1. Re-watched the Villanova game. Two things were very apparent. Buzz got outcoached by Jay in this one and 3pt shooting is perhaps the most important attribute a team can have. Villanova absolutely exploited the MU defense on pick and rolls all game. Simple reason, Jay out-Marquetted, Marquette. Meaning he went very small, knowing full well that Davante and Otule couldn't keep up with smaller players. Buzz would have been better off playing small ball like he used to. Regardless of who earns it in practice or not, at no point should Davante and Chris play together again in their careers. The eye test, +/- stats, and the win loss percentage all show these two shouldn't play together. I don't even care if Otule starts and plays until the first stoppage of play. Oxtule needs to stop.
2. I realize this doesn't fit the narrative around here, but I would love to see Todd Mayo play the point some. Unlike most here, I don't believe Dawson or Derrick should play more than 10-15 min. a game. Todd is a much better overall player than either Derrick or Dawson at this point. I would like to see a lineup of Mayo, Jake, Jamil, Taylor, and Davante. I would also like to see Dawson get some more time at the SG position, at least until JaJuan is able to contribute again. There is no need for Burton, Derrick, Dawson, Otule or Juan to get more than 10 minutes a game IMO. They all have specific skill sets that this team needs, but they should not get significant minutes and should rarely play together. They are just too limited to have more than one of them on the court at the same time.
Playing time I'd like to see
Davante (32 min.) Otule (8 min.)
Jamil (32 min.) STjr (8 min.)
STjr (22 min.) Deonte (10 min.) Mayo (8 min.) Juan (?)
Jake (20 min.) JaJuan (7 min.) Mayo (8 min.) Dawson (5 min.)
Mayo (18 min.) Derrick (11 min.) Dawson (11 min.)
I'm sure I will be torched for questioning Buzz, but these are just some observations I have made. Obviously Buzz has to live with his decisions. We are just fans with opinions. That's what message boards are for; to share information, share opinions and when necessary vent. Try to show some civility.
I agree that Jay outcoached Buzz. I have been advocating a small line up, i.e. no Oxtule, for weeks. The poor pick and roll defense was apparent, and IMO, the single biggest factor in the loss. I'm not sure Todd is the answer at the point. I'm not sure there IS an answer at point. I have said before that Jake and Derrick have a negative synergy. If there was a dynamic PG, Jake would be a beast. If Vander was the starting SG, or some other complete 2, Derrick would be good enough.
Quote from: tower912 on January 28, 2014, 05:20:25 PM
I agree that Jay outcoached Buzz. I have been advocating a small line up, i.e. no Oxtule, for weeks. The poor pick and roll defense was apparent, and IMO, the single biggest factor in the loss. I'm not sure Todd is the answer at the point. I'm not sure there IS an answer at point. I have said before that Jake and Derrick have a negative synergy. If there was a dynamic PG, Jake would be a beast. If Vander was the starting SG, or some other complete 2, Derrick would be good enough.
Are you sure you don't want to list Buzz's post season successes here? :P
I agree with most of what you said, but Vander is not here and he isn't coming back. I think the best overall players need to play and the players with limitations should play in small increments and rarely together.
As far as Jake goes, Buzz needs to run more sets for him or not play him. He is a very solid shooter and decent defender, but he is rarely put in position to be successful, his guy never leaves him to double Davante and he can't beat anyone off the dribble. Buzz needs to find more ways to get Jake shots.
Davante went for 29 and 13. Nova never double teamed him during the game. Nova could have lost that game and if so, Nova fans would be saying that Buzz outcoached Wright because Wright never doubled down on DG.
Could be that the players didn't execute the defensive game plan instituted by the coach.
Quote from: IrwinFletcher on January 28, 2014, 05:41:36 PM
Davante went for 29 and 13. Nova never double teamed him during the game. Nova could have lost that game and if so, Nova fans would be saying that Buzz outcoached Wright because Wright never doubled down on DG.
Could be that the players didn't execute the defensive game plan instituted by the coach.
So all the players on the entire roster didn't execute the game plan? Because nobody on the entire roster had a good defensive game, and it was mostly due to Buzz putting them in tough positions, specifically Davante and Otule at the top of the key in pick and roll situations against much quicker players.
Usually there are three ways of defensive game planning
1. Take away the opposing teams best player and make the rest of the team beat you....What most teams try to do against MU by doubling Davante
2. Allow the best player to have his day but stop everyone else........What Jay Wright did
3. Try to play team defense and stop everyone......What Buzz did
Quote from: BenCat12 on January 28, 2014, 05:25:47 PM
Are you sure you don't want to list Buzz's post season successes here? :P
I agree with most of what you said, but Vander is not here and he isn't coming back. I think the best overall players need to play and the players with limitations should play in small increments and rarely together.
As far as Jake goes, Buzz needs to run more sets for him or not play him. He is a very solid shooter and decent defender, but he is rarely put in position to be successful, his guy never leaves him to double Davante and he can't beat anyone off the dribble. Buzz needs to find more ways to get Jake shots.
Must you? I am not willing to throw him under the bus, advocate firing him or anything like that. He didn't suddenly become stupid or a bad coach. This is a frustrating season. Buzz called it in advance and we didn't listen. Saturday, MU's pick and roll defense was lousy. Jay had a clear plan for every different defense MU was going to employ against it. But even then, if the MU defenders had simply executed, MU still could have won.
Quote from: BenCat12 on January 28, 2014, 05:08:45 PM
1. Re-watched the Villanova game. Two things were very apparent. Buzz got outcoached by Jay in this one and 3pt shooting is perhaps the most important attribute a team can have. Villanova absolutely exploited the MU defense on pick and rolls all game. Simple reason, Jay out-Marquetted, Marquette. Meaning he went very small, knowing full well that Davante and Otule couldn't keep up with smaller players. Buzz would have been better off playing small ball like he used to. Regardless of who earns it in practice or not, at no point should Davante and Chris play together again in their careers. The eye test, +/- stats, and the win loss percentage all show these two shouldn't play together. I don't even care if Otule starts and plays until the first stoppage of play. Oxtule needs to stop.
2. I realize this doesn't fit the narrative around here, but I would love to see Todd Mayo play the point some. Unlike most here, I don't believe Dawson or Derrick should play more than 10-15 min. a game. Todd is a much better overall player than either Derrick or Dawson at this point. I would like to see a lineup of Mayo, Jake, Jamil, Taylor, and Davante. I would also like to see Dawson get some more time at the SG position, at least until JaJuan is able to contribute again. There is no need for Burton, Derrick, Dawson, Otule or Juan to get more than 10 minutes a game IMO. They all have specific skill sets that this team needs, but they should not get significant minutes and should rarely play together. They are just too limited to have more than one of them on the court at the same time.
Playing time I'd like to see
Davante (32 min.) Otule (8 min.)
Jamil (32 min.) STjr (8 min.)
STjr (22 min.) Deonte (10 min.) Mayo (8 min.) Juan (?)
Jake (20 min.) JaJuan (7 min.) Mayo (8 min.) Dawson (5 min.)
Mayo (18 min.) Derrick (11 min.) Dawson (11 min.)
I'm sure I will be torched for questioning Buzz, but these are just some observations I have made. Obviously Buzz has to live with his decisions. We are just fans with opinions. That's what message boards are for; to share information, share opinions and when necessary vent. Try to show some civility.
I hate the term out coached. If MU wins the game in OT than somehow he would not have been out coached?
Quote from: tower912 on January 28, 2014, 06:13:23 PM
Must you? I am not willing to throw him under the bus, advocate firing him or anything like that. He didn't suddenly become stupid or a bad coach. This is a frustrating season. Buzz called it in advance and we didn't listen. Saturday, MU's pick and roll defense was lousy. Jay had a clear plan for every different defense MU was going to employ against it. But even then, if the MU defenders had simply executed, MU still could have won.
Why so sensitive? It was a joke. I agree with what you said.....I don't think Buzz is stupid or an idiot or lousy and I don't want to see him leave, no matter what. He just did a poor job Saturday of making adjustments.
Last year, we had 3 guys who could play offense and defense (Vander, Jamil, Lockett). This year we have one. No matter the combinations there are glaring weaknesses.
Quote from: KenoshaWarrior on January 28, 2014, 06:13:50 PM
I hate the term out coached. If MU wins the game in OT than somehow he would not have been out coached?
wrong, sometimes a team can be outcoached and still have enough talent to win. Coaching isn't about wins and losses it is about performance, improvement, strategy and putting players in a position to be successful. We could lose by 15 in regulation and Buzz could still out coach the opposition, if the opposition had enough talent. Coaching, to me, is putting players in a position to be successful. Buzz is struggling with that this season, IMO.
Quote from: BenCat12 on January 28, 2014, 05:08:45 PM
1. Re-watched the Villanova game. Two things were very apparent. Buzz got outcoached by Jay in this one and 3pt shooting is perhaps the most important attribute a team can have. Villanova absolutely exploited the MU defense on pick and rolls all game. Simple reason, Jay out-Marquetted, Marquette. Meaning he went very small, knowing full well that Davante and Otule couldn't keep up with smaller players. Buzz would have been better off playing small ball like he used to. Regardless of who earns it in practice or not, at no point should Davante and Chris play together again in their careers. The eye test, +/- stats, and the win loss percentage all show these two shouldn't play together. I don't even care if Otule starts and plays until the first stoppage of play. Oxtule needs to stop.
I'm always curious about this. I've been saying that I've wanted Buzz to play smaller and quicker this season anyway. But whenever hearing analysts discuss adjustments I get confused. Hypothetical scenario: If one team goes small and one team goes big, why is either team supposed to adjust? If the smaller team is being successful on offense because of speed/outside shooting, won't the bigger team be successful because of inside play/rebounding? If the teams are playing equal, and being equally successful, then why does either have to change? Don't you just hope your size or speed can overcome the other team somehow on the defensive end? In my view on the Nova game, I don't blame Buzz for staying big. What is more likely: Davante, not being doubled, to miss inside shots against smaller players or Nova guards to miss outside 3s? If anything, I'd say it was Jay's biggest mistake not to double the post and really force us into problems.
Yeah...But Buzz as stated many times....Speed beats Size every time.....so why do we continue to march out our "size" line-up.
When you say Jay Wright "went small" you are implying that he did this as a gametime or in game coaching maneuver--he didn't. He almost always 'goes small'. He has implemented the 4 guard offense for a long time now--for the reasons that you are speaking of....mismatches. In that sense he deserves credit, but not exclusively or specifically in this game.
When GTIII or Bo Ryan hold the ball late in the shot clock.....late in the game to get the seperation on a backdoor cut or a big shooting the 3......its the implementation of their approach/gameplan, rarely an in game decision. When Wisky's bigs are making 3s late in the game, late in the shot clock cuz he(Bo) knows that most bigs cant get out and defend after 30 sec of D....he deserves credit for the execution of the approach.....but to say he outcoached Izzo or others because the ball went in is a disservice to Bo and Izzo in this example.
Buzz has struggled with defining this lineup all year, it that sense he is vulnerable to be considerded to have been 'outcoached'.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 28, 2014, 06:29:20 PM
Last year, we had 3 guys who could play offense and defense (Vander, Jamil, Lockett). This year we have one. No matter the combinations there are glaring weaknesses.
And that one is far too inconsistent to be relied upon.
Wait, are we talking about about Jamil or Todd?
Quote from: mug644 on January 28, 2014, 07:07:32 PM
And that one is far too inconsistent to be relied upon.
Wait, are we talking about about Jamil or Todd?
Jamil - and you're right, he's way too inconsistent. I hope Todd can become the second, but other than the very big 3 at Georgetown he's been o no show on the road.
Quote from: BenCat12 on January 28, 2014, 06:30:49 PM
wrong, sometimes a team can be outcoached and still have enough talent to win. Coaching isn't about wins and losses it is about performance, improvement, strategy and putting players in a position to be successful. We could lose by 15 in regulation and Buzz could still out coach the opposition, if the opposition had enough talent. Coaching, to me, is putting players in a position to be successful. Buzz is struggling with that this season, IMO.
Yea but you would never have mentioned it if we won. Winning makes everyone a genius.
I think you guys are all a little crazy. MU went to OT with the #4 team in the country and we suck? They made countless comebacks and played heroically at times. A team with a plethora of great three point shooters is a difficult task for even the most stalwart defensive team.
Quote from: patso on January 28, 2014, 08:01:30 PM
I think you guys are all a little crazy. MU went to OT with the #4 team in the country and we suck? They made countless comebacks and played heroically at times. A team with a plethora of great three point shooters is a difficult task for even the most stalwart defensive team.
Reality has warped a bit around here lately.
Quote from: KenoshaWarrior on January 28, 2014, 07:42:08 PM
Yea but you would never have mentioned it if we won. Winning makes everyone a genius.
Wrong again. When you are a coach, or have coached, you worry more about how you played, how you are improving and if you put players in a position to be successful, rather than if you won or not. There are a lot of circumstances that go into "winning." To prove my point, I was more upset with my teams when we beat a lousy team, by a small margin and didn't perform well, than I was when we lost to a superior team, but played our best. A coaches mindset is far different than a player or fan.
As for me only mentioning it because we lost, that is probably true. But only because I would get ripped to shreds if I were to criticize a team that just won, especially if they just beat the 4th ranked team in the country. But if you want my criticisms after the next win, Ill be happy to give it ;D
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 28, 2014, 07:28:47 PM
Jamil - and you're right, he's way too inconsistent. I hope Todd can become the second, but other than the very big 3 at Georgetown he's been o no show on the road.
That's what I figured you were thinking.
To me, that has been the real challenge this year...the terrible combination of semi-skilled players (that is, players that are strong in one or two areas, but have notable weaknesses in other key areas) and players being tremendously inconsistent game to game. While unsatisfied with the results of the season, I actually think this may be one of Buzz's toughest years; he's trying to balance so much. With this lens, I can see why he relies so much (too much?) on Jake (and Derrick to a lesser degree). Jake is 'safe' as he has reliable skills even if they are not to the level we really need, while other players are so high-risk/high-reward...and damn inconsistent. But if Jamil would just be able to step up and be relied upon, man, would that be helpful.
Just thinking about it gets me stressed and frustrated. Imagine Buzz's life these days!
Quote from: BenCat12 on January 28, 2014, 08:04:54 PM
Wrong again. When you are a coach, or have coached, you worry more about how you played, how you are improving and if you put players in a position to be successful, rather than if you won or not. There are a lot of circumstances that go into "winning." To prove my point, I was more upset with my teams when we beat a lousy team, by a small margin and didn't perform well, than I was when we lost to a superior team, but played our best. A coaches mindset is far different than a player or fan.
As for me only mentioning it because we lost, that is probably true. But only because I would get ripped to shreds if I were to criticize a team that just won, especially if they just beat the 4th ranked team in the country. But if you want my criticisms after the next win, Ill be happy to give it ;D
Well I look forward to your critique seeing that you probably coach St John Vianney in the Don Bosco League and Buzz coaches major DI. You should email buzz your critique.
Honestly I'm sure the above is not true and that you are a good coach. Just needed a way to work Don Bosco league into a post
Quote from: mug644 on January 28, 2014, 08:06:59 PM
That's what I figured you were thinking.
To me, that has been the real challenge this year...the terrible combination of semi-skilled players (that is, players that are strong in one or two areas, but have notable weaknesses in other key areas) and players being tremendously inconsistent game to game. While unsatisfied with the results of the season, I actually think this may be one of Buzz's toughest years; he's trying to balance so much. With this lens, I can see why he relies so much (too much?) on Jake (and Derrick to a lesser degree). Jake is 'safe' as he has reliable skills even if they are not to the level we really need, while other players are so high-risk/high-reward...and damn inconsistent. But if Jamil would just be able to step up and be relied upon, man, would that be helpful.
Just thinking about it gets me stressed and frustrated. Imagine Buzz's life these days!
We'll put, Mug.
Quote from: mug644 on January 28, 2014, 07:07:32 PM
And that one is far too inconsistent to be relied upon.
Wait, are we talking about about Jamil or Todd?
Neither Jamil or Todd play both ends of the floor well. Both terribly inconsistent and Jamil is a terrible defender.
Quote from: mug644 on January 28, 2014, 08:06:59 PM
That's what I figured you were thinking.
To me, that has been the real challenge this year...the terrible combination of semi-skilled players (that is, players that are strong in one or two areas, but have notable weaknesses in other key areas) and players being tremendously inconsistent game to game. While unsatisfied with the results of the season, I actually think this may be one of Buzz's toughest years; he's trying to balance so much. With this lens, I can see why he relies so much (too much?) on Jake (and Derrick to a lesser degree). Jake is 'safe' as he has reliable skills even if they are not to the level we really need, while other players are so high-risk/high-reward...and damn inconsistent. But if Jamil would just be able to step up and be relied upon, man, would that be helpful.
Just thinking about it gets me stressed and frustrated. Imagine Buzz's life these days!
I think Jamil *has* been consistent. He has put together a solid string of games since the foul troubles at Xavier. I think the problem with him is that the Jamil Wilson that we all dreamed about six years ago isn't the Jamil Wilson of today. IMO his lack of quickness prevents him from being a slasher in the Matthews or Butler mold, which he could use to set up his shot. And it prevents him from being a top notch defender.
He is who he is. A smart player, someone you want on the floor, tremendous leaper...but not the player we hoped he would be.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on January 29, 2014, 09:25:07 AM
I think Jamil *has* been consistent. He has put together a solid string of games since the foul troubles at Xavier. I think the problem with him is that the Jamil Wilson that we all dreamed about six years ago isn't the Jamil Wilson of today. IMO his lack of quickness prevents him from being a slasher in the Matthews or Butler mold, which he could use to set up his shot. And it prevents him from being a top notch defender.
He is who he is. A smart player, someone you want on the floor, tremendous leaper...but not the player we hoped he would be.
Fair enough, at least since the Xavier game. I suppose the frustration many of us feel is heightened by the reality that Jamil is "not the player we hoped he would be." On a team of lesser skills and greater inconsistency, we all wanted him to be both high performing AND steady/reliable. He's really not been both (or either even), for the greater part of the season.
Anyway, to me the disappointment about the season thus far is not with Jamil per se, but simply with the fact that the pieces have not come together, and despite Buzz's best efforts, exploitable gaps appear in each and every game. I still believe in the potential of this team, but there is little to indicate that all of the pieces will come together for the rest of the season, or even for any one game.
Agreed mug. I don't think this team has jelled real well. But I also think it's talent was a little overrated (Jamil) and too inexperienced (freshman) to make the difference some people thought it would.
Quote from: mug644 on January 28, 2014, 08:06:59 PM
That's what I figured you were thinking.
To me, that has been the real challenge this year...the terrible combination of semi-skilled players (that is, players that are strong in one or two areas, but have notable weaknesses in other key areas) and players being tremendously inconsistent game to game. While unsatisfied with the results of the season, I actually think this may be one of Buzz's toughest years; he's trying to balance so much. With this lens, I can see why he relies so much (too much?) on Jake (and Derrick to a lesser degree). Jake is 'safe' as he has reliable skills even if they are not to the level we really need, while other players are so high-risk/high-reward...and damn inconsistent. But if Jamil would just be able to step up and be relied upon, man, would that be helpful.
You cannot be consistent when getting inconsistent playing time. Mayo should have been, and should be a 30+ minute per game player every game. Oxtule needs to be permanently retired. Rotation should have been shortened to 8.5 players - Dawson, Derrick, Jake, Mayo, Jamil, Steve, Gardner, Burton, (JJJ) as the 9th man. Juan and Otule consistently ride bench unless a very favorable defensive purpose for Otule.
Just thinking about it gets me stressed and frustrated. Imagine Buzz's life these days!
Quote from: Ners on January 29, 2014, 10:20:05 AM
You cannot be consistent when getting inconsistent playing time. Mayo should have been, and should be a 30+ minute per game player every game. Oxtule needs to be permanently retired. Rotation should have been shortened to 8.5 players - Dawson, Derrick, Jake, Mayo, Jamil, Steve, Gardner, Burton, (JJJ) as the 9th man. Juan and Otule consistently ride bench unless a very favorable defensive purpose for Otule.
On the flip side of your comment, I think that the numbers for Gardner, Jake, Jamil and Derrick all indicate that consistent playing time do not necessarily lead to consistent output. That said, I don't disagree with your implication that players have had a tough time finding their 'groove' (and maybe even their ultimate role on the team) this season.