Don't be alarmed if you think I'm blaming this one on the officials because I most certainly am not. We played like crap offensively in the second half and OT. Very disappointing.
I was listening to the radio feed and McIlvaine seemed pretty adamant about us not getting calls for elbows getting hit on three point shots and questionable defense on Jake. Just wondering if those of you who saw the game on cable thought since you actually saw it.
Marquette not getting calls on the road (or at home for that matter) is nothing new so it isn't an excuse for this team.
Officials miss calls every game. I thought they were consistent. Burr had some "Burr moments," but nothing egregious.
The other 2 officials kept Burr in check for most of the game, even overruled him a couple times. Near the end he realized he didn't get enough airtime yet so he did a couple typical Jim Burr "I need attention" calls, but they didn't affect the game.
I think he and Pete Gillen might be under the bleachers together having a private moment, though.
I hope Pete Gillen's voicebox is chewed off by an angry raccoon.
Mayo was clearly fouled taking a three point shot with 10 or 12 seconds to play and the refs missed it. Could have made three to win.
Quote from: denverMU on January 18, 2014, 03:57:39 PM
Mayo was clearly fouled taking a three point shot with 10 or 12 seconds to play and the refs missed it. Could have made three to win.
maybe, but refs had nothing to do with this. Scoring nine points in the final 15 minutes is disgraceful.
Buzz said T on Jamil was a bad call.
Quote from: ecompt on January 18, 2014, 03:59:53 PM
maybe, but refs had nothing to do with this. Scoring nine points in the final 15 minutes is disgraceful.
Not maybe, he clearly hit him on the elbow, the ball was about 5 feet short of the rim and then the blind refs say the ball was tipped.
Quote from: ecompt on January 18, 2014, 03:59:53 PM
maybe, but refs had nothing to do with this. Scoring nine points in the final 15 minutes is disgraceful.
5 points in 11 1/2 minutes in one stretch against a terrible defensive team. Inexcusable.
Quote from: denverMU on January 18, 2014, 04:04:49 PM
Not maybe, he clearly hit him on the elbow, the ball was about 5 feet short of the rim and then the blind refs say the ball was tipped.
point is, we should have been up by 15 at that point. And Mayo didn't deserve a call because he had played with his head up his ass the entire game.
Quote from: ecompt on January 18, 2014, 04:11:08 PM
point is, we should have been up by 15 at that point. And Mayo didn't deserve a call because he had played with his head up his ass the entire game.
I never understand this kind of thought process. Whether we should have been or not we weren't. Fouls are not "deserved", they are fouls or not fouls. He was clearly fouled taking a three point shot with less tan 15 seconds to play. Call the foul and let the players decide the outcome of the game.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on January 18, 2014, 04:03:52 PM
Buzz said T on Jamil was a bad call.
Wow. Maybe he should watch the replay.
Quote from: denverMU on January 18, 2014, 04:16:34 PM
I never understand this kind of thought process. Whether we should have been or not we weren't. Fouls are not "deserved", they are fouls or not fouls. He was clearly fouled taking a three point shot with less tan 15 seconds to play. Call the foul and let the players decide the outcome of the game.
Totally understand your thinking. But MU never should have put itself in that situation. The last 15 minutes, from the coaching to the idiotic decisions on the court, was as bad as it gets.
Mayo was definitely fouled but you should never play in a way which allows one missed call to determine the outcome
Quote from: ecompt on January 18, 2014, 03:59:53 PM
maybe, but refs had nothing to do with this.
???
Mayo gets hit on the shooting arm on a three point shot that would have given us the lead late, but the refs had nothing to do with it. Interesting.
Lets blame it on Mayo cuz he didnt play that well up to that point and didnt DESERVE it!
Quote from: MUtbone on January 18, 2014, 03:41:05 PM
Don't be alarmed if you think I'm blaming this one on the officials because I most certainly am not. We played like crap offensively in the second half and OT. Very disappointing.
I was listening to the radio feed and McIlvaine seemed pretty adamant about us not getting calls for elbows getting hit on three point shots and questionable defense on Jake. Just wondering if those of you who saw the game on cable thought since you actually saw it.
Marquette not getting calls on the road (or at home for that matter) is nothing new so it isn't an excuse for this team.
I think this was a problem for MU. I agree with Sultan, it was called consistently, but they blatantly ignored the new rule emphasis. Butler was grabbing and holding Jake (and Mayo) away from the ball and around picks and then putting two hands on them as the defender.
They didn't call it either way, but it certainly seemed that after the rules being emphasized for every game so far that they went out the window and it bothered MU. We had adjusted to the new rules and played defense according to those new rules. Butler seemed to know it wouldn't be emphasized and took advantage to put us off rhythm.
In the end we adjusted poorly and it cost us. Regardless, you can't win games if you can't hit open shots and we didn't do that today.
Pete Gillen praised Jim Burr at least three times as being one of the best referees in the country. Obviously Pete is either insane or on something.
Quote from: We R Final Four on January 18, 2014, 05:32:01 PM
???
Mayo gets hit on the shooting arm on a three point shot that would have given us the lead late, but the refs had nothing to do with it. Interesting.
Lets blame it on Mayo cuz he didnt play that well up to that point and didnt DESERVE it!
Point taken. But expecting the refs to rescue us on the road after we absolutely stunk on offense for 15 minutes is foolish. Refs let them play at both ends, and except for Burr being Burr a few times, refs did NOT cost us the game. They gave Jake two FTs after the Mayo non-call. Could they have called that foul? Sure. And maybe -- MAYBE -- Todd hits all three FTs. But we didn't deserve to win.
Never blame the officials, they are the same for both teams. The team and coach need to look in the mirror first .
Why give officials a pass? They screwed up and it possibly cost us. The Todd three was a foul--they blew it. It possibly meant the game. Why is that ok? We stunk but had chance to win and an officials incorrect call made a big difference. Not only was it a big miss but it should have been Butler's ball and it was reviewable--under two minutes. They blew that call at every level. It possibly cost us the game. Why in the world do people say officials don't cost teams the game? Of course they do. Hell, if we had a twenty point lead it doesn't matter but it was a tight game. I have always thought that people who let the refs off the hook were never athletes. You lose a tight game due to a bad call, damn right it was an officials call. You play your ass off and a tough call takes you out. Hell yeah, officials can cause a loss.
Hitting a shooter's arm late in the game is a foul that should be called--regardless if you feel that MU played poorly up to that point in time. They are unrelated events.
Your logic is flawed.......and you sound like my Dad who doesn't watch basketball.
Quote from: We R Final Four on January 18, 2014, 06:55:57 PM
Hitting a shooter's arm late in the game is a foul that should be called--regardless if you feel that MU played poorly up to that point in time. They are unrelated events.
Your logic is flawed.......and you sound like my Dad who doesn't watch basketball.
I can pretty much guarantee that I have watched more games than you and your Dad, going back to watching MU in the NIT in 1967.
Great tourney E.C. Warriors took down some heavies. Too bad Clyde was a load.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 18, 2014, 07:22:10 PM
Great tourney E.C. Warriors took down some heavies. Too bad Clyde was a load.
Clyde was unbelievable. I was at the semifinals when Marquette and SIU advanced.
Great memories. I was at the Garden to witness Pistol Pete when he met defeat and for the Finals vs. Sweet Lou a couple of days later. One of many classic MU photos was Dean puttin' the MVP trophy on his head in his home town.
Yep, we had to face Julius Erving and Pete Maravich in the span of a few days.
Quote from: ecompt on January 18, 2014, 07:19:46 PM
I can pretty much guarantee that I have watched more games than you and your Dad, going back to watching MU in the NIT in 1967.
Well then you should certainly recognize an obvious foul and realize its potential impact on the outcome--regardless if they deserved it.
Quote from: hdog1017 on January 18, 2014, 06:10:04 PM
Pete Gillen praised Jim Burr at least three times as being one of the best referees in the country. Obviously Pete is either insane or on something.
I think Gillen is referencing the fact Burr has done 16 Final Fours and 7 national championship games. That doesn't happen by accident. He is clearly on the down slope of his career, but his career has been distinguished.
Quote from: We R Final Four on January 18, 2014, 07:40:32 PM
Well then you should certainly recognize an obvious foul and realize its potential impact on the outcome--regardless if they deserved it.
I probably said it wrong. Was it a foul? Yes. Was it a call that you are going to get on the road? You should, but it's not a given. Would Mayo have hit all three free throws to give them the lead, and would MU been able to hold on in the final 12 seconds? We'll never know. I was concentrating on the fact that the reason (I think) they lost the game was scoring 19 points in the second half, then allowing 20 points in five minutes of overtime.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 18, 2014, 07:52:11 PM
I think Gillen is referencing the fact Burr has done 16 Final Fours and 7 national championship games. That doesn't happen by accident. He is clearly on the down slope of his career, but his career has been distinguished.
Actually legendary, aina?
Quote from: Gato78 on January 18, 2014, 06:54:23 PM
Why give officials a pass? They screwed up and it possibly cost us. The Todd three was a foul--they blew it. It possibly meant the game. Why is that ok? We stunk but had chance to win and an officials incorrect call made a big difference. Not only was it a big miss but it should have been Butler's ball and it was reviewable--under two minutes. They blew that call at every level. It possibly cost us the game. Why in the world do people say officials don't cost teams the game? Of course they do. Hell, if we had a twenty point lead it doesn't matter but it was a tight game. I have always thought that people who let the refs off the hook were never athletes. You lose a tight game due to a bad call, damn right it was an officials call. You play your ass off and a tough call takes you out. Hell yeah, officials can cause a loss.
Only if you believe one call is any different than any other. There are calls missed throughout a game. Yup, they missed the call on Mayo there. What about a call they missed 5 minutes earlier that could have resulted in 2 free throws for Butler? The problem with this thinking that official can cause a loss is that fans are usually focusing on one call and ignoring the other 25 to 40 calls made throughout the game or the ones not made and not giving them the same weighting.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 18, 2014, 07:54:18 PM
Actually legendary, aina?
I reserve legendary status for folks like Stu Merrill, John Holmes, and Charlie Sheen
Early in the game, you can fight back. If you are down by two or four, you know what has to be done and you fight like hell to do it if there is time left in the game. Late in the game, both teams become more intense and they are playing at a higher level. Late in the game, you lose time to fight back from the error. Late game officiating errors cost teams games. The 25 or 40 calls are an ebb and flow and lead to different decisions and playing intensity during the game. Can't do it late in games.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 18, 2014, 07:54:32 PM
Only if you believe one call is any different than any other. There are calls missed throughout a game. Yup, they missed the call on Mayo there. What about a call they missed 5 minutes earlier that could have resulted in 2 free throws for Butler? The problem with this thinking that official can cause a loss is that fans are usually focusing on one call and ignoring the other 25 to 40 calls made throughout the game or the ones not made and not giving them the same weighting.
Quote from: Gato78 on January 18, 2014, 06:54:23 PM
Why give officials a pass? They screwed up and it possibly cost us. The Todd three was a foul--they blew it. It possibly meant the game. Why is that ok? We stunk but had chance to win and an officials incorrect call made a big difference. Not only was it a big miss but it should have been Butler's ball and it was reviewable--under two minutes. They blew that call at every level. It possibly cost us the game. Why in the world do people say officials don't cost teams the game? Of course they do. Hell, if we had a twenty point lead it doesn't matter but it was a tight game. I have always thought that people who let the refs off the hook were never athletes. You lose a tight game due to a bad call, damn right it was an officials call. You play your ass off and a tough call takes you out. Hell yeah, officials can cause a loss.
people who are/were athletes that compete at a high level understand that blaming the officials is a losing proposition . Also frankly, I didn't think there was any contact on that last call at all, body or ball, so it actually went our way when we got he ball back
That is where the officials botched it. The only two outcomes were a foul or ball out to Butler because it was off Mayo. They should have reviewed it because it was inside 2 minutes. It was to our benefit but the replay clearly showed he was hit on the arm. Blaming officials is a losing proposition publicly but it occurs. Buzz took a shot in the post game. If your theory is correct, the quality of officiating is irrelevant because it always evens out. That is a complete pile.
Quote from: Chris Columbo on January 18, 2014, 08:47:32 PM
people who are/were athletes that compete at a high level understand that blaming the officials is a losing proposition . Also frankly, I didn't think there was any contact on that last call at all, body or ball, so it actually went our way when we got he ball back
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 18, 2014, 07:52:11 PM
I think Gillen is referencing the fact Burr has done 16 Final Fours and 7 national championship games. That doesn't happen by accident. He is clearly on the down slope of his career, but his career has been distinguished.
Chicos. You stuck up for this jerk in another thread. Is he your relative? I don't care what he used to be, I care how he performs his job now! Favre, Unites, Elway , were all good or great in their time, maybe the Packers should can Rodgers for them. They are all available to play!!!
Good performance in the past does not excuse piss poor, crappy, (or worse) performance today.
Careful, it's a long way down from that saddle!!
Quote from: 82fanatic on January 18, 2014, 09:07:36 PM
Chicos. You stuck up for this jerk in another thread. Is he your relative? I don't care what he used to be, I care how he performs his job now! Favre, Unites, Elway , were all good or great in their time, maybe the Packers should can Rodgers for them. They are all available to play!!!
Good performance in the past does not excuse piss poor, crappy, (or worse) performance today.
Careful, it's a long way down from that saddle!!
I am no Jim Burr fan (you'll notice I started a thread after the Xavier game about being stuck with him), but all the announcer said was that he as one of the all time greats. Which is exactly what CBB confirmed. I hate Jim Burr's officiating as much as the next Marquette fan but he has a long distinguished career as a referee.
And no, the Packers should not call up Unitas, Favre, or Elway. But all three of them are still all time greats and distinguished.
Quote from: Gato78 on January 18, 2014, 08:44:25 PM
Early in the game, you can fight back. If you are down by two or four, you know what has to be done and you fight like hell to do it if there is time left in the game. Late in the game, both teams become more intense and they are playing at a higher level. Late in the game, you lose time to fight back from the error. Late game officiating errors cost teams games. The 25 or 40 calls are an ebb and flow and lead to different decisions and playing intensity during the game. Can't do it late in games.
You are right you cannot "recover" late in the game, but a bad call is a bad call. If Butler is fouled going up for a shot and it isn't called, they are still denied a potential 2 points whether they have time to recover or not, those 2 potential points on that play disappear.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 18, 2014, 10:08:06 PM
Your are right you can "recover" late in the game, but a bad call is a bad call. If Butler is fouled going up for a shot and it isn't called, they are still denied a potential 2 points whether they have time to recover or not, those 2 potential points on that play disappear.
Miami of freakin' Ohio. Woulda, coulda, shoulda.
MU - Butler 2014 is small potatoes.
Quote from: 82fanatic on January 18, 2014, 09:07:36 PM
Chicos. You stuck up for this jerk in another thread. Is he your relative? I don't care what he used to be, I care how he performs his job now! Favre, Unites, Elway , were all good or great in their time, maybe the Packers should can Rodgers for them. They are all available to play!!!
Good performance in the past does not excuse piss poor, crappy, (or worse) performance today.
Careful, it's a long way down from that saddle!!
::)
I'm not into conspiracy theories or people blaming officials. Do I think Burr is an outstanding official anymore? No. Do I think he was horrible today? No. Do I think he was any better or worse than the other officials today? No.
My comment earlier was simply that he has had a distinguished career which is why people have made the glowing comments about him in the past. Tim Higgins actually called him the greatest college ref ever. Everyone has an opinion.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 18, 2014, 10:08:06 PM
Your are right you can "recover" late in the game, but a bad call is a bad call. If Butler is fouled going up for a shot and it isn't called, they are still denied a potential 2 points whether they have time to recover or not, those 2 potential points on that play disappear.
I've heard this argument before and it doesn't hold up.
A holding call by the offensive lineman on 4th and goal with 30 seconds to go in the game does not negate the offensive holding with 14 min to go in the 1st quarter. They cannot just be washed as even Steven.
Teams in all sports play terribly all the time and get out with a win. Regardless how poorly they played throughout the majority of game, they were in a position to win in the end.
When the ref blows the call in the end, you can say "we didn't deserve to get that call".
C'mon man.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on January 18, 2014, 03:51:33 PM
I hope Pete Gillen's voicebox is chewed off by an angry raccoon.
Too good for him!
Quote from: We R Final Four on January 18, 2014, 10:22:07 PM
I've heard this argument before and it doesn't hold up.
A holding call by the offensive lineman on 4th and goal with 30 seconds to go in the game does not negate the offensive holding with 14 min to go in the 1st quarter. They cannot just be washed as even Steven.
Teams in all sports play terribly all the time and get out with a win. Regardless how poorly they played throughout the majority of game, they were in a position to win in the end.
When the ref blows the call in the end, you can say "we didn't deserve to get that call".
C'mon man.
A game is the result of each and every play during the game. A TD scored in the first quarter is worth the same amount of points as a TD scored with 4 seconds left in the game. Each play has consequences and often determines what the next play or action may or may not be taken. To ignore those plays in the early game, or bad calls, what have you means you are ignoring the very nature of contest.
I would strongly recommend you read the book Scorecasting. Fabulous book, massive amounts of data in it, but a great read.
I didnt say points. Yes, no sheet, a TD scored at any point in the game goes up on the scoreboard, is the result of the actions and is real.
It is the other events----such as non-calls at crucial points in the game---that carry more weight than a charging call 10 seconds into the game. Again, they are not even Steven.
If a bad call in the first half is equal to one at the end of the game, why are they only allowed to review the play in the final 2 minutes?
Quote from: keefe on January 18, 2014, 10:13:58 PM
Miami of freakin' Ohio. Woulda, coulda, shoulda.
MU - Butler 2014 is small potatoes.
God, keefe, you had to bring that up? The call on Whitehead was one of the worst in history.
Call was a rip, but MU had no business lettin' MoO hang around that long.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 18, 2014, 09:45:20 PM
I am no Jim Burr fan (you'll notice I started a thread after the Xavier game about being stuck with him), but all the announcer said was that he as one of the all time greats. Which is exactly what CBB confirmed. I hate Jim Burr's officiating as much as the next Marquette fan but he has a long distinguished career as a referee.
And no, the Packers should not call up Unitas, Favre, or Elway. But all three of them are still all time greats and distinguished.
It goes to show you that actually doing your job well has nothing to do with your reputation in your field, nor your ability to get promotions. Burr is horrendous. Maybe he used to be better, I certainly have noticed him being bad for at least 10 years. He should have been put out to pasture long, long ago.
Quote from: We R Final Four on January 19, 2014, 08:09:46 AM
I didnt say points. Yes, no sheet, a TD scored at any point in the game goes up on the scoreboard, is the result of the actions and is real.
It is the other events----such as non-calls at crucial points in the game---that carry more weight than a charging call 10 seconds into the game. Again, they are not even Steven.
I think you would enjoy it. Tied to data, not opinions.
http://www.amazon.com/Scorecasting-Hidden-Influences-Behind-Sports/dp/0307591808
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61kn%2BrTTJQL._SY344_PJlook-inside-v2,TopRight,1,0_SH20_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Quote from: TallTitan34 on January 19, 2014, 08:41:08 AM
If a bad call in the first half is equal to one at the end of the game, why are they only allowed to review the play in the final 2 minutes?
I think you know that answer.....its about pace of game, too much slowing down of the game, television window, flow, etc. In fact, that is one of the reasons given for the review, so that games aren't slowed down.
Most importantly, they can review a reviewable play that happens ANY TIME during a game and not just the last four minutes, but in the first 36 minutes of the game it has to be done at a media timeout. Again, to keep pace of game going. In the last 4 minutes, there is no media timeout to "get it right", thus they have to stop the action right then and there to do their review.People focus on the last two minutes, but a goaltending non call in the first half prevents 2 points just as it does in the last 2 minutes. A player hit on the arm shooting with 6 minutes in the half not called deserves 2 free throw attempts just as someone in the last 40 seconds. Those are points (potentially) taken off the board. The difference is that people focus on the end and forget about everything in the beginning. This is human nature, as the climatic end is in sight and the clock is winding down, there is no more room for error and fans weight it differently in their minds. The reality is, there is no difference.
I would recommend everyone on this board get this book. A healthy dose of psychiatry of fans, excellent data metrics of the impacts of calls, non-calls, and the true nature of how games are won and lost. You will not be disappointed.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61kn%2BrTTJQL._SY344_PJlook-inside-v2,TopRight,1,0_SH20_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
If you want to look at games as evening out and calls don't make anymore difference at the end of a game as the beginning, I do not want you on my team. My ideal teammates get tougher and more intense as the game goes on. Same with officials. If you aren't at your best at the end, I don't want you on the floor.
Quote from: Gato78 on January 19, 2014, 06:16:21 PM
If you want to look at games as evening out and calls don't make anymore difference at the end of a game as the beginning, I do not want you on my team. My ideal teammates get tougher and more intense as the game goes on. Same with officials. If you aren't at your best at the end, I don't want you on the floor.
You are mixing things entirely. Has nothing to do with intensity, nor was that the premise of this thread or the posts. You're just trying to justify your comments with an unrelated comment about intensity, etc.
Officials make calls throughout a game, they make good calls throughout the game and they make some bad calls throughout the game. If I get hacked shooting a jumpshot with 6 minutes to go and it is not called and we lose by 1 point, that play (just as every other play) can be pointed to. No differently than if the exact same play is missed with 14 seconds left. In both cases, the points opportunities are missed.
Refs see what the see and they make calls. Every call or non call throughout a contest is impactful. Fans just like to focus on the calls at the end.
I'd invite you to read an award winning book on this and many other aspects of winning games, including home field advantage, why refs call things differently for the home team than the visiting team, biases, and of course the impacts of a call early in the game vs late in the game.
I think you will find it is quite enjoyable.
(http://www.atomicbooks.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/s/c/scorecasting.jpg)
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 19, 2014, 08:47:17 PM
You are mixing things entirely. Has nothing to do with intensity, nor was that the premise of this thread or the posts. You're just trying to justify your comments with an unrelated comment about intensity, etc.
Officials make calls throughout a game, they make good calls throughout the game and they make some bad calls throughout the game. If I get hacked shooting a jumpshot with 6 minutes to go and it is not called and we lose by 1 point, that play (just as every other play) can be pointed to. No differently than if the exact same play is missed with 14 seconds left. In both cases, the points opportunities are missed.
Refs see what the see and they make calls. Every call or non call throughout a contest is impactful. Fans just like to focus on the calls at the end.
I'd invite you to read an award winning book on this and many other aspects of winning games, including home field advantage, why refs call things differently for the home team than the visiting team, biases, and of course the impacts of a call early in the game vs late in the game.
I think you will find it is quite enjoyable.
Chicos, the problem with this type of treatment is that it actually defies reality. You are completely correct, 2 pts lost with 6 minutes left is the same as 6 seconds as far as points are concerned. But that does not reflect the entirety of any situation.
The problem is there are an infinite number of variables at play, thus the effect of a blown call can not be ascertained with any certainty the further removed from the actual occurrence. Statisticians and modelers can try to argue otherwise (from a pts perspective), but ultimately any of those analyses distills life down to a few parameters that individual deems important. They neglect a single parameter (of importance) out of the infinite number of variables and their analysis becomes meaningless. So the only way an event definitively affects an outcome is when it occurs in close proximity to that outcome.
All the previous calls/events generated the current state and may or may not have balanced each other out. They become insignificant, unless a systematic bias is observed. In contrast, the end call dictated the result.
Quote from: ecompt on January 19, 2014, 09:02:26 AM
God, keefe, you had to bring that up? The call on Whitehead was one of the worst in history.
Defending National Champs with everyone back but Bo and Neary. I think that one call deflated our balloon more than any other single event. Changed the entire complexion of Hank's tenure. We win that game and Bowie and the McCrays sign.
Was Scooter the cat who played a solo on the skin flute? Or was it Rodney?
Gato
Let me give you a perfect example. End of the NIT championship game between MU and Virginia Tech. Tech is fouled with like a second left, MU fans all hacked off, etc, etc. We lose by one point.
MU fans blaming that foul for the game loss (even though Mike Deane felt it was the right call). If MU hadn't gone 6 of 16 from the stripe in our own regard, then that call doesn't seem quite so "big", but fans don't remember that we went 6 of 16 from the line, they remember the foul at the end. They remember it because of what was on the clock in terms of time.
Every play contributes to the outcome of a game. You miss shots early in the game, they impact the rest of the game, but it is human nature to focus more on the plays at the end...even though they have the same weighting. We're just hyper focused to pay attention to them and ignore the missed bunny in the first half, the missed foul shots, the calls, etc.
Read a book about stats? Learn how to be a frickin' competitor. And when you are balls to the wall, and you get robbed, its real comforting to know the calls even out because some book recommended by Chicos said so. I played in the State championship football game in Lambeau Field in 1973. Lost the game. To this day, guys are still affected by that game and certain plays in that game. You can say any damn thing you want about books and stats and evening things out but it is all crap. What happened at the end of that game lives with guys to this day. The calls, the mistakes the plays. No one forgets, and some guys cannot even discuss it to this day. It is all because of what happened at the end of that game. The stuff in the middle was not outcome determinative, it just got us to the drama at the end. And the end changed peoples lives. You can say all this dispassionate, it all evens out crap, but all that tells me is you were never in the arena. It does matter. It is memorable. And when you are on the receiving end of bad calls, and lose, it hurts. You probably believe the athletes when they say it wasn't this call or that call. They are BSing and when they talk among themselves, the truth comes out. The athletes never forget the bad calls at the end that cost them.
Quote from: keefe on January 19, 2014, 09:17:13 PM
Defending National Champs with everyone back but Bo and Neary. I think that one call deflated our balloon more than any other single event. Changed the entire complexion of Hank's tenure. We win that game and Bowie and the McCrays sign.
That Miami(OH) game is another great example of this.
Few people remember that MU shot 13 of 20 from the free throw line that game. Miami shot 16 of 19. That was big.
Or the fact Jimmy Boylan only hit 1 of 2 free throws at the end with 20 seconds left. Makes them both, what happens? Hank doesn't get a T, what happens? MU had a 10 point lead with a little over 3 minutes to play when that bad call was made. MU self destructed, but still had opportunities to win in regulation and in OT...plus many missed opportunities throughout the game. MU had the lead and the ball with a little over 1 minute to play. We turned it over twice.
Human nature focuses on one call, not all the other things that could have been done that weren't.
Quote from: forgetful on January 19, 2014, 09:03:29 PM
Chicos, the problem with this type of treatment is that it actually defies reality. You are completely correct, 2 pts lost with 6 minutes left is the same as 6 seconds as far as points are concerned. But that does not reflect the entirety of any situation.
The problem is there are an infinite number of variables at play, thus the effect of a blown call can not be ascertained with any certainty the further removed from the actual occurrence. Statisticians and modelers can try to argue otherwise (from a pts perspective), but ultimately any of those analyses distills life down to a few parameters that individual deems important. They neglect a single parameter (of importance) out of the infinite number of variables and their analysis becomes meaningless. So the only way an event definitively affects an outcome is when it occurs in close proximity to that outcome.
All the previous calls/events generated the current state and may or may not have balanced each other out. They become insignificant, unless a systematic bias is observed. In contrast, the end call dictated the result.
I never said it did reflect the entire of the situation, in fact I'm arguing exactly that point that a game's outcome is made up of EVERYTHING that happens from the opening tip until the end of the game. Each play is significant, each call, each make, each miss, etc. You are also correct that as one play happens, that result leads to another action \ reaction which cannot ever be defined. Absolutely 100% agree.
You're saying the end call dictated the result of a game, this is where I do not agree (nor do the authors of the book). Tonight, SF lost to Seattle. Did they lose the game because of the last interception? Many will say yes. What about the interception 4 minutes earlier...what would have come from that drive? Etc, etc. Fans, by their nature, focus on what happens at the end, and that is logically incorrect.
It's a great book, I would recommend it to anyone.
If you are a fan of game theory, etc...just a great read. Flows well.
NY Times review of it
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/30/books/review/Weber-t.html?pagewanted=all
100% correct. J Whitehead was such a dominating force in the middle. That one call rattled the MU team. The mistakes made thereafter were largely related to J Whitehead's ejection. That call caused the loss of confidence and poor play thereafter. It was a defining moment in MU hoops history. Chico is right, there were other chances but that call affected players' confidence and absolutely was a primary cause of that loss.
Quote from: keefe on January 19, 2014, 09:17:13 PM
Defending National Champs with everyone back but Bo and Neary. I think that one call deflated our balloon more than any other single event. Changed the entire complexion of Hank's tenure. We win that game and Bowie and the McCrays sign.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 19, 2014, 09:55:22 PM
That Miami(OH) game is another great example of this.
Few people remember that MU shot 13 of 20 from the free throw line that game. Miami shot 16 of 19. That was big.
Or the fact Jimmy Boylan only hit 1 of 2 free throws at the end with 20 seconds left. Makes them both, what happens? Hank doesn't get a T, what happens? MU had a 10 point lead with a little over 3 minutes to play when that bad call was made. MU self destructed, but still had opportunities to win in regulation and in OT...plus many missed opportunities throughout the game. MU had the lead and the ball with a little over 1 minute to play. We turned it over twice.
Human nature focuses on one call, not all the other things that could have been done that weren't.
Right on, brother. That game was horsecrap.
Game management was everything and Hank couldn't settle the team down. We should have blown them to kingdom come. The fact that with less than five minutes left, Miami of Ohio was STILL a game was a testament to poor coaching and even poorer game management.
That was the 1978 version of a 16 seed upsetting a 1 seed. It was an embarrassment to Marquette University and was the first sign that things weren't right in the basketball department.
We aren't there yet. Buzz has done wonders for our program. But how we come out of where we are -- referees or not -- is everything to our future.
Quote from: Gato78 on January 19, 2014, 09:49:13 PM
Read a book about stats? Learn how to be a frickin' competitor. And when you are balls to the wall, and you get robbed, its real comforting to know the calls even out because some book recommended by Chicos said so. I played in the State championship football game in Lambeau Field in 1973. Lost the game. To this day, guys are still affected by that game and certain plays in that game. You can say any damn thing you want about books and stats and evening things out but it is all crap. What happened at the end of that game lives with guys to this day. The calls, the mistakes the plays. No one forgets, and some guys cannot even discuss it to this day. It is all because of what happened at the end of that game. The stuff in the middle was not outcome determinative, it just got us to the drama at the end. And the end changed peoples lives. You can say all this dispassionate, it all evens out crap, but all that tells me is you were never in the arena. It does matter. It is memorable. And when you are on the receiving end of bad calls, and lose, it hurts. You probably believe the athletes when they say it wasn't this call or that call. They are BSing and when they talk among themselves, the truth comes out. The athletes never forget the bad calls at the end that cost them.
I get it, I lost in the final four CIF (California's high school federation) in 1986 and was on the field for the entire game. Yup, it hurts. Still hurts. If only we had made that one play....but if we had, they can make the same argument on their side, too. This is the part people forget. Opportunities lost on both sides, but folks like to look at only OUR lost opportunities, not theirs. Human nature.
Again, nothing you are saying I disagree with, but you're bringing something into the argument that has no bearing on the discussion at hand. Apples to lemons.
Just for pleasure reading, as a sports fan, I think you will find the book of great interest. It's not a book just on stats. Much much more. Any sports fan would find it enjoyable. You talk of pain playing and losing, you'll enjoy this book. You talk of intensity in the 4th quarter vs the 1st quarter, there is an entire section on this type of thing...you'll enjoy this book.
http://scorecasting.com/
A few items of discussion in the book:
Does defense truly win championships?
Is there really such a thing as momentum in sports?
Does icing the kicker work?
Are the Chicago Cubs cursed?
Are officials biased?
Can you really quantify the subjective aspects of sports, like officiating?
What is really driving the home field advantage in all sports?
Officials are biased...but not for the reasons you think.
Using all four downs in football is still considered sports heresy. Wrongly, but everyone punts, right?
Tiger Woods is, in fact, mortal . . . even on the golf course.
Why picking first in the entire NFL draft might be worth less than the first pick in the second round.
Why star players are treated differently (but not necessarily better) by the officials?
Why the Cubs may not be so unlucky.
The myth of momentum in sports and why so many fans, coaches, and broadcasters fervently believe in it.
I think this review captures it well
"A counterintuitive, innovative, unexpected handbook for sports fans interested in the truths that underpin our favorite games. With their lively minds and prose,
Moskowitz and Wertheim will change the way you think about and watch sports. Not just for stats nerds, Scorecasting enlightens and entertains. I wish I had thought of it!"
- Jeremy Schaap, ESPN reporter, Author of Cinderella Man
"Scorecasting is both scholarly and entertaining, a rare double. It gets
beyond the cliched narratives and tried-but-not-necessarily-true assumptions to reveal significant and fascinating truths about sports."
- Bob Costas, NBC Sports commentator
Quote from: Gato78 on January 19, 2014, 09:49:13 PM
Read a book about stats? Learn how to be a frickin' competitor. And when you are balls to the wall, and you get robbed, its real comforting to know the calls even out because some book recommended by Chicos said so. I played in the State championship football game in Lambeau Field in 1973. Lost the game. To this day, guys are still affected by that game and certain plays in that game. You can say any damn thing you want about books and stats and evening things out but it is all crap. What happened at the end of that game lives with guys to this day. The calls, the mistakes the plays. No one forgets, and some guys cannot even discuss it to this day. It is all because of what happened at the end of that game. The stuff in the middle was not outcome determinative, it just got us to the drama at the end. And the end changed peoples lives. You can say all this dispassionate, it all evens out crap, but all that tells me is you were never in the arena. It does matter. It is memorable. And when you are on the receiving end of bad calls, and lose, it hurts. You probably believe the athletes when they say it wasn't this call or that call. They are BSing and when they talk among themselves, the truth comes out. The athletes never forget the bad calls at the end that cost them.
Bad calls happen all the time. There is no question they rob teams of well earned victories. However, I think it is a losing proposition to dwell on back calls. you can't change them they are part of sports . Just move and conquer the next mountain.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 19, 2014, 09:59:09 PM
I never said it did reflect the entire of the situation, in fact I'm arguing exactly that point that a game's outcome is made up of EVERYTHING that happens from the opening tip until the end of the game. Each play is significant, each call, each make, each miss, etc. You are also correct that as one play happens, that result leads to another action \ reaction which cannot ever be defined. Absolutely 100% agree.
You're saying the end call dictated the result of a game, this is where I do not agree (nor do the authors of the book). Tonight, SF lost to Seattle. Did they lose the game because of the last interception? Many will say yes. What about the interception 4 minutes earlier...what would have come from that drive? Etc, etc. Fans, by their nature, focus on what happens at the end, and that is logically incorrect.
It's a great book, I would recommend it to anyone.
If you are a fan of game theory, etc...just a great read. Flows well.
NY Times review of it
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/30/books/review/Weber-t.html?pagewanted=all
Here's my issue with your rationale, you are acting like the gamblers who say that the next time they have to win, because the coin was flipped heads 50 times in a row. The next time it has to be tails.
Similarly with a game. When it gets to crunchtime, the whole rest of the game doesn't matter (the heads 50 times in a row). At that point all that matters is the current play/call. It does decide the game (the single coin flip is all that matters).
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 18, 2014, 07:55:59 PM
I reserve legendary status for folks like Stu Merrill, John Holmes, and Charlie Sheen
Robin Olds, Chuck Yeager, and B.B. King
Quote from: dgies9156 on January 19, 2014, 10:09:08 PM
Right on, brother. That game was horsecrap.
Game management was everything and Hank couldn't settle the team down. We should have blown them to kingdom come. The fact that with less than five minutes left, Miami of Ohio was STILL a game was a testament to poor coaching and even poorer game management.
That was the 1978 version of a 16 seed upsetting a 1 seed. It was an embarrassment to Marquette University and was the first sign that things weren't right in the basketball department.
We aren't there yet. Buzz has done wonders for our program. But how we come out of where we are -- referees or not -- is everything to our future.
To your point and Lenny's, there is no way Miami should have been within sniffing distance of the defending National Champ that late in the game. Game management was the responsibility of one man. The game was still ours to lose even after J was ejected. It was Hank's job to get the situation under control. And he did not.
Let's assume Marquette wins it all again and that we signed Bowie and the McCrays. I still think Marquette would have slipped from where Al had us. I think we all knew that all of the cachet and mystique left with Al. It is astounding how quickly we not only fell from national prominence; within a few years we had become irrelevant.
This year is a watershed moment for the Marquette program. How Buzz manages the next 24 months will be crucial for the university.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 19, 2014, 09:18:47 PM
Was Scooter the cat who played a solo on the skin flute? Or was it Rodney?
Scooter was working his Trom-Bone when Majerus walked in on the jam session. Obviously, a very uncomfortable moment for all concerned. The McCrays ended up signing with Denny Crum (who begged to replace Al at Marquette) and Louisville won two Ships in 4 trips to the Final Four between 1980-86.
Meanwhile, Rick Majerus was so disturbed by the "Scooter Jam Session" he began sh1tting in towels during team meetings.
And Marquette? We hired Bob Dukiet.
My only gripe about officiating comes with end of game situations. If it's a foul/infraction at any other part of the game, it's a foul/infraction in the last 2min, 1min, 30sec, whatever. I hate the phrase "refs shouldn't decide the game." Within a small scope, that's correct - they shouldn't overstep their bounds and do something to alter the game. But if a player gets fouled with 10sec to go, and a ref wouldn't hesitate to make that call in the first 5min of the game, then they shouldn't hesitate ever. The rules are there for a reason.
Quote from: forgetful on January 19, 2014, 10:21:36 PM
Here's my issue with your rationale, you are acting like the gamblers who say that the next time they have to win, because the coin was flipped heads 50 times in a row. The next time it has to be tails.
Similarly with a game. When it gets to crunchtime, the whole rest of the game doesn't matter (the heads 50 times in a row). At that point all that matters is the current play/call. It does decide the game (the single coin flip is all that matters).
Quite to the contrary. I'm a firm believer AGAINST that kind of thinking. When people say it's come up tails ten times the the next time the odds are it will come up heads...they're just wrong. The odds are still 50-50.
My problem with what you are saying is that when you say "at that point all that matters is the current play/call...it does decide the game" then you are willingly ignoring everything else in the game. You're essentially saying that nothing else mattered. Why even play the first 38 minutes of the game then, if ONLY that call matters? You are sequencing is really all you're doing. You are giving it more importance because time is coming to an end, but that doesn't mean you get to ignore everything else...yet that's what fans do.
This is the trap that so many people fall into. They put it all on the last play, the last interception, the last touchdown, the last call as if the rest of the plays, calls, etc are of no consequence and should just be ignored.
Think about it.
Quote from: dgies9156 on January 19, 2014, 10:09:08 PM
Right on, brother. That game was horsecrap.
Game management was everything and Hank couldn't settle the team down. We should have blown them to kingdom come. The fact that with less than five minutes left, Miami of Ohio was STILL a game was a testament to poor coaching and even poorer game management.
That was the 1978 version of a 16 seed upsetting a 1 seed. It was an embarrassment to Marquette University and was the first sign that things weren't right in the basketball department.
We aren't there yet. Buzz has done wonders for our program. But how we come out of where we are -- referees or not -- is everything to our future.
Yet people focus on "the call"...Human nature. It makes them feel better about the fact we never should have lost that game or come unraveled. It's easier to blame a ref (be it Jim Burr or someone else) than to blame our free throw shooting, or turnovers, or our own missed opportunities. I don't blame folks, we all fall into the trap. Every one of us. Human nature.
Interesting that you mention it was equivalent to a 16 vs 1. Not sure if that is the right comparison, but close. The key to me is that it was Hank's first tournament and that loss killed us in the perception game. It was as if MU wasn't MU without Al. You win that game, maybe a few others, and recruits still come.
The seedings back then were much different. Each region had the top 4 seeds by automatic bids and then there were top 4 seeds by at large teams as well. That was the last year the tournament was seeded in such a fashion. We were the #1 At Large in the Mideast and Miami was the #3 Auto Qualifier. Western Kentucky was the #4 Auto Qualifer. So I would equate is more like a 15 vs 2 than a 16 vs 1.
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 19, 2014, 10:48:40 PM
My only gripe about officiating comes with end of game situations. If it's a foul/infraction at any other part of the game, it's a foul/infraction in the last 2min, 1min, 30sec, whatever. I hate the phrase "refs shouldn't decide the game." Within a small scope, that's correct - they shouldn't overstep their bounds and do something to alter the game. But if a player gets fouled with 10sec to go, and a ref wouldn't hesitate to make that call in the first 5min of the game, then they shouldn't hesitate ever. The rules are there for a reason.
Agree. A foul in minute 10 should be the same as a foul in the last minute.
I don't know if you heard, but there is a great book called Scorecasting that gets into why this happens. ;) It really does. Excellent analysis on why officials do what they do.
(http://bbac02.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/unclerico.gif)
(http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpza6vl5wX1qe0eclo1_r12_500.gif)
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 19, 2014, 11:31:07 PM
This is the trap that so many people fall into. They put it all on the last play, the last interception, the last touchdown, the last call as if the rest of the plays, calls, etc are of no consequence and should just be ignored.
Think about it.
I absolutely agree with you. As I noted above, we did not lose to Miami of Ohio because of an inept referee. We failed to manage the game.
In watching several of our losses this year, we lost from coast to coast. From the beginning of the game to the end. From the Ohio State game, where we were down early 19,243-2, or Becky and Creighton, where we furiously came back but dug ourselves a hole so deep in the first half, light didn't get down that far.
Basketball is a 40 minute game. You can look at any game and see a turning point. You lay off the gas, miss a shot or whatever. It's seldom something boneheaded in overtime.
As a final thought, we lost a game in 1969 in OT that would have put us in the final four if only Ric Cobb had hit two free throws in regulation. He hit one. Cobb didn't lose that game. The team did. The whole team. Cobb was just the guy at the end that was most obvious against Purdue.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 20, 2014, 12:00:14 AM
(http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpza6vl5wX1qe0eclo1_r12_500.gif)
This is a GREAT movie. Lee Ermey's performance is one for the ages. What's interesting is that Kubrick filmed it entirely in the UK, including scenes from The Nam. Throughout the movie the sky was just wrong, looking entirely like summer in the UK than Parris Island or the tropics. Still, just tremendous cinema.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 19, 2014, 11:42:34 PM
Agree. A foul in minute 10 should be the same as a foul in the last minute.
I don't know if you heard, but there is a great book called Scorecasting that gets into why this happens. ;) It really does. Excellent analysis on why officials do what they do.
Once my time isn't being taken up by Current or Harrison's (or one of the other 900 books the PA program "suggests"), I'll get on it.
While y'all are in the readin' mode, pick up a copy of Grain Brain. It's life changin'.
So the idea that a team is "lucky" at the end of a game to win it or that a late turnover consists of "peeing down one's leg" has been totally debunked by Chicos. Davidson and Marquette were both lucky and unlucky at various moments of a 40 minute game in which the last minute was no more significant than than the other 39 and Davidson's late turnover was just another turnover (no bigger or smaller than previous ones by both teams). Thanks for putting the idea that luck at the end or that even the points scored at the end win or lose the game, Chicos, but I guess you read this book recently - after mistakingly calling our win against Davidson "lucky" over and over again for months.
Damn Jim Burr!
Why did he force us to miss 20 of 24 three-pointers?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 20, 2014, 09:18:33 AM
So the idea that a team is "lucky" at the end of a game to win it or that a late turnover consists of "peeing down one's leg" has been totally debunked by Chicos. Davidson and Marquette were both lucky and unlucky at various moments of a 40 minute game in which the last minute was no more significant than than the other 39 and Davidson's late turnover was just another turnover (no bigger or smaller than previous ones by both teams). Thanks for putting the idea that luck at the end or that even the points scored at the end win or lose the game, Chicos, but I guess you read this book recently - after mistakingly calling our win against Davidson "lucky" over and over again for months.
There is a chapter, maybe two, on luck...the true definition of it, etc....in the book. You should get it. Read it. Get back to me.
Was Miami lucky to beat MU in 1978? Was MU lucky to beat Davidson last year? Drop $10 on the book, I'd suggest the Kindle version. Let me know your thoughts.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 20, 2014, 08:14:09 AM
While y'all are in the readin' mode, pick up a copy of Grain Brain. It's life changin'.
I bought it, haven't started it yet. Too much beer sitting in the garage that I have to consume first.
so CBB's new gig is literary agent for the two cats that wrote this book, a'ina?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 20, 2014, 09:36:25 AM
There is a chapter, maybe two, on luck...the true definition of it, etc....in the book. You should get it. Read it. Get back to me.
Was Miami lucky to beat MU in 1978? Was MU lucky to beat Davidson last year? Drop $10 on the book, I'd suggest the Kindle version. Let me know your thoughts.
I will try to read the book, but it seems to me that if a blown call at the end of a game is the same as a blown call the first minute of the game then the same is true for a turnover or a made or missed shot. If Marquette is a 33% 3 point shooting team and make 4 of 15 in a game you can't call them lucky, even if the distribution is 1-11 and then 3-3. If anything, we were slightly unlucky (27%) shooting 3s for the game, and as you have pointed out, the ones we made at the end don't count any more than the ones we missed earlier. Same with Davidson's turnover in the final minute. If they had thrown the ball away a lot more than usual during the game you could say we were lucky- but they didn't. Conclusion - looking at the game in its entirety (not putting undue importance on the final minute) - we were not lucky. Agree?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 20, 2014, 09:36:55 AM
I bought it, haven't started it yet. Too much beer sitting in the garage that I have to consume first.
Nothin' worse than warm beer.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 19, 2014, 11:31:07 PM
Quite to the contrary. I'm a firm believer AGAINST that kind of thinking. When people say it's come up tails ten times the the next time the odds are it will come up heads...they're just wrong. The odds are still 50-50.
My problem with what you are saying is that when you say "at that point all that matters is the current play/call...it does decide the game" then you are willingly ignoring everything else in the game. You're essentially saying that nothing else mattered. Why even play the first 38 minutes of the game then, if ONLY that call matters? You are sequencing is really all you're doing. You are giving it more importance because time is coming to an end, but that doesn't mean you get to ignore everything else...yet that's what fans do.
This is the trap that so many people fall into. They put it all on the last play, the last interception, the last touchdown, the last call as if the rest of the plays, calls, etc are of no consequence and should just be ignored.
Think about it.
You play the other 38 minutes to hopefully put yourself in a position where you have the best possible chance to win. Worst case scenario is that after 39.5 minutes of play you are in a position to win the game.
Thus a tie game with 30 seconds left achieves that result, whether it was conducted in the most efficient manner is irrelevant at that point. That is why crunch time is so important, everyone has to be at their best when the pressure is on.
At that point a blown call destroys all the effort to get to that point, where you have a chance to win and does decide the outcome of the game. All the other bad plays are irrelevant, they were sufficient to put yourself in a position to have a chance at victory. A bad call steals away that chance and places the game in the hands of a bad official instead of the players.
A tie game at the end reflects both teams regardless of initial preconceptions battled to a perfect tie, whether due to sometimes poor performances/bad calls/unbelievable play by an underdog doesn't matter. At that point in the game the refs need to be perfect (not possible but they should try), a bad call does decide the outcome regardless of what your statistics may represent.
To bring it back to the coin toss argument. If you be a guy that out of 101 times there will be more tails than heads, it doesn't matter how you get there, but if after 100 times it is 50:50 the last call (flip) is all that matters. A bad call by a ref is akin to the guy swapping in a double headed coin for the last flip, it takes away your chance at a victory. Thus, it decides the outcome.
Quote from: MUtbone on January 18, 2014, 03:41:05 PM
Don't be alarmed if you think I'm blaming this one on the officials because I most certainly am not. We played like crap offensively in the second half and OT. Very disappointing.
I was listening to the radio feed and McIlvaine seemed pretty adamant about us not getting calls for elbows getting hit on three point shots and questionable defense on Jake. Just wondering if those of you who saw the game on cable thought since you actually saw it.
Marquette not getting calls on the road (or at home for that matter) is nothing new so it isn't an excuse for this team.
The thing about Burr's crew is that seem to let him make almost every call. I also think he is biased. At first I thought he favored the home team, but I think he either likes your team or does not. Last year I felt that he actually liked MU. This year he does not like MU and in particular Gardner. In fact refs as a whole are tired of Gardner, because he complains to much about being fouled.