If a Judge has to tell you who won, it is not a sport, it is an exhibition.
I'm more convinced of this after watching Jamie Anderson win the Gold Medal is Snowboarding Slope Style. (FYI - this is a "sport" that did not exist a few years ago and is new to the Olympics this year.) It could be the 31st best run or the gold medal winning run and it all looks the same.
And it is not only me, but the announcers and competitors, who are supposed to know what is going on, are just as surprised judging from their reactions. They have no idea what they are looking at and have to wait for a judge to tell them what the score is and they act shocked when they get the results, either way.
So, any sport that needs a judge to tell us who won, I question if it is a sport. This includes Gymnastics, figure skating, all "snow events" that are not judged by a clock. They are exhibitions.
Why am I wrong for thinking this?
Agree completely with your methodology. I usually call them "activities" rather than exhibitions, but all the same. If there isn't a natural way of keeping score, it's not a sport to me. Fastest, furthest, longest, highest, most points, whatever it may be.
Agree in general, but I do think boxing is a sport even if they have to go to the judges' cards for a decision.
I can't stand extreme sports, X game type sports, etc. But if you ask me, things like snowboarding are more of a sport than sitting in a car and driving in a circle for a few hours. One is "judged," the other is "timed." It takes a better athlete to be able to ride down a hill on a snowboard and go off large ramps to do tricks in the air and land it than it does to sit in a seat for a couple of hours.
I disagree. Its a sport, takes a hell of a lot of athletic skill to compete in. I mean, technically speaking you have judgment calls in basketball, football and baseball too. Im a competitive bowler and always try to defend that bowling is a sport but even I would say snowboarding is more of a sport then bowling.
Completely agree with the OP. These new "sports" really dilute the true sports.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on February 10, 2014, 10:03:40 AM
Completely agree with the OP. These new "sports" really dilute the true sports.
See though, what is a "true sport" you cant really qualify or quantify what really makes a sport just like you cant quantify/qualify what makes an actual science. Everybody has their opinion on the matter but its not something you can really have a specific set of terms for.
Quote from: esard2011 on February 10, 2014, 10:01:18 AM
I disagree. Its a sport, takes a hell of a lot of athletic skill to compete in. I mean, technically speaking you have judgment calls in basketball, football and baseball too. Im a competitive bowler and always try to defend that bowling is a sport but even I would say snowboarding is more of a sport then bowling.
Bowling is a sport of skill. It has an objective measure, who knocks down the most pins. You do not need a French and Russian judge to tell you who won and when they do, leave you bewildered about their decision.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on February 10, 2014, 10:03:40 AM
Completely agree with the OP. These new "sports" really dilute the true sports.
Watching last night, I thought the slopestyle event was 100 times more entertaining than the traditional ski jumping.
Again, I don't know why we as a society have to have these discussions about what exactly is, and isn't, a sport.
Quote from: Heisenberg on February 10, 2014, 10:13:14 AM
Bowling is a sport of skill. It has an objective measure, who knocks down the most pins. You do not need a French and Russian judge to tell you who won and when they do, leave you bewildered about their decision.
I will agree with you about the French judge. They always make some head scratching decisions. The worst display of judging though that I have ever seen is any olympic style boxing match. While other sports there are certain point deductions that they take away for certain things olympic boxing has never made sense.
Quote from: esard2011 on February 10, 2014, 10:17:16 AM
I will agree with you about the French judge. They always make some head scratching decisions. The worst display of judging though that I have ever seen is any olympic style boxing match. While other sports there are certain point deductions that they take away for certain things olympic boxing has never made sense.
Is Jim Burr French?
As a boxer I'm offended by the black and white idea of judges or not judges to decide what is a sport as that is certainly not an exhibition. I think it's a sport if you are able to test your physical limits when competing. For this reason something like bowling is not a sport it's a game, same with many of the x games sports, as they are designed for adrenaline tests not pushing you to your physical limits.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on February 10, 2014, 12:05:11 PM
As a boxer I'm offended by the black and white idea of judges or not judges to decide what is a sport as that is certainly not an exhibition. I think it's a sport if you are able to test your physical limits when competing. For this reason something like bowling is not a sport it's a game, same with many of the x games sports, as they are designed for adrenaline tests not pushing you to your physical limits.
Is Ballet a sport? They also test their physical limits. How about Opera? They test the physical limits of the human voice.
Would you be in favor or countries sending teams to perform Swan Lake or Le Boehme and having Judges declare a winner and giving them Olympic medals?
Quote from: Heisenberg on February 10, 2014, 12:26:21 PM
Is Ballet a sport? They also test their physical limits. How about Opera? They test the physical limits of the human voice.
Would you be in favor or countries sending teams to perform Swan Lake or Le Boehme and having Judges declare a winner and giving them Olympic medals?
So, to be clear, you think boxing is not a sport because the outcome (when there is no knock out) is determined by judges? Tell Ali and Frazier that their 15 rounder in the Garden that resulted in a broken jaw for Muhammed and a hospital stay for Joe was an "exhibition", not a sport. That's crazy.
Remember folks, they are the Olympic GAMES, not the Olympic sports.
Its sort of a moot conversation.
What do you people think about a point of view that one of my friends has? If you play defense it is a sport. If you don't have to play defense it is an activity/game.
Quote from: SaintPaulWarrior on February 10, 2014, 12:50:41 PM
What do you people think about a point of view that one of my friends has? If you play defense it is a sport. If you don't have to play defense it is an activity/game.
Then I guess the Bears aren't playing sports.
Quote from: SaintPaulWarrior on February 10, 2014, 12:50:41 PM
What do you people think about a point of view that one of my friends has? If you play defense it is a sport. If you don't have to play defense it is an activity/game.
Dumb.
Quote from: SaintPaulWarrior on February 10, 2014, 12:50:41 PM
What do you people think about a point of view that one of my friends has? If you play defense it is a sport. If you don't have to play defense it is an activity/game.
So, no Track and Field events are sports?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on February 10, 2014, 12:55:41 PM
So, no Track and Field events are sports?
Yeah, wouldn't want to be on "D" in the javelin toss.
Quote from: SaintPaulWarrior on February 10, 2014, 12:50:41 PM
What do you people think about a point of view that one of my friends has? If you play defense it is a sport. If you don't have to play defense it is an activity/game.
"That one of my friends has." Classic.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on February 10, 2014, 12:05:11 PM
As a boxer I'm offended by the black and white idea of judges or not judges to decide what is a sport as that is certainly not an exhibition. I think it's a sport if you are able to test your physical limits when competing. For this reason something like bowling is not a sport it's a game, same with many of the x games sports, as they are designed for adrenaline tests not pushing you to your physical limits.
Bowl 12 games in a day and tell me it doesnt test physical limits. Just to clarify I never said boxing wasnt a sport, I agree it is and its a sport I would never ever attempt. I was just complaining about the Olympic boxing judging. Never made sense to me.
What is "defense"? You can play "defensively" without playing d (no m.s.)
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 10, 2014, 12:36:20 PM
So, to be clear, you think boxing is not a sport because the outcome (when there is no knock out) is determined by judges? Tell Ali and Frazier that their 15 rounder in the Garden that resulted in a broken jaw for Muhammed and a hospital stay for Joe was an "exhibition", not a sport. That's crazy.
So breaking one's jaw makes it a sport? If a ballet dancer blows out a knee, does that make you think ballet dancing is a sport?
--------------------
Saying slope-style snowboarding or gymnastics is not a sport should not be confused with saying the participants of those sports/exhibitions do not possess amazing athletic abilities. They are amazing athletes but so are ballet dancers. But as their sports are constituted, they are not really sports. They are exhibitions where a winner is (arbitrarily?) decide by a panel of judges and not an objective measure like a clock, scoreboard or tape measure.
Boxing was more a sport 100 years ago when a "round" was a knockdown and you had 1 minute to recover. Matches would go 80 or 100 rounds until someone could not answer the bell. Today it is an exhibition to see who can land the first decent punch so the referee can stop the fight.
So, yes boxing is a borderline sport and getting closer and closer to professional wrestling everyday. At least professional wrestling admits they are an exhibition and not a sport.
Quote from: wadesworld on February 10, 2014, 01:01:58 PM
"That one of my friends has." Classic.
I do argue with her/wife a lot over this point of view. I am currently watching curling right now. They are sort of playing defense.
Quote from: Heisenberg on February 10, 2014, 08:59:20 AM
If a Judge has to tell you who won, it is not a sport, it is an exhibition.
I'm more convinced of this after watching Jamie Anderson win the Gold Medal is Snowboarding Slope Style. (FYI - this is a "sport" that did not exist a few years ago and is new to the Olympics this year.) It could be the 31st best run or the gold medal winning run and it all looks the same.
So your inability to judge the techniques employed and skills displayed are what determines what is and isn't a sport.
It's a silly argument, regardless.
If you want to think that auto racing, darts and golf are more legitimately "sports" than boxing and figure skating, because it's easier for you to tell who won, have at it.
Quote from: Heisenberg on February 10, 2014, 12:26:21 PM
Is Ballet a sport? They also test their physical limits. How about Opera? They test the physical limits of the human voice.
Would you be in favor or countries sending teams to perform Swan Lake or Le Boehme and having Judges declare a winner and giving them Olympic medals?
I've never seen a ballet match, or an opera tournament ... though they sound quite fascinating.
I would suggest that
competition is an inherent part of the equation, since the Olympics Games are, by defintion, competitions.
A large part of baseball involves judgment by officials (balls/strikes, fair/foul/ out/safe). Does that make it less of a sport?
Quote from: Pakuni on February 10, 2014, 01:42:04 PM
A large part of baseball involves judgment by officials (balls/strikes, fair/foul/ out/safe). Does that make it less of a sport?
Two umpires could see the same pitch, one could call it a ball and the other a strike. I'll give you that one. However, fair/foul and out/safe are black and white calls. If a ball lands 6" fair but the umpire didn't like the batter's technique, he's not going to call it foul.
There are judgment calls made throughout nearly all sporting events but the outcome isn't decided simply by people watching the players and then making a judgment on who won and who lost.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on February 10, 2014, 10:03:40 AM
Completely agree with the OP. These new "sports" really dilute the true sports.
That's what the gander pulling fans said when baseball came along.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on February 10, 2014, 01:46:05 PM
There are judgment calls made throughout nearly all sporting events but the outcome isn't decided simply by people watching the players and then making a judgment on who won and who lost.
1. I think the outcome of "sports" is far more dependent on judgment calls than you care to admit. An entire basketball game can be turned on a single call. Ask Tim Donaghy how judging can influence the result of an NBA game.
2. When it's done correctly and honestly, judging isn't just "simply watching and deciding who wins." In fact, it's never just simply watching and deciding who wins.
Quote from: Pakuni on February 10, 2014, 01:38:37 PM
So your inability to judge the techniques employed and skills displayed are what determines what is and isn't a sport.
It's a silly argument, regardless.
If you want to think that auto racing, darts and golf are more legitimately "sports" than boxing and figure skating, because it's easier for you to tell who won, have at it.
You conveniently left off the next paragraph of my original comment.
And it is not only me, but the announcers and competitors, who are supposed to know what is going on, are just as surprised judging from their reactions. They have no idea what they are looking at and have to wait for a judge to tell them what the score is and they act shocked when they get the results, either way. Quote from: Pakuni on February 10, 2014, 01:42:04 PM
I've never seen a ballet match, or an opera tournament ... though they sound quite fascinating.
I would suggest that competition is an inherent part of the equation, since the Olympics Games are, by defintion, competitions.
My oldest daughter is an Opera singer and has competed in Opera Tournaments. UWM actually hosts one every year.
Do we need to add "Pakuni awareness" to the definition of a sport?
-----------------
Now before you twist what I'm trying to do let me try it this way... Ballroom dancing is an Olympic sport. So why not Opera or Ballet? I'm trying to ask what is the difference?
Explain the difference between figure skating and ballet. Why is one sport and the other not?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on February 10, 2014, 01:46:05 PM
Two umpires could see the same pitch, one could call it a ball and the other a strike. I'll give you that one. However, fair/foul and out/safe are black and white calls. If a ball lands 6" fair but the umpire didn't like the batter's technique, he's not going to call it foul.
There are judgment calls made throughout nearly all sporting events but the outcome isn't decided simply by people watching the players and then making a judgment on who won and who lost.
This!
Having referees/umpires to enforce the rules is not the same as having judges decide who won. Huge difference.
Chess and Checkers....Hungry Hungry Hippo....
Quote from: Pakuni on February 10, 2014, 02:00:53 PM
1. I think the outcome of "sports" is far more dependent on judgment calls than you care to admit. An entire basketball game can be turned on a single call. Ask Tim Donaghy how judging can influence the result of an NBA game.
2. When it's done correctly and honestly, judging isn't just "simply watching and deciding who wins." In fact, it's never just simply watching and deciding who wins.
Donaghy didn't affect the outcome of games. He affected the over/under.
Quote from: Heisenberg on February 10, 2014, 01:11:57 PM
So breaking one's jaw makes it a sport? If a ballet dancer blows out a knee, does that make you think ballet dancing is a sport?
--------------------
Saying slope-style snowboarding or gymnastics is not a sport should not be confused with saying the participants of those sports/exhibitions do not possess amazing athletic abilities. They are amazing athletes but so are ballet dancers. But as their sports are constituted, they are not really sports. They are exhibitions where a winner is (arbitrarily?) decide by a panel of judges and not an objective measure like a clock, scoreboard or tape measure.
Boxing was more a sport 100 years ago when a "round" was a knockdown and you had 1 minute to recover. Matches would go 80 or 100 rounds until someone could not answer the bell. Today it is an exhibition to see who can land the first decent punch so the referee can stop the fight.
So, yes boxing is a borderline sport and getting closer and closer to professional wrestling everyday. At least professional wrestling admits they are an exhibition and not a sport.
Spoken like a guy who has a beer gut and has never taken a punch in his life let alone trained for a fight before. But I'll keep it in mind that next year for my professional debut I'm training 3 times a day and eating a restricted diet for something that is essentially acting and won't actually hurt because it's just like professional wrestling. Hey maybe I can just take a bunch of steroids and make it look like it hurts, I should probably let my opponent know that in advanced though. Or maybe you want to make your professional boxing debut and let me know how it goes?
Quote from: Heisenberg on February 10, 2014, 12:26:21 PM
Is Ballet a sport? They also test their physical limits. How about Opera? They test the physical limits of the human voice.
Would you be in favor or countries sending teams to perform Swan Lake or Le Boehme and having Judges declare a winner and giving them Olympic medals?
Ballet is a dance opera is singing. When I say physical limits I mean running as fast as you can, taking a hit (not necessarily a punch) and being able to get up, having to think of a defensive strategy (judging by your opinion of boxing you wouldn't recognize one if your life depended on it), etc. Not worrying about a broken toe or tearing your vocal chords.
I'd like to participate in this thread, but Curling is on right now and the athletic prowess the sweepers are showing is exquisite.
Quote from: esard2011 on February 10, 2014, 01:03:18 PM
Bowl 12 games in a day and tell me it doesnt test physical limits. Just to clarify I never said boxing wasnt a sport, I agree it is and its a sport I would never ever attempt. I was just complaining about the Olympic boxing judging. Never made sense to me.
Haha I do suppose I haven't played that many in a row. But how long does it take to test your physical limits in bowling vs a sport like tennis even is more of what I was getting at. I know olympic scoring is tough to explain and it's next to impossible for you to get if you've never boxed competitively.
I've been saying this for years... though I've used "athletic competition" to distinguish "sports" from sports. My standard is a bit different, though the concept is the same: A sport must be an athletic competition whose winner can be objectively determined. That doesn't mean that you have to win objectively or even fairly, for that matter. Boxing is a sport because you can objectively win by knocking the other guy out; as an example, if any one of us went up against Mike Tyson and paid off all the judges and referee, every one of us (except perhaps Bagpiper) is still going to lose that match.
However....
A more primitive way to distinguish between sports and non-sports is whether beer or pot is more likely to be consumed while competing or will make the game more interesting for spectators:
Beer consumed by spectators: Football, Baseball, Basketball, etc.
Beer consumed by competitors: Bowling, Curling, Midget Tossing = SPORTS
Pot consumed by competitors: Snowboarding, Slopestyle, Drum Circles, etc.
Pot consumed by spectators: Figure Skating, Gymnastics, Diving, Poker = NOT A SPORT
The only exception to this rule is pole vaulting, which is indeed a sport despite the fact that the highest competitor typically wins.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 10, 2014, 03:19:31 PM
I'd like to participate in this thread, but Curling is on right now and the athletic prowess the sweepers are showing is exquisite.
I actually laughed at a post by Chicos!
Quote from: Benny B on February 10, 2014, 03:46:09 PM
I've been saying this for years... though I've used "athletic competition" to distinguish "sports" from sports. My standard is a bit different, though the concept is the same: A sport must be an athletic competition whose winner can be objectively determined. That doesn't mean that you have to win objectively or even fairly, for that matter. Boxing is a sport because you can objectively win by knocking the other guy out; as an example, if any one of us went up against Mike Tyson and paid off all the judges and referee, every one of us (except perhaps Bagpiper) is still going to lose that match.
However....
A more primitive way to distinguish between sports and non-sports is whether beer or pot is more likely to be consumed while competing or will make the game more interesting for spectators:
Beer consumed by spectators: Football, Baseball, Basketball, etc.
Beer consumed by competitors: Bowling, Curling, Midget Tossing = SPORTS
Pot consumed by competitors: Snowboarding, Slopestyle, Drum Circles, etc. Basketball, Football
Pot consumed by spectators: Figure Skating, Gymnastics, Diving, Poker = NOT A SPORT
The only exception to this rule is pole vaulting, which is indeed a sport despite the fact that the highest competitor typically wins.
FTFY
Quote from: Heisenberg on February 10, 2014, 02:10:02 PM
My oldest daughter is an Opera singer and has competed in Opera Tournaments. UWM actually hosts one every year.
For kids, right?
I wasn't speaking of scholastic activities here/].
Quote
Now before you twist what I'm trying to do let me try it this way... Ballroom dancing is an Olympic sport. So why not Opera or Ballet? I'm trying to ask what is the difference?
Explain the difference between figure skating and ballet. Why is one sport and the other not?
Well, one difference would be that ballroom dancing
isn't an Olympic sport (though there's been an unsuccessful push to make it one) and figure skating is an Olympic sport.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on February 10, 2014, 03:15:40 PM
Spoken like a guy who has a beer gut and has never taken a punch in his life let alone trained for a fight before. But I'll keep it in mind that next year for my professional debut I'm training 3 times a day and eating a restricted diet for something that is essentially acting and won't actually hurt because it's just like professional wrestling. Hey maybe I can just take a bunch of steroids and make it look like it hurts, I should probably let my opponent know that in advanced though. Or maybe you want to make your professional boxing debut and let me know how it goes?
You're again mistaking athletes with definition of sports. Boxers are incredible athletes but that has no bearing on the current makeup of professional boxing and weather it is a sport or exhibition. Figure skaters and gymnasts are also incredible athletes but the way they compete is not a sport either.
Amateur boxing is a little more objective. Thy have a scoring system for punches landed. That makes it more of a sport.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on February 10, 2014, 03:18:34 PM
Ballet is a dance opera is singing. When I say physical limits I mean running as fast as you can, taking a hit (not necessarily a punch) and being able to get up, having to think of a defensive strategy (judging by your opinion of boxing you wouldn't recognize one if your life depended on it), etc. Not worrying about a broken toe or tearing your vocal chords.
What is the defensive strategy in a 100 meter race? The high jump? 50 meter freestyle? Clean and Jerk weightlifting? So, these are not a sports either?
Again, separate athletes with the rules by which they compete. Sports have objective outcomes that do not require a judge to tell us who won. This is different than referees that make sure the rules are followed.
Quote from: Heisenberg on February 10, 2014, 05:58:52 PM
What is the defensive strategy in a 100 meter race? The high jump? 50 meter freestyle? Clean and Jerk weightlifting? So, these are not a sports either?
Again, separate athletes with the rules by which they compete. Sports have objective outcomes that do not require a judge to tell us who won. This is different than referees that make sure the rules are followed.
Weightlifting is not a sport it's an athletic competition. Sport though I do not agree. Regarding the others, there's always exceptions to the rule. Personally i believe the majority of those are athletic competitions not sports.
Quote from: Heisenberg on February 10, 2014, 05:54:17 PM
You're again mistaking athletes with definition of sports. Boxers are incredible athletes but that has no bearing on the current makeup of professional boxing and weather it is a sport or exhibition. Figure skaters and gymnasts are also incredible athletes but the way they compete is not a sport either.
Amateur boxing is a little more objective. Thy have a scoring system for punches landed. That makes it more of a sport.
First: It's whether not weather, if you're going to insult my sport by comparing it to what is essentially an steroid filled, redneck opera then use the proper words.
Second: Like I said before feel free to make your professional boxing debut and come back here and tell me all about how it's an exhibition no different than wrestling but until then you are just another beer gutted fan who despises fighting sports.
Thirdly: Do you understand the scoring system for Professional or Amatuer boxing? Do you understand the difference in a power punch and a non power punch that scores you points? Do you understand even what compubox is? Probably not, so all of your assumptions are about to come off of whatever wikepedia research you do real quick before your response.
If you want to say boxing's not a sport then fine, because you play sports, "I'm going to play football, play basketball, play soccer." You don't play boxing and then please enlighten me to how it's like that stupid professional wrestling.
Quote from: Pakuni on February 10, 2014, 04:10:30 PM
FTFY
I'm sure it's happened several times over the long history of the two sports, but when's the last time you saw a basketball or football player high during a game?
I was watching a clip on snowboarding half pipe practice today and saw several competitors complaining about conditions... that's what happens when Russia takes your pot away, you complain about a dangerous "sport" being too dangerous.
Quote from: Benny B on February 10, 2014, 10:31:58 PM
I'm sure it's happened several times over the long history of the two sports, but when's the last time you saw a basketball or football player high during a game?
I was watching a clip on snowboarding half pipe practice today and saw several competitors complaining about conditions... that's what happens when Russia takes your pot away, you complain about a dangerous "sport" being too dangerous.
Last year, Jay Williams of the Chicago Bulls said some Bulls players were high during games. Bulls denied it, but who knows.
I'm guessing it happens quite a bit more than we will ever know.
Quote from: Pakuni on February 10, 2014, 01:38:37 PM
So your inability to judge the techniques employed and skills displayed are what determines what is and isn't a sport.
It's a silly argument, regardless.
If you want to think that auto racing, darts and golf are more legitimately "sports" than boxing and figure skating, because it's easier for you to tell who won, have at it.
Pakuni, the bolded is spot on. The problem is that a lot of these sports, most people don't know the rules or understand how the scoring works. But there is certainly scoring. With any spot there are also judgement calls that can complicate matters. Again that doesn't detract from the scoring system.
As to the confusion by some of the announcers or participants. The same thing happens in all sports. I seem to recall a certain possession where there may have been a shot clock violation, but may have hit the rim, but they blew the whistle apparently before anyone had possession so they awarded the ball to the team that certainly shouldn't have gotten it...all this because they made a judgement call and made a mistake.
Similarly, a player takes a 3, but the officials call it a 2, because from there vantage point his foot was on the line. Player is irate because he thinks he was behind the line. They review it on instant replay, but it is inconclusive so they go with the 2...still a judgement call. Player is shocked...announcers who thought he was behind the line are shocked. Those are equivalent to the same things going on in these events you do not consider sports.
Let's go with figure skating for instance, to be awarded a triple whatever, there has to be complete rotation before the landing. They judge whether rotation was complete in real time and can go back to instant replays to review whether it was complete. Announcers and athlete think they complete rotation, judge reviews instant replay and disagrees, leading ot shock by the athlete and announcer. No difference than a toe on the line if you understand the rule system.
Same goes for other sports, slopestyle, did a hand touch the snow on a landing?, Did they maintain balance when landing (aka was the defender moving on a charge)?
Again just because you do not understand the nuances of the rules or scoring systems does not make it less of a sport. Also, similar to other sports surprise at official decisions by announcers or athletes does not detract from the sport (did the receiver have possession...simultaneous possession on a hail mary).
Quote from: Benny B on February 10, 2014, 10:31:58 PM
I'm sure it's happened several times over the long history of the two sports, but when's the last time you saw a basketball or football player high during a game?
I was watching a clip on snowboarding half pipe practice today and saw several competitors complaining about conditions... that's what happens when Russia takes your pot away, you complain about a dangerous "sport" being too dangerous.
You're kidding, right?
If the color commentator gets more excited than Gus Jihnson on red bull during a finish, then it's not a sport.
Quote from: forgetful on February 10, 2014, 11:15:17 PM
As to the confusion by some of the announcers or participants. The same thing happens in all sports. I seem to recall a certain possession where there may have been a shot clock violation, but may have hit the rim, but they blew the whistle apparently before anyone had possession so they awarded the ball to the team that certainly shouldn't have gotten it...all this because they made a judgement call and made a mistake.
Johnson and Rafferty are not watching a NBE game and the clocks hits to 0:00 and they are not sure if one team won or lost by 25. That is what happens with a lot of these "judgment sports."
I watched the Men's Free Style skiing last night and unless someone made an obvious error like falling, they (the competitors and "expert" announcers) did not know if that run was 7th place, 1st place or somewhere in-between. They all looked lost until the "judges" told what place it was.
Again, I'm not saying they are not athletes or athletic, they obviously are. But their sport is structured in such a way that no one knows who won until a committee of judges says who won.
I think this subjectivity runs counter the pure and objective measures of sports and I question if the current structure makes it a sport.
Restructure Men's Free Style with per-determined jumps and the fastest down wins would make it more of a sport.
Quote from: Heisenberg on February 11, 2014, 08:45:35 AM
Johnson and Rafferty are not watching a NBE game and the clocks hits to 0:00 and they are not sure if one team won or lost by 25. That is what happens with a lot of these "judgment sports."
I watched the Men's Free Style skiing last night and unless someone made an obvious error like falling, they (the competitors and "expert" announcers) did not know if that run was 7th place, 1st place or somewhere in-between. They all looked lost until the "judges" told what place it was.
Again, I'm not saying they are not athletes or athletic, they obviously are. But their sport is structured in such a way that no one knows who won until a committee of judges says who won.
I think this subjectivity runs counter the pure and objective measures of sports and I question if the current structure makes it a sport.
Restructure Men's Free Style with per-determined jumps and the fastest down wins would make it more of a sport.
How many sprints leave the competitors and commentators unsure of who won and then in shock when the results go up on the scoreboard? Same with swimming. The relay that Michael Phelps won by touching under rather the surface level on his last half stroke? Was Phelps already sure he had won before the results were shown on the scoreboard? Did he act as though he was not 1 bit surprised? No. And these are "timed" events, which some people here have used to determine whether something is a sport or not (guess baseball is not a sport). Then again, you don't play defense in a sprint so I guess it's not a sport.
Quote from: wadesworld on February 11, 2014, 09:30:59 AM
How many sprints leave the competitors and commentators unsure of who won and then in shock when the results go up on the scoreboard? Same with swimming. The relay that Michael Phelps won by touching under rather the surface level on his last half stroke? Was Phelps already sure he had won before the results were shown on the scoreboard? Did he act as though he was not 1 bit surprised? No. And these are "timed" events, which some people here have used to determine whether something is a sport or not (guess baseball is not a sport). Then again, you don't play defense in a sprint so I guess it's not a sport.
Apples to oranges. There's nothing subjective about looking at the replay of a close finish to see who crossed the line first or in waiting for the automated scoreboard to show who touched the sensor first.
I'm not sure that the amount of third party subjectivity involved determines what is a sport. If it did, chess would clearly be a sport and gymnastics would not, even though one involves no athletic skill and another is all athleticism.
But there is a good point here which is that allowing contests to be determined by neutral observers such as judges or officials obscures the athletic component. This is what is refreshing about racing sports and other "simple" games. As much as I love basketball, baseball and football, too many good games come down to arbitrary officiating decisions and in that way are no different than figure skating or snowboarding. Even golf has some bizarre scoring decisions, like when Dustin Johnson had to take a penalty on the 72nd hole of the PGA Championship for grounding his club in what he had no idea was considered a bunker.
Quote from: Benny B on February 10, 2014, 10:31:58 PM
I was watching a clip on snowboarding half pipe practice today and saw several competitors complaining about conditions... that's what happens when Russia takes your pot away, you complain about a dangerous "sport" being too dangerous.
Your evidence that snowboarders compete while high is that they're not high?
Got it.
Here's a story about NFL players complaining about the field conditions at Heinz Field.
Clearly they're all high when they play elsewhere. That's the only reason anyone complaints about a dangerous "sport" being too dangerous.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81c45dfb/printable/poor-playing-conditions-at-heinz-field-under-nfl-scrutiny
Agree 100% with the opening post. It is not a sport if a judge has to tell you who won. Figure skaters, half-pipers, etc are all tremendous athletes, but they are not competing in a sport. By the way, for all of those who say that I say that because I don't understand the scoring rules, in judged sports, even the individual judges very often pick different winners. Which means that if you picked different, equally qualified judges, you would often get different winners. So how is that a sport?
I remember when Leonard beat Hagler, AP had something like 100 judges watch and judge the fight and more than 70% of them said Hagelr won. But 2 of the 3 guys who were responsible picked Leonard. Two tremendous athletes in a fantastic contest of skill and bravery, but not sure its a sport, because you don't really know objectively who actually won. It's really just a matter of opinion.
I've had this conversation with friends and my brothers many times over the years.
Quote from: CTWarrior on February 11, 2014, 12:21:45 PM
Agree 100% with the opening post. It is not a sport if a judge has to tell you who won. Figure skaters, half-pipers, etc are all tremendous athletes, but they are not competing in a sport. By the way, for all of those who say that I say that because I don't understand the scoring rules, in judged sports, even the individual judges very often pick different winners. Which means that if you picked different, equally qualified judges, you would often get different winners. So how is that a sport?
I remember when Leonard beat Hagler, AP had something like 100 judges watch and judge the fight and more than 70% of them said Hagelr won. But 2 of the 3 guys who were responsible picked Leonard. Two tremendous athletes in a fantastic contest of skill and bravery, but not sure its a sport, because you don't really know objectively who actually won. It's really just a matter of opinion.
I've had this conversation with friends and my brothers many times over the years.
Boxing is a bit of a gray area because a match CAN be won without judges. I can't think of any other sports/events/activities/games/exhibitions that are similar, though I'm probably just overlooking them.
Speaking of events with judges, what's with dog shows?
If someone gets to judge which is the best poodle, shouldn't it be another poodle?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on February 11, 2014, 12:33:44 PM
Boxing is a bit of a gray area because a match CAN be won without judges. I can't think of any other sports/events/activities/games/exhibitions that are similar, though I'm probably just overlooking them.
Right. Boxing is a sport if there is a 10 count or they fight until one of the guys gives up.
Definition of a sport:
"An activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment".
"Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively."
They are all sports. If you want to break it down further based on the type of scoring system, by all means define some new terms, but they are by the vary definition sports.
Well the Bowling championships are here in New Jersey this week. The person who knocks down the most pins wins. QED, a sport.
Quote from: CTWarrior on February 11, 2014, 12:21:45 PM
I remember when Leonard beat Hagler, AP had something like 100 judges watch and judge the fight and more than 70% of them said Hagelr won. But 2 of the 3 guys who were responsible picked Leonard.
Well pro boxing does have a crazy rep perhaps second only to pro wrestling(sorry bagpipes) perhaps Leonard's team ponied up more $$$ to the judges
QuoteMarvin won the national amateur title in '73, and he didn't want to wait three years to try to win a gold medal. He wanted to turn pro right away because money was on his mind. He turned pro in '73 and fought somebody up in Brockton [Mass.] for 40 bucks. In 1977, after Leonard come out of the Olympics, he turned pro on ABC Wide World of Sports on a Saturday afternoon for $40,000.
from one of the judges of that fight
QuoteI don't believe it was that hard to score. I had it 115-113 for Leonard. For some reason I was just locked in that night. After the fight I told Lou Filippo, who had it 115-113 for Hagler, "I can't find a problem with your score." Lou was the type who preferred harder punches. Well, they might have been harder, but they just weren't enough — in my opinion, anyway. Lou said he didn't have a problem with my score either. As for Jo Jo Guerra's card, I believe he had it 118-110 for Leonard — that's the way he seen it, and I respect him as a judge. I don't find fault in anybody's score. Where I was sitting, I didn't see that, obviously. But believe me, there's been fights where I looked at my score and then I watched it on TV, and then I wanted to change my score a little bit. It's a possibility that you don't see the same thing in these rounds where one punch or two punches make a difference. If the referee blocks you at a key moment, that can change your view of the round. This one, I've re-watched it several times, but never changed my score. I was locked in, and what I seen that night, that's pretty much what I see each time I watch it.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on February 11, 2014, 09:36:10 AM
Apples to oranges. There's nothing subjective about looking at the replay of a close finish to see who crossed the line first or in waiting for the automated scoreboard to show who touched the sensor first.
This is true. I guess I was just trying to point out that because the athletes really don't know who won immediately following the completion of the competition and there are people who are shocked when the results are announced does not make it not a sport.
Quote from: Waldo Jeffers on February 11, 2014, 01:13:10 PM
Well pro boxing does have a crazy rep perhaps second only to pro wrestling(sorry bagpipes) perhaps Leonard's team ponied up more $$$ to the judges
from one of the judges of that fight
Won't deny there's a crazy rep, though fights were much more fixed in the old days. Outside of Bradley/Pacquiao have there been many truly upsetting results recently? Not half as many because Compubox is always watching which now provides evidence to appeal a decision. In the old days that was against the rules.
I'm fine with y'all saying it's not a sport, but compared to wrestling I'll argue this as much as chicos argues that we should all love Tom Crean.
Quote from: brandx on February 10, 2014, 11:40:08 PM
You're kidding, right?
Of course not... because if you tried to smuggle pot into Russia all they would do is take it away.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on February 11, 2014, 01:22:55 PM
Won't deny there's a crazy rep, though fights were much more fixed in the old days. Outside of Bradley/Pacquiao have there been many truly upsetting results recently? Not half as many because Compubox is always watching which now provides evidence to appeal a decision. In the old days that was against the rules.
I'm fine with y'all saying it's not a sport, but compared to wrestling I'll argue this as much as chicos argues that we should all love Tom Crean.
The Olympics before the Berlin Wall came down had comical boxing judging. When a Communist fought a Capitalist, unless there was a KO the action in the ring was irrelevant to determining the winner. It was entirely based on the composition of the judging panel.
Quote from: CTWarrior on February 11, 2014, 01:51:55 PM
The Olympics before the Berlin Wall came down had comical boxing judging. When a Communist fought a Capitalist, unless there was a KO the action in the ring was irrelevant to determining the winner. It was entirely based on the composition of the judging panel.
Wasn't born till 91 so I have no way to know. I mean I could watch the youtube videos but the majority of those boxers weren't anything extremely special after the olympics so I doubt they're on there anyways.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on February 11, 2014, 02:38:11 PM
Wasn't born till 91 so I have no way to know. I mean I could watch the youtube videos but the majority of those boxers weren't anything extremely special after the olympics so I doubt they're on there anyways.
The Eastern judges were bad, but nothing compared to the 88 Seoul games where Roy Jones just destroyed his South Korean opponent in the gold medal bout but lost the decision.
Floyd Mayweather got screwed pretty bad in the 96 Olympics. The ref raised Floyd's arm in anticipation of him winning, but the judges ruled otherwise. It was at the very least incompetence, but there were claims of corruption too because the judges were afraid to rule against his opponent because the head of the refs and judges for the Olympic boxing was a fellow countryman of Mayweather's opponent (they were Bulgarian).
Quote from: Archies Bat on February 11, 2014, 03:09:55 PM
The Eastern judges were bad, but nothing compared to the 88 Seoul games where Roy Jones just destroyed his South Korean opponent in the gold medal bout but lost the decision.
Seen that fight a million times, even Park Si-Hun admitted that he lost the fight later. Definitely one of the bigger amateur robberies in boxing. Though I'd say that Roy did just fine in boxing without the gold medal. Don't know why Jones was fighting that light though, he wouldn't have been robbed if he fought at a bit higher of a class. Also this fight lead to a different scoring system.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on February 11, 2014, 03:11:40 PM
Floyd Mayweather got screwed pretty bad in the 96 Olympics. The ref raised Floyd's arm in anticipation of him winning, but the judges ruled otherwise. It was at the very least incompetence, but there were claims of corruption too because the judges were afraid to rule against his opponent because the head of the refs and judges for the Olympic boxing was a fellow countryman of Mayweather's opponent (they were Bulgarian).
Also one of the biggest robberies. I remember watching that with my Grandpa and him explaining what was going on and being upset but not entirely sure why.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on February 10, 2014, 06:04:33 PM
Weightlifting is not a sport it's an athletic competition.
Best example of splitting a short red curly female one
Quote from: Benny B on February 10, 2014, 10:31:58 PM
I'm sure it's happened several times over the long history of the two sports, but when's the last time you saw a basketball or football player high during a game?
I was watching a clip on snowboarding half pipe practice today and saw several competitors complaining about conditions... that's what happens when Russia takes your pot away, you complain about a dangerous "sport" being too dangerous.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2013/story/_/id/10375220/brendan-ayanbadejo-says-players-smoked-marijuana-super-bowl
Quote from: mr.MUskie on February 14, 2014, 06:35:11 PM
http://espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2013/story/_/id/10375220/brendan-ayanbadejo-says-players-smoked-marijuana-super-bowl
That must have been the strongest weed ever for them to have smoked it days before yet still been high during the game.
Quote from: Benny B on February 14, 2014, 09:56:06 PM
That must have been the strongest weed ever for them to have smoked it days before yet still been high during the game.
Hey it's not like that crap we smoked back in my day. :D
We had to smoke a lot of weed to turn Japanese like the emoticon.
Quote from: keefe on February 14, 2014, 05:04:34 PM
Best example of splitting a short red curly female one
I have no idea what you're getting at...
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on February 14, 2014, 10:57:14 PM
I have no idea what you're getting at...
Must not be an engineer. Never heard of an RCH??
Quote from: keefe on February 15, 2014, 05:05:00 AM
Must not be an engineer. Never heard of an RCH??
Nope in Advertising and had some time in psych definitely not an engineer.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 10, 2014, 11:08:33 PM
Last year, Jay Williams of the Chicago Bulls said some Bulls players were high during games. Bulls denied it, but who knows.
I'm guessing it happens quite a bit more than we will ever know.
Yea, Sam Worthen and O Lee were sober as judges when they laced up for the Warriors...
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 11, 2014, 12:40:58 PM
Speaking of events with judges, what's with dog shows?
If someone gets to judge which is the best poodle, shouldn't it be another poodle?
And the winner is...
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/JiFA9Tvr0Uk/mqdefault.jpg)
Are figure skaters amazing athletes? Yes. (Piper, so are boxers)
But the way they compete is not a sport. See ....
http://t.today.com/sochi/figure-skater-ashley-wagner-scoring-controversy-get-rid-anonymous-judging-2D12149956
Quote from: esard2011 on February 10, 2014, 01:03:18 PM
Bowl 12 games in a day and tell me it doesnt test physical limits. Just to clarify I never said boxing wasnt a sport, I agree it is and its a sport I would never ever attempt. I was just complaining about the Olympic boxing judging. Never made sense to me.
Bowling 12 games is hardly what I would call testing physical limits.