MUScoop

MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: TJ on January 11, 2014, 03:21:47 PM

Title: Press Break
Post by: TJ on January 11, 2014, 03:21:47 PM
That was worse than 2005 and the Marcus Jackson experiment (with all apologies to Marcus - not his fault he was asked to play completely out of position).  Both Derrick and Jamil were deer in headlights in the face of a standard full court trap.  Glad we're not going to have to see a Louisville press this year.  It would have gotten ugly real fast.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: ATL MU Warrior on January 11, 2014, 03:27:25 PM
Quote from: TJ on January 11, 2014, 03:21:47 PM
That was worse than 2005 and the Marcus Jackson experiment (with all apologies to Marcus - not his fault he was asked to play completely out of position).  Both Derrick and Jamil were deer in headlights in the face of a standard full court trap.  Glad we're not going to have to see a Louisville press this year.  It would have gotten ugly real fast.
I think anybody would be glad to not face that Louisville pressure. 

Not sure what happened...poor execution of a good plan or a poor plan. 

Either way, you can't have 3 guys run to the other end of the floor and never come back to the ball.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: Lighthouse 84 on January 11, 2014, 03:29:11 PM
I'd rather see Todd bring the ball up.  He seemed to handle the ball today well enough and he can make a free throw.  Get DeWil out of there though at the end.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: TJ on January 11, 2014, 03:29:52 PM
You also can't pick up your dribble then expect to be able to step through and throw a pass to covered man.  Call a TO and get in the other 3 guys faces for running down to the other end.  The first TO was bad enough; the next two were inexcusable.  The PG and the senior leader need to take charge and make sure that doesn't happen.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: chapman on January 11, 2014, 03:32:23 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse 84 on January 11, 2014, 03:29:11 PM
I'd rather see Todd bring the ball up.  He seemed to handle the ball today well enough and he can make a free throw.  Get DeWil out of there though at the end.

Agree.  Very good handle and excellent free throw shooter.  He's got to be the first choice back there against pressure.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: tower912 on January 11, 2014, 03:32:44 PM
Two fundamental problems.   1.  Not having an outlet pass available behind the ball.   2.   Dribbling at the double team and then picking up your dribble without a plan as the double team arrived.   Yeah, that was ugly.  Should have used Mayo and Thomas.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: TJ on January 11, 2014, 03:33:23 PM
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 11, 2014, 03:27:25 PM
I think anybody would be glad to not face that Louisville pressure. 

Not sure what happened...poor execution of a good plan or a poor plan. 

Either way, you can't have 3 guys run to the other end of the floor and never come back to the ball.
Despite our record against Louisville I always expected that we could hold our own with them when we had James and co., or Acker/Cubillan, or even Junior to a slightly lesser extent.  This team wouldn't score 40 points if Pitino decided to keep the pressure up all game.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: AZWarrior on January 11, 2014, 03:39:40 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse 84 on January 11, 2014, 03:29:11 PM
I'd rather see Todd bring the ball up.  He seemed to handle the ball today well enough and he can make a free throw.  Get DeWil out of there though at the end.

Agreed.  When being pressured, at the end of a game we should sub Dawson for DeWil and let Mayo bring the ball up.  Dawson is better from the line (I think at least, heck - he must be) and he's much better offensively.  Dawson is looking better and better.  And I'm getting tired of Kevin O pointing out that our opponents often don't guard DeWil.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on January 11, 2014, 03:39:56 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse 84 on January 11, 2014, 03:29:11 PM
I'd rather see Todd bring the ball up.  He seemed to handle the ball today well enough and he can make a free throw.  Get DeWil out of there though at the end.

Last year I hated Todd's handle. He has really improved in this area. I'd like to see him at the one more often
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: TJ on January 11, 2014, 03:46:28 PM
Quote from: AZWarrior on January 11, 2014, 03:39:40 PM
And I'm getting tired of Kevin O pointing out that our opponents often don't guard DeWil.
They don't.  He's just doing his job and pointing it out.  Seton Hall made an extra effort to make sure they didn't bother covering him.  That baseline 10 footer in the second half he had time to go get some nachos if he wanted before someone was going to close on him.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: LloydMooresLegs on January 11, 2014, 03:49:53 PM
Quote from: tower912 on January 11, 2014, 03:32:44 PM
Two fundamental problems.   1.  Not having an outlet pass available behind the ball.   2.   Dribbling at the double team and then picking up your dribble without a plan as the double team arrived.   Yeah, that was ugly.  Should have used Mayo and Thomas.

+1 on both.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: AZWarrior on January 11, 2014, 03:54:38 PM
Quote from: TJ on January 11, 2014, 03:46:28 PM
They don't.  He's just doing his job and pointing it out.  Seton Hall made an extra effort to make sure they didn't bother covering him.  That baseline 10 footer in the second half he had time to go get some nachos if he wanted before someone was going to close on him.

Yes, I know.  I agree.  Kevin O's been pointing it out for multiple games now.  And when DeWil's defender sags it clogs up the paint and makes DG much less effective.  It makes it tougher in general to get the paint touches that makes our offense go.

The really strange thing is that DeWil's shot mechanics aren't bad.  I suspect it's a lack of confidence in his shot that makes him an ineffective shooter from the outside.  I'd love to see him drain a few of those wide open looks he keeps getting.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: NersEllenson on January 11, 2014, 03:56:14 PM
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 11, 2014, 03:27:25 PM
I think anybody would be glad to not face that Louisville pressure. 

Not sure what happened...poor execution of a good plan or a poor plan. 

Either way, you can't have 3 guys run to the other end of the floor and never come back to the ball.

You do realize sending 3 offensive players to the other end of the court eliminates their defenders from pressing in the backcourt?

You aggessively push against a press, and avoid the trapping corners near the timeline - you can push up the sideline, but as you do that you need to sprint one of the 3 guys in the frontcourt to the middle/halfcourt area - then dump to him before you can get trapped.  Walking the ball up the middle of the court as Derrick did is the worst thing you can do - ultra easy to trap that.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: tower912 on January 11, 2014, 03:58:40 PM
You realize in a trapping zone press that those guys aren't being guarded, right?    Have an outlet pass behind, have somebody come to the middle of the floor at mid court.   Pass to one of those two as the double team starts to form.  Press defeated. 
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: Lighthouse 84 on January 11, 2014, 03:58:55 PM
Quote from: tower912 on January 11, 2014, 03:32:44 PM
Two fundamental problems.   1.  Not having an outlet pass available behind the ball.   2.   Dribbling at the double team and then picking up your dribble without a plan as the double team arrived.   Yeah, that was ugly.  Should have used Mayo and Thomas.
i agree Mayo and Thomas would be best. They both shoot FTs well and don't get flustered by the pressure.  
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: TJ on January 11, 2014, 04:03:29 PM
Quote from: AZWarrior on January 11, 2014, 03:54:38 PM
Yes, I know.  I agree.  Kevin O's been pointing it out for multiple games now.  
KO has to assume he's talking to a different audience each game.  For one thing, he probably is for the most part.  For another, announcers would run out of things to say pretty quickly if they couldn't repeat themselves.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: brandx on January 11, 2014, 04:05:35 PM
Quote from: AZWarrior on January 11, 2014, 03:54:38 PM
Yes, I know.  I agree.  Kevin O's been pointing it out for multiple games now.  And when DeWil's defender sags it clogs up the paint and makes DG much less effective.  It makes it tougher in general to get the paint touches that makes our offense go.

The really strange thing is that DeWil's shot mechanics aren't bad.  I suspect it's a lack of confidence in his shot that makes him an ineffective shooter from the outside.  I'd love to see him drain a few of those wide open looks he keeps getting.

Problem is that in non-conf games there is not a lot of scouting so some teams will guard DW. We will rarely see him guarded the rest of the year, so it continues 4-on-5
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: TJ on January 11, 2014, 04:06:49 PM
Quote from: Ners on January 11, 2014, 03:56:14 PM
You do realize sending 3 offensive players to the other end of the court eliminates their defenders from pressing in the backcourt?

You aggessively push against a press, and avoid the trapping corners near the timeline - you can push up the sideline, but as you do that you need to sprint one of the 3 guys in the frontcourt to the middle/halfcourt area - then dump to him before you can get trapped.  Walking the ball up the middle of the court as Derrick did is the worst thing you can do - ultra easy to trap that.
Not when it's MU doing it.  You have to successfully make the long pass and easy layup occasionally or the defense won't respect it and now you're just trying to break a 3-4 man press with 2 guys.

I agree with your second paragraph about what they should do, but that's all theory at this point.  As it is, MU running 3 guys down the floor just makes the trap easier for the opponent.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: brandx on January 11, 2014, 04:13:25 PM
Quote from: tower912 on January 11, 2014, 03:58:40 PM
You realize in a trapping zone press that those guys aren't being guarded, right?    Have an outlet pass behind, have somebody come to the middle of the floor at mid court.   Pass to one of those two as the double team starts to form.  Press defeated. 

Agee - but DW is just as passive attacking a press as he is attacking the basket.

I was busy and didn't turn game on until 7 or 8 minutes left and the 1st time MU had the ball is a microcosm of their entire offensive problems. Juan had a wide open 3 and passed on it, Jamil had a wide open 3 and passed on it. Juan had another wide open 3 and passed on it. Eventually the ball was passed to Derrick 30' from the basket with 7 seconds on the shot clock. Derrick's first 2 steps were to back out toward center court despite no one guarding him. Then after being yelled at about the clock, he threw up a 25 footer. Clank.

That is our offense. We will not beat a good team all year if Derrick plays 35+ minutes a game. Dawson is green, but at least he plays basketball.

Now I am imposing a moratorium on myself about Derrick. Seems like a great kid and is doing the best he can.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: NersEllenson on January 11, 2014, 04:20:14 PM
Quote from: tower912 on January 11, 2014, 03:58:40 PM
You realize in a trapping zone press that those guys aren't being guarded, right?    Have an outlet pass behind, have somebody come to the middle of the floor at mid court.   Pass to one of those two as the double team starts to form.  Press defeated. 

It's never a good thing when you have to have an outlet pass behind the ball when breaking a press.  That is the first sign the press is defeating you - when you have to retreat against it.  Isn't the end of the world, but a team with a good PG rarely has to pass it backward against a press.  And I'm not saying Dawson would necessarily handle it differently than Derrick - but just feel at some point we have to begin playing an aggressive brand of basketball, instead of the let's not make a mistake brand of basketball.  Derrick is SO conservative, it simply doesn't lend itself to aggression and putting pressure on the opposition press/defense.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: tower912 on January 11, 2014, 04:32:51 PM
That press break was more on Buzz and Jamil than it was on Derrick.    Derrick should be smarter than to dribble into double teams, but he has to have passing options when the trap comes.  It was either bad scheme or bad execution by Jamil. 
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: willie warrior on January 11, 2014, 05:03:11 PM
Quote from: TJ on January 11, 2014, 03:46:28 PM
They don't.  He's just doing his job and pointing it out.  Seton Hall made an extra effort to make sure they didn't bother covering him.  That baseline 10 footer in the second half he had time to go get some nachos if he wanted before someone was going to close on him.
Exactly--they packed it in big time. De. Wilson is not even guarded.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: RushmoreAcademy on January 11, 2014, 05:05:01 PM
Tough to say whose fault that was.  You've got to go with everybody, even though we know Buzz obviously knows what he's doing.  Having an outlet pass behind him doesn't necessarily solve your problem, but may just prolong it... at the least I suppose it makes the defense make a decision, but that's not the solution.  You've got to pass before you get trapped.  We couldn't really see what the rest of the court looked like, but that would definitely give us a lot of insight as to what they were running.

Seton Hall hit some big shots, but the guys held on for the W.  They are never easy and a win is a win right now.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: ATL MU Warrior on January 11, 2014, 08:02:44 PM
Ners,

Agree with most of what you are saying here. 

Honestly, I think the press surprised them...didn't look at all like they knew what they should do and they clearly didn't have the personnel in the right places to be effective against it. 
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: bilsu on January 11, 2014, 08:54:13 PM
I think the first trap actually caught Derrick by surprise. after that it did not look pretty, but we did not really turn the ball over.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: MU82 on January 11, 2014, 10:09:20 PM
I wonder if there is another team in the entire nation -- great team, decent team, mediocre team or bad team -- that cannot afford to play its starting PG late in a close game because the coach knows he can't count on the PG to make a FT.

Seriously.

I wonder how many teams in the recent history of college basketball have had this situation.

Maybe when Gottlieb was at Oklahoma State? I don't remember watching him play much, but I know he was a notoriously horrible FT shooter.

Of course, Derrick isn't exactly the best PG at breaking a press, anyway, so perhaps it's just as well Buzz actually went with a PG-less lineup while trying to break the press in the final minute. Amazing.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: TJ on January 11, 2014, 11:32:02 PM
Quote from: willie warrior on January 11, 2014, 05:03:11 PM
Exactly--they packed it in big time. De. Wilson is not even guarded.
We've seen our share of our players being unguarded in the past (Dwight Burke is the only one I remember right now but I remember one year we were basically playing 3 on 5 most games), but teams (especially SH today) are taking it to a new level with their treatment of Derrick Wilson.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: TJ on January 11, 2014, 11:35:34 PM
Quote from: MU82 on January 11, 2014, 10:09:20 PM
I wonder if there is another team in the entire nation -- great team, decent team, mediocre team or bad team -- that cannot afford to play its starting PG late in a close game because the coach knows he can't count on the PG to make a FT.

Seriously.

I wonder how many teams in the recent history of college basketball have had this situation.

Maybe when Gottlieb was at Oklahoma State? I don't remember watching him play much, but I know he was a notoriously horrible FT shooter.

Of course, Derrick isn't exactly the best PG at breaking a press, anyway, so perhaps it's just as well Buzz actually went with a PG-less lineup while trying to break the press in the final minute. Amazing.
MU was damn close to this when Dominic James was PG.  He couldn't hit a FT either, but he could break the press at least.  I'm sure it has happened more often than you think.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: tower912 on January 12, 2014, 04:36:57 AM
Dominic James.   Tony Miller was not a great FT shooter, either, IIRC. 
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: NersEllenson on January 12, 2014, 09:20:50 AM
Quote from: tower912 on January 11, 2014, 04:32:51 PM
That press break was more on Buzz and Jamil than it was on Derrick.    Derrick should be smarter than to dribble into double teams, but he has to have passing options when the trap comes.  It was either bad scheme or bad execution by Jamil. 

But Derrick is the extension of Buzz on the court.  The 30+ minute per game PG should know what to do against a press, and how to attack it.  Serious question for you Tower - Is anything regarding this team's poor performance thus far ever Derrick's fault in your eyes?  Why do you think we are 9-7 and struggling to beat a depleted Seton Hall team at home?
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: MU82 on January 12, 2014, 09:24:57 AM
Quote from: Ners on January 12, 2014, 09:20:50 AM
But Derrick is the extension of Buzz on the court.  The 30+ minute per game PG should know what to do against a press, and how to attack it.  Serious question for you Tower - Is anything regarding this team's poor performance thus far ever Derrick's fault in your eyes?  Why do you think we are 9-7 and struggling to beat a depleted Seton Hall team at home?

I am going to jump in and answer this first.

Nothing is Derrick's fault. Derrick is Derrick. He is who he is. He is playing exactly as most of us expected him to play given the skill set he showed in his first two seasons.

Buzz is the one who puts Derrick in the lineup and plays Derrick 35 minutes. And if Derrick is the best Buzz has, that's not Derrick's fault, either.

Don't blame Derrick for being Derrick.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: WarriorFan on January 12, 2014, 09:30:26 AM
a) no D1 point guard should ever be surprised by a press
b) JW and Jake and Todd should have provided effective outlet pass targets
c) Derrick has the speed to break the press himself - like James used to - but his brain doesn't seem to work fast enough to get his legs going.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: MU82 on January 12, 2014, 09:34:10 AM
Quote from: tower912 on January 12, 2014, 04:36:57 AM
Dominic James.   Tony Miller was not a great FT shooter, either, IIRC. 

Fair enough. James actually was a 65% FT shooter his first three years -- not so hot but Mark Price compared to Derrick -- but then slumped badly to 46% as a senior. Still, I somehow remember him coming through with the game on the line a few times. Maybe I'm wrong and it's just my fuzzy memory wanting to remember good things.

Tony Miller shot 57% for his career, never lower than 51% in any season and never higher than 67%. Not good enough.

Derrick is at 49% this season and 47% for his 2 1/2 year career. If he had to come to the line in the final minute of a 2-point game, I would assume the worst. I am very glad Buzz agrees and gets him off the court.

Still, it does appear that there have been more bad FT-shooting PGs than I originally thought.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: ATL MU Warrior on January 12, 2014, 01:31:02 PM
Quote from: Ners on January 12, 2014, 09:20:50 AM
But Derrick is the extension of Buzz on the court.  The 30+ minute per game PG should know what to do against a press, and how to attack it.  Serious question for you Tower - Is anything regarding this team's poor performance thus far ever Derrick's fault in your eyes?  Why do you think we are 9-7 and struggling to beat a depleted Seton Hall team at home?
Some of this falls on Derrick...and some is on the rest of the guys on the team.  There is plenty of blame to go around. 

Is it really your contention that Derrick is solely to blame for our "9-7" record and our struggles to beat Seton Hall?
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: NersEllenson on January 12, 2014, 02:48:22 PM
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 12, 2014, 01:31:02 PM
Some of this falls on Derrick...and some is on the rest of the guys on the team.  There is plenty of blame to go around. 

Is it really your contention that Derrick is solely to blame for our "9-7" record and our struggles to beat Seton Hall?

Yes.  Mayo has basically taken over Vander's production from last year.  Lockett was a glue guy that didn't give a whole lot till February/March.  Everyone else returns from last year's team except Cadougan, and Derrick is getting all those minutes + some.  9-7 and struggles at home against Seton Hall and DePaul.  We tied for a share of the conference title in the rugged Big East last year...we won't sniff the title at this rate this year.

The PG is the most important player on any basketball team, as they create for all the other players on the floor.  When you have a PG that is so offensively challenged, it just multiplies the difficulty of the game on the other 4 guys.  Now, to that extent, Buzz isn't helping Derrick by starting him with Juan and Otule.  But those guys are only getting spot minutes, and Derrick and team are still struggling.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: GGGG on January 12, 2014, 02:54:44 PM
I think you are way underestimating what Vander and Trent brought to last year's team both on and off the floor. 

Trent by this point last year was regularly playing 30+ minutes....scoring just under 10...getting about 5 rebounds. 

I saw your post regarding Vander v. Todd, you aren't comparing apples to apples there.  See what happens after a full season.  Vander got better as the year went on last year.  The clear leader on the team.  Todd isn't there yet.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: NersEllenson on January 12, 2014, 03:10:03 PM
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on January 12, 2014, 02:54:44 PM
I think you are way underestimating what Vander and Trent brought to last year's team both on and off the floor. 

Trent by this point last year was regularly playing 30+ minutes....scoring just under 10...getting about 5 rebounds. 

I saw your post regarding Vander v. Todd, you aren't comparing apples to apples there.  See what happens after a full season.  Vander got better as the year went on last year.  The clear leader on the team.  Todd isn't there yet.

Guess we'll see how it plays out with Todd this year compared to Vander last year.  Regarding off the floor - Trent missed, yes.  Vander?  Questionable at best.  In my view, Burton could EASILY replace what Lockett brought to the team last year.  Give Burton 30 minutes and his production would greatly exceed 10 and 5 - plus considering he leads the team in steals and blocks in his limited minutes already.

Hopefully Derrick improves...was good to see him hit a few of those midrange jumpers yesterday.  If he can at least do that a couple of times a game, get us 8 ppg....4 assists....would help a ton.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: GGGG on January 12, 2014, 03:15:38 PM
Quote from: Ners on January 12, 2014, 03:10:03 PM
Guess we'll see how it plays out with Todd this year compared to Vander last year.  Regarding off the floor - Trent missed, yes.  Vander?  Questionable at best.  In my view, Burton could EASILY replace what Lockett brought to the team last year.  Give Burton 30 minutes and his production would greatly exceed 10 and 5 - plus considering he leads the team in steals and blocks in his limited minutes already.

Hopefully Derrick improves...was good to see him hit a few of those midrange jumpers yesterday.  If he can at least do that a couple of times a game, get us 8 ppg....4 assists....would help a ton.


Burton might be able to replace statistically what Trent did offensively, but Deonte isn't going to be given 30 mpg because he tends to do boneheaded things.  Like picking up fouls after missing a shot.  Like taking a "heat check" shot early in the possession.  That is why he hardly played yesterday.

He is going to be really, really good.  But the "basketball wisdom" that Trent brought isn't going to be replaced by Deonte this year.

Not sure why you think Vander isn't missed off the floor.  By all accounts that I have heard, Junior and Vander were the off the floor leaders of that team.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: The Equalizer on January 12, 2014, 03:24:28 PM
Quote from: bilsu on January 11, 2014, 08:54:13 PM
I think the first trap actually caught Derrick by surprise. after that it did not look pretty, but we did not really turn the ball over.

The suprising thing is that we run a press quite frequently, which means every player presumably has seen a pretty good press during practice.  I have to think Buzz uses that time to not only coach the defense on executing the press, but also the offense on how to break it. On the other hand, it sure looked like it was the first time our guys saw a press when Seton Hall used it.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: Daniel on January 12, 2014, 03:42:16 PM
Seems we give up the dribble too quickly on the press, move too slowly through the press which allows quick double teaming and really don't have the outlet players ready to vial out the ball handler. This could be fixed.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: ATL MU Warrior on January 12, 2014, 05:30:52 PM
Quote from: Ners on January 12, 2014, 03:10:03 PM
Guess we'll see how it plays out with Todd this year compared to Vander last year.  Regarding off the floor - Trent missed, yes.  Vander?  Questionable at best.  In my view, Burton could EASILY replace what Lockett brought to the team last year.  Give Burton 30 minutes and his production would greatly exceed 10 and 5 - plus considering he leads the team in steals and blocks in his limited minutes already.

Hopefully Derrick improves...was good to see him hit a few of those midrange jumpers yesterday.  If he can at least do that a couple of times a game, get us 8 ppg....4 assists....would help a ton.
You really don't think this team misses Vander?  Looks like your favorite whipping boy from the last couple of years still can't catch a break from you.   ::)

Vander is exactly what this team lacks in at least three critical ways:
- A guy who wants the ball in crunch time
- A good off-ball defender who could create tranisition offense with his defense 
- A guy that could create offense with penetration -- either for himself or others

These are all big weaknesses on the team this year and things Vander did very well.

Now, how is he not missed again?

Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: MU82 on January 12, 2014, 05:50:06 PM
Quote from: Ners on January 12, 2014, 02:48:22 PM
Yes.  Mayo has basically taken over Vander's production from last year.  Lockett was a glue guy that didn't give a whole lot till February/March.  Everyone else returns from last year's team except Cadougan, and Derrick is getting all those minutes + some.  9-7 and struggles at home against Seton Hall and DePaul.  We tied for a share of the conference title in the rugged Big East last year...we won't sniff the title at this rate this year.

The PG is the most important player on any basketball team, as they create for all the other players on the floor.  When you have a PG that is so offensively challenged, it just multiplies the difficulty of the game on the other 4 guys.  Now, to that extent, Buzz isn't helping Derrick by starting him with Juan and Otule.  But those guys are only getting spot minutes, and Derrick and team are still struggling.

For the jillionth time, it isn't Derrick Wilson's fault that he is only as good as Derrick Wilson.

But I do agree that what has become of the PG position is largely to blame for the woes. Trade our PG for any of about 7-8 others we have played this season and we have how many more wins? 3? 5? It's just too important a position to be manned by the guy Buzz has manning it. The combination of Buzz not recruiting and/or retaining a good PG in last year's freshman class and some bad luck in Duane's injury has played a major role in undermining a potentially good season.

None of that is Derrick's "fault." It's like blaming Otule for not being Anthony Davis.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: NersEllenson on January 12, 2014, 06:08:43 PM
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 12, 2014, 05:30:52 PM
You really don't think this team misses Vander?  Looks like your favorite whipping boy from the last couple of years still can't catch a break from you.   ::)

Vander is exactly what this team lacks in at least three critical ways:
- A guy who wants the ball in crunch time
- A good off-ball defender who could create tranisition offense with his defense 
- A guy that could create offense with penetration -- either for himself or others


These are all big weaknesses on the team this year and things Vander did very well.

Now, how is he not missed again?


Couple things - Vander wasn't my whipping boy last year - though I did have a lot of concerns and negative posts on him his sophomore year.

To the bolded points above - Todd Mayo does all of the above just as well as Vander.  Mayo has been a whipping boy for some here, can't recall if he's been your whipping boy or not - but Mayo's career at MU has been on virtually the same arc as Vander's - the exception being Vander got big time minutes his sophomore year, whereas Mayo's were severely limited by his academic issues.

Will not surprise me in the least if Mayo's numbers at the end of this season look a lot like Blue's at the end of last year - all while playing alongside our most suspect PG in 25+ years.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: tower912 on January 12, 2014, 06:10:25 PM
Serious answer.  Derrick Wilson is who he is.  The same guy many were calling to start over Cadougan a year ago.   I was hoping for more, but he hasn't progressed and isn't showing the scoring chops he did in high school.   Having watched almost every minute of every game, though, he still looks like the best option at point.   Dawson is progressing, but if you asked me 100 times (and I think you have) who should be starting at point, who should get the most minutes at point, and who do I want running the point in a tight game, the answer to all 3 would be Derrick all 100 times.    I am not dogmatic, though.  My opinion about who should be starting has changed this year from STjr/Juan to Deonte/Todd, along with Chris, Jamil, Jake and Derrick.   If the time comes where, IMO, Dawson is playing better than Derrick and I think he should be starting, I will say so.    But to borrow from 'Gladiator', ....not yet.....
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: NersEllenson on January 12, 2014, 06:12:01 PM
Quote from: MU82 on January 12, 2014, 05:50:06 PM
For the jillionth time, it isn't Derrick Wilson's fault that he is only as good as Derrick Wilson.

But I do agree that what has become of the PG position is largely to blame for the woes. Trade our PG for any of about 7-8 others we have played this season and we have how many more wins? 3? 5? It's just too important a position to be manned by the guy Buzz has manning it. The combination of Buzz not recruiting and/or retaining a good PG in last year's freshman class and some bad luck in Duane's injury has played a major role in undermining a potentially good season.

None of that is Derrick's "fault." It's like blaming Otule for not being Anthony Davis.

Fair enough.  I'm fine putting the entire blame on Buzz for continuing to ride Derrick 30+ minutes per game.  Dawson should have gotten more PT in nonconference - or Buzz shouldn't have given Dawson a scholarship - because as you post, trade our PG for 7-8 of the others we've played and we have 3-5 more wins.  It is evident early Derrick was going to struggle against decent PG's, and even the poor ones - so the prudent thing to do would have been to give his backup, some good quality run to get experience.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: NersEllenson on January 12, 2014, 06:14:52 PM
Quote from: tower912 on January 12, 2014, 06:10:25 PM
Serious answer.  Derrick Wilson is who he is.  The same guy many were calling to start over Cadougan a year ago.   I was hoping for more, but he hasn't progressed and isn't showing the scoring chops he did in high school.   Having watched almost every minute of every game, though, he still looks like the best option at point.   Dawson is progressing, but if you asked me 100 times (and I think you have) who should be starting at point, who should get the most minutes at point, and who do I want running the point in a tight game, the answer to all 3 would be Derrick all 100 times.    I am not dogmatic, though.  My opinion about who should be starting has changed this year from STjr/Juan to Deonte/Todd, along with Chris, Jamil, Jake and Derrick.   If the time comes where, IMO, Dawson is playing better than Derrick and I think he should be starting, I will say so.    But to borrow from 'Gladiator', ....not yet.....

Fair enough.  Just shocked at how one could come to that conclusion 100 times.  The more I've seen of Derrick, the more convinced I am that the team would be better off with Dawson getting 25-30.  Highly doubt Buzz will make the change, as at this point I feel Buzz is hell bent on trying to prove he can win with Derrick getting 30+  Dawson did nothing to show the team would be in any way worse off with him running the point against X, and in fact showed it likely would be better, as evidenced by how he had them down just 1 point with 5:00 left at X, and then Derrick went back in and we were down 8 with in 2:45.
Title: Re: Press Break
Post by: GGGG on January 12, 2014, 06:15:56 PM
Quote from: Ners on January 12, 2014, 06:08:43 PM
Couple things - Vander wasn't my whipping boy last year - though I did have a lot of concerns and negative posts on him his sophomore year.

To the bolded points above - Todd Mayo does all of the above just as well as Vander.  


That just isn't true.  Outside of outside shooting, there isn't a single thing that Todd does as well as Vander did last year.  He's bigger...quicker...better defender...takes it into a crowded lane easier.
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