MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: 82fanatic on January 18, 2014, 07:10:09 PM
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The first 27 minute Derrick played with confidence, drove and scored. Was a constant threat the defense had to deal with. Mu looked decent!
Then with 14 minutes to go, the old Derrick returns, play conservative, don't drive. Hold the ball until no time left. Mu looks inept!
Several times in the last 14 minutes I see lanes Derrick could drive as he did the first 14 minutes. But Derrick refuses and passes out.
It's like Jake I think. With Jake.... If you don't launch, your on the bench. With Derrick. You don't drive and shoot or dish, you sit.
May hurt for a while(no alternative) but he would get the message and start acting!!!
Crazy?
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Jesus...Derrick is MU's most consistent player today and we have a handful of threads crucifying him. Seriously, what the f*ck do you want from him?
He's making Vander's whipping boy status look mild in comparison.
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Part of it has to do with being tired as he plays to many minutes. However, before you criticise him he was our leading scorer in the second half and the second half including overtime. This loss does not rest with Derrick. When we needed to score Jamil Wilson settled for the easy shot instead of working for a better shot. Gardner only had 4 points in second half, Jamil Wilson had four points while Derrick had 7. Our bench had no points until overtime.
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Well stated bilsu.
And it's not like it is his fault that he is playing so many minutes. Someone...anyone...needs to step up and get Derrick off the floor. And hey, if he's so bad that should be fairly easy to do right?
But that isn't happening.
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Jesus...Derrick is MU's most consistent player today and we have a handful of threads crucifying him. Seriously, what the f*ck do you want from him?
He's making Vander's whipping boy status look mild in comparison.
i want him on the bench for the entire game. obviously buzz feels difference, but he didn't do crap to help the team today. more turnovers than assists, and it's impossible to look at a stat line and draw anything from it because the other 4 players on the court with d. wilson are playing 4 on 5 on the offensive end. he also got scored on twice late in the game, again. junior would have had 40 a night if teams would have played him the way they play d. wilson, and junior was nothing special. we have a pg that other teams shoot over, that can't make a free-throw, and that can't hit an open three. i counted 6 for 11 shooting within the paint, 0-2 outside the paint. he's shooting under 50% without anyone guarding him. i wish every player on MU had his demeanor, work ethic, attitude, etc. but he's simply not getting it done. MU will go as he goes if buzz continues to play him.
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Part of it has to do with being tired as he plays to many minutes. However, before you criticise him he was our leading scorer in the second half and the second half including overtime. This loss does not rest with Derrick. When we needed to score Jamil Wilson settled for the easy shot instead of working for a better shot. Gardner only had 4 points in second half, Jamil Wilson had four points while Derrick had 7. Our bench had no points until overtime.
jamil and davante were doubled by d. wilson's defender all night long. as far as working for a better shot...hard to do when there's an extra defender sitting in the lane all season. why do you think d. wilson isn't picking up a bunch of assists throwing it into DG...they can't even play him on the same side as DG anymore.
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i want him on the bench for the entire game. obviously buzz feels difference, but he didn't do crap to help the team today.
Hey, the good news is that Chris Columbo has no longer said the dumbest thing on Scoop that I have read today.
Derrick Wilson was the most consistent, hardest working player on both ends the floor today. If he repeats that performance, Marquette would be a good team. But hey, let's keep blaming him instead of our "shooting" guards who can't shoot...our supposed NBA quality player who disappeared for another half...and our bench for scoring a grand total of four points. (All in garbage time...)
This sh*t is unreal....
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jamil and davante were doubled by d. wilson's defender all night long.
No. That is absolutely NOT what happened in the second half. I swear, people are simply making stuff up at this point. Davante's guy was fronting him the entire second half...he barely saw the ball because we didn't swing it quick enough.
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This sh*t is unreal....
In all fairness, having shooting guards that can't shoot, a point guard that can't shoot, and a supposed "most talented player" that fades into the ether can bring out the crazy.
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The first 27 minute Derrick played with confidence, drove and scored. Was a constant threat the defense had to deal with. Mu looked decent!
Then with 14 minutes to go, the old Derrick returns, play conservative, don't drive. Hold the ball until no time left. Mu looks inept!
Several times in the last 14 minutes I see lanes Derrick could drive as he did the first 14 minutes. But Derrick refuses and passes out.
It's like Jake I think. With Jake.... If you don't launch, your on the bench. With Derrick. You don't drive and shoot or dish, you sit.
May hurt for a while(no alternative) but he would get the message and start acting!!!
Crazy?
Butler also was more aggressive defensively that put us out of rhythm. As others have stated D. Wilson was our best player in both halves today. Those criticizing him are being ridiculous. Frankly, right now most of the board is just nuts right now. Butler is not a bad team. They took Nova and Okla St. to overtime.
We played like crap in the 2nd half, couldn't make a shot. Worst case scenario we don't make the tournament this year and we get to watch an entire season of basketball anyway. I think some fans have been spoiled by recent success. Very few teams can maintain a high level of play every year.
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Derrick played far and away his most aggressive basketball game this season today, and what I feel was his best game of the year. Of course 5 turnovers came with it - because he didn't play the same conservative brand of ball he's played all year.
Having said that, pretty confident the scouting report for MU is: Don't let Gardner or Wilson beat us, we can live with Derrick Wilson shooting from the perimeter, and even from the paint - so long as Gardner and Wilson don't abuse us.
I still feel Derrick has major limitations as a PG, and wish Buzz would give Dawson legit stints of run, as even with Derrick playing well - this team lost to a very average Butler team. The fact Derrick has zero offensive game from outside the paint, really makes life hell for Jamil, Davante, Jake and Todd.
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Guard play in general, struggled again.
Mayo had what, zero points in regulation and didn't score until the OT? A few bad turnovers. Jake was very cold from deep, 1-8.
Derrick actually had 13 points and a few assists. The team overall had 6 assists, and that is a recipe for a loss.
We basically went with a 6 man rotation today and it didn't work for the win.
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The first 27 minute Derrick played with confidence, drove and scored. Was a constant threat the defense had to deal with. Mu looked decent!
Then with 14 minutes to go, the old Derrick returns, play conservative, don't drive. Hold the ball until no time left. Mu looks inept!
Several times in the last 14 minutes I see lanes Derrick could drive as he did the first 14 minutes. But Derrick refuses and passes out.
It's like Jake I think. With Jake.... If you don't launch, your on the bench. With Derrick. You don't drive and shoot or dish, you sit.
May hurt for a while(no alternative) but he would get the message and start acting!!!
Crazy?
Derrick had a good first half, but he still hinders the inside game big time. Did you see the game? They were packing it in big time to make life miserable for the Ox. He also had 4 or 5 TO's
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Jesus...Derrick is MU's most consistent player today and we have a handful of threads crucifying him. Seriously, what the f*ck do you want from him?
He's making Vander's whipping boy status look mild in comparison.
Derrick is killing the inside game. Nobody gets within 8 feet of him on the perimeter. Surely you can see that?
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Jesus...Derrick is MU's most consistent player today and we have a handful of threads crucifying him. Seriously, what the f*ck do you want from him?
He's making Vander's whipping boy status look mild in comparison.
I guess I did not make my point well. What I meant was I want Derrick playing like he did in the first 26 minutes. I thought he played like he did in Madison the first time. We need him to play like that. If he refuses, then he sits, if he embraces it with confidence, we are suddenly a good team. If he refuses, the season is a waste, train the younger guys for next year. Derricks choice!
Actually meaning to compliment him. He played like we need him to for 26 minutes!!!!!
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Derrick is nowhere near being this team's biggest problem.
We have shooters who can't shoot, seniors who can't lead...and we're worrying about the one guy who plays great defense, protects the ball...and is actually starting to hit some baskets? Jeez...he had the best shooting percentage on the team today...and that includes Davante and Chris.
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Jesus...Derrick is MU's most consistent player today and we have a handful of threads crucifying him. Seriously, what the f*ck do you want from him?
He's making Vander's whipping boy status look mild in comparison.
who r u - his f**kin dad?
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Derrick is nowhere near being this team's biggest problem.
We have shooters who can't shoot, seniors who can't lead...and we're worrying about the one guy who plays great defense, protects the ball...and is actually starting to hit some baskets? Jeez...he had the best shooting percentage on the team today...and that includes Davante and Chris.
Sorry Gooo - Derrick is a very big part of what ails this team - because he plays the most important position on the basketball court, point guard. And he is very challenged offensively from the perimeter and the FT line. He's a very good defender - that is his 1 high major skill. But as far as offensive and playmaking ability, he's a low major PG.
I did like Derrick a lot better today, because he was a lot more aggressive and tried to force tempo, and put pressure on the defense. Of course, he also had 5 turnovers as a result, but it was a step in the right direction. Now, if Derrick consistently scores 10 ppg on 40+% shooting, and limits his turnovers to 2 per game...I'll be a lot happier - yet my biggest beef, I still don't think will be alleviated - Derrick doesn't make the guys around him better...which is what your PG HAS to be able to do..
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who r u - his f**kin dad?
No, he's the assistant coach!
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No. That is absolutely NOT what happened in the second half. I swear, people are simply making stuff up at this point. Davante's guy was fronting him the entire second half...he barely saw the ball because we didn't swing it quick enough.
My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who saw Derrick pass out at 31 Flavors last night!
I admire the determination, Sultan, but why even bother? The stupid are going to continue to post stupid things.
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My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who saw Derrick pass out at 31 Flavors last night!
I admire the determination, Sultan, but why even bother? The stupid are going to continue to post stupid things.
All anyone is posting is their opinion. Nothing more. You seem to be suggesting that Sultan has fact, unlike the others. Or intelligence, unlike the others. Please. People are entitled to post their views. Just because you disagree doesn't make them "stupid."
People who try to dictate the conversation are small, silly, and pathetic in a very real way. Grow up.
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All anyone is posting is their opinion. Nothing more. You seem to be suggesting that Sultan has fact, unlike the others. Or intelligence, unlike the others. Please. People are entitled to post their views. Just because you disagree doesn't make them "stupid."
People who try to dictate the conversation are small, silly, and pathetic in a very real way. Grow up.
Irony.
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Irony.
Said the smallest of the small. Indeed. Irony. Grow up.
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Sorry Gooo - Derrick is a very big part of what ails this team - because he plays the most important position on the basketball court, point guard. And he is very challenged offensively from the perimeter and the FT line. He's a very good defender - that is his 1 high major skill. But as far as offensive and playmaking ability, he's a low major PG.
I did like Derrick a lot better today, because he was a lot more aggressive and tried to force tempo, and put pressure on the defense. Of course, he also had 5 turnovers as a result, but it was a step in the right direction. Now, if Derrick consistently scores 10 ppg on 40+% shooting, and limits his turnovers to 2 per game...I'll be a lot happier - yet my biggest beef, I still don't think will be alleviated - Derrick doesn't make the guys around him better...which is what your PG HAS to be able to do..
Guess we're going to have to agree to disagree.
I agree that Derrick has offensive limitations, but his offensive limitations don't prevent Todd, Jake or Jamil from making open jumpers. They don't force Davante to shoot 20-foot set shots. And they don't force Davante and Jamil to lose their cool.
Derrick did his job today. If we could say that about any one of Jake, Todd, Jamil or Chris, we'd be celebrating our first real road win.
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All anyone is posting is their opinion. Nothing more. You seem to be suggesting that Sultan has fact, unlike the others. Or intelligence, unlike the others. Please. People are entitled to post their views. Just because you disagree doesn't make them "stupid."
People who try to dictate the conversation are small, silly, and pathetic in a very real way. Grow up.
(http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/frontal-cortex/Intelligence-Stvenson.jpg)
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Said the smallest of the small. Indeed. Irony. Grow up.
More irony.
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Guess we're going to have to agree to disagree.
I agree that Derrick has offensive limitations, but his offensive limitations don't prevent Todd, Jake or Jamil from making open jumpers. They don't force Davante to shoot 20-foot set shots. And they don't force Davante and Jamil to lose their cool.
Derrick did his job today. If we could say that about any one of Jake, Todd, Jamil or Chris, we'd be celebrating our first real road win.
I thought Jake, Todd, Jamil and Chris were awful today. Thought Derrick played his best game of the year too. And we still lost - to a very average Butler team. Gardner and Jamil have regressed. Todd seems to be the same player as last year. Why no progression in Todd's case, and actual regression in the case of Jamil and Gardner?
I challenge you to watch virtually any Top 25 team, and watch their PG. Their PG will look so radically different from Derrick, perhaps that will bring it in to shape. The single most important aspect a PG can bring to his team, is the ability to make the players around him better. In my view, Derrick greatly hampers those around him, due to his offensive limitations. Now, it very well could be that rignt NOW Dawson wouldn't do any better - yet Buzz has tried all kinds of lineup hijinks, (other than greatly reducing Derrick and Jake's minutes), and we continue to scuffle. Playing Otule and Ox together aint the answer either! Need more Burton, more Mayo, more Dawson - and less Derrick, Jake, and Otule in order to improve.
But, Buzz loves Otule and Derrick...there his guys on this year's team, so I doubt we'll see much change...including our winning percentage. So, I'd rather see some radical changes made, to see if it produces radically different results - and in the process, you get some valuable game experience for the future of your program..
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(http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/frontal-cortex/Intelligence-Stvenson.jpg)
Awesome.
Cue keefe brag points in 3....2....1....
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More irony.
"I know you are but what am I?"
Grow the f uck up
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"I know you are but what am I?"
Grow the f uck up
Still more irony.
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Still more irony.
Given Keefe's track record and accomplishments in life - pretty sure maturity isn't lacking on his part. It's quite evident to most non-biased around here - Keefe is a highly intelligent, and accomplished individual. His below point was spot on....
All anyone is posting is their opinion. Nothing more. You seem to be suggesting that Sultan has fact, unlike the others. Or intelligence, unlike the others. Please. People are entitled to post their views. Just because you disagree doesn't make them "stupid."
People who try to dictate the conversation are small, silly, and pathetic in a very real way. Grow up.
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Given Keefe's track record and accomplishments in life - pretty sure maturity isn't lacking on his part. It's quite evident to most non-biased around here - Keefe is a highly intelligent, and accomplished individual.
Yep. Just ask him.
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When Derrick scored with 16:15 left to put us up 40-28, I turned to my wife and said he and Davante -- who looked very into the game up to that point -- were the stars of the game. Derrick was especially impressive in that he not only was having one of his best offensive games but also was shutting down Dunham.
But then everything changed. Butler adjusted its defense, stopped playing Davante 1-on-1. Started fronting him and, when necessary, bringing a second defender into the low post. And Derrick suddenly had no lanes. And Marquette started milking the clock down to the final seconds -- seemingly unintentionally, just couldn't adapt to Butler's increased defensive pressure. All too often, the ball was in Derrick's hands when the clock was ticking down ... and even Derrick's biggest defenders on Scoop and elsewhere know he is not the best guy to have the ball in a score-or-else situation.
It's not Derrick's fault he played 40 minutes, but he certainly seemed to wear down as the game went on. Dunham started putting the ball on the floor and driving around him and also got a couple open looks from the outside. So not only was Derrick having trouble on O, he no longer was the defensive stopper.
We had a 40-28 lead with 16:15 to go. Eleven minutes later, the score was tied at 44. Four points in 11 freakin' minutes, and Derrick was the floor leader almost that entire time. A true high-major PG does something during a stretch like that to create for himself and for others; ours simply helps the opposing defense play 5-on-4.
So we saw Best of Derrick and also what some might call Typical Derrick, both for long stretches in the same game.
Having said all that, Thomas, Mayo and Otule were brutal the entire game, Jamil as usual disappeared for minutes on end, Gardner faded, Dawson brought absolutely nothing when given the chance and Buzz was outcoached in the second half.
Had even a couple guys stepped up and made a couple open jumpers, we'd have won and there's a decent chance that Derrick would have been the Stud of the Game.
But we lost, and it's certainly acceptable to criticize Derrick and pretty much everybody else involved in that travesty.
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Derrick played far and away his most aggressive basketball game this season today, and what I feel was his best game of the year. Of course 5 turnovers came with it - because he didn't play the same conservative brand of ball he's played all year.
Having said that, pretty confident the scouting report for MU is: Don't let Gardner or Wilson beat us, we can live with Derrick Wilson shooting from the perimeter, and even from the paint - so long as Gardner and Wilson don't abuse us.
I still feel Derrick has major limitations as a PG, and wish Buzz would give Dawson legit stints of run, as even with Derrick playing well - this team lost to a very average Butler team. The fact Derrick has zero offensive game from outside the paint, really makes life hell for Jamil, Davante, Jake and Todd.
Derrick played 40 minutes tonite.. hes returning as a senior too.. you can forget about seeing Dawson on the floor for anything other than an 1 minute breather for derrick... until he graduates or dawson goes to another school.. this is Derricks team win lose or lose some more.....
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Lose with Derrick as a starter or lose with Derrick on the bench.
Personally, I prefer the latter. Derrick, though defensively tough, has no offensive nor cannot set up his man. Both negatives when it comes to running a team.
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When Derrick scored with 16:15 left to put us up 40-28, I turned to my wife and said he and Davante -- who looked very into the game up to that point -- were the stars of the game. Derrick was especially impressive in that he not only was having one of his best offensive games but also was shutting down Dunham.
But then everything changed. Butler adjusted its defense, stopped playing Davante 1-on-1. Started fronting him and, when necessary, bringing a second defender into the low post. And Derrick suddenly had no lanes. And Marquette started milking the clock down to the final seconds -- seemingly unintentionally, just couldn't adapt to Butler's increased defensive pressure. All too often, the ball was in Derrick's hands when the clock was ticking down ... and even Derrick's biggest defenders on Scoop and elsewhere know he is not the best guy to have the ball in a score-or-else situation.
It's not Derrick's fault he played 40 minutes, but he certainly seemed to wear down as the game went on. Dunham started putting the ball on the floor and driving around him and also got a couple open looks from the outside. So not only was Derrick having trouble on O, he no longer was the defensive stopper.
We had a 40-28 lead with 16:15 to go. Eleven minutes later, the score was tied at 44. Four points in 11 freakin' minutes, and Derrick was the floor leader almost that entire time. A true high-major PG does something during a stretch like that to create for himself and for others; ours simply helps the opposing defense play 5-on-4.
So we saw Best of Derrick and also what some might call Typical Derrick, both for long stretches in the same game.
Having said all that, Thomas, Mayo and Otule were brutal the entire game, Jamil as usual disappeared for minutes on end, Gardner faded, Dawson brought absolutely nothing when given the chance and Buzz was outcoached in the second half.
Had even a couple guys stepped up and made a couple open jumpers, we'd have won and there's a decent chance that Derrick would have been the Stud of the Game.
But we lost, and it's certainly acceptable to criticize Derrick and pretty much everybody else involved in that travesty.
Didn't watch the game, so this is an honest question. What adjustments did the coaches make during the stretch you describe above? How many time outs did they call? Did they just try the usual "play through it" strategy that Buzz seems to prefer?
If what we are doing isn't working, it is the coaching staff's responsibility to make adjustments...whether in personnel or approach. If they did and the players didn't execute, fine, blame Derrick all you want. If they didn't make adjustments or those adjustments they did make didn't work, then blame should rest squarely with them.
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I challenge you to watch virtually any Top 25 team, and watch their PG. Their PG will look so radically different from Derrick, perhaps that will bring it in to shape. The single most important aspect a PG can bring to his team, is the ability to make the players around him better.
Yep - watched UWGB and Kiefer Sykes on Friday - made watching our PG play laughable/depressing. And yes, even with Derrick had his best game of his career yesterday.
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Didn't watch the game, so this is an honest question. What adjustments did the coaches make during the stretch you describe above? How many time outs did they call? Did they just try the usual "play through it" strategy that Buzz seems to prefer?
If what we are doing isn't working, it is the coaching staff's responsibility to make adjustments...whether in personnel or approach. If they did and the players didn't execute, fine, blame Derrick all you want. If they didn't make adjustments or those adjustments they did make didn't work, then blame should rest squarely with them.
Since Buzz seems uber reluctant to send Derrick to the bench for 20+ minutes a game - it's Buzz's problem to continue to try to fix. He's tried a number of "adjustments" already - none of which work. Buzz's stubbornness at this point is costing the team. You simply CANNOT have your starting back court, being the team's two WORST net negative contributors to the team, who also get the most, and 2nd most minutes.
Until the "adjustment" is made to send Derrick and Jake to the bench for 20+ minutes a game - nothing is going to change. We are playing 5 on 4 with Derrick out there. Buzz knows it, has said it, yet refuses to do anything about it. It isn't Derrick's fault - it's not like he's going to say sorry Buzz - bench me for 20 minutes per game. Taking a time out in the middle of a run as you suggest, isn't going to fix the problem. We've had 18 games to analyze the results under Derrick's direction - we are 10-8 with NO good wins.
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I'm not exactly sure what options you think Buzz has. Dawson is worse than Derrick. Mayo is wildly inconsistent but still gets 20+ mpg. JJJ was hurt, but hasn't shown much in games against decent teams. Duane is redshirting.
So that leaves....what options exactly?
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I'm not exactly sure what options you think Buzz has. Dawson is worse than Derrick. Mayo is wildly inconsistent but still gets 20+ mpg. JJJ was hurt, but hasn't shown much in games against decent teams. Duane is redshirting.
So that leaves....what options exactly?
I think the jury is still WAY out on Dawson - and also believe he isn't worse than Derrick - it's hard to be much worse. Throw the stats on Dawson out all you want - I'm not going to judge a guy who gets 2 minute stints of run, and then yanked. Derrick has gotten the most minutes of anyone on the team through 18 games - we know what he is.
Furthermore, you have a FRESHMAN in Dawson, compared to a guy Derrick who is almost 3 full years into the program - who have "produced" at roughly the same level - albeit the sample size for one guy totally irrelevant.
What I want to see is Dawson, Mayo, Burton, Jamil and Garnder out there for 8-10 minute stretches at a time - no substitutions - NONE..regardless of what mistakes may occur in those 8-10 minutes. We are losing all of our games against decent competition anyway...why not radically change the lineup and see what the hell happens. All I'm asking is replace Derrick, Jake and Otule with Dawson, Mayo and Burton - and see what you get - give it at least 2 games to get some legit results/conclusions.
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Derrick is nowhere near being this team's biggest problem.
We have shooters who can't shoot, seniors who can't lead...and we're worrying about the one guy who plays great defense, protects the ball...and is actually starting to hit some baskets? Jeez...he had the best shooting percentage on the team today...and that includes Davante and Chris.
Part of the reason our shooters can't shoot is that they are never left alone. Jake Thomas is never, ever left alone. His man never doubles elsewhere because Derrick's man can always do it. Watch games for other teams. Heck watch us play defense. Sometimes we leave the other team's best shooter to help in the lane. That never happens for Jake because his man is instructed to never leave him under any circumstances because the help always comes from Derrick's man and Derrick doesn't make the defense pay. It is even hard for us to screen for Jake because Derrick doesn't look inside and you have to screen two defenders to get Jake open.
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I think the jury is still WAY out on Dawson - and also believe he isn't worse than Derrick - it's hard to be much worse. Throw the stats on Dawson out all you want - I'm not going to judge a guy who gets 2 minute stints of run, and then yanked. Derrick has gotten the most minutes of anyone on the team through 18 games - we know what he is.
Furthermore, you have a FRESHMAN in Dawson, compared to a guy Derrick who is almost 3 full years into the program - who have "produced" at roughly the same level - albeit the sample size for one guy totally irrelevant.
What I want to see is Dawson, Mayo, Burton, Jamil and Garnder out there for 8-10 minute stretches at a time - no substitutions - NONE..regardless of what mistakes may occur in those 8-10 minutes. We are losing all of our games against decent competition anyway...why not radically change the lineup and see what the hell happens. All I'm asking is replace Derrick, Jake and Otule with Dawson, Mayo and Burton - and see what you get - give it at least 2 games to get some legit results/conclusions.
Seriously...have you *watched* Dawson the past couple of games? Did you see what happened when the freshmen got an extended run together against Seton Hall?
And Buzz sees them every day. If Dawson can't beat Derrick in practice, what makes you think he'd be a better option during a real game? The idea that he couldn't be worse is absurd. You think Dawson could do what Derrick did yesterday? LOL...good luck with that.
Good Mayo should be played 30+ minutes. But Good Mayo doesn't show up for every game. And I'm not blaming his attitude, etc like others. I just think the guy is streaky.
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I think the jury is still WAY out on Dawson - and also believe he isn't worse than Derrick - it's hard to be much worse. Throw the stats on Dawson out all you want - I'm not going to judge a guy who gets 2 minute stints of run, and then yanked. Derrick has gotten the most minutes of anyone on the team through 18 games - we know what he is.
Furthermore, you have a FRESHMAN in Dawson, compared to a guy Derrick who is almost 3 full years into the program - who have "produced" at roughly the same level - albeit the sample size for one guy totally irrelevant.
What I want to see is Dawson, Mayo, Burton, Jamil and Garnder out there for 8-10 minute stretches at a time - no substitutions - NONE..regardless of what mistakes may occur in those 8-10 minutes. We are losing all of our games against decent competition anyway...why not radically change the lineup and see what the hell happens. All I'm asking is replace Derrick, Jake and Otule with Dawson, Mayo and Burton - and see what you get - give it at least 2 games to get some legit results/conclusions.
You already have the answer to your concerns, Ners. According to Buzz, Derrick is a game changer and the best defensive player he has ever coached. Otule has been with Buzz forever, so he gets minutes. As far as Jamil, he is absolutely a terrible defender--gets blown by frequently, and then commits a brain fart foul. Mayo has his moments, but then disappears or plays terrible. Both he and Jamil are the two most inconsistent players on the team, but yet have a combined almost 8 years experience.
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I'm a huge Buzz Backer, but he got caught with his pants down on the whole point guard recruitin' thing. The only way Buzz woulda come out ahead this season would have been for Duane to have performed well at the 1 spot. Derrick simply is not a high major startin' playa. This season never had a chance with him runnin' the show. Some of his teammates are strugglin' 'cuz of Derrick's limitations.Not a slam to Derrick. Not his fault he's forced to be a starter. I'm certain he'll be a huge success in life. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. When Buzz was blowin' smoke up our asses as to how good Derrick is, I'm sure he was tryin' to encourage and motivate the playa.
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Seriously...have you *watched* Dawson the past couple of games? Did you see what happened when the freshmen got an extended run together against Seton Hall?
And Buzz sees them every day. If Dawson can't beat Derrick in practice, what makes you think he'd be a better option during a real game? The idea that he couldn't be worse is absurd. You think Dawson could do what Derrick did yesterday? LOL...good luck with that.
Good Mayo should be played 30+ minutes. But Good Mayo doesn't show up for every game. And I'm not blaming his attitude, etc like others. I just think the guy is streaky.
I think if Dawson plays 40 minutes he absolutely gets Derricks stats from yesterday. Let's keep in context that while a solid game for Derrick yesterday, it was nothing earth shattering. You really don't think Dawson could get 13 pts and 3 assists in 40 minutes? he might not be able to match the 5 to's though ;D
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Seriously...have you *watched* Dawson the past couple of games? Did you see what happened when the freshmen got an extended run together against Seton Hall?
And Buzz sees them every day. If Dawson can't beat Derrick in practice, what makes you think he'd be a better option during a real game? The idea that he couldn't be worse is absurd. You think Dawson could do what Derrick did yesterday? LOL...good luck with that.
Good Mayo should be played 30+ minutes. But Good Mayo doesn't show up for every game. And I'm not blaming his attitude, etc like others. I just think the guy is streaky.
Of course I've watched Dawson the last couple of games....and for the 1000th time - it is not a relevant sample size to judge a player when he gets 2 minutes of action at a time. You saw what happened against Xavier - when Buzz had no choice but to run Dawson at the point for 8-10 minute stretches - he and the team played well in a tough place to play against a good team.
Buzz is simply in love with Derrick Wilson, is strongly loyal to him, and doesn't appear to want to make the change. WE aren't beating any good teams as it is, so there really is nothing to lose in giving a young player a good opportunity to get some game experience and grow - and perhaps along the way - you stumble into a diamond in the rough. Derrick would be an ideal back up PG at the high major level. Absolutely ideal - but he is not cut out to be a 30+ minute per game guy. The evidence is clear. Sadly, we are throwing away the senior year of our best post player in a long time - Gardner - due to Buzz's stubbornness.
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I think if Dawson plays 40 minutes he absolutely gets Derricks stats from yesterday. Let's keep in context that while a solid game for Derrick yesterday, it was nothing earth shattering. You really don't think Dawson could get 13 pts and 3 assists in 40 minutes? he might not be able to match the 5 to's though ;D
Outside of hope stemming from desperation, I can't see one piece of evidence that Dawson would have been able to do what Derrick did. I don't think he gets those points, and I certainly don't think he would play that type of defense.
And here's the deal...I don't particularly think Derrick is all that good. BUT I don't think they have better options. Dawson MIGHT be better when he is an upper classman...he MIGHT be better next year. But he certainly isn't better right now.
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Of course I've watched Dawson the last couple of games....and for the 1000th time - it is not a relevant sample size to judge a player when he gets 2 minutes of action at a time. You saw what happened against Xavier - when Buzz had no choice but to run Dawson at the point for 8-10 minute stretches - he and the team played well in a tough place to play against a good team.
Buzz is simply in love with Derrick Wilson, is strongly loyal to him, and doesn't appear to want to make the change. WE aren't beating any good teams as it is, so there really is nothing to lose in giving a young player a good opportunity to get some game experience and grow - and perhaps along the way - you stumble into a diamond in the rough. Derrick would be an ideal back up PG at the high major level. Absolutely ideal - but he is not cut out to be a 30+ minute per game guy. The evidence is clear. Sadly, we are throwing away the senior year of our best post player in a long time - Gardner - due to Buzz's stubbornness.
Buzz sees practice every day. Buzz sees Derrick outplaying Dawson. The idea that because *you* don't see Dawson play extended minutes, that *Buzz* can't draw a conclusion about his abilities, is just strange.
But instead of acknowledging that, you just trot out the "Buzz is being stubborn" excuse.
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Outside of hope stemming from desperation, I can't see one piece of evidence that Dawson would have been able to do what Derrick did. I don't think he gets those points, and I certainly don't think he would play that type of defense.
And here's the deal...I don't particularly think Derrick is all that good. BUT I don't think they have better options. Dawson MIGHT be better when he is an upper classman...he MIGHT be better next year. But he certainly isn't better right now.
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Dawson had 6 pts and 2 assists against Xavier in 17 minutes of play...Not a math major, but it looks like he would've been on pace to beat Derricks numbers from yesterday had he played 40 minutes in that game. And he did this against Xavier, which is a better team than Butler. There is my evidence that he could have gotten Derricks stats yesterday if givin the chance.
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Both ends my friend. Basketball is played on both ends. Derrick held Butler's leading scorer down for about 3/4 of that game.
Too bad that Dawson couldn't step up to provide adequate back up minutes as he had in previous games.
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The point guard isn't solid when he has more turnovers than assists, is a sub 50% ft shoota, and is an offensive liability whereby the defense doesn't respect him.
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Both ends my friend. Basketball is played on both ends.
Agreed! That's why it's painful to watch Derrick...Fine on defense, not so much on offense. He was solid yesterday though...gotta give him a little credit.
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Since Buzz seems uber reluctant to send Derrick to the bench for 20+ minutes a game - it's Buzz's problem to continue to try to fix. He's tried a number of "adjustments" already - none of which work. Buzz's stubbornness at this point is costing the team. You simply CANNOT have your starting back court, being the team's two WORST net negative contributors to the team, who also get the most, and 2nd most minutes.
Until the "adjustment" is made to send Derrick and Jake to the bench for 20+ minutes a game - nothing is going to change. We are playing 5 on 4 with Derrick out there. Buzz knows it, has said it, yet refuses to do anything about it. It isn't Derrick's fault - it's not like he's going to say sorry Buzz - bench me for 20 minutes per game. Taking a time out in the middle of a run as you suggest, isn't going to fix the problem. We've had 18 games to analyze the results under Derrick's direction - we are 10-8 with NO good wins.
You fail to answer the question.
Somehow Derrick was good enough, and the team good enough with him running the show, to build a 12 point lead on the road. Another poster said that Butler made some adjustments in how they were guarding Gardner. What did Buzz do to counter those adjustments? Is your answer that he should have sent Derrick to the bench after he, and the team, played well enough to that point to have a 12 point lead?
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I think if Dawson plays 40 minutes he absolutely gets Derricks stats from yesterday. Let's keep in context that while a solid game for Derrick yesterday, it was nothing earth shattering. You really don't think Dawson could get 13 pts and 3 assists in 40 minutes? he might not be able to match the 5 to's though ;D
Possibly, but Dunham would have gone off for thirty. I'll agree that Derrick is a problem for our team, but I also hold that there isn't a better option at this point. Derrick had a great game yesterday, I"m not sure why we are crucifying him for this game
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Part of the reason our shooters can't shoot is that they are never left alone. Jake Thomas is never, ever left alone. His man never doubles elsewhere because Derrick's man can always do it. Watch games for other teams. Heck watch us play defense. Sometimes we leave the other team's best shooter to help in the lane. That never happens for Jake because his man is instructed to never leave him under any circumstances because the help always comes from Derrick's man and Derrick doesn't make the defense pay. It is even hard for us to screen for Jake because Derrick doesn't look inside and you have to screen two defenders to get Jake open.
That might have been true earlier in the season, but have you watched the last couple of games? Have you noticed that when Derrick is left open, he either takes a midrange shot (and is starting to make them), or drives to the hoop for a layup? The bottom line is that we are no longer "playing 4 on 5" as some posters claim. Derrick is forcing defenders to notice him, and someone certainly has to defend him when he takes it to the hole.
And despite this, during the very two games where Derrick is making changes to force his defender to keep track of and defend him, Jake is 1-11 on threes. You can't blame that on the "4 on 5" argument anymore.
Jake is a streaky shooter who can either shoot us into games (ASU) or shoot us out of them (yesterday). Derrick, for all his flaws, is consistently our best defender...and has been steadily improving his offense the past few games. Let me ask you this - can you name one other player in our regular rotation whose offensive game has improved in the last week or two? If not, it might be time to blame someone other than Derrick.
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Jesus...Derrick is MU's most consistent player today and we have a handful of threads crucifying him. Seriously, what the f*ck do you want from him?
He's making Vander's whipping boy status look mild in comparison.
While Derrick and Davante were the only players that even had bright stretches in this game.. If you are trying to say he was anything other than awful the last 12 or so minutes you are legitimately insane.
I do agree that these multiple threads after a game like yesterdays are out of line seeing as everyone else other than Davante and Derrick sucked something awful for 40 minutes, Derrick was a huge part of us being terrible in those last 12 minutes.
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That might have been true earlier in the season, but have you watched the last couple of games? Have you noticed that when Derrick is left open, he either takes a midrange shot (and is starting to make them), or drives to the hoop for a layup? The bottom line is that we are no longer "playing 4 on 5" as some posters claim. Derrick is forcing defenders to notice him, and someone certainly has to defend him when he takes it to the hole.
And despite this, during the very two games where Derrick is making changes to force his defender to keep track of and defend him, Jake is 1-11 on threes. You can't blame that on the "4 on 5" argument anymore.
Jake is a streaky shooter who can either shoot us into games (ASU) or shoot us out of them (yesterday). Derrick, for all his flaws, is consistently our best defender...and has been steadily improving his offense the past few games. Let me ask you this - can you name one other player in our regular rotation whose offensive game has improved in the last week or two? If not, it might be time to blame someone other than Derrick.
Exactly how are defenders noticing Derrick? Whenever he was on the perimeter and the ball in his hands, his defender is at least 8 feet off him, stifling the middle. The only game that did not happen was the one in which Ox had 28 points--was that DePaul? The blue print to kick our ass is already diagrammed, and Derrick is the key to that blueprint.
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Heard that Buzz has been getting tweets from Cadougan, "Miss me yet?"
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Both ends my friend. Basketball is played on both ends. Derrick held Butler's leading scorer down for about 3/4 of that game.
Too bad that Dawson couldn't step up to provide adequate back up minutes as he had in previous games.
thanks for giving me the dumbest post of the year. takes some arrogance on your part. i'm guessing i've played and coached at a higher level than you, and i'm sure i've been to more mu practices than you have. that said, i don't float around on a message board calling serious posters dumb. i thought i'd watch the game one more time just to really focus in on how butler guarded d. wilson and where his defender was on the court. they didn't front DG at all times, and never fronted him when he was on the same side as d. wilson. d. wilson's man had his foot in the lane the majority time on defense (they would front DG when he was on the strong side and d. wilson was on the weak side)...as d. wilson's guy could double from behind. made it impossible to get DG the ball without a double and really messed with any natural driving lanes. i've supported buzz through and through, and i always did so by saying that i was only qualified to judge him on wins and losses. in keeping with that thought, i don't think pointing to the fact that he plays d. wilson means much. they're not winning. he's shooting 38% for the year, 47% from the FT line, and 9% from the 3pt line.
so tell me again how great it is to have a pg that the other team plays 8ft off of at all times, shoots less than 50% on lay-ups, can't hit an open shot to save his life, and can't be trusted with the ball at the end of the game, not because he doesn't have a decent handle, but because he shoots under 50% from the FT line. the game is played on both side of the court, and if you would have *watched* (sorry i had to) the game you would realize our issue wasn't team defense...it was team offense.
d. wilson is far from the only person that deserves blame, but it's not as one sided as you seem to *know*.
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Since you are such an expert what exactly would you do at point then???
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thanks for giving me the dumbest post of the year. takes some arrogance on your part. i'm guessing i've played and coached at a higher level than you, and i'm sure i've been to more mu practices than you have. that said, i don't float around on a message board calling serious posters dumb.
d. wilson is far from the only person that deserves blame, but it's not as one sided as you seem to *know*.
HOW DARE YOU CHALLENGE "The SULTAN!" He is the Expert of the Board and has earned the privilege, nay RIGHT, to call people Dumb and Stupid! You forget your place, Avid.
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Since you are such an expert what exactly would you do at point then???
i don't consider myself anything close to an expert...just thought i'd defend myself against your "dumbest post ever" comment that pissed me off a bit, as you were the one acting like an expert.
bottom line, he can't create off the dribble, he can't make an open shot, he can't shoot FT's, and he makes less than 50% of his lay-ups. yesterday it was obvious the word was to foul him if he got to the rim, which is about as good as a turnover. he can bring the ball up the court with a good handle, and his defense is solid.
so...dawson gets 20 mpg (with DG in the game), d. wilson gets 20 mpg (when otule is in)...20 minutes is situational, but end of game with a close score it has to be DG, j. wilson, j. thomas, t. mayo, and either anderson, j. johnson, or burton depending on the match-up.
worst case scenario...dawson gets better with experience and MU continues to lose. i'm not seeing growth from d. wilson...maybe i'm giving up too fast. show me one team that sticks with a pg who shoots 38% from the field, 48% from the FT line, 9% from the 3pt line, and gets 3.8 dimes a game.
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bottom line, he can't create off the dribble, he can't make an open shot, he can't shoot FT's, and he makes less than 50% of his lay-ups. yesterday it was obvious the word was to foul him if he got to the rim, which is about as good as a turnover. he can bring the ball up the court with a good handle, and his defense is solid.
Really?! The fact that he got to the rim at least 10 times and shot only 3 FTs would indicate that was not at all the strategy.
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Let's take a step back and put things in perspective. When last season ended, the '13-'14 PG position appeared to be in pretty good shape. Duane Wilson was likely to see around 20 minutes a game, Blue would see 10-15 (more if Duane wasn't ready), and Derrick would get his customary 10-12, primarily to give Duane or Blue a quick breather before TV timeouts, and Dawson would play in garbage time. With Blue leaving and Duane getting hurt, Buzz was left with his third and fourth string PGs for the season. Let me reiterate, for all intents and purposes, Buzz planned on Derrick Wilson being the third-string PG this season. As it was, Blue left, Duane was injured and the third-stringer became the starter with a garbage time frosh as his only true back-up. Despite this, many MU fans are quick to jump all over Derrick and Buzz for not being up to the challenge and for not making the proper adjustments while pining for more PT from a guy who was going to be just above the walk-on on the depth chart. The fact of the matter is that there's only so much a coach can do when he's down to his third and fourth string options and there's only so much that should reasonably be expected from a back-up's back-up when he's forced to play a bulk of the minutes. There's no Matt Flynn on the waiver wire for this team to pick-up so they have to go with what's on the roster. Ideally, a player who was expected to be in more of a "starring role" (Jamil, Mayo, DG specifically) would have stepped up to help minimize the negative impact that comes from having a third-stringer forced into a starting role. Unfortunately, that hasn't happened, Derrick's limitations are in full view and the team is struggling.
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Really?! The fact that he got to the rim at least 10 times and shot only 3 FTs would indicate that was not at all the strategy.
Seem to remember the last few games most of his lay ups were cleanly blocked or missed
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Seem to remember the last few games most of his lay ups were cleanly blocked or missed
Why let facts obscure a perfectly wonderful narrative? Derrick Wilson represents zero threat. Teams are fine with him getting 10 points some games because that's better than Gardner getting 25 every night. And for each of his drives to the hoop there is an excellent chance he will miss it, lose the ball, or get blocked. If he's fouled he might make one.
We are not competitive with the current starting line-up. The argument by some of this board's self appointed experts seems to be that Derrick Wilson sucks less than the other starters. Losing is losing.
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Why let facts obscure a perfectly wonderful narrative? Derrick Wilson represents zero threat. Teams are fine with him getting 10 points some games because that's better than Gardner getting 25 every night. And for each of his drives to the hoop there is an excellent chance he will miss it, lose the ball, or get blocked. If he's fouled he might make one.
We are not competitive with the current starting line-up. The argument by some of this board's self appointed experts seems to be that Derrick Wilson sucks less than the other starters. Losing is losing.
Did you even read what I was responding to?
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Did you even read what I was responding to?
I did. Did you even read what I wrote? Regardless of whether he is fouled or not, I believe coaches are ok with Wilson driving because he rarely converts. The end result is more often he turns it over, he misses, or gets fouled - in which case he at best makes one FT. Ignoring Wilson may lead to him getting 10 points occasionally which is better than Gardner dominating down low.
Marquette cannot win without an effective point guard. I am not here to beat up on the guy but we are not winning. Take out the cupcakes and Marquette is 3-8 this season.
But like Doc, I didn't watch the second half yesterday. At halftime I met up with colleagues and talked shop and Seahawks then met a lovely woman for dinner. Hell, I even ignored my Fighter Doc and had a glass of wine last night. A 2009 Bethel Heights Willamette Pinot Noir. I am glad I missed Marquette's collapse because it would have spoiled an otherwise great day.
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Hope ya got lucky, Crash.
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Hope ya got lucky, Crash.
Naw, I was a gentleman. She was a news reader in San Diego and St Louis and is now on the producing side. Smart lady. Not sure why she wants to spend time with me...
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Let's take a step back and put things in perspective. When last season ended, the '13-'14 PG position appeared to be in pretty good shape. Duane Wilson was likely to see around 20 minutes a game, Blue would see 10-15 (more if Duane wasn't ready), and Derrick would get his customary 10-12, primarily to give Duane or Blue a quick breather before TV timeouts, and Dawson would play in garbage time. With Blue leaving and Duane getting hurt, Buzz was left with his third and fourth string PGs for the season. Let me reiterate, for all intents and purposes, Buzz planned on Derrick Wilson being the third-string PG this season. As it was, Blue left, Duane was injured and the third-stringer became the starter with a garbage time frosh as his only true back-up.
This might be true, but let's remember a few things:
1. Many here assume Vander would have played major minutes at PG. Has Buzz ever said that was going to be the case? I'm not being difficult here. I legitimately don't know if Buzz ever declared such a thing or if we just assume it.
2. Buzz said approximately 842 times last season that Derrick should start over Junior. Now, we know Buzz was saying that mostly to motivate Junior; had Buzz been serious, he would have started Derrick. But this sent out more than a subtle hint about what would become Buzz's devotion to Derrick. Why am I now supposed to believe that Derrick -- clearly one of Buzz's favorite players even before this season -- wouldn't have at least shared the PG duties with Duane?
3. Buzz said several times before this season -- and before Duane got hurt -- that Duane was nowhere near ready to be a DI starting PG. Again, this was Buzz telling all who cared to be prepared for Derrick getting heavy minutes at PG, even had Duane been healthy.
So I'm not sure that even with Vander here, Derrick is anything less than the starting PG, playing 20+ mpg -- with Vander taking over PG sometimes the same way Jamil has taken over sometimes.
And I'm certainly not sure that Derrick plays less than 25 mpg without Vander but with a healthy Duane. It's not as if a healthy JJJ and Deonte have gotten mondo minutes, and Duane supposedly was well behind Derrick on the depth chart in October.
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That might have been true earlier in the season, but have you watched the last couple of games? Have you noticed that when Derrick is left open, he either takes a midrange shot (and is starting to make them), or drives to the hoop for a layup? The bottom line is that we are no longer "playing 4 on 5" as some posters claim. Derrick is forcing defenders to notice him, and someone certainly has to defend him when he takes it to the hole.
And despite this, during the very two games where Derrick is making changes to force his defender to keep track of and defend him, Jake is 1-11 on threes. You can't blame that on the "4 on 5" argument anymore.
Jake is a streaky shooter who can either shoot us into games (ASU) or shoot us out of them (yesterday). Derrick, for all his flaws, is consistently our best defender...and has been steadily improving his offense the past few games. Let me ask you this - can you name one other player in our regular rotation whose offensive game has improved in the last week or two? If not, it might be time to blame someone other than Derrick.
I watch the games very closely. Jake is never left unguarded and Derrick is constantly left unguarded, even when he HAS THE BASKETBALL 18 feet from the hoop. I have never seen such lack of respect by the defense of a PG.
Now, to be fair, he attacked that defense more against Butler with not great but not terrible results (which, considering how the rest of the team performed, was pretty good). You sound astute, so you must notice that when he does penetrate he doesn't hit other players for open shots, which is the biggest advantage to a PG penetrating. And the reason he doesn't do that is even when penetrating, even when 5 feet from the basket, the defense does not converge on him, as the defense would still rather see him shoot than pass. If he starts scoring with more constistency on these drives, perhaps that will open up the game for others.
As for the larger argument on Dawson vs. Derrick, it is obvious Buzz thinks Derrick is by far the better option, and he is in a much better position than me to know, being much closer to the situation and undoubtedly owning a much better understanding of what it takes to win college basketball games. I'd like to see Dawson play more, not because I think he is better but because I'd like to know if he is better. Buzz and staff have the advantage of seeing them all the time and certainly think he isn't.
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I watch the games very closely. Jake is never left unguarded and Derrick is constantly left unguarded, even when he HAS THE BASKETBALL 18 feet from the hoop. I have never seen such lack of respect by the defense of a PG.
Now, to be fair, he attacked that defense more against Butler with not great but not terrible results (which, considering how the rest of the team performed, was pretty good). You sound astute, so you must notice that when he does penetrate he doesn't hit other players for open shots, which is the biggest advantage to a PG penetrating. And the reason he doesn't do that is even when penetrating, even when 5 feet from the basket, the defense does not converge on him, as the defense would still rather see him shoot than pass. If he starts scoring with more constistency on these drives, perhaps that will open up the game for others.
As for the larger argument on Dawson vs. Derrick, it is obvious Buzz thinks Derrick is by far the better option, and he is in a much better position than me to know, being much closer to the situation and undoubtedly owning a much better understanding of what it takes to win college basketball games. I'd like to see Dawson play more, not because I think he is better but because I'd like to know if he is better. Buzz and staff have the advantage of seeing them all the time and certainly think he isn't.
Jake has missed several wide-open 3s the last two games. That doesn't mean he wasn't guarded, I suppose, but he certainly was freed up either by screens or ball-reversals. Which indicates he wasn't being quite as closely watched as, say, Steve Novak or a real sniper might have been.
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Now, to be fair, he attacked that defense more against Butler with not great but not terrible results (which, considering how the rest of the team performed, was pretty good). You sound astute, so you must notice that when he does penetrate he doesn't hit other players for open shots, which is the biggest advantage to a PG penetrating. And the reason he doesn't do that is even when penetrating, even when 5 feet from the basket, the defense does not converge on him, as the defense would still rather see him shoot than pass. If he starts scoring with more constistency on these drives, perhaps that will open up the game for others.
Fair points about not kicking it out much to others. There were two very notable exceptions in (I think) the DePaul game, where he got double teamed inside and had beautiful kick-outs to Jake and Todd for in-rhythm threes - both nothing but net. But you're right; that has been the exception, not the rule.
Bigger picture, though, we need to understand that it appears Buzz has given Derrick these new assignments mid-season. Buzz has said all along that one of the reasons Derrick starts is that he follows the game plan. Since he wasn't pushing the ball, shooting many jumpers or driving to the hole early this season, it stands to reason that Buzz probably wasn't asking him to do much of that. Instead, the offensive game plans seem to have involved slow, steady ballhandling, then handing off to guys like Jamil, Juan or Todd to create. This worked when Derrick was in last year...but obviously Vander was much more effective at this than Jamil, Juan and Todd have been. As Buzz has learned this, I suspect he has been very hurriedly working with Derrick to gradually expand the game plan...first adding the drives and the jump shots, then asking him to push the pace, and hopefully adding more kickouts to his repertoire.
In this context, comments by some that "Derrick has been here 3 years- we already know what he can do" must be taken with a huge grain of salt. We don't know how well he can do many of these new tasks, because Buzz (the guy who says Derrick has been following his game plans all along) has never called on Derrick to do them before.
Another note about the "Derrick has been here 3 years" comments. Like Dawson this year, most of Derrick's minutes the past 2 years were spot minutes in relief of Junior. As a frosh, Derrick only played 8.8 mpg (compared to Dawson's 9.1 this year) and as a soph, he played 13.1. And even those minutes were skewed by Derrick unexpectedly becoming a starter twice as a frosh (UW-Madison and WVU) when Junior was suspended for a half, and then the Pitt game last year when Derrick played 31 minutes off the bench when Junior hurt his ankle. And in those games, Derrick could just hand the ball to DJO or Jae (as a frosh) or Vander (as a soph), and things would happen. So it's clear that Buzz's expectations on Derrick were fairly minimal - play bulldog D, control the ball, and don't commit turnovers. Buzz even made it clear that he was telling Derrick NOT to shoot. In one of the "Inside Marquette Basketball" programs, Dennis Krause mentioned that Derrick had taken an awkward shot in the previous game and Buzz replied: "For Derrick, one shot is one too many."
Bottom line: Derrick is still a work in progress. He continues to be an excellent ballhandler and defender, and is evolving as an offensive threat. I don't think even Buzz expected to see teams sagging off him like they have, and even if he did I think he hoped Jamil and others could create off the handoff like DJO, Jae and Vander in years past. So he seems to changed the game plan as the season has gone along...and I give credit to Derrick for greatly improving his offense on the fly - with progress still to be made - while still being a great defender.
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I watch the games very closely. Jake is never left unguarded and Derrick is constantly left unguarded, even when he HAS THE BASKETBALL 18 feet from the hoop. I have never seen such lack of respect by the defense of a PG.
Now, to be fair, he attacked that defense more against Butler with not great but not terrible results (which, considering how the rest of the team performed, was pretty good). You sound astute, so you must notice that when he does penetrate he doesn't hit other players for open shots, which is the biggest advantage to a PG penetrating. And the reason he doesn't do that is even when penetrating, even when 5 feet from the basket, the defense does not converge on him, as the defense would still rather see him shoot than pass. If he starts scoring with more constistency on these drives, perhaps that will open up the game for others.
As for the larger argument on Dawson vs. Derrick, it is obvious Buzz thinks Derrick is by far the better option, and he is in a much better position than me to know, being much closer to the situation and undoubtedly owning a much better understanding of what it takes to win college basketball games. I'd like to see Dawson play more, not because I think he is better but because I'd like to know if he is better. Buzz and staff have the advantage of seeing them all the time and certainly think he isn't.
Butler made an adjustment in the 2nd half to not guard Derrick Wilson anymore, and the announcers mentioned that they needed to make this adjustment as well. Once they did this, we could not get entry passes into to our big men and our offense stalled. Cadougan was not a good shooter, but he would at least take the shot if left unguarded. I'd rather see D. Wilson at least attempt some of these shots and miss then let the defense sag that badly on him. They're playing defense on the perimeter with him like it was O'tule with the ball.
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Butler made an adjustment in the 2nd half to not guard Derrick Wilson anymore, and the announcers mentioned that they needed to make this adjustment as well. Once they did this, we could not get entry passes into to our big men and our offense stalled. Cadougan was not a good shooter, but he would at least take the shot if left unguarded. I'd rather see D. Wilson at least attempt some of these shots and miss then let the defense sag that badly on him. They're playing defense on the perimeter with him like it was O'tule with the ball.
It's not all on Wilson. To some extent, the D sags off of everyone except for Jake (which is why Jake sees so many minutes). Players other than Jake are shooting 26.5% from 3 (50-189). Every opposing team's defensive gameplan is the same: Pack the lane and force MU to make shots from the outside. If MU hits some outside shots, it opens things up on the inside.
Look at the numbers...
In games when Gardner has scored 18+ points, MU has shot 42.3% from 3 (47-111) and is 5-2.
In games when Gardner has scored less than 18 points, MU has shot 21.4% from 3 (36-168) and is 5-6.
There's obviously a correlation there.
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Butler made an adjustment in the 2nd half to not guard Derrick Wilson anymore, and the announcers mentioned that they needed to make this adjustment as well. Once they did this, we could not get entry passes into to our big men and our offense stalled. Cadougan was not a good shooter, but he would at least take the shot if left unguarded. I'd rather see D. Wilson at least attempt some of these shots and miss then let the defense sag that badly on him. They're playing defense on the perimeter with him like it was O'tule with the ball.
This is at least the third time this "adjustment" that Butler made has come up.
I posted earlier asking what adjustments Buzz made to counter. Nobody has replied, making me wonder if in fact he made any adjustments at all. I was unable to watch the game so I have no idea.
It sounds like he didn't change personnel. Did they start running anything differently on the offensive end? Did he take any timeouts to talk it through with the team? Did he do nothing as the game slowly tightened up and our offense completely stagnated?
Honestly, you all can skewer Derrick all you want, but if the staff isn't reacting to changes the other team makes that change the momentum of the game, it's not all on Derrick. He's running the team as the coaches want him to.
I do find it funny that the team was up 12 in the second half with Derrick playing the entire game, Gardner having a good game (wait, I thought that wasn't possible with Derrick on the floor at the same time) and things going pretty well. Suddenly, Butler makes some magical adjustment and it's all Derrick's fault that the game is lost. Par for the course this year, but it seems that there are several larger issues to me.
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This is at least the third time this "adjustment" that Butler made has come up.
I posted earlier asking what adjustments Buzz made to counter. Nobody has replied, making me wonder if in fact he made any adjustments at all. I was unable to watch the game so I have no idea.
It sounds like he didn't change personnel. Did they start running anything differently on the offensive end? Did he take any timeouts to talk it through with the team? Did he do nothing as the game slowly tightened up and our offense completely stagnated?
Honestly, you all can skewer Derrick all you want, but if the staff isn't reacting to changes the other team makes that change the momentum of the game, it's not all on Derrick. He's running the team as the coaches want him to.
I do find it funny that the team was up 12 in the second half with Derrick playing the entire game, Gardner having a good game (wait, I thought that wasn't possible with Derrick on the floor at the same time) and things going pretty well. Suddenly, Butler makes some magical adjustment and it's all Derrick's fault that the game is lost. Par for the course this year, but it seems that there are several larger issues to me.
And what do you see these "larger issues" being for this year's basketball team - if it isn't PG play and shooting guard play (Derrick and Jake getting the most minutes on the team?).
Do you really feel Jamil and Davante got worse in the off season as players? What's changed is the cast around them. Our starting backcourt and leading minute getters have the worst Net Efficiency Ratings of any of our players!!
Teams simply say, we can absolutely live with Derrick Wilson beating us, will give him ample good looks, but no way in hell are we going to let Davante Gardner or Jamil Wilson beat us.
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Both ends my friend. Basketball is played on both ends. Derrick held Butler's leading scorer down for about 3/4 of that game.
Too bad that Dawson couldn't step up to provide adequate back up minutes as he had in previous games.
So he held him down until the game was on the line? Isn't that when your 'defensive stopper' should actually be the stopper?
This year is just one of those years that isn't working - all teams have them. the personal isn't meshing. The senior frontcourt has been terrible, and the shooting guard isn't a very good shooter and has no creative ability. But DW is still the biggest problem. A good PG will play to the other players abilities. Derrick is unable to do this.
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This is at least the third time this "adjustment" that Butler made has come up.
I posted earlier asking what adjustments Buzz made to counter. Nobody has replied, making me wonder if in fact he made any adjustments at all. I was unable to watch the game so I have no idea.
It sounds like he didn't change personnel. Did they start running anything differently on the offensive end? Did he take any timeouts to talk it through with the team? Did he do nothing as the game slowly tightened up and our offense completely stagnated?
Honestly, you all can skewer Derrick all you want, but if the staff isn't reacting to changes the other team makes that change the momentum of the game, it's not all on Derrick. He's running the team as the coaches want him to.
I do find it funny that the team was up 12 in the second half with Derrick playing the entire game, Gardner having a good game (wait, I thought that wasn't possible with Derrick on the floor at the same time) and things going pretty well. Suddenly, Butler makes some magical adjustment and it's all Derrick's fault that the game is lost. Par for the course this year, but it seems that there are several larger issues to me.
The fact of the matter is that Marquette shot 5-27 in the second half. Gardner was 1-8, Jamil 2-7, Jake 0-4 and Mayo 0-3. Believe me, those guys had plenty of open looks so it wasn't really a matter of "adjustments." MU outrebounded Butler by 7 and made 5 more FTs in second half but the difference was that Butler made some shots (including 3 3's) while MU shot under 20% and missed all 10 of their 3s. That's what happened in the second half. There are only so many "adjustments" that a coach can make when his team can't put the ball in the basket.
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The fact of the matter is that Marquette shot 5-27 in the second half. Gardner was 1-8, Jamil 2-7, Jake 0-4 and Mayo 0-3. Believe me, those guys had plenty of open looks so it wasn't really a matter of "adjustments." MU outrebounded Butler by 7 and made 5 more FTs in second half but the difference was that Butler made some shots (including 3 3's) while MU shot under 20% and missed all 10 of their 3s. That's what happened in the second half. There are only so many "adjustments" that a coach can make when his team can't put the ball in the basket.
Good post - kind of begs the question: Why in the hell did Buzz not put Burton in the game in the second half??!
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The fact of the matter is that Marquette shot 5-27 in the second half. Gardner was 1-8, Jamil 2-7, Jake 0-4 and Mayo 0-3. Believe me, those guys had plenty of open looks so it wasn't really a matter of "adjustments." MU outrebounded Butler by 7 and made 5 more FTs in second half but the difference was that Butler made some shots (including 3 3's) while MU shot under 20% and missed all 10 of their 3s. That's what happened in the second half. There are only so many "adjustments" that a coach can make when his team can't put the ball in the basket.
Haven't you received the memo? Other guys missing open shots is Derrick's fault.
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Good post - kind of begs the question: Why in the hell did Buzz not put Burton in the game in the second half??!
That's a legitimate question and one I wondered myself. My best guess would be that Buzz liked the way the D was playing in the second half and didn't want a defensive liability giving Butler an easy bucket or two in a game where points were hard to come by. For the last couple of weeks, I've been expecting Buzz to start doing an offense/defense switch with Burton and possibly Juan (like he's done with Gardner/Otule in the past) but it has yet to happen. Saturday seemed like it would have been a golden opportunity to try it.
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It's not all on Wilson. To some extent, the D sags off of everyone except for Jake (which is why Jake sees so many minutes). Players other than Jake are shooting 26.5% from 3 (50-189). Every opposing team's defensive gameplan is the same: Pack the lane and force MU to make shots from the outside. If MU hits some outside shots, it opens things up on the inside.
Look at the numbers...
In games when Gardner has scored 18+ points, MU has shot 42.3% from 3 (47-111) and is 5-2.
In games when Gardner has scored less than 18 points, MU has shot 21.4% from 3 (36-168) and is 5-6.
There's obviously a correlation there.
Good point.
Here's where Buzz needs to answer this question: If Paint Touches are key, then why are you allowing your players to shoot the ball instead of getting paint touches?
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But like Doc, I didn't watch the second half yesterday. At halftime I met up with colleagues and talked shop and Seahawks then met a lovely woman for dinner. Hell, I even ignored my Fighter Doc and had a glass of wine last night. A 2009 Bethel Heights Willamette Pinot Noir. I am glad I missed Marquette's collapse because it would have spoiled an otherwise great day.
2009? Meh.
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Good point.
Here's where Buzz needs to answer this question: If Paint Touches are key, then why are you allowing your players to shoot the ball instead of getting paint touches?
1) Paint touches are tougher to come by because teams are clogging the lane.
2) Paint touches aren't necessarily shots from in the paint. The concept is designed to get players to move the ball, get it into the post and to drive and kick/dish. In other words, play less one-on-one. Open looks from the outside come as a result of paint touches.
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1) Paint touches are tougher to come by because teams are clogging the lane.
2) Paint touches aren't necessarily shots from in the paint. The concept is designed to get players to move the ball, get it into the post and to drive and kick/dish. In other words, play less one-on-one. Open looks from the outside come as a result of paint touches.
I know.
And this all points to the Derrick's inability to shoot/score the rock (your #1) and drive to pass off to a consistent shooter or even display the understanding and vision to do so (#2).
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Maybe for the best thing would be for Derrick to have the flu tonight and missed the whole game. I think that would shut people up about playing other people instead of Derrick. Yes, in prior years we had better point guards, but there are no other better options on this team. Derrick missing an entire game would show that.
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Maybe for the best thing would be for Derrick to have the flu tonight and missed the whole game. I think that would shut people up about playing other people instead of Derrick. Yes, in prior years we had better point guards, but there are no other better options on this team. Derrick missing an entire game would show that.
If this happened we would win the game and he would never start another game for Marquette ;D
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I know.
And this all points to the Derrick's inability to shoot/score the rock (your #1) and drive to pass off to a consistent shooter or even display the understanding and vision to do so (#2).
I guess I don't understand your question then.
Is there a consistent shooter on the roster to pass to? Read my post from 11:10am. It's far from being solely on Derrick.
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And what do you see these "larger issues" being for this year's basketball team - if it isn't PG play and shooting guard play (Derrick and Jake getting the most minutes on the team?).
Do you really feel Jamil and Davante got worse in the off season as players? What's changed is the cast around them. Our starting backcourt and leading minute getters have the worst Net Efficiency Ratings of any of our players!!
Teams simply say, we can absolutely live with Derrick Wilson beating us, will give him ample good looks, but no way in hell are we going to let Davante Gardner or Jamil Wilson beat us.
Answer this question for me. How did MU build a 12 point lead in the 2nd half on the road in a tough (historically at least) place to play? How did this possibly happen when the least efficient player on the team played every single minute of the game to that point? How did Davante have a good game going up to that point when according to everyone here Derrick is the cause of Gardner's funk this year?
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The fact of the matter is that Marquette shot 5-27 in the second half. Gardner was 1-8, Jamil 2-7, Jake 0-4 and Mayo 0-3. Believe me, those guys had plenty of open looks so it wasn't really a matter of "adjustments." MU outrebounded Butler by 7 and made 5 more FTs in second half but the difference was that Butler made some shots (including 3 3's) while MU shot under 20% and missed all 10 of their 3s. That's what happened in the second half. There are only so many "adjustments" that a coach can make when his team can't put the ball in the basket.
Thank you for this post. Pretty much proves it was all Derrick's fault, as I suspected.
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So he held him down until the game was on the line? Isn't that when your 'defensive stopper' should actually be the stopper?
Exactly.
"She is a very chaste young lady. She maintained her virginity until her Senior Prom..."
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Thank you for this post. Pretty much proves it was all Derrick's fault, as I suspected.
What does it prove? The point people are making is that because Derrick is unguarded, that makes the shots the other players get tougher. Just because somebody says we had a lot of good looks doesn't mean we actually had a lot of good looks. I can only remember two of Jake's second half 3 point attempts, the two that were on one possession with guys draped all over him. A lot of Gardner's misses were 18 foot jump shots because we can't get the ball inside to him. I do seem to remember Jamil missing a lot of mid-range jumpers he often hits and Mayo missing some open 3s, but it's not like we were just missing a series of uncontested lay-ups and no-footers.
It's not all Derrick, of course. But nobody on this team creates good opportunities for others, and that is usually the job of the PG.
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What does it prove? The point people are making is that because Derrick is unguarded, that makes the shots the other players get tougher. Just because somebody says we had a lot of good looks doesn't mean we actually had a lot of good looks. I can only remember two of Jake's second half 3 point attempts, the two that were on one possession with guys draped all over him. A lot of Gardner's misses were 18 foot jump shots because we can't get the ball inside to him. I do seem to remember Jamil missing a lot of mid-range jumpers he often hits and Mayo missing some open 3s, but it's not like we were just missing a series of uncontested lay-ups and no-footers.
It's not all Derrick, of course. But nobody on this team creates good opportunities for others, and that is usually the job of the PG.
It doesn't prove anything...other than we got cold and that <by your own admission> our best players missed a number of open shots they often make.
Was Derrick being guarded while we built our 12 point lead? If not, how did we manage to do that? Was Butler not playing defense? Were we maybe making some shots instead of shooting 18.5%?
The fact of the matter is that this team can play well with Derrick at PG. The fact that they often do not says some things about Derrick...but it also says a lot of things about the other guys on the team.
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2009? Meh.
2009 for the Willamette Valley was excellent. Just my opinion but the world's best pinot is now coming out of Oregon. If Pinot Noir is your thing you must check out the Intl Pinot Noir Celebration in McMinville, OR. It's an annual June event that attracts Pinot vintners from around the world. It is built around sampling, education, and eating. An exquisite event.
http://www.ipnc.org/
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Answer this question for me. How did MU build a 12 point lead in the 2nd half on the road in a tough (historically at least) place to play? How did this possibly happen when the least efficient player on the team played every single minute of the game to that point? How did Davante have a good game going up to that point when according to everyone here Derrick is the cause of Gardner's funk this year?
Happy to oblige you, and look forward to hearing what you feel are this team's "larger issues," outside the realm of PG play.
What changed in the second half compared to first? Butler took away Gardner completely, and played even further off of Derrick in the 2nd half, and Derrick played more tentatively in the 2nd half. Gardner was killing Butler in the first half, and they took him away. Derrick scored 6 of his points to my recollection off of secondary break action in the first half, with Otule and Gardner sealing their defender and creating a good driving lane for Derrick to get to the bucket. Derrick was far more aggressive in transition this past game than before - Derrick forced action far more than he had all season in the first half - yet, he had some turnovers as a result, a few passes intercepted as he tried to push the ball upcourt off of missed shots - and then Derrick reverted back to super conservative, robotic Derrick. That's what changed.
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Happy to oblige you, and look forward to hearing what you feel are this team's "larger issues," outside the realm of PG play.
What changed in the second half compared to first? Butler took away Gardner completely, and played even further off of Derrick in the 2nd half, and Derrick played more tentatively in the 2nd half. Gardner was killing Butler in the first half, and they took him away. Derrick scored 6 of his points to my recollection off of secondary break action in the first half, with Otule and Gardner sealing their defender and creating a good driving lane for Derrick to get to the bucket. Derrick was far more aggressive in transition this past game than before - Derrick forced action far more than he had all season in the first half - yet, he had some turnovers as a result, a few passes intercepted as he tried to push the ball upcourt off of missed shots - and then Derrick reverted back to super conservative, robotic Derrick. That's what changed.
The numbers say otherwise.
Derrick Wilson vs Butler
1st Half: 3-7, 0-1 on 3s, 6 pts, 2 assists, 1 TO
2nd Half: 2-5, 1-2 FTs, 5 pts, 1 assist, 3 TO
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The numbers say otherwise.
Derrick Wilson vs Butler
1st Half: 3-7, 0-1 on 3s, 6 pts, 2 assists, 1 TO
2nd Half: 2-5, 1-2 FTs, 5 pts, 1 assist, 3 TO
Derrick traveled a couple of times in the second half, FYI. Why do you think Derrick all of a sudden turned it over 5 times in a game?? Because for once he tried to play an aggressive brand of basketball...played faster than his comfort zone...which led to travels, intercepted passes, etc., but it did create some scoring opportunities for him in the first half, and others.
But, since ATL can't seem to answer the question as to what this team's bigger issues are beyond PG play, and since you want to defend him and all his Pro-Derrick arguments - what is your take on why this team is struggling this year?
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Happy to oblige you, and look forward to hearing what you feel are this team's "larger issues," outside the realm of PG play.
Ok
1) The roster is constructed almost entirely of one-dimensional players, including PG. Guys that are pretty darn good at one thing and not very good at anything else. Examples (not in any particular order):
- Gardner - Great post up scorer with great hands. Poor defender (especially help) and let's himself be taken out of the game mentally--if he's not scoring he let's it affect the rest of his game and is not helping the team in other ways (defense, rebounding, etc.).
- Otule - Very good interior defender and willing to use his body to do the dirty work. Has developed a nice little hook with both hands, but not a good scorer or rebounder.
- Jake - Good shooter. Smart positional defender. Not much else.
- Juan - Hustle and has shown he can be a good rebounder. Not much else.
- Derrick - Good defender and at taking care of the ball. Can't shoot and doesn't do much to create opportunities for others which, of course, are huge problems.
2) The two guys (Mayo and Jamil) that are more complete/multi-dimensional players are inconsistent as hell. Never know what you are going to get and can't really rely on them like you need to be able to.
3) Lack of leadership. The seniors (particularly Jamil) need to be showing up every night. They are not.
4) Lack of a go-to guy. Down 1, who on this team is going to take the last shot? Who do you want to take the last shot? I have no idea...Todd? Jamil? They are just as/more likely to settle for a contested fall away three as they are to take it to the rack.
5) Lack of players that can create and get their own bucket. Mayo has shown flashes but not yet consistent. Who else has done this against a good team? Deonte I guess?
6) Injuries to expected contributors Steve and Duane. Who knows if Duane would have been able to crack the rotation or not, but Steve was expected to be a big time contributor this year I would think.
7) Nobody other than Jake can consistently hit a perimeter shot. Nobody.
I am sure there are more. The point being the struggles of this team are not all on Derrick like you want to believe.
Edited to add #7. How the hell could I forget that...biggest problem we have.
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Better teamwork is needed asap
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i thought i'd watch the game one more time just to really focus in on how butler guarded d. wilson and where his defender was on the court. they didn't front DG at all times, and never fronted him when he was on the same side as d. wilson. d. wilson's man had his foot in the lane the majority time on defense (they would front DG when he was on the strong side and d. wilson was on the weak side)...as d. wilson's guy could double from behind. made it impossible to get DG the ball without a double and really messed with any natural driving lanes. i've supported buzz through and through, and i always did so by saying that i was only qualified to judge him on wins and losses. in keeping with that thought, i don't think pointing to the fact that he plays d. wilson means much. they're not winning. he's shooting 38% for the year, 47% from the FT line, and 9% from the 3pt line.
Avid - thanks for re-watching, and the analysis. Real nice post. I considered a re-watch but I lacked the courage.
If I'm an opposing coach, I'm going to do just what Butler did, eliminating DG's low post game and clogging the lane.
Given that assumption (that opposing coached will continue to do this to us), I'd like to hear from the board what adjustments Buzz should make to counter this move. Eliminate Oxtule and put DG at the high post and run the offense through him? I don't claim to know the answer. I never coached and I learn a lot from the rational commentary on this board. (were that there were only rational commentary...)
Anyway, what adjustments should Buzz make?
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Avid - thanks for re-watching, and the analysis. Real nice post. I considered a re-watch but I lacked the courage.
If I'm an opposing coach, I'm going to do just what Butler did, eliminating DG's low post game and clogging the lane.
Given that assumption (that opposing coached will continue to do this to us), I'd like to hear from the board what adjustments Buzz should make to counter this move. Eliminate Oxtule and put DG at the high post and run the offense through him? I don't claim to know the answer. I never coached and I learn a lot from the rational commentary on this board. (were that there were only rational commentary...)
Anyway, what adjustments should Buzz make?
Agree with this. And, as a non-expert, I'd love to hear what some of the actual coaches would have to say. There are clearly other teams out there that are successful (or at least semi-successful) who can't shoot from 3. What does it take to overcome that?