05:02:28 PM
Last night he played 34 minutes, shot 1-6 from three point land, had zero assists, one turnover and three fouls. Meanwhile, Mayo played 27 minutes and JJJ played one minute. Also, I see nothing overly impressive about his defense. After watching this for 24 games, I fail to understand why Jake gets anywhere near the minutes that he does.
Yet he was tied for highest +/- (with Derrick) for the game last night. The things Jake does do not show up in the stat sheet but they help our team win.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 12, 2014, 06:05:04 PM
Yet he was tied for highest +/- (with Derrick) for the game last night. The things Jake does do not show up in the stat sheet but they help our team win.
I do like that lineup of 5 we had but don't go overboard. If Jake didn't play yesterday we still win. If mayo jamil or Ox don't we get destroyed.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 12, 2014, 06:05:04 PM
Yet he was tied for highest +/- (with Derrick) for the game last night. The things Jake does do not show up in the stat sheet but they help our team win.
This is one of the reasons +/- is a flawed stat. Jake was playing with the No. 1 unit whenever he was on the floor. Maybe if JJJ had those exact same minutes, he would have had the exact same +/-. Or maybe it would have been even better because JJJ would have scored a few points.
Or maybe not.
We'll never know because the team's No. 1 recruit couldn't even find 3 minutes of playing time while the walk-on got 34 minutes to fire a bunch of misaligned scuds.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on February 12, 2014, 06:25:45 PM
I do like that lineup of 5 we had but don't go overboard. If Jake didn't play yesterday we still win. If mayo jamil or Ox don't we get destroyed.
I'm honestly not sure about that. Without Jake, maybe Oliver goes off for 20 (as he has been prone to do). Without Jake, the Hall defense double and triple teams every time we get in the paint.
Is he our star? Absolutely not. But he does more than he gets credit for
Quote from: MU82 on February 12, 2014, 06:45:13 PM
We'll never know because the team's No. 1 recruit couldn't even find 3 minutes of playing time while the walk-on got 34 minutes to fire a bunch of misaligned scuds.
I'm going to use one of your quotes from the Derrick Dawson argument.
Quote from: MU82he couldn't beat out Derrick Jake in the eyes of the coach who sees both of them for several hours every single day.
Buzz sees both JJJ and Jake in practice every day. Buzz obviously sees something in Jake that he can't get from Trey J. Does Trey J have a higher ceiling? Absolutely. But right now, Jake is earning those minutes over him.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on February 12, 2014, 06:25:45 PM
I do like that lineup of 5 we had but don't go overboard. If Jake didn't play yesterday we still win. If mayo jamil or Ox don't we get destroyed.
I don't see any evidence that JJJ can do what jake does in the team defense. The reason MU has won the last two games is in part because of the clamps they put down on the defensive end. Don't underestimate the role that jake plays in the regard.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 12, 2014, 06:45:24 PM
I'm honestly not sure about that. Without Jake, maybe Oliver goes off for 20 (as he has been prone to do). Without Jake, the Hall defense double and triple teams every time we get in the paint.
Is he our star? Absolutely not. But he does more than he gets credit for
Oliver went off for 5-7 from 3. I highly doubt it was going to get any better than that.
Quote from: The Sultan of Serenity on February 12, 2014, 06:58:33 PM
I don't see any evidence that JJJ can do what jake does in the team defense. The reason MU has won the last two games is in part because of the clamps they put down on the defensive end. Don't underestimate the role that jake plays in the regard.
Not underestimating its just annoying that how far people reach for Jake, Dwil and Chris. Yes, two of them were a part of our best lineup yesterday
Put it gets ridiculous the little praise they get and it's constantly "todd is so inconsistent" "davante is lazy" etc..
When fact is....we would literally be screwed without them and jake like it or not IS replaceable. That's all.
Honestly without jake that would just force Buzz to play Mayo 35 minutes....which he should be playing. With Jake getting Todds usual 23-27ish.
I'm not saying jake is irreplaceable. I think by next year we will forget he was even here. I just think that right now he is part of the most consistent unit buzz pus on the floor and that simply taking him out and putting JJJ in doesn't necessarily mean improvement.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on February 12, 2014, 06:59:00 PM
Oliver went off for 5-7 from 3. I highly doubt it was going to get any better than that.
I'd have to rewatch the game in its entirety to note when Jake was playing D on Oliver. I do know that Jake was D on Oliver at the end of the game when we made our big run and ultimately ended up winning. Jake played the last 9:22 of the game, no points or attempts from Oliver. Could be complete coincidence, but that's what the play-by-play shows.
Quote from: The Sultan of Serenity on February 12, 2014, 07:05:36 PM
I'm not saying jake is irreplaceable. I think by next year we will forget he was even here. I just think that right now he is part of the most consistent unit buzz pus on the floor and that simply taking him out and putting JJJ in doesn't necessarily mean improvement.
yeah I do think he is a key part. I just don't like the constant "little things" clamor. It's almost as annoying as the people who refuse to see any contributions of his.
Like I said though, it wouldn't really be putting JJJ in. Mayo would just be getting full time minutes. Which he should now even with Jake. Still think 27 is too low.
This is a question that we will never know the answer to, but I can't help but wonder how different, and possibly better, this team would be if JJJ got major minutes early in the year, especially against some of the easy teams. I can't help but think that his lack of development is the result, in part, to his lack of game time. Given his credentials coming in here, it just seems like a huge opportunity cost.
Jake is a role player, not a 34 minute a game player. I was shocked to see Jamil come out last night in first half before Jake came out. If Jamil is tired work his time off the court around TV timeouts. While I cannot say a lot of positive about Jake I do not need to bash him either. In right rotation he can be effective, especially if he can make a shot.
Quote from: The Sultan of Serenity on February 12, 2014, 06:58:33 PM
I don't see any evidence that JJJ can do what jake does in the team defense. The reason MU has won the last two games is in part because of the clamps they put down on the defensive end. Don't underestimate the role that jake plays in the regard.
Sultan, look at his stat line. For the love of God, will you look at his stat line.
Same argument--different player. This is getting old.
If JJJ had shown an understanding of all of the defensive help, recover, rotation responsibilities, he would get more time. Jake understands it completely and is always where he is supposed to be. JJJ doesn't. Todd didn't but is getting better. What exactly is the question? If you don't know where you are supposed to be on defense at all times, you don't get big minutes. Jake does. JJJ doesn't yet. Jake completely sells out going for loose balls. JJJ doesn't yet. Simple. I firmly believe that JJJ can beat Jake 1 on 1. I firmly believe he will be very good. Like most frosh, he is struggling with Buzz's defensive expectations. I expect him to be immensely better next year.
Anyone here who knows the players, the game plan and college hoops more than Buzz, raise your hand.
crickets
crickets
Didn't think so....
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 12, 2014, 08:13:24 PM
Anyone here who knows the players, the game plan and college hoops more than Buzz, raise your hand.
crickets
crickets
Didn't think so....
I agree. This thread can be filed away with around 100+ others from this year under: "I thought the team would be better this year, so I'm disappointed in how the team is playing this year, so Buzz must be doing something wrong, I bet I can figure it out." Sure, sure, you can.
Actually, the only problem with Jake Thomas is that Buzz doesn't do enough to shore up his confidence, therefore he doesn't take and make all the three point shots he should.
Like Derrick, Jake is low risk, low reward.
Can we at least keep complaining to a minimum after victories? Maybe some of us can channel our never ending frustrations with Wilson and Thomas into positivity instead of beating a dead horse. For instance, we could be imagining Jake's poster dunk vs. Xavier and Derrick raining a few trey balls.
Quote from: Boone on February 12, 2014, 08:21:22 PM
Like Derrick, Jake is low risk, low reward.
Then how does this team lead the Big East in scoring defense?
Quote from: Jamil_toMU10 on February 12, 2014, 08:26:51 PM
Can we at least keep complaining to a minimum after victories? Maybe some of us can channel our never ending frustrations with Wilson and Thomas into positivity instead of beating a dead horse. For instance, we could be imagining Jake's poster dunk vs. Xavier and Derrick raining a few trey balls.
Jake absolutely rejected a 3pt shot at the end of the SH game. That was a pretty awesome play.
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 12, 2014, 08:32:46 PM
Jake absolutely rejected a 3pt shot at the end of the SH game. That was a pretty awesome play.
It was a very nice play.
Defense first. Jake is usually in proper position/helpside as is Derrick Wilson. The freshmen not so much.
Jake is rarely open, because teams try very hard to keep him covered so he does not hit the three. I am sure part of it is the fact that he is viewed as the only three point threat, so they take him out of the game on offense. What I really like is when Thomas and Mayo are on the floor at the same time. Mayo likes to drive and having Thomas on the floor helps Mayo, because he is pulling a defender away. I will say that I think teams put to much effort into covering Thomas, but as long as they insist on covering him closely he is benefiting players like Mayo by being on the floor. I think if you pay close attention you will see that Mayo is at his best when he is on the floor with Thomas.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on February 12, 2014, 07:09:49 PM
yeah I do think he is a key part. I just don't like the constant "little things" clamor. It's almost as annoying as the people who refuse to see any contributions of his.
Like I said though, it wouldn't really be putting JJJ in. Mayo would just be getting full time minutes. Which he should now even with Jake. Still think 27 is too low.
Yea and Mayo struggled with his shot yesterday too and has been wildly inconsistent all year long.
These arguments are getting old and ridiculous.
It is obvious that Buzz trusts Jake and he must be doing what Buzz wants him to do or HE WOULDN'T BE PLAYING. And now finally Mayo is starting to earn that trust as well. At this point in time there is nothing wrong with any of the minutes that of our players are getting. Buzz has seen them all 10 times over what any of us have seen them and he analyzes film, talks to other coaches, etc., etc. He is playing the players he feels gives him the best chance to win and considering his track record, I will give him the benefit of the doubt.
I am going to guess that a lot of the posters who bashed Lockett's playing time last year are the ones that are bashing Jake and Derrick this year.
Quote from: mufanatic on February 12, 2014, 08:45:47 PM
Yea and Mayo struggled with his shot yesterday too and has been wildly inconsistent all year long.
These arguments are getting old and ridiculous.
It is obvious that Buzz trusts Jake and he must be doing what Buzz wants him to do or HE WOULDN'T BE PLAYING. And now finally Mayo is starting to earn that trust as well. At this point in time there is nothing wrong with any of the minutes that of our players are getting. Buzz has seen them all 10 times over what any of us have seen them and he analyzes film, talks to other coaches, etc., etc. He is playing the players he feels gives him the best chance to win and considering his track record, I will give him the benefit of the doubt.
I am going to guess that a lot of the posters who bashed Lockett's playing time last year are the ones that are bashing Jake and Derrick this year.
Mayo was fantastic yesterday. A couple of shots went down and out but he attacked all game. It was a great game by Mayo so your point really doesn't exist.
Quote from: mufanatic on February 12, 2014, 08:45:47 PM
Yea and Mayo struggled with his shot yesterday too and has been wildly inconsistent all year long.
These arguments are getting old and ridiculous.
It is obvious that Buzz trusts Jake and he must be doing what Buzz wants him to do or HE WOULDN'T BE PLAYING. And now finally Mayo is starting to earn that trust as well. At this point in time there is nothing wrong with any of the minutes that of our players are getting. Buzz has seen them all 10 times over what any of us have seen them and he analyzes film, talks to other coaches, etc., etc. He is playing the players he feels gives him the best chance to win and considering his track record, I will give him the benefit of the doubt.
I am going to guess that a lot of the posters who bashed Lockett's playing time last year are the ones that are bashing Jake and Derrick this year.
I bet that you've hit on something there.
Quote from: mu-rara on February 12, 2014, 07:48:55 PM
Sultan, look at his stat line. For the love of God, will you look at his stat line.
Stat lines really only address one side of the floor so really it isn't all that relevant how one player is doing offensively when the team seems to perform well when he is on the court.
Quote from: mufanatic on February 12, 2014, 08:45:47 PM
Yea and Mayo struggled with his shot yesterday too and has been wildly inconsistent all year long.
These arguments are getting old and ridiculous.
It is obvious that Buzz trusts Jake and he must be doing what Buzz wants him to do or HE WOULDN'T BE PLAYING. And now finally Mayo is starting to earn that trust as well. At this point in time there is nothing wrong with any of the minutes that of our players are getting. Buzz has seen them all 10 times over what any of us have seen them and he analyzes film, talks to other coaches, etc., etc. He is playing the players he feels gives him the best chance to win and considering his track record, I will give him the benefit of the doubt.
I am going to guess that a lot of the posters who bashed Lockett's playing time last year are the ones that are bashing Jake and Derrick this year.
Well said.
Quote from: bilsu on February 12, 2014, 08:44:22 PM
Jake is rarely open, because teams try very hard to keep him covered so he does not hit the three.
I'm down with that many times. But Jake was 1-for-6 from 3-point range yesterday and 3 of the misses were on very open looks. One of 'em was that ugly thing that practically broke the backboard.
One thing I found interesting about Jake Thomas. He is 3 for 23 from three at home against decent competition this year (OSU and BEast home games). Is there such a thing as hom court disadvantage?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 12, 2014, 06:51:10 PM
I'm going to use one of your quotes from the Derrick Dawson argument.
Buzz sees both JJJ and Jake in practice every day. Buzz obviously sees something in Jake that he can't get from Trey J. Does Trey J have a higher ceiling? Absolutely. But right now, Jake is earning those minutes over him.
Big difference: I did not try to claim that JJJ should be starting or even playing as many minutes as Jake. I actually acknowledged that Buzz obviously feels more comfortable with Jake
"and that is understandable." What I also said was:
"The team's No. 1 recruit couldn't even find 3 minutes of playing time while the walk-on got 34 minutes ... "Even if I agree that Jake does everything better than JJJ -- and I don't -- it seems absurd that we can't find a few minutes to play our No. 1 recruit. Especially considering that our starting 2G had 6 pts on 2-for-7 shooting with 0 assists and 0 steals.
I always think Dawson, Burton and Taylor should get at least a few minutes every game, too. Our starters have not proven to be so good that we should be denying any viable PT to the future of the program.
That's all. Ners says Dawson should be starting and playing 30 minutes while Derrick rides the pine. I said something very different about Jake/JJJ. Please don't try to compare the two positions.
Quote from: MU82 on February 12, 2014, 09:55:28 PM
I'm down with that many times. But Jake was 1-for-6 from 3-point range yesterday and 3 of the misses were on very open looks. One of 'em was that ugly thing that practically broke the backboard.
Even Ray Allen goes on slumps (not comparing Jake to Allen!!). But even while he was having a terrible shooting night, his man kept guarding him closely all over the floor. Go ahead and look at the games, as much as they sag off Wilson they always keep a man on Jake. Plus his D is what keeps him on the court.
Quote from: newsdrms on February 12, 2014, 10:05:38 PM
Even Ray Allen goes on slumps (not comparing Jake to Allen!!). But even while he was having a terrible shooting night, his man kept guarding him closely all over the floor. Go ahead and look at the games, as much as they sag off Wilson they always keep a man on Jake. Plus his D is what keeps him on the court.
Is it wrong for a Marquette fan to wish that we had a better 2G? We are a program that is coming off a S16-S16-E8 run and I'd like a shooting guard who shoots better than 34% and averages more than 7 pts and 1 ast in his 27 mpg. That's all.
Quote from: MU82 on February 12, 2014, 10:23:08 PM
Is it wrong for a Marquette fan to wish that we had a better 2G? We are a program that is coming off a S16-S16-E8 run and I'd like a shooting guard who shoots better than 34% and averages more than 7 pts and 1 ast in his 27 mpg. That's all.
Nope. Not at all. I'd personally like one too. But for some reason or another, Buzz doesn't like what the other options do with their time on the court.
How do future recruits look at the lack of playing time our Frosh get? I see a lot of freshmen on other teams getting minutes and developing. It would be nice if ours got some meaningful time too.
Quote from: Superfan on February 12, 2014, 10:39:43 PM
How do future recruits look at the lack of playing time our Frosh get? I see a lot of freshmen on other teams getting minutes and developing. It would be nice if ours got some meaningful time too.
I imagine that Buzz is up front and honest with them when he's recruiting them. If they asked about a current specific player or situation, I'm sure, again, Buzz would be up front and honest with them, or as honest as he could be. Up to the player and the player's "posse" at the point.
Buzz seems to be doing just fine with recruiting. I think that whatever Buzz is saying to them is working. Does it really matter as long as they come here?
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 12, 2014, 11:10:49 PM
I imagine that Buzz is up front and honest with them when he's recruiting them. If they asked about a current specific player or situation, I'm sure, again, Buzz would be up front and honest with them, or as honest as he could be. Up to the player and the player's "posse" at the point.
Buzz seems to be doing just fine with recruiting. I think that whatever Buzz is saying to them is working. Does it really matter as long as they come here?
I agree he is doing fine in getting them here. But there is more to it than that. It is not just a matter of getting them here. Keeping them here 4 years or until they turn pro and having them live up to expectations is important for recruiting as well. In other words, for every Vander there has been an Erik Williams.
Quote from: BenCat12 on February 12, 2014, 11:14:15 PM
In other words, for every Vander there has been an Erik Williams.
If we have one Vander for every E Will....that would make us the most successful program of all time.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on February 12, 2014, 08:53:38 PM
Mayo was fantastic yesterday. A couple of shots went down and out but he attacked all game. It was a great game by Mayo so your point really doesn't exist.
THANK YOU!! Your response made my point.
Its not just about points or stats but how they contribute in a team effort. Mayo did play well and Thomas did his job even if his shot wasn't falling down. To call out Thomas because he couldn't knock down his shots is ridiculous. Thomas plays to the game plan and creates better spacing on the offensive end for his team. That is why Buzz plays him.
Jake does one thing none of you have mentioned.
He keeps the other team in man to man defense.
Our offense against zone sucks. We need to play against man. Notice that as soon as teams switch to zone, he gets a look and makes a shot, and it's back to man.
Plus he plays good D.
My criticism? I think he needs to drive more. It will open up his shot a bit.
Quote from: MU82 on February 12, 2014, 10:23:08 PM
Is it wrong for a Marquette fan to wish that we had a better 2G? We are a program that is coming off a S16-S16-E8 run and I'd like a shooting guard who shoots better than 34% and averages more than 7 pts and 1 ast in his 27 mpg. That's all.
I completely agree with this statement. However perhaps Buzz feels that the guy you reference above is his best option available at this point in time.
Got to the Pru the other night and kind of made it a point to watch Jake. He played solid D and was totally with the team concept on D. He is really unable to create his own shot and is a little slow getting his shot off - what looks like it will be pretty much uncontested often becomes a shot with a hand up there and the results were not pretty the other night. Driving is not his strong point, either. Appreciate what he's done for MU but am looking forward to next year at the 2 spot. Buzz's track record indicates that it will likely be Todd's job, at least to start.
Quote from: The Sultan of Serenity on February 12, 2014, 07:05:36 PM
I'm not saying jake is irreplaceable. I think by next year we will forget he was even here. I just think that right now he is part of the most consistent unit buzz pus on the floor and that simply taking him out and putting JJJ in doesn't necessarily mean improvement.
Yeah Sultan, Jake consistently adds to the consistent unit by consistently launching threes that brick. He has about three shots this year that have not been threes. I agree with Hayward above that the accolades thrown out there for guys like Jake and Juan are why out of proportion to what they contribute--the looking for the silver lining syndrome. I like both Jake and Juan--they seem like good kids and hustle which are some of the qualities we want of MU players. You go out of your way to praise these guys--a good thing but then you and some others also go in reverse to dump on Gardner and Mayo--don't like their attitude, or demeanor or lazy, etc.--which doesn't make sense. Yes, I have jumped on Mayo also--he is the height of inconsistency on this team--and IMO hogs the ball too much, but he has stepped up big in a number of games for us, as has Gardner. Without those two, we would not be 14-10, we would be about 9-15.
Now really, the bottom line is, Buzz recruited all these guys, and if guys like Juan and Jake are playing over guys like JJJ and Burton, because they are not ready--that is on Buzz--for not having those other guys ready--and for not further developing Juan and Jake. Hell, Jake came in with a big time rep of being a stud three point shooter, and Juan was about a top 70 recruit. And now they have been with Buzz for three or 4 years, and are about the same as when they arrived. I do not hate any of these guys, just feel like there are some developmental issues with some of our players that Buzz has brought in. Is it all Buzz's fault--No! Asst. Coaches and probably some analysis errors, and other factors. The problem is this years team seems to be much more exposed for the weaknesses than prior teams.
willie...I don't go out of my way to praise guys like Jake and Juan. I defend how and why they are being used. I agree that we need better production out of both positions if we are to be a better team however.
And as for Todd and Davante, I said that both should start weeks ago....along with Jamil, Derrick and Jake. (And look at the line up that has been producing late in both games. Yeah I know...blind squirrel and all that.)
I really wish JJJ played better defense so we could see more of him. But right now he is nowhere near as good as Jake as a defender and he is not going to earn minutes on his offense alone. He'll get it eventually.
By the way, the "Buzz sees them in practice every day and knows more about basketball than you" might be true but it's also the dumbest and laziest argument for justifying his coaching moves. Just because it's his job it doesn't mean he can't be questioned.
It's lazy because it is the trump card that can't be topped. IMO, as recounted in the recent Paint Touches post, Buzz has struggled to figure out this team. He hasn't gotten consistent performances from his best players. He hasn't gotten consistent performances from his freshmen. But he DOES see them every day and he DOES know more about hoops than anybody here.
Quote from: The Sultan of Serenity on February 13, 2014, 09:12:54 AM
willie...I don't go out of my way to praise guys like Jake and Juan. I defend how and why they are being used. I agree that we need better production out of both positions if we are to be a better team however.
And as for Todd and Davante, I said that both should start weeks ago....along with Jamil, Derrick and Jake. (And look at the line up that has been producing late in both games. Yeah I know...blind squirrel and all that.)
Do you recall your staunch position when Jake transferred to MU saying he would NEVER play any meaningful minutes? Regardless of if he was good enough to get a D1 scholarship at a low major...he would never sniff the court at MU?
Over the last two games the guard line of Derrick/Jake/Todd has finally started to emerge into an effective force. Do all have flaws? Of course. But our guard play the last week has been the best it has been all year. Better late than never, I suppose. I hope that trend continues and if that means they play 30 minutes together on the floor, so be it.
Quote from: Ners on February 13, 2014, 09:56:59 AM
Do you recall your staunch position when Jake transferred to MU saying he would NEVER play any meaningful minutes? Regardless of if he was good enough to get a D1 scholarship at a low major...he would never sniff the court at MU?
Ners, I guess Sultan has the ability to change his mind and admit when his original evaluation might have been just a bit off. Refreshing.
Quote from: jsglow on February 13, 2014, 10:01:47 AM
Ners, I guess Sultan has the ability to change his mind and admit when his original evaluation might have been just a bit off. Refreshing.
+1. Was trying to come up with a way to say the same thing.
Quote from: The Sultan of Serenity on February 12, 2014, 09:33:35 PM
Stat lines really only address one side of the floor so really it isn't all that relevant how one player is doing offensively when the team seems to perform well when he is on the court.
I agree, wholeheartedly.
I thought you of ALL people would detect sarcasm without teal. I mean, you're a Sultan. jk.
Quote from: jsglow on February 13, 2014, 10:01:47 AM
Ners, I guess Sultan has the ability to change his mind and admit when his original evaluation might have been just a bit off. Refreshing.
LOL - Not historically. But, yes, sorry...I stand by my conviction that Dawson would have been a better option for this team at PG had he been given 20 minutes a game from the start of the season...
Nothing in Derrick's numbers show any improvement from the nonconference portion of the season to the conference season. And the team's record is pretty poor. People are all excited again because we beat a pretty poor Seton Hall team on the road...
And yes, Dawson just had a clunker of a game against Seton Hall - truly his 1 absolute bomb of a game - yet his turnover per 40 minutes compared to Derrick is just .5 more turnovers per 40. Dawson at least forces a defense to defend him everywhere on the floor....by virtue of that alone...it adds value for all the other guys on the floor..
We'll see how it plays out...I suspect we'll be in the NIT - and don't think any here would have thought this would be an NIT team...not with our best post player in 30 years, and a wing in Jamil who Buzz has said is the most talented of any of the guys who have come through the program...
Quote from: The Sultan of Serenity on February 12, 2014, 06:58:33 PM
I don't see any evidence that JJJ can do what jake does in the team defense. The reason MU has won the last two games is in part because of the clamps they put down on the defensive end. Don't underestimate the role that jake plays in the regard.
Seton Hall shot an eFG% of 64% for the game. That was the worst defensive eFG% allowed by MU all season.
MU won against SHU because they forced them into a TORate of 26% and an OR% of 13%. Purely from the box score, Jake had two defensive rebounds against SHU. He had no steals, but did have one block. The box score says his contribution defensively was worse than the team average.
However, I fully acknowledge that things don't get captured in the box score. If you or anyone else could make a compelling argument that Thomas played a role outside the box score in the other SHU turnovers or the MU defensive rebounds, I'd welcome that dialogue.
Quote from: Ners on February 13, 2014, 10:14:03 AM
And yes, Dawson just had a clunker of a game against Seton Hall - truly his 1 absolute bomb of a game - yet his turnover per 40 minutes compared to Derrick is just .5 more turnovers per 40. Dawson at least forces a defense to defend him everywhere on the floor....by virtue of that alone...it adds value for all the other guys on the floor..
We'll see how it plays out...I suspect we'll be in the NIT - and don't think any here would have thought this would be an NIT team...not with our best post player in 30 years, and a wing in Jamil who Buzz has said is the most talented of any of the guys who have come through the program...
Agree on both points. I think Dawson becomes a very solid player over his 4 years and I like his contribution to date. I also think NIT might end up our fate but as they said in Monty Python..... "I'm not dead yet!"
Quote from: jsglow on February 13, 2014, 10:01:47 AM
Ners, I guess Sultan has the ability to change his mind and admit when his original evaluation might have been just a bit off. Refreshing.
Of course Vander had to leave early for it to happen, but yeah I was wrong that he wouldn't play meaningful minutes.
Quote from: Henry Sugar on February 13, 2014, 10:19:42 AM
Seton Hall shot an eFG% of 64% for the game. That was the worst defensive eFG% allowed by MU all season.
MU won against SHU because they forced them into a TORate of 26% and an OR% of 13%. Purely from the box score, Jake had two defensive rebounds against SHU. He had no steals, but did have one block. The box score says his contribution defensively was worse than the team average.
However, I fully acknowledge that things don't get captured in the box score. If you or anyone else could make a compelling argument that Thomas played a role outside the box score in the other SHU turnovers or the MU defensive rebounds, I'd welcome that dialogue.
I think it was their defensive effort over the last 10 minutes of the game that was the difference. I agree that their overall FG defense was poor for a good portion of that game. MU was able to keep up because of OR more than anything...I would guess at least.
Quote from: The Sultan of Serenity on February 13, 2014, 09:12:54 AM
willie...I don't go out of my way to praise guys like Jake and Juan. I defend how and why they are being used. I agree that we need better production out of both positions if we are to be a better team however.
And as for Todd and Davante, I said that both should start weeks ago....along with Jamil, Derrick and Jake. (And look at the line up that has been producing late in both games. Yeah I know...blind squirrel and all that.)
OK. If we keep winning with the current rotation, that's all good, That being said, Juan should only get about 10 minutes per game, and Mayo should get some of Jake's minutes, unless the bad Mayo shows up.
Quote from: jsglow on February 13, 2014, 09:58:52 AM
Over the last two games the guard line of Derrick/Jake/Todd has finally started to emerge into an effective force.
Hmmm.
Wilt was a force. Jordan and Pippen emerged as a force. The 80s Lakers emerged as a force. LeBron, Wade and Bosh have emerged as a force.
Not that I have a little higher standards of what constitutes a "force" or anything, but I'm pretty sure it requires more than three players averaging a combined 21.2 points on 40% shooting for a team that just had its first two-game winning streak in nearly two months.
I'm hopeful, yes, but let's talk again after the Xavier and Creighton games.
Quote from: MU82 on February 13, 2014, 12:30:11 PM
Hmmm.
Wilt was a force. Jordan and Pippen emerged as a force. The 80s Lakers emerged as a force. LeBron, Wade and Bosh have emerged as a force.
Not that I have a little higher standards of what constitutes a "force" or anything, but I'm pretty sure it requires more than three players averaging a combined 21.2 points on 40% shooting for a team that just had its first two-game winning streak in nearly two months.
I'm hopeful, yes, but let's talk again after the Xavier and Creighton games.
Wow, I agree with MU82. And if you take mayo out of that mix, you have a guard tandem averaging about 12 points per game. Like the fact we have won two in a row, but let's wait to see what happens in the next two--both must wins.
Quote from: The Sultan of Serenity on February 13, 2014, 10:45:13 AM
Of course Vander had to leave early for it to happen, but yeah I was wrong that he wouldn't play meaningful minutes.
Well in a respectful tip of the cap to you..and BrewCity1977 - you guys were Vander supporters all along and I was really, really skeptical...and didn't see him blossoming into a good player...his jump his junior year completely shocked me. Feel otherwise I've been pretty accurate on the ability/talent/potential of other MU players since Buzz took over..ironically...I felt Jake would be a contributor/get playing time regardless of Vander's status when Jake transferred to MU...but certainly didn't see Jake being the 2nd leading minute getter on the team this year...or when I made comments he'd get PT when he transferred to MU - just thought he'd get spot minutes like what we saw last year..
Quote from: The Sultan of Serenity on February 13, 2014, 10:45:13 AM
Of course Vander had to leave early for it to happen, but yeah I was wrong that he wouldn't play meaningful minutes.
Jake was playing a ton early last season, but shot his way onto the bench.
Quote from: Ners on February 13, 2014, 02:25:16 PM
Well in a respectful tip of the cap to you..and BrewCity1977 - you guys were Vander supporters all along and I was really, really skeptical...and didn't see him blossoming into a good player...his jump his junior year completely shocked me. Feel otherwise I've been pretty accurate on the ability/talent/potential of other MU players since Buzz took over..ironically...I felt Jake would be a contributor/get playing time regardless of Vander's status when Jake transferred to MU...but certainly didn't see Jake being the 2nd leading minute getter on the team this year...or when I made comments he'd get PT when he transferred to MU - just thought he'd get spot minutes like what we saw last year..
To call what Jake got during the BE season and NCAA tourney "spot minutes" would be an insult to spot minutes.
A person of Jake's skill level on an outstanding team should play exactly as he did from Jan. 1 on last season. Of course, we are not an outstanding team this season.
Quote from: MU82 on February 13, 2014, 02:49:40 PM
To call what Jake got during the BE season and NCAA tourney "spot minutes" would be an insult to spot minutes.
A person of Jake's skill level on an outstanding team should play exactly as he did from Jan. 1 on last season. Of course, we are not an outstanding team this season.
Good point...I actually thought the same as I wrote that statement...just didn't know how to express it otherwise...perhaps very situational/situation specific minutes..
Quote from: Ners on February 13, 2014, 05:56:07 PM
Good point...I actually thought the same as I wrote that statement...just didn't know how to express it otherwise...perhaps very situational/situation specific minutes..
10 Big East games: no minutes at all. The other 8 BE games: 23 minutes total.
VERRRRRRY situational!
Jake seems like a nice young man and he has surprised me some with the few contributions he has made this season. But he would get real minutes for very few outstanding teams, just as he couldn't get minutes on an outstanding team last year.