Derrick Wilson, Thomas, Mayo, Burton, Otule.
Got four of the five best defenders, four of the five steals leaders, the two best shot blockers, the two best 3PT shooters and three of the four highest field goal percentages. Not sure that lineup can run with everybody, but pieced together they were a very interesting combination.
Quote from: chapman on February 04, 2014, 10:52:07 PM
Derrick Wilson, Thomas, Mayo, Burton, Otule.
Got four of the five best defenders, four of the five steals leaders, the two best shot blockers, the two best 3PT shooters and three of the four highest field goal percentages. Not sure that lineup can run with everybody, but pieced together they were a very interesting combination.
Any lineup looks good when you make shots. If they can consistently bring that effort and success then it might be the one that sticks. Unfortunately, I think Buzz will have to continue to piece line ups together based on match ups.
Might be the first time this season that the team looked like more than just the sum of its parts. Good synergy. We'll see....
I'd like to see one change, switch Dawson fot Derick and see what happens.
While I agree that lineup was awesome tonight, wasn't some of that based on match-ups with Butler? How does that lineup stack up against Creighton, X, Villanova? Jamil and Gardner need to log big minutes as well for us to be successful. We'll see how it shakes out though
Quote from: BallBoy on February 04, 2014, 10:54:37 PM
Any lineup looks good when you make shots. If they can consistently bring that effort and success then it might be the one that sticks. Unfortunately, I think Buzz will have to continue to piece line ups together based on match ups.
I hope you are right, but consistency has been one of our biggest problems.
Quote from: denverMU on February 04, 2014, 10:57:16 PM
I'd like to see one change, switch Dawson fot Derick and see what happens.
A big part of that run was Derrick's D on Dunham, his 5 steals and most of his 8 assists. That lineup didn't need another 3 point shooter. Mayo (inside and outside) and Thomas for that, Burton inside, Otule and D Wilson to pass, seal and play D.
But Todd Mayo is a cancer....has a bad attitude....this team would be better off without him....he's nowhere near the player Vander Blue was...
Pretty scary to think what this team would look like without Todd. Funny some felt basketball minds here felt the above to be true.
Todd's had to endure as much crap from the MU fanbase as Derrick has....the attacks on Todd have largely been character attacks...more than attacks/critiques on his game.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 04, 2014, 11:06:31 PM
A big part of that run was Derrick's D on Dunham, his 5 steals and most of his 8 assists. That lineup didn't need another 3 point shooter. Mayo (inside and outside) and Thomas for that, Burton inside, Otule and D Wilson to pass, seal and play D.
Lenny....I can almost agree and go along with you on all of this. I did think Derrick's D tonight was really good. Would still like to see Dawson in that lineup...but it worked well tonight with Derrick...yet Mayo was simply brilliant creating a lot of that on his own.
Burton on the other hand...a little TOO trigger happy...but is just too much of a physical force to NOT have on the floor for 20 minutes a game at this point. Kid needs to play.
Quote from: Ners on February 04, 2014, 11:10:04 PM
Lenny....I can almost agree and go along with you on all of this. I did think Derrick's D tonight was really good. Would still like to see Dawson in that lineup...but it worked well tonight with Derrick...yet Mayo was simply brilliant creating a lot of that on his own.
Burton on the other hand...tough TOO trigger happy...is just too much of a physical force to NOT have on the floor for 20 minutes a game at this point. Kid needs to play.
His steals/deflections are unbelievable. For his occasional defensive lapses, I think his forcing turnovers is worth it.
Quote from: Ners on February 04, 2014, 11:06:53 PM
But Todd Mayo is a cancer....has a bad attitude....this team would be better off without him....he's nowhere near the player Vander Blue was...
Pretty scary to think what this team would look like without Todd. Funny some felt basketball minds here felt the above to be true.
Todd's had to endure as much crap from the MU fanbase as Derrick has....the attacks on Todd have largely been character attacks...more than attacks/critiques on his game.
I don't believe in attacking either, but you've got to admit going after a guy because he's a poor shooter is different from going after a guy who has had serious academic and behavioral problems (multiple suspensions). Those were problems Todd brought on himself.
Quote from: Ners on February 04, 2014, 11:06:53 PM
But Todd Mayo is a cancer....has a bad attitude....this team would be better off without him....he's nowhere near the player Vander Blue was...
If Mayo brought his game consistently. In a game like today he looked unstoppable. In other games, not so much.
As I have mentioned before, everyone on the team is an incomplete player. Mayo is included in that.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 04, 2014, 11:14:38 PM
I don't believe in attacking either, but you've got to admit going after a guy because he's a poor shooter is different from going after a guy who has had serious academic and behavioral problems (multiple suspensions). Those were problems Todd brought on himself.
I know you don't ever attack anything related to MU hoops Lenny (perhaps other than Crean)...you are a GREAT fan through and through. Don't ever recall you attacking Todd...
Regarding Todd - his "life story" as Buzz would tell it, has been pretty hellacious...and far less stable than a kid like Derrick who comes from a 2 parent/military father household. Yes, Todd has had some academic and behavioral problems at MU...yet his path to MU largely explains those challenges/character issues. I've said before, Todd could have bailed on MU and Buzz many times...lots of D-1 programs wanted him when there was the offseason acrimony of him being sent him to W.V. Aki tried to get him to go to Memphis....so for Todd sticking it out...for that alone I applaud him.
As for critiquing guys basketball games - well - they are all a hell of a lot better than all of us...but with the full ride scholarship they earn for basketball...I don't feel it is entirely off limits to be critical of their basketball skills...if warranted/deserved.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 04, 2014, 11:06:31 PM
A big part of that run was Derrick's D on Dunham, his 5 steals and most of his 8 assists. That lineup didn't need another 3 point shooter. Mayo (inside and outside) and Thomas for that, Burton inside, Otule and D Wilson to pass, seal and play D.
Hard to win too many games with 2 starters(DWilson/Jake) playing a combined 64 minutes, going 2-11 from the field, 2-4 from ft line, 6 to's, 10 assts, 7 Rebs, and 5 stls. Good assts and stls but no help offensively.
Quote from: denverMU on February 04, 2014, 11:24:33 PM
Hard to win too many games with 2 starters(DWilson/Jake) playing a combined 64 minutes, going 2-11 from the field, 2-4 from ft line, 6 to's, 10 assts, 7 Rebs, and 5 stls. Good assts and stls but no help offensively.
They were on the court for the entire comeback, where we turned a 10 point deficit into an easy win. A lot of our points were the direct result of defense, something those guys were playing exceptionally well. So, no.
Quote from: denverMU on February 04, 2014, 11:24:33 PM
Hard to win too many games with 2 starters(DWilson/Jake) playing a combined 64 minutes, going 2-11 from the field, 2-4 from ft line, 6 to's, 10 assts, 7 Rebs, and 5 stls. Good assts and stls but no help offensively.
Assists by definition are helping offensively.
Quote from: BallBoy on February 04, 2014, 11:46:56 PM
Assists by definition are helping offensively.
technically, by definition....it isn't.
But your point is accurate.
The select few who constantly harp on Otule -- right down to saying they don't think he should ever see the court -- where are they?
I of course love what Gardner brings offensively, but it was a dunk and layup festival when he was in the game. Otule comes in ... and all of a sudden Butler has to earn its baskets. No, we can't depend on him to score, so if others aren't hitting, he can't be in there. But if a few guys are making shots, Otule is a valuable player.
Unlike, say, Derrick and Jake, who would get little playing time for top programs during good seasons -- kind of like Marquette last season, when they combined to average 15 minutes in BE play -- a 6-11 guy who moves well and can block shots would find a spot in the rotation of LOTS of teams.
I'm still glad we have him.
Quote from: Ners on February 04, 2014, 11:21:53 PM
I know you don't ever attack anything related to MU hoops Lenny (perhaps other than Crean)...you are a GREAT fan through and through. Don't ever recall you attacking Todd...
Regarding Todd - his "life story" as Buzz would tell it, has been pretty hellacious...and far less stable than a kid like Derrick who comes from a 2 parent/military father household. Yes, Todd has had some academic and behavioral problems at MU...yet his path to MU largely explains those challenges/character issues. I've said before, Todd could have bailed on MU and Buzz many times...lots of D-1 programs wanted him when there was the offseason acrimony of him being sent him to W.V. Aki tried to get him to go to Memphis....so for Todd sticking it out...for that alone I applaud him.
As for critiquing guys basketball games - well - they are all a hell of a lot better than all of us...but with the full ride scholarship they earn for basketball...I don't feel it is entirely off limits to be critical of their basketball skills...if warranted/deserved.
You are correct on Todd's background. It's one of the reasons I've pulled so hard for him. He took this year's suspension to heart AND he has said all the right things in interviews since. I hope he's already turned that corner and that tonight he turned one on the court. Nothing would make me happier.
Quote from: MU82 on February 04, 2014, 11:49:36 PM
I of course love what Gardner brings offensively, but it was a dunk and layup festival when he was in the game. Otule comes in ... and all of a sudden Butler has to earn its baskets. No, we can't depend on him to score, so if others aren't hitting, he can't be in there. But if a few guys are making shots, Otule is a valuable player.
So you like what DG brings offensively, but not defensively........and you like what CO brings defensively, but not offensively.
...and so goes the off for def playing time that Buzz was referring to. When CO/Burton/Dawson/Mayo/Thomas etc. have a good game.......they all should play '20+ min a game" when they stink......"inexperienced"...."he cant catch the ball"..."bad attiitude"..."not high major talent" etc. Its been this way since the first game---on the court and on this board.
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 04, 2014, 11:14:27 PM
His steals/deflections are unbelievable. For his occasional defensive lapses, I think his forcing turnovers is worth it.
And if any lineup was going to minimize his defensive liability it's this one. D Wil, Jake, Todd are the best perimeter defenders, Otule is tough to deal with inside. If that liability can be minimized, you get to reap the beneifts of the guy who leads the team in steals and is second on the team in blocks despite being eighth in minutes.
Quote from: denverMU on February 04, 2014, 10:57:16 PM
I'd like to see one change, switch Dawson fot Derick and see what happens.
Defense got us back into that game, and DW was essential to that defense IMO. I don't think Dawson would have been nearly as effective. Perhaps on a night when Mayo's shot isn't working as well as it was and you need a little more on the offensive side that makes sense, but last night the turnaround was all around the D and the plethora of stops and steals thay managed.
Quote from: denverMU on February 04, 2014, 11:24:33 PM
Hard to win too many games with 2 starters(DWilson/Jake) playing a combined 64 minutes, going 2-11 from the field, 2-4 from ft line, 6 to's, 10 assts, 7 Rebs, and 5 stls. Good assts and stls but no help offensively.
<facepalm>
That group was able to dominate defensively against a team that frankly doesn't have much offensive firepower. Once Mayo got on a roll that was the winning formula. On most nights we will need to rely more on Gardner and Jamil, who were both very good.
Also, I really miss the days when we dominated the free throw line. Could have been a much easier win if we make FTs.
Quote from: denverMU on February 04, 2014, 11:24:33 PM
Hard to win too many games with 2 starters(DWilson/Jake) playing a combined 64 minutes, going 2-11 from the field, 2-4 from ft line, 6 to's, 10 assts, 7 Rebs, and 5 stls. Good assts and stls but no help offensively.
If we get that kind of production from our starting backcourt, we are going to lose a lot of games. We were able to get by last night against arguably the worst team in the BE. It was still a struggle and we needed Mayo to put his superman cape on to bail us out. Against the good teams, that kind of production is not going to cut it and has proven true with our record this year.
The reason that line-up was successful against Butler was a match-up thing. It you notice, especially in the last 5 minutes of the game the team run the same set which consisted of the 2 guard weave(Wilson right to left bringing it to Mayo moving left to right) while Burton and Otule set a double screen, with Burton(as first screener) flashing to the weak side block and Otule staying forcing his man to hedge on Mayo the shooter. Meanwhile Jake went to the right corner perimeter. This gave Mayo the choice to drive the edge of the hedge without any big men defenders down low or if no hedge came to take a shot. If Jake's defender helped off on the drive it left Jake open. Wilson and his man were on the left side away from the action preventing and help from that direction. Lastly Burton was in position for a dump off or a rebound with Otule in trailing position for a long rebound on the 3pt shot.
It took advantage of Butler's lack of lateral foot speed and 45s foul trouble. It also was made possible by the fact that Mayo was hitting shots. However, that won't work against say a Creighton who is much more perimeter oriented. We are going to continue to see a mismatch of line-ups because we don't have the right compesition to just roll the ball out and play....MU has to win with strategy not talent
It was great coaching by Buzz and even better execution by the players, pretty exciting stuff
Quote from: mu03eng on February 05, 2014, 08:41:42 AM
It was great coaching by Buzz and even better execution by the players, pretty exciting stuff
Get outta here with that Buzz-praise!! Don't you know that Buzz obviously forgot how to coach the last three months!
As much as I wish that this lineup is the one we have been searching for as the announcers last night suggested, I don't think it's the case. Most teams have 5 or at least 4 well rounded players who should clearly be starting every night and then bring role players off the bench.
We have a lot of players with glaring shortcomings, so Buzz needs to mix and match based on the matchups. Buzz has done a good job in some games coming in with plan to win that works (George Washington, Providence). Others he has not (Creighton, Saint John's). Others he has come in with a good game plan but then has been unable to adjust when the opposing coach adjusted (Butler part 1, New Mexico).
Last night might have been the first game this season where we came in with a bad plan and then were able to adjust. Hope to see more of that
You're right, Eagle. Our best offensive lineup is Dawson, Todd, Jamil, Deonte and Davante - but they might go 10 minutes between stops. Our best defensive lineup is Derrick, Jake, ? (Juan or Todd), Jamil and Otule but they might go 10 minutes without a basket.
If we want more Burton, fine - as long as people understand that means more Otule to cover for his defensive lapses. And if Otule and Derrick are in there together you'd better have three of Todd, Jamil, Deonte and Jake in for balance. Last year we had a guy who excelled on both ends of the court (Blue) four guys who could do a little of both (Junior, Trent, Jamil, Todd), one offensive specialist (Davante) and 2 defensive specialists (Derrick and Chris). This year it's a couple of guys who can do a little of both (Todd, Jamil) and a bunch of guys (due to lack of ability or experience) who are "specialists". Too many one dimensional players to hide so Buzz is forced to give minutes based on match ups and who is playing well that night. Going forward, we'll see lots of Todd, Jamil and Derrick. The balance of time TBD. Sometimes it will look disjointed, but that's what's necessary when you have too many "specialists".
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 05, 2014, 12:51:24 PM
You're right, Eagle. Our best offensive lineup is Dawson, Todd, Jamil, Deonte and Davante - but they might go 10 minutes between stops. Our best defensive lineup is Derrick, Jake, ? (Juan or Todd), Jamil and Otule but they might go 10 minutes without a basket.
If we want more Burton, fine - as long as people understand that means more Otule to cover for his defensive lapses. And if Otule and Derrick are in there together you'd better have three of Todd, Jamil, Deonte and Jake in for balance. Last year we had a guy who excelled on both ends of the court (Blue) four guys who could do a little of both (Junior, Trent, Jamil, Todd), one offensive specialist (Davante) and 2 defensive specialists (Derrick and Chris). This year it's a couple of guys who can do a little of both (Todd, Jamil) and a bunch of guys (due to lack of ability or experience) who are "specialists". Too many one dimensional players to hide so Buzz is forced to give minutes based on match ups and who is playing well that night. Going forward, we'll see lots of Todd, Jamil and Derrick. The balance of time TBD. Sometimes it will look disjointed, but that's what's necessary when you have too many "specialists".
Perfect post.