Derrick Wilson leads us with 5 assists and 0 turnovers, is second on the team with 3 rebounds and everybody wants to talk about him and John Dawson. He's not why we lost this game.
Why did we lose this game? For all but the basketball stupid, that's easy. Our front court played horribly. We were pounded on the glass. No toughness from Davante, Juan, Jamil, Steve and to a lesser extent Chris. Embarrassing how badly they were pushed around. On a night when Xavier brought their absolute A game, we still win if those guys show up. They didn't. Davante seems disinterested if the ball isn't in his hands - horrible, matador D and no effort on the glass. Juan looks just totally lost. I hope Steve is hurt. If not, he's just not getting it either. And what can one say about Jamil? Dumb fouls, terrible defense (leaves his feet every time his man lifts an eyebrow) and no toughness. Chris is Chris. At least he gave an honest effort.
Enough already of ripping Derrick, Jake, Todd, etc. The back court was let down tonight by our alleged "stud" front court. They deserved better.
Yeah, Davante was just so horrible tonight, what with that 7-14 shooting, 5-6 from the free throw line, 4 rebounds and 1 foul. He was the least of our problems out there.
But at least Otule put in an "honest" effort scoring 4 points and grabbing 2 rebounds to go along with his 3 fouls.
Quote from: Norm on January 09, 2014, 11:36:09 PM
Yeah, Davante was just so horrible tonight, what with that 7-14 shooting, 5-6 from the free throw line, 4 rebounds and 1 foul. He was the least of our problems out there.
But at least Otule put in an "honest" effort scoring 4 points and grabbing 2 rebounds to go along with his 3 fouls.
While I agree Davante wasn't the problem, Lennys is right. It is embarrassing to get outrebounded by 19...especially when their leading rebounder sat for most of the first half
Quote from: Norm on January 09, 2014, 11:36:09 PM
Yeah, Davante was just so horrible tonight, what with that 7-14 shooting, 5-6 from the free throw line, 4 rebounds and 1 foul. He was the least of our problems out there.
But at least Otule put in an "honest" effort scoring 4 points and grabbing 2 rebounds to go along with his 3 fouls.
Gardner was horrific on defense and on the boards. He was very good on offense. Otule is a deterrent in the lane. Just more examples of talented but incomplete players on this roster. Jamil Wilson and Todd Mayo are the only guys with competence in all aspects of their position, but they lack consistency.
Quote from: Norm on January 09, 2014, 11:36:09 PM
Yeah, Davante was just so horrible tonight, what with that 7-14 shooting, 5-6 from the free throw line, 4 rebounds and 1 foul. He was the least of our problems out there.
But at least Otule put in an "honest" effort scoring 4 points and grabbing 2 rebounds to go along with his 3 fouls.
You obviously only pay attention when we have the ball. He played over 30 minutes (I think) and got 4 boards. Must have given up twice that many offensive rebounds to his man. Terrible and disinterested on D. And 1 foul just says to me he wasn't even pushing back or trying to box out.
Quote from: CTWarrior on January 09, 2014, 11:42:53 PM
Gardner was horrific on defense and on the boards. He was very good on offense. Otule is a deterrent in the lane. Just more examples of talented but incomplete players on this roster. Jamil Wilson and Todd Mayo are the only guys with competence in all aspects of their position, but they lack consistency.
Gardner was not "horrific" on defense. He wasn't great, but he was not as bad as you all are making him out be. Now Jamil Wilson, there was a guy who stunk up the floor tonight on both ends. And if Otule is such a deterrent in the lane, where are all his blocked shots? Where are all his rebounds?
Quote from: Norm on January 09, 2014, 11:48:10 PM
Gardner was not "horrific" on defense.
I have to disagree. I thought he was as bad as I have ever seen him. Lenny said disinterested and that seems right. There were times he just watched a guy drive to the hoop and did nothing to stop him. I do agree with you that Jamil Wilson did not distinguish himself on defense tonight. Too many ticky-tack fouls. I think he generally is a solid defender though.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 09, 2014, 11:45:47 PM
You obviously only pay attention when we have the ball. He played over 30 minutes (I think) and got 4 boards. Must have given up twice that many offensive rebounds to his man. Terrible and disinterested on D. And 1 foul just says to me he wasn't even pushing back or trying to box out.
Oh, obviously, if you say so Lenny. I just never pay attention to the defense we play, I'm only focused on what we do on offense. Its a team effort getting out rebounded by 19, its not all on Davante.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 09, 2014, 11:45:47 PM
You obviously only pay attention when we have the ball. He played over 30 minutes (I think) and got 4 boards. Must have given up twice that many offensive rebounds to his man. Terrible and disinterested on D. And 1 foul just says to me he wasn't even pushing back or trying to box out.
Gardner played 37 minutes compared to 15 tonight for Otlue. I agree with everything you said.
Jamil plays even a decent game and we probably win.
Quote from: MU82 on January 09, 2014, 11:56:35 PM
Jamil plays even a decent game and we probably win.
Jamil's problem was fouls this game. He only played 12 minutes. 5 points 3 assists in 12 minutes is great. Problem is he has to be able to stay on the floor.
Quote from: Norm on January 09, 2014, 11:48:10 PM
Gardner was not "horrific" on defense. He wasn't great, but he was not as bad as you all are making him out be. Now Jamil Wilson, there was a guy who stunk up the floor tonight on both ends. And if Otule is such a deterrent in the lane, where are all his blocked shots? Where are all his rebounds?
Yes he was. And if he's even trying to box out a little he'll get 10 boards in 37 minutes. 4 is inexcusable. I think 5 guys on Xavier had more than that and they didn't play near as many minutes. No argument on Jamil. Chris (I think) had 2 blocks in 15 minutes and also took a charge.
Quote from: Norm on January 09, 2014, 11:53:25 PM
Oh, obviously, if you say so Lenny. I just never pay attention to the defense we play, I'm only focused on what we do on offense. Its a team effort getting out rebounded by 19, its not all on Davante.
Not all on him, Norm, and I said as much. But if you didn't think he was terrible when Xavier had the ball we watched different games.
Quote from: MU82 on January 09, 2014, 11:56:35 PM
Jamil plays even a decent game and we probably win.
True.
Quote from: MU82 on January 09, 2014, 11:56:35 PM
Jamil plays even a decent game and we probably win.
And it seemed like things were starting to click for him just before he got that last foul.
Gardner pulled some serious matador D, but in a game where , if you're close to the play you get called for a foul, help D on the man penetrating is just a ticket to the bench for fouls. The only reason we got the points we did out of DG is because he did not help, so he did not foul.
I didn't read the game thread, so I'm sure this came up, the only thing that really disappointed me about the game was how they repeatedly burned us on the easy baskets after our baskets. I was really surprised that we couldn't adjust to that sooner. I know how athletic they are, but I thought that was just such a high factor and made it so tough to get any momentum, particularly in the first half.
The talent on this team is highly overrated. Frankly, on their best of nights, they're not very good. Don't really understand why anyone would think differently. Let's not make them out to be something they're not.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 10, 2014, 06:45:25 AM
The talent on this team is highly overrated. Frankly, on their best of nights, they're not very good. Don't really understand why anyone would think differently. Let's not make them out to be something they're not.
Not that he would have been a savior, but we really could have used Jameel's length a d rebounding effort this year, particular with Taylor limited. Just a bummer.
Quote from: WarriorFan on January 10, 2014, 06:02:01 AM
Gardner pulled some serious matador D, but in a game where , if you're close to the play you get called for a foul, help D on the man penetrating is just a ticket to the bench for fouls. The only reason we got the points we did out of DG is because he did not help, so he did not foul.
When the game ended he had one foul. It was a really stupid reach in the back court.
People who are saying DG doesn't play defense are absolutely correct.
As great as he is on offense, he hurts us on the boards and with his defense.
Well said, Lenny. Our backcourt did its job last night - not only Derrick, Jake and Todd,but Dawson had some nice minutes off the bench. I think he earned 10-15 minutes spotting Derrick with his play last night.
Our front line was another story....
I think basketball IQ as a rule is just not there anymore. Granted there are teams or individual players that still have it, but I that seems to rare these days. I do think our freshmen, including Wilson, are athletes that are also basketball savvy. The game has changed so much over past decade that is almost a different game today. I find myself struggling to watch whole games because of that. Hate to say it, but easier to watch UW than MU this year and not just because of the difference in records.
Game was lost on the boards. Plain as day.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 10, 2014, 06:45:25 AM
The talent on this team is highly overrated. Frankly, on their best of nights, they're not very good. Don't really understand why anyone would think differently. Let's not make them out to be something they're not.
Absolutely correct. This is nowhere near a good team. NIT might be a reach. I still say 10 BE losses.
With 1:06 left Gardner ball watches and doesn't box out Stainbrook, he gets easy putback layup. Ball game. I think that put us back down by 5, we get that rebound this game (maybe) turns out differently.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 10, 2014, 07:28:14 AM
Well said, Lenny. Our backcourt did its job last night - not only Derrick, Jake and Todd,but Dawson had some nice minutes off the bench. I think he earned 10-15 minutes spotting Derrick with his play last night.
Our front line was another story....
Our backcourt (DeWilson, Thomas, Dawson, Mayo, JJJ) 108 minutes, 41.9 FG%, 38.1 3FG%, 33.3% FT%, 10 reb, 13 ast, 3 steals, 2 turnovers, 35 points
Their backcourt (Davis, Christon, Randolph, Davis) 93 minutes, 43.5 FG%, 44.4 3FG%, 82.6 FT%, 8 reb, 10 assists, 1 steal, 2 turnovers, 43 points
Based on above, their backcourt probably outplayed ours, but not by much. With that discrepancy, I would expect our frontcourt to make up the difference.
The real issue in the game was that their frontcourt outrebounded our frontcourt 31-10. That is abysmal.
Not sure Gardner has ever boxed out in his life. When he plays 30+ minutes he should get more than 4 rebounds. He never gets defensive boards cause he is too lazy. Offense he perks up a bit and goes hard cause all he wants is buckets!!
Hard to watch him on defense and hard to watch Derrick walk the ball up the floor the final minute down 5-7 points.
Quote from: starting5 on January 10, 2014, 08:22:20 AM
Not sure Gardner has ever boxed out in his life. When he plays 30+ minutes he should get more than 4 rebounds. He never gets defensive boards cause he is too lazy. Offense he perks up a bit and goes hard cause all he wants is buckets!!
Hard to watch him on defense and hard to watch Derrick walk the ball up the floor the final minute down 5-7 points.
He doesn't go for defensive rebounds because he know there is no chance for a put back or an and one.
To borrow from Scott Skiles in regards to Eddy Curry...
Q: What could DG do to get more rebounds?
A: Jump.
Quote from: LancesOtherNut on January 10, 2014, 07:59:07 AM
With 1:06 left Gardner ball watches and doesn't box out Stainbrook, he gets easy putback layup. Ball game. I think that put us back down by 5, we get that rebound this game (maybe) turns out differently.
So Christon and the rest of Xavier draining their last 4 3-pointers from way downtown and hitting all their free throws down the stretch had nothing to do with the outcome in the last 3 minutes?
I just don't get the singular focus on Davante and folks claiming his lack of rebounds and defense were the reason we lost the game. I think some folks have come to take Davante's scoring for granted and focus solely on his defensive failings. Without Davante this team woudl struggle to score 45 points a game.
Quote from: Norm on January 10, 2014, 08:27:28 AM
I just don't get the singular focus on Davante and folks claiming his lack of rebounds and defense were the reason we lost the game. I think some folks have come to take Davante's scoring for granted and focus solely on his defensive failings. Without Davante this team woudl struggle to score 45 points a game.
It is not difficult for many of us to come to grips with the duality of Gardner. He is very productive on offense and very limited/detrimental on defense.
I agree with you that on a team that struggles to score, we have to have him on the floor, but that doesn't mean I don't wish he was more productive/enthusiastic on defense and especially on the defensive boards. Our frontcourt was outrebounded 31-10. Each rebound is a chance to take possession of the ball. That is 21 extra possessions for them. That is hard to overcome.
Quote from: CTWarrior on January 10, 2014, 08:37:14 AM
It is not difficult for many of us to come to grips with the duality of Gardner. He is very productive on offense and very limited/detrimental on defense.
I agree with you that on a team that struggles to score, we have to have him on the floor, but that doesn't mean I don't wish he was more productive/enthusiastic on defense and especially on the defensive boards. Our frontcourt was outrebounded 31-10. Each rebound is a chance to take possession of the ball. That is 21 extra possessions for them. That is hard to overcome.
The funny thing is Davante leads the team in rebounding this year, with an average of 5.8 per game. Otule averages 5 a game and Jamil Wilson 4.8.
Quote from: Norm on January 10, 2014, 08:27:28 AM
So Christon and the rest of Xavier draining their last 4 3-pointers from way downtown and hitting all their free throws down the stretch had nothing to do with the outcome in the last 3 minutes?
I just don't get the singular focus on Davante and folks claiming his lack of rebounds and defense were the reason we lost the game. I think some folks have come to take Davante's scoring for granted and focus solely on his defensive failings. Without Davante this team woudl struggle to score 45 points a game.
The singular focus on Devante is to deflect criticism for the rest of the pets out there:
Devante's defense is average--it is not poor. He is a big guy who allegedly has some weight issues, so it is the old grade school folly-- pick on the fat boy.
Anderson the alleged glue guy plys like he sniffs it, but no don't criticize him--guys blow by him all the time.
Ja. Wilson plays worse D than Devante with people blowing by him all the time--but nobody mentions that.
De. Wilson has been getting burned all year by PG's. He had 1 good D game 2 years ago, but little criticism about him. He is a defensive legend in some people's minds.
Mayo, another guy with a permanent scowl on his face and who lets guys blow by him all the time, but nothing said about him.
Otule who has 6 years in the system and is the tallest guy on the floor is reputed to be a stud D, but Stainbrook was schooling him, but nobody says anything about his lack of Defense prowess--by the way, he should be rebounding and blocking a lot more shots if he was so good defensively.
All of the guys I mentioned are more athletic and quicker than Gardner, but let's dump it all on him.
Where the hell would this team be without Gardner--about 6-10, instead of 9-7. Gardner's D is no worse than the rest of the above, but his "attitude" and demeanor do not meet the Hater's approval.
Let's face it Sports fans, this team has many holes, and Devante's D is a minor one compared to the other holes and what he brings to the table offensively. Gardner has developed himself as much in 4 years as Otule has done in his decade, but let's dump on OX--the fat guy is always good to be the whipping boy.
Otule is what he is and Gardner is what he is.
Quote from: CTWarrior on January 10, 2014, 08:37:14 AM
It is not difficult for many of us to come to grips with the duality of Gardner. He is very productive on offense and very limited/detrimental on defense.
I agree with you that on a team that struggles to score, we have to have him on the floor, but that doesn't mean I don't wish he was more productive/enthusiastic on defense and especially on the defensive boards. Our frontcourt was outrebounded 31-10. Each rebound is a chance to take possession of the ball. That is 21 extra possessions for them. That is hard to overcome.
i feel as though this is the problem with a majority of players on our team. they're only proficient on one end of the court. and because of these proficiencies (or deficiencies), buzz has a tough time trying to find the right combinations of players, playing time and schemes.
Quote from: Norm on January 10, 2014, 08:45:09 AM
The funny thing is Davante leads the team in rebounding this year, with an average of 5.8 per game. Otule averages 5 a game and Jamil Wilson 4.8.
i'm curious, what are the rebounds/min?
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 10, 2014, 08:50:15 AM
i'm curious, what are the rebounds/min?
For Gardner 0.234, Otule 0.272 and Wilson 0.194.
Otule has the higher rate, while actually playing help defense, too. Wilson has less, but he is chasing perimeter guys on defense a lot more than Gardner is, and should have a lot less. None of them are great rebounders, but at least Otule and Jamil defend.
Quote from: willie warrior on January 10, 2014, 08:48:45 AM
The singular focus on Devante is to deflect criticism for the rest of the pets out there:
Devante's defense is average--it is not poor. He is a big guy who allegedly has some weight issues, so it is the old grade school folly-- pick on the fat boy.
Anderson the alleged glue guy plys like he sniffs it, but no don't criticize him--guys blow by him all the time.
Ja. Wilson plays worse D than Devante with people blowing by him all the time--but nobody mentions that.
De. Wilson has been getting burned all year by PG's. He had 1 good D game 2 years ago, but little criticism about him. He is a defensive legend in some people's minds.
Mayo, another guy with a permanent scowl on his face and who lets guys blow by him all the time, but nothing said about him.
Otule who has 6 years in the system and is the tallest guy on the floor is reputed to be a stud D, but Stainbrook was schooling him, but nobody says anything about his lack of Defense prowess--by the way, he should be rebounding and blocking a lot more shots if he was so good defensively.
All of the guys I mentioned are more athletic and quicker than Gardner, but let's dump it all on him.
Where the hell would this team be without Gardner--about 6-10, instead of 9-7. Gardner's D is no worse than the rest of the above, but his "attitude" and demeanor do not meet the Hater's approval.
Let's face it Sports fans, this team has many holes, and Devante's D is a minor one compared to the other holes and what he brings to the table offensively. Gardner has developed himself as much in 4 years as Otule has done in his decade, but let's dump on OX--the fat guy is always good to be the whipping boy.
Otule is what he is and Gardner is what he is.
Davante slurper.
(Sorry ... couldn't resist.)
Quote from: CTWarrior on January 09, 2014, 11:42:53 PM
Gardner was horrific on defense and on the boards. He was very good on offense. Otule is a deterrent in the lane. Just more examples of talented but incomplete players on this roster. Jamil Wilson and Todd Mayo are the only guys with competence in all aspects of their position, but they lack consistency.
Mayo lacking consistency is an understatement.
Quote from: willie warrior on January 10, 2014, 08:48:45 AM
The singular focus on Devante is to deflect criticism for the rest of the pets out there:
Devante's defense is average--it is not poor. He is a big guy who allegedly has some weight issues, so it is the old grade school folly-- pick on the fat boy.
I don't think there is an inordinate amount of criticism on this board of Gardner's defense. Certainly not when compared to Derrick's offense, for example. In general, his defense is below average. I thought he was a terrible defender last night. Provided no help defense, which a center guarding the post has to do, and got 4 rebounds in 37 minutes. Maybe he wanted to avoid foul trouble, maybe 37 minutes is too many for him.
I also don't see where Stainbrook schooled Otule at all. Scored on him maybe once while being turned away several times.
Finally, I agree that Davante gives us a dimension on offense we can't replace.
Quote from: TJ on January 10, 2014, 09:04:51 AM
Mayo lacking consistency is an understatement.
Agreed.
Getting pounded on the boards should never happen to this team. Davante is just not a good defender. Last night was one where buzz should have been doing a lot of offense/defense switches with Otule and Gardner. STjr isn't recovered. Juan's confidence is gone. Defensive rebounding was embarrassing.
- DG's defense was brutal and really nulllifies what ended up, after a shaky start, to be a good night on the offensive end. His absolute failure to block out and contest that put back was one of two back breaking plays
- The other back breaker was after we cut it to three and got a quick defensive stop -- and Jamil picks up an offensive foul on the other end before we even get into the offense
- I have to think Taylor is hurt. The one place you can excel, and where he excelled last year, was on the glass, and he just doesn't have it this year.
Quote from: CTWarrior on January 10, 2014, 09:04:55 AM
I don't think there is an inordinate amount of criticism on this board of Gardner's defense. Certainly not when compared to Derrick's offense, for example. In general, his defense is below average. I thought he was a terrible defender last night. Provided no help defense, which a center guarding the post has to do, and got 4 rebounds in 37 minutes. Maybe he wanted to avoid foul trouble, maybe 37 minutes is too many for him.
I also don't see where Stainbrook schooled Otule at all. Scored on him maybe once while being turned away several times.
Finally, I agree that Davante gives us a dimension on offense we can't replace.
Excellent analysis. I agree with every word here.
Quote from: Goose on January 10, 2014, 07:28:54 AM
I think basketball IQ as a rule is just not there anymore. Granted there are teams or individual players that still have it, but I that seems to rare these days. I do think our freshmen, including Wilson, are athletes that are also basketball savvy. The game has changed so much over past decade that is almost a different game today. I find myself struggling to watch whole games because of that. Hate to say it, but easier to watch UW than MU this year and not just because of the difference in records.
Gotta agree. UW is so much more fundamentally sound. I'm so ready for our senior class to move, along with a couple others.
No... basketball not stupid. Basketball not alive. Player who play basketball maybe stupid. Basketball coach maybe stupid. Basketball fan who get upset at basketball player and coach definitely stupid.
Quote from: Norm on January 10, 2014, 08:27:28 AM
So Christon and the rest of Xavier draining their last 4 3-pointers from way downtown and hitting all their free throws down the stretch had nothing to do with the outcome in the last 3 minutes?
I just don't get the singular focus on Davante and folks claiming his lack of rebounds and defense were the reason we lost the game. I think some folks have come to take Davante's scoring for granted and focus solely on his defensive failings. Without Davante this team woudl struggle to score 45 points a game.
I was highlighting a key play that summed up his performance on the glass. The fact that Christon hit two 3s with Derrick in his face obviously hurts. But Derrick wasn't lacking effort in what he should have been doing on those two plays. The situation I pointed out showed Davante not trying to box out, and worse, ball watching. Something that a senior should not be doing.