How can you win, when you combine the following in the backcourt? (Guys getting most and 3rd most minutes on the team)
Jake Thomas - Two, made 2pt FGs through 20 games and 552 minutes - or one, two point FG made every 276 minutes or 1 make per 7, full 40 minute games played.
Derrick Wilson - One, 3pt FG made in 587 minutes of play. That translates into 1 make in 14.65 FULL 40 minute games.
I would suspect NEVER in the history of college basketball has there been such a bizarre pairing of players, all the while being given MAX minutes.
Seriously, how can you win with 2 guards who are so incredibly limited in one of the two main components of playing offensive basketball - 2, and 3 point shooting??
But, perhaps its simply a lack of leadership this year...
Quote from: Ners on January 29, 2014, 10:36:34 AM
How can you win, when you combine the following in the backcourt? (Guys getting most and 3rd most minutes on the team)
Jake Thomas - Two, made 2pt FGs through 20 games and 552 minutes - or one, two point FG made every 276 minutes or 1 make per 7, full 40 minute games played.
Derrick Wilson - One, 3pt FG made in 587 minutes of play. That translates into 1 make in 14.65 FULL 40 minute games.
I would suspect NEVER in the history of college basketball has there been such a bizarre pairing of players, all the while being given MAX minutes.
Seriously, how can you win with 2 guards who are so incredibly limited in one of the two main components of playing offensive basketball - 2, and 3 point shooting??
But, perhaps its simply a lack of leadership this year...
Ners, can you answer this:
Is your main concern Derrick playing or Dawson not playing? What I mean, is, would you be ok if Buzz decided to start/play Mayo at the point and sit Derrick? If the argument is for outside shooting and putting pressure on the defense and better FT percentage, etc. wouldn't Mayo qualify? We'd get improved offense and Derrick would be relegated to backup PG minutes. Thoughts?
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 29, 2014, 10:38:06 AM
Ners, can you answer this:
Is your main concern Derrick playing or Dawson not playing? What I mean, is, would you be ok if Buzz decided to start/play Mayo at the point and sit Derrick? If the argument is for outside shooting and putting pressure on the defense and better FT percentage, etc. wouldn't Mayo qualify? We'd get improved offense and Derrick would be relegated to backup PG minutes. Thoughts?
I genuinely believe our best lineup would be to have Dawson running the point, and Todd getting 30+ minutes at the 2. Perhaps could play some 3 guard lineup at times and add Jake to that mix.
But, if given the choice by Buzz to where he'd say - you can have one or the other: Todd running the point for 30 minutes per game, or Derrick - I'd take Todd in a heartbeat without the blink of an eye. Again, assuming Dawson wasn't an option.
Overall best lineup in my view: Dawson, Todd, Jamil, Steve, Gardner....think that lineup could achieve REALLY good things. IT blows me away that at this point we've yet to see this implemented, and continue to roll out the Derrick and Jake combo - that puts up those almost surreal numbers.
Another thread like this? The two dozen that already exist aren't enough?
Jesus....
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on January 29, 2014, 10:44:46 AM
Another thread like this? The two dozen that already exist aren't enough?
Jesus....
Sorry Sultan - just thought the topic merited its own thread...as not sure it's ever been put in those terms/comparisons. If you'd like, feel free to answer the question posed..
Quote from: Ners on January 29, 2014, 10:36:34 AM
How can you win, when you combine the following in the backcourt? (Guys getting most and 3rd most minutes on the team)
Jake Thomas - Two, made 2pt FGs through 20 games and 552 minutes - or one, two point FG made every 276 minutes or 1 make per 7, full 40 minute games played.
Derrick Wilson - One, 3pt FG made in 587 minutes of play. That translates into 1 make in 14.65 FULL 40 minute games.
I would suspect NEVER in the history of college basketball has there been such a bizarre pairing of players, all the while being given MAX minutes.
Seriously, how can you win with 2 guards who are so incredibly limited in one of the two main components of playing offensive basketball - 2, and 3 point shooting??
But, perhaps its simply a lack of leadership this year...
The worst backcourt in the country? I would tend to believe that, Buzz is blind. As much as you like Dawson, somehow in practice Dawson must need bring it because he has tried Jamil Wilson at it and that really is a worst mistake. I am sure it is frustrating for Buzz that Todd has not taken a bigger role in the team. Todd seems to play better as a 3. At least Buzz, has
sat down Juan and much less time for Chris. 500 club at best.
Quote from: Ners on January 29, 2014, 10:36:34 AM
How can you win, when you combine the following in the backcourt? (Guys getting most and 3rd most minutes on the team)
Jake Thomas - Two, made 2pt FGs through 20 games and 552 minutes - or one, two point FG made every 276 minutes or 1 make per 7, full 40 minute games played.
Derrick Wilson - One, 3pt FG made in 587 minutes of play. That translates into 1 make in 14.65 FULL 40 minute games.
I would suspect NEVER in the history of college basketball has there been such a bizarre pairing of players, all the while being given MAX minutes.
Seriously, how can you win with 2 guards who are so incredibly limited in one of the two main components of playing offensive basketball - 2, and 3 point shooting??
But, perhaps its simply a lack of leadership this year...
(http://i.imgur.com/94PvO.gif)
I agree 100% with Ners on this, and I'm not a Buzz-hater or a Derrick-hater or a Jake-hater. I just can't believe a high-major with high aspirations settles for what has to be one of the least productive starting backcourts in the nation when there are other options to at least try.
I get the whole "Buzz sees them everyday in practice" argument, and I have used it selectively to defend giving Derrick and Jake at least some minutes rather than benching them entirely as some want to do.
But Buzz also sees them twice a week in games. And he isn't blind or stupid so he must see that it isn't working. Sometimes, change for the sake of change is justifiable, and this would seem to be one of those times.
His dispersal of backcourt minutes continues to be a real head-scratcher for me.
Ners
+1
Have little to no chance competing against quality teams with those two paired together for long stretches of time. I actually thought Buzz would have caved on this experiment after holidays but I guess not. Makes it very difficult to stay excited. I am fan for long haul but hope this turns off too many people. If so, pressure is on next year to improve a great deal and quickly.
Quote from: MU82 on January 29, 2014, 10:55:22 AM
I agree 100% with Ners on this, and I'm not a Buzz-hater or a Derrick-hater or a Jake-hater. I just can't believe a high-major with high aspirations settles for what has to be one of the least productive starting backcourts in the nation when there are other options to at least try.
I get the whole "Buzz sees them everyday in practice" argument, and I have used it selectively to defend giving Derrick and Jake at least some minutes rather than benching them entirely as some want to do.
But Buzz also sees them twice a week in games. And he isn't blind or stupid so he must see that it isn't working. Sometimes, change for the sake of change is justifiable, and this would seem to be one of those times.
His dispersal of backcourt minutes continues to be a real head-scratcher for me.
+1
But reinko's gif has me DYING with laughter
The theory about the combo hurting us is one I tend to agree with. My question for you is why you continually focus on Dawson replacing Derrick instead of Jake?
Both Derrick and Jake have their limitations. But when you look at the biggest strength Dawson has shown thus far, it's the ability to hit outside shots. Regardless of a label as a PG or SG, this would seem to make him a more logical replacement for Jake. So if your premise is that the combo of Jake and Derrick is what's hurting us, why the constant focus on Derrick?
If you're inclined to view it statistically, Derrick is more successful than Jake playing very similar minutes. Jake averages 2.1 ppg more than Derrick (7.2 to 5.1), but Derrick more than makes up for it with assists and rebounds. Derrick gets 4.2 rpg to Jake's 2.7 (an extra 1.5 possessions per game), and his net turnovers/assists (2.2 for Derrick vs 0.4 for Jake) helps us net an extra 3.6 ppg...more than making up for the 2.1 ppg disparity (and that's assuming all the assists are for 2s - it gets greater when you note that some assists are on 3s). I am on record as saying stats aren't everything...but since so many people focus on them, I find it interesting to see that Derrick's offensive stats are actually better than Jake's.
My inclination is that if Buzz were to make a move, it would be to get Dawson more of Jake's minutes. Both can hit the 3 in rhythm, but Dawson can also move with the ball and create his own shot.
One day I'd like to come to Scoop and not see a new thread regarding our starting PG and/or SG deficiencies. Tomorrow won't be that day either because we all know as soon as Derrick makes a turnover or misses a shot a new thread will begin...one day though (sigh)
Quote from: Ners on January 29, 2014, 10:36:34 AM
How can you win, when you combine the following in the backcourt? (Guys getting most and 3rd most minutes on the team)
Jake Thomas - Two, made 2pt FGs through 20 games and 552 minutes - or one, two point FG made every 276 minutes or 1 make per 7, full 40 minute games played.
Derrick Wilson - One, 3pt FG made in 587 minutes of play. That translates into 1 make in 14.65 FULL 40 minute games.
I would suspect NEVER in the history of college basketball has there been such a bizarre pairing of players, all the while being given MAX minutes.
Seriously, how can you win with 2 guards who are so incredibly limited in one of the two main components of playing offensive basketball - 2, and 3 point shooting??
But, perhaps its simply a lack of leadership this year...
As we've seen this year, you can't. At least not against good teams. But hey, let's keep rolling it out anyway.
Funny - everytime I arrive at a game and look at the scoreboard to see the starting lineup (which usually has Wilson, Thomas and Otule) - I say to myself, "keep rolling it out there Buzz"
was worse when Andersen was in the lineup...
Quote from: 4th and State on January 29, 2014, 03:13:38 PM
As we've seen this year, you can't. At least not against good teams. But hey, let's keep rolling it out anyway.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 29, 2014, 02:31:42 PM
The theory about the combo hurting us is one I tend to agree with. My question for you is why you continually focus on Dawson replacing Derrick instead of Jake?
Both Derrick and Jake have their limitations. But when you look at the biggest strength Dawson has shown thus far, it's the ability to hit outside shots. Regardless of a label as a PG or SG, this would seem to make him a more logical replacement for Jake. So if your premise is that the combo of Jake and Derrick is what's hurting us, why the constant focus on Derrick?
If you're inclined to view it statistically, Derrick is more successful than Jake playing very similar minutes. Jake averages 2.1 ppg more than Derrick (7.2 to 5.1), but Derrick more than makes up for it with assists and rebounds. Derrick gets 4.2 rpg to Jake's 2.7 (an extra 1.5 possessions per game), and his net turnovers/assists (2.2 for Derrick vs 0.4 for Jake) helps us net an extra 3.6 ppg...more than making up for the 2.1 ppg disparity (and that's assuming all the assists are for 2s - it gets greater when you note that some assists are on 3s). I am on record as saying stats aren't everything...but since so many people focus on them, I find it interesting to see that Derrick's offensive stats are actually better than Jake's.
My inclination is that if Buzz were to make a move, it would be to get Dawson more of Jake's minutes. Both can hit the 3 in rhythm, but Dawson can also move with the ball and create his own shot.
The reason the emphasis on Derrick being more of a detriment than Jake, is that Jake does have a high major talent - his 3pt shot...and he helps to space the floor. Plus, I wouldn't give Dawson time at the 2, over Mayo - so we have a very talented 2 beyond Jake as it is in Todd. Additionally, I feel Jake can be an asset due to his high major skill..when paired with a PG that is a threat to score and also space the floor.
I just don't feel Derrick has high major ability in anything beyond being a solid defender. He's negative/negative/negative as a 3 pt shooter, 2 pt shooter, 1 pt shooter - and I don't feel he's very good at seeing the floor, helping the team have a transition game.
You cannot have a PG getting 30+ minutes per game that has made 2, 3pt shots in his career (through 20 games as junior).
Quote from: Ners on January 29, 2014, 04:41:59 PM
The reason the emphasis on Derrick being more of a detriment than Jake, is that Jake does have a high major talent - his 3pt shot...and he helps to space the floor. Plus, I wouldn't give Dawson time at the 2, over Mayo - so we have a very talented 2 beyond Jake as it is in Todd. Additionally, I feel Jake can be an asset due to his high major skill..when paired with a PG that is a threat to score and also space the floor.
I just don't feel Derrick has high major ability in anything beyond being a solid defender. He's negative/negative/negative as a 3 pt shooter, 2 pt shooter, 1 pt shooter - and I don't feel he's very good at seeing the floor, helping the team have a transition game.
You cannot have a PG getting 30+ minutes per game that has made 2, 3pt shots in his career (through 20 games as junior).
Interesting. So Jake has high major talent but would never have gotten a scholarship if Vander hadn't left, while Derrick clearly had a scholarship all along, but doesn't have high major talent? You must not think much of Buzz as an evaluator of talent.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 29, 2014, 05:00:05 PM
Interesting. So Jake has high major talent but would never have gotten a scholarship if Vander hadn't left, while Derrick clearly had a scholarship all along, but doesn't have high major talent? You must not think much of Buzz as an evaluator of talent.
You asked a question, and I gave you the answer. I said Jake has a high major skill, and its a valuable on at that - being a good 3 point shooter with very good range. As for Derrick, he didn't come to MU with great acclaim, came in known as a high character kid, that was physical - his stock plummeted from his sophomore year in HS, when he was a consensus Top 75 prospect, to falling off to a 3 star by senior year. MU took a flyer on him, much like you could say they took a flyer on Dawson. Unfortunately, Derrick hasn't been able to make a big step up and show he's worthy of being anything more than a solid backup PG at this level.
What's your whole love affair with Derrick anyway? Seriously? What about his performance through 20 games as a junior makes you feel he's worthy of 30+ minutes - particularly when in a recent game against a decent opponent, on the road at Georgetown - when he's relegated to 10 minutes...we actually win??
Quote from: Ners on January 29, 2014, 05:09:59 PM
You asked a question, and I gave you the answer. I said Jake has a high major skill, and its a valuable on at that - being a good 3 point shooter with very good range. As for Derrick, he didn't come to MU with great acclaim, came in known as a high character kid, that was physical - his stock plummeted from his sophomore year in HS, when he was a consensus Top 75 prospect, to falling off to a 3 star by senior year. MU took a flyer on him, much like you could say they took a flyer on Dawson. Unfortunately, Derrick hasn't been able to make a big step up and show he's worthy of being anything more than a solid backup PG at this level.
What's your whole love affair with Derrick anyway? Seriously? What about his performance through 20 games as a junior makes you feel he's worthy of 30+ minutes - particularly when in a recent game against a decent opponent, on the road at Georgetown - when he's relegated to 10 minutes...we actually win??
I asked a question and backed it up with this statistics. You conveniently ignored the stats that I used to show that Derrick contributes more actual points to the offense through his own scoring, rebounding and assists. The last time I checked, the NCAA awards the win to the team that scores the most points. In that regard, he has done more than Jake this year.
I also think it's interesting that you continue to show impatience with Derrick because he's 20 games into his junior year. Were you aware that Jake is 20 games into his fifth-year senior campaign? When are you going to get impatient with him for not yet producing?
I have no love affair with Derrick. He is clearly a limited player. But he has also shown that of the options Buzz has available to him, he's the best point guard we have. I haven't seen the same from Jake, and you even seem to agree with that...yet I don't see you constantly starting threads calling for the benching of Jake and replacing him with Todd. Why is that?
And I don't hate Dawson. I would be fine with him getting 10 or so minutes backing Derrick up at point guard, and perhaps an additional 5 to 10 backing up Todd at shooting guard.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 29, 2014, 05:48:23 PM
I asked a question and backed it up with this statistics. You conveniently ignored the stats that I used to show that Derrick contributes more actual points to the offense through his own scoring, rebounding and assists. The last time I checked, the NCAA awards the win to the team that scores the most points. In that regard, he has done more than Jake this year.
I also think it's interesting that you continue to show impatience with Derrick because he's 20 games into his junior year. Were you aware that Jake is 20 games into his fifth-year senior campaign? When are you going to get impatient with him for not yet producing?
I have no love affair with Derrick. He is clearly a limited player. But he has also shown that of the options Buzz has available to him, he's the best point guard we have. I haven't seen the same from Jake, and you even seem to agree with that...yet I don't see you constantly starting threads calling for the benching of Jake and replacing him with Todd. Why is that?
And I don't hate Dawson. I would be fine with him getting 10 or so minutes backing Derrick up at point guard, and perhaps an additional 5 to 10 backing up Todd at shooting guard.
Actually, this thread was started calling into question both Derrick and Jake - so not just targeting Derrick. You asked me why I focus on Dawson replacing Derrick and not Jake. I just believe Derrick is the bigger detriment between the two. Defenses actually guard Jake!! That's what value Jake brings. Defenses sag off Derrick and make us play 4 on 5 - Buzz has said as much. There is value beyond points that Jake brings, because of the fact he has to be guarded...which spaces the court for Davante - albeit it then gets negated somewhat when Derrick's defender sags to the paint - as most teams have chosen to defend Derrick.
But to your point - the NCAA awards the win to the team that scores the most points. Derrick is NOT by any means the best offensive point guard on the roster....and as we saw in Nova game we got lit up defensively and he got max minutes. Dawson is a better player right now, and a better prospect for the future. I suspect you will see this play out yet this year.
How about something we can all agree on... this is an awesome F-up by UW Madison:
http://msn.foxsports.com/buzzer/story/russell-wilson-billboard-has-typo-012914
Quote from: reinko on January 29, 2014, 10:51:29 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/94PvO.gif)
how in the hell has this never been used before on this board???
It comes down to -- the numbers don't lie.
This backcourt is absolutely brutal on the offensive end of the floor. Probably as bad as any Division 1 team in a major conference that I can remember. Not this year - but historically.
Both these guys should be playing 6-10 minutes a game and never anymore except for foul trouble or injury.
Ners is absolutely correct on this. This isn't a case of 'using' numbers to fit an argument. The numbers are irrefutable. And the team's record reflect what these numbers mean in the context of our team as a whole.
This team will absolutely not make the tournament if out two starting guards continue to rack up these kinds of minutes. The regular season is lost and there is no hope for the conference tournament without Dawson, Mayo and JJJ getting the bulk of the minutes at guard.
But worst of all, this team borders on unwatchable at times with our current lineup.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on January 29, 2014, 06:41:03 PM
how in the hell has this never been used before on this board???
Is it Ners?
Well the debate continues on a topic that only Buzz will decide. I will be surprised if he changes course. He has already bet the season on these two guards with all their well recognized limitations. I'm afraid the Mayo/Dawson combo should have been evaluated before conference play. Now it would require admitting an error in originally selecting Derrick/Jake and also going against Buzz's consistent fear of putting Freshman in key roles. What chance do you think Buzz is going to do that even if they are better?
Bottom line, with Providence and an improving St. Johns coming up, and a very low probability that Buzz will change minutes significantly we best start praying now for a miracle this week let alone another round of Creighton, 'Nova, X'er, etc.
I hope I am wrong, Buzz makes the changes and they kick some real butt or Derrick/Jake show a new level of play. Unfortunately IMO I think the chances of any of these events occurring are low.
Quote from: brandx on January 29, 2014, 06:43:07 PM
Is it Ners?
Absolutely! I'll wear the crown proudly on this particular topic/debate. No doubt I've earned it. At least 69% of Scoop sees it the same way...that Dawson should be starting over Derrick.
Quote from: Ners on January 29, 2014, 07:04:40 PM
Absolutely! I'll wear the crown proudly on this particular topic/debate. No doubt I've earned it. At least 69% of Scoop sees it the same way...that Dawson should be starting over Derrick.
But the only one who matters....and the only one who can actually make a 100% informed decision does not
Quote from: brandx on January 29, 2014, 06:42:36 PM
It comes down to -- the numbers don't lie.
This backcourt is absolutely brutal on the offensive end of the floor. Probably as bad as any Division 1 team in a major conference that I can remember. Not this year - but historically.
Both these guys should be playing 6-10 minutes a game and never anymore except for foul trouble or injury.
Ners is absolutely correct on this. This isn't a case of 'using' numbers to fit an argument. The numbers are irrefutable. And the team's record reflect what these numbers mean in the context of our team as a whole.
This team will absolutely not make the tournament if out two starting guards continue to rack up these kinds of minutes. The regular season is lost and there is no hope for the conference tournament without Dawson, Mayo and JJJ getting the bulk of the minutes at guard.
But worst of all, this team borders on unwatchable at times with our current lineup.
Any game Derrick and Jake play the bulk of the minutes..... Including tomorrow.... Marquette will lose... Period..,
Quote from: Nevada233 on January 29, 2014, 08:19:26 PM
Any game Derrick and Jake play the bulk of the minutes..... Including tomorrow.... Marquette will lose... Period..,
I'll take that bet. Stakes?
Quote from: Ners on January 29, 2014, 10:36:34 AM
How can you win, when you combine the following in the backcourt? (Guys getting most and 3rd most minutes on the team)
Jake Thomas - Two, made 2pt FGs through 20 games and 552 minutes - or one, two point FG made every 276 minutes or 1 make per 7, full 40 minute games played.
Derrick Wilson - One, 3pt FG made in 587 minutes of play. That translates into 1 make in 14.65 FULL 40 minute games.
I would suspect NEVER in the history of college basketball has there been such a bizarre pairing of players, all the while being given MAX minutes.
Seriously, how can you win with 2 guards who are so incredibly limited in one of the two main components of playing offensive basketball - 2, and 3 point shooting??
But, perhaps its simply a lack of leadership this year...
I don't know but you somehow managed to play the number 4 team in the nation even for four quarters with them in.
Quote from: Marqevans on January 29, 2014, 08:44:31 PM
I don't know but you somehow managed to play the number 4 team in the nation even for four quarters with them in.
LOL - We were down 10 for virtually the entire second half. And, the guy who willed us back into the game, Mayo, can't even get a start on this team or a consistent 30 minutes per game. Furthermore, Nova choked about 5-6 FT's in the last two minutes to even allow for Todd's heroics. It was a miracle we made OT...and...we promptly got dominated in OT...but I guess if we are at the point of celebrating moral victories here...so be it.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 29, 2014, 08:21:14 PM
I'll take that bet. Stakes?
You can send me a inbox message... We'll get into specifics... Ill take that bet.
Just one of those tough years. Our team stats in the Big East place us as mediocre in almost every category except 3pt shooting where we are dead last. 5th or 6th is just about where we deserve at this point. Beating Providence would be a nice win and prove we could be a contender in the BE Tourney.
Quote from: Nevada233 on January 29, 2014, 09:02:52 PM
You can send me a inbox message... We'll get into specifics... Ill take that bet.
We can do it here. You win, I will write a 1000 word post on why John Dawson should have been starting since day 1 and why Derrick Wilson is hot garbage that couldn't start for a D3 team.
I win, meaning we win any game where Derrick and Jake each get 20 or more minutes, and you don't make another negative post about Derrick/Jake for the rest of the season. You can pump Dawson and whoever all you want, but no more negatives.
Interested?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 29, 2014, 09:17:19 PM
We can do it here. You win, I will write a 1000 word post on why John Dawson should have been starting since day 1 and why Derrick Wilson is hot garbage that couldn't start for a D3 team.
I win, meaning we win any game where Derrick and Jake each get 20 or more minutes, and you don't make another negative post about Derrick/Jake for the rest of the season. You can pump Dawson and whoever all you want, but no more negatives.
Interested?
crickets...