MUScoop

Quote from: Jamil_toMU10 on January 01, 2014, 11:06:14 PM
I would also like to see Dawson get the minutes for a couple games to see how he performs.  I'm curious.  But I think it could be a lot worse.  Worst case scenario is that he doesn't spell any of Wilson's offensive struggles plus turns the ball over and plays poor defense.  

But if Dawson was lighting it up in practice and making plays....wouldn't he be out there more?  I just don't think he's ready.  There's no telling us that our heralded PG Duane would be ready (although I think he would be making a big difference).

Quote from: Ners on January 01, 2014, 10:58:23 PM
The time has come....make the change.  If we are going to get blown out by 18 points to Creighton, and continue to lose every game against a Top 50 team - let's see what the future looks like with John Dawson running the point.

I simply believe that it cannot get any worse with putting Dawson in for 30 minutes and seeing what happens.  Obviously, what we've been doing, simply is not working - and it is killing the effectiveness of Gardner, our most talented and consistent offensive player.

It's pretty much been a disaster with Derrick running the point - let's just see if Dawson could give the team a spark, a spark it clearly needs.

Who's on board here?

Quote from: Ners on January 01, 2014, 10:58:23 PM
The time has come....make the change.  If we are going to get blown out by 18 points to Creighton, and continue to lose every game against a Top 50 team - let's see what the future looks like with John Dawson running the point.

I simply believe that it cannot get any worse with putting Dawson in for 30 minutes and seeing what happens.  Obviously, what we've been doing, simply is not working - and it is killing the effectiveness of Gardner, our most talented and consistent offensive player.

It's pretty much been a disaster with Derrick running the point - let's just see if Dawson could give the team a spark, a spark it clearly needs.

Who's on board here?

Quote from: tower912 on January 02, 2014, 07:01:23 AM
BTW, Gardner is killing Gardner.   Otule's numbers haven't suffered.   How come he is still able to get passes on the block?   Oh, that's right, because he works hard for position every time, doesn't pout when he doesn't get the ball, and works for offensive rebounds on misses by someone other than himself.   All while playing defense. 

Quote from: tower912 on January 02, 2014, 07:01:23 AM
BTW, Gardner is killing Gardner.   Otule's numbers haven't suffered.   How come he is still able to get passes on the block?   Oh, that's right, because he works hard for position every time, doesn't pout when he doesn't get the ball, and works for offensive rebounds on misses by someone other than himself.   All while playing defense. 

Quote from: tower912 on January 02, 2014, 07:01:23 AM
BTW, Gardner is killing Gardner.   Otule's numbers haven't suffered.   How come he is still able to get passes on the block?   Oh, that's right, because he works hard for position every time, doesn't pout when he doesn't get the ball, and works for offensive rebounds on misses by someone other than himself.   All while playing defense.  

Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 02, 2014, 08:04:27 AM
Yep.  If Derrick was the main problem, Chris' numbers would have fallen too.  They haven't.

I wonder how long it'll be until people start blaming Derrick for Davante's FT% falling from 84% to 66%.  Or Jamil's for falling from 74% to 51%.  Our seniors are being looked to for leadership - Chris is doing his best, but Davante, Jamil and Jake have been disappointing.

If we're going to make a switch in the starting lineup, I'd much rather see JJJ start in front of Jake.

Quote from: tower912 on January 02, 2014, 07:01:23 AM
BTW, Gardner is killing Gardner.   Otule's numbers haven't suffered.   How come he is still able to get passes on the block?   Oh, that's right, because he works hard for position every time, doesn't pout when he doesn't get the ball, and works for offensive rebounds on misses by someone other than himself.   All while playing defense. 

Quote from: tower912 on January 02, 2014, 08:25:04 AM
Disagree.   Otule makes himself big when he posts.   Spreads his legs, puts up two hands, drops his butt.   Gardner puts up one hand.   Also, Otule does a much better job of getting offensive rebounds off of other people's misses.    Gardner only gets his own.   Otule misses, hustles back on defense, comes back to the offensive end and puts forth the exact same effort.   Gardner throws up his hands, gets back on defense slowly, then comes back to the offensive end and puts up one hand.  


As I posted elsewhere, in Gardner's defense, a lot of his points game off of penetration by Cadougan and Blue.   They would make the defense move, and with his great hands he would catch the dump off and power up against a recovering defender.   

Quote from: Hards_Alumni on January 02, 2014, 08:18:18 AM
What we see is the results on the court.  What Buzz sees is practice everyday plus results on the court.

Quote from: CTWarrior on January 02, 2014, 09:01:49 AM
It's frustrating because we have so many guys who talented but are 50-75% of the player we need them to be.  Derrick defends and is secure with the ball but doesn't initiate any offense.  Burton looks like he is going to be a great scorer, but is not yet interested in being a facilitator or finding the open man and shaky on D.  JJJ can score, but is young and turnover prone and shaky on D.  Jake Thomas is tough and can shoot, knows the defensive schemes and is effective on D, but is not a skilled ball handler and can't penetrate or get himself a shot.  Dawson is raw and untested.  Mayo is athletic, talented but very streaky and not a great passer.  Somehow, Buzz has to turn that collection of players into 3 effective guard/wings at a time.

Quote from: CTWarrior on January 02, 2014, 09:01:49 AM
I'll bet Dawson guards Derrick Wilson like he's a regular PG in practice (after all, Dawson is working on his defense) which makes Derrick seem more effective.  I don't think Dawson or Derrick is the answer.  I say try playing without a true PG and let JJJ, Mayo and Jamil share ballhandling.

It's frustrating because we have so many guys who talented but are 50-75% of the player we need them to be.  Derrick defends and is secure with the ball but doesn't initiate any offense.  Burton looks like he is going to be a great scorer, but is not yet interested in being a facilitator or finding the open man and shaky on D.  JJJ can score, but is young and turnover prone and shaky on D.  Jake Thomas is tough and can shoot, knows the defensive schemes and is effective on D, but is not a skilled ball handler and can't penetrate or get himself a shot.  Dawson is raw and untested.  Mayo is athletic, talented but very streaky and not a great passer.  Somehow, Buzz has to turn that collection of players into 3 effective guard/wings at a time.

Quote from: tower912 on January 02, 2014, 07:01:23 AM
BTW, Gardner is killing Gardner.   Otule's numbers haven't suffered.   How come he is still able to get passes on the block?   Oh, that's right, because he works hard for position every time, doesn't pout when he doesn't get the ball, and works for offensive rebounds on misses by someone other than himself.   All while playing defense. 

Quote from: tower912 on January 02, 2014, 05:55:21 AM
I watched the IUPUI and Samford games.   It could get a lot worse.  Marcus Jackson, Niv Berkowitz, Joe Chapman bad.   Losing to Louisville by 40 because they kept pressing up 30 bad. 

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 02, 2014, 06:59:04 AM
nobody with any sense.

Quote from: Ners on January 02, 2014, 09:57:22 AM
Funny, because I think it is total NONSENSE to keep playing Derrick Wilson 30 minutes a game, when it amounts to playing 4 on 5 offensively, and we have lost every game against a Top 50 team for the year as it is.

We have all the evidence we need on Derrick - throw Dawson out there and let's see how he does given 30 minutes and the opportunity to play long stretches of minutes and get in a rhythm...

It really cannot get worse.  Everyone wants to keep pointing fingers at Jamil and Devante not taking that next step up - it's basically impossible to do when you have a PG with the major limitations Derrick has.

Quote from: Ners on January 02, 2014, 09:57:22 AM
Funny, because I think it is total NONSENSE to keep playing Derrick Wilson 30 minutes a game, when it amounts to playing 4 on 5 offensively, and we have lost every game against a Top 50 team for the year as it is.

We have all the evidence we need on Derrick - throw Dawson out there and let's see how he does given 30 minutes and the opportunity to play long stretches of minutes and get in a rhythm...

It really cannot get worse.  Everyone wants to keep pointing fingers at Jamil and Devante not taking that next step up - it's basically impossible to do when you have a PG with the major limitations Derrick has.

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 02, 2014, 10:09:21 AM
Of course it can get worse.

"We" don't have squat, but you know who does?  Buzz.  If he thinks it is appropriate to keep playing DW for 30-35 minutes a game, that means he knows what Dawson can do and, compared to DW, it's worse...probably a lot worse.

I just don't get what you see when you watch Dawson.  He's tentative with the ball, unsure of where to go and who to pass to.  Defensively...can't really say but given that DW is pretty strong defensively he's not going to an upgrade there either.  

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 02, 2014, 10:05:38 AM
What has Dawson done that makes you so sure that he's a better player offensively? Since Thanksgiving, he's played 49 minutes and shot 1-5 from the floor and rarely runs the point. If fans want Derrick to see fewer minutes, they should be calling for Jamil to run the point with JJJ or Burton getting Derrick's minutes. At least those two have shown the ability to play meaningful minutes at this level.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 02, 2014, 10:11:14 AM
He sees a guy with "PG" next to his name on the roster who isn't Derrick Wilson. That's pretty much all he has to base his opinion on. 

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 02, 2014, 10:09:21 AM
Of course it can get worse.

"We" don't have squat, but you know who does?  Buzz.  If he thinks it is appropriate to keep playing DW for 30-35 minutes a game, that means he knows what Dawson can do and, compared to DW, it's worse...probably a lot worse.

I just don't get what you see when you watch Dawson.  He's tentative with the ball, unsure of where to go and who to pass to.  Defensively...can't really say but given that DW is pretty strong defensively he's not going to an upgrade there either.  

Quote from: Ners on January 02, 2014, 10:14:37 AM
He's shown me an ability to create good shots for others, advance the ball quickly in transition, see the floor well, not turnover the ball, and simply a much better feel for the game of basketball than Derrick.

Since Thanksgiving Dawson's high minute mark has been 13 minutes, twice.  The other games, 4, 2 and 5 minutes - some off the point. What is a guy gonna be able to show in such abbreviated stints?

Dawson hasn't come into games and launched shots - unlike say a Burton or Todd - he's played very unselfishly - so I'm not sure we can fully assess the quality of his scoring abilities.  What I can assess though is that he has GREAT court vision, and is a clever passer.

Quote from: Ners on January 02, 2014, 10:22:40 AM
Funny, because these are the exact qualities I see in Derrick Wilson, that I don't see in Dawson - Dawson is usually quite confident with the ball in his hands, and generally has gotten the ball to guys in good scoring position.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 02, 2014, 10:23:34 AM
Let me get this straight, we can't judge his offense because he hasn't been able to show much in his abbreviated stints, yet you're using what you've seen in those abbreviated stints to form your opinion that he would improve the offense if he played 30 minutes a game?

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 02, 2014, 10:27:39 AM
Then I have no idea what you are watching.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 02, 2014, 10:23:34 AM
Let me get this straight, we can't judge his offense because he hasn't been able to show much in his abbreviated stints, yet you're using what you've seen in those abbreviated stints to form your opinion that he would improve the offense if he played 30 minutes a game?

Quote from: Ners on January 02, 2014, 10:43:12 AM
You probably should have bolded the next paragraph I wrote to give you your answer to the above question.  In its simplest form, as I wrote in another post - Dawson looks a lot more like Junior Cadougan running the point, than does Derrick Wilson.  Dawson has forced action and tempo in his short stints in games running the point - why Buzz plays him off the ball with Jamil is beyond confusing to me.  As it was to play Derrick Wilson in the game against Creighton with Jamil running the point.  Does that make any sense??

The only logical explanation as to why Derrick could be getting all these minutes - the most on the team by a wide margin - 50+ more minutes than the next closest guys (Jamil and Jake), are because Buzz must feel Derrick's defense is so exceptional, that it offsets all the problems he brings to the team offensively. 

Quote from: Ners on January 02, 2014, 10:43:12 AM
You probably should have bolded the next paragraph I wrote to give you your answer to the above question.  In its simplest form, as I wrote in another post - Dawson looks a lot more like Junior Cadougan running the point, than does Derrick Wilson.  Dawson has forced action and tempo in his short stints in games running the point - why Buzz plays him off the ball with Jamil is beyond confusing to me.  As it was to play Derrick Wilson in the game against Creighton with Jamil running the point.  Does that make any sense??

The only logical explanation as to why Derrick could be getting all these minutes - the most on the team by a wide margin - 50+ more minutes than the next closest guys (Jamil and Jake), are because Buzz must feel Derrick's defense is so exceptional, that it offsets all the problems he brings to the team offensively.  

Quote from: tower912 on January 02, 2014, 07:01:23 AM
BTW, Gardner is killing Gardner.   Otule's numbers haven't suffered.   How come he is still able to get passes on the block?   Oh, that's right, because he works hard for position every time, doesn't pout when he doesn't get the ball, and works for offensive rebounds on misses by someone other than himself.   All while playing defense. 

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 02, 2014, 10:49:05 AM
Again though, in those "abbreviated minutes" during which can't tell you much about Dawson (by your own admission), you think that he reminds you of Junior Cadougan even though he rarely plays PG.

Buzz explained why Jamil was running the point with Derrick in the game.

Another logical explanation, actually the MOST logical explanation, for Derrick's minutes is because the viable options at PG are very limited.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 02, 2014, 08:41:05 AM
What many fans are overlooking is that Dawson wasn't signed to be the star PG. His role at MU is likely to be "the next Derrick Wilson." He's a back-up PG. Ideally, Duane would be seeing 25-28 mpg at the point with Derrick seeing the remainder and Dawson getting some garbage time PT. As years progress, Duane will continue to run the point with Dawson and Noskowiak battling for back-up minutes.

Derrick saw about 9 mpg as a frosh because he had a Big East body and the ability to play solid D and mistake-free basketball. Dawson has none of those things at this point in his career. He'll get there, but he's not there right now.

Quote from: Ners on January 02, 2014, 11:37:06 AM
I said you can't tell much about Dawson's scoring capabilities in the limited minutes, because he doesn't come in games and jack up shots like a Burton or Mayo.  You can see quite clearly, that Dawson sees the floor well, pushes tempo, and has some creativity in his passing and playmaking that Derrick Wilson sorely lacks.

If Dawson is really so bad that he's going to be such a downgrade from Derrick Wilson - who to any non-biased observer (such as the color commentators), can see has serious limitations as a point guard - then Dawson should have never been recruited to come to MU.  But, Dawson had offers from Creighton, and a few high mid majors as I recall.  Derrick Wilson is no better than a mid major point guard.  How much more evidence do people need to see?

What do we have to lose???  We already are losing all the games against Top 75 teams we play - and the 18 point blowout to Creighton was the worst loss of the bunch....we aren't getting better.  It is what it is with Derrick at the point...and it's not good.  Throw Dawson out for 30 and let's just see what the hell happens - it truly cannot get much worse.

Quote from: Ners on January 02, 2014, 09:57:22 AM
Funny, because I think it is total NONSENSE to keep playing Derrick Wilson 30 minutes a game, when it amounts to playing 4 on 5 offensively, and we have lost every game against a Top 50 team for the year as it is.

We have all the evidence we need on Derrick - throw Dawson out there and let's see how he does given 30 minutes and the opportunity to play long stretches of minutes and get in a rhythm...

It really cannot get worse.  Everyone wants to keep pointing fingers at Jamil and Devante not taking that next step up - it's basically impossible to do when you have a PG with the major limitations Derrick has.

Quote from: mu-rara on January 02, 2014, 12:06:39 PM
Yes, it can.  A lot.  If MU turns into a turnover machine, we will be blown out by hight

Quote from: Ners on January 02, 2014, 12:30:03 PM
Except Dawson hasn't been a turnover machine when he's played, nor have teams been pressuring MU full court as its been.  There isn't a high propensity to turn the ball over the way we are being defended - and quite frankly, I'd rather see a PG who is aggressive and a playmaker who makes a 3 turnovers a game, as opposed to the PG who does nothing in an aggressive fashion, and turns the ball over 1-2 times per game.

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on January 02, 2014, 12:32:40 PM

You are making the assumption that Dawson "is aggressive and a playmaker."

Quote from: Ners on January 02, 2014, 12:35:26 PM
Certainly more so than Derrick Wilson, yes, without a doubt. 

Quote from: tower912 on January 02, 2014, 01:01:22 PM
You make a good point.   I don't dislike Dawson.   I think that in time he will be better than DeWilson.   I do not see that time coming this year.   I haven't thrown in the towel for this season, either.   

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on January 02, 2014, 12:32:40 PM

You are making the assumption that Dawson "is aggressive and a playmaker."

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 02, 2014, 12:59:14 PM
You know what the worst thing is about this subject?

At some point in the future if Dawson stays at MU (I think we all hope he does) and has a great game or multiple great games (which we all hope he does), Ners is going to be on here telling us all how right he was all along. 

I predict it will be the mother of all "I WAS RIGHT" threads and just hope I don't go 3 for 3 in being quoted in those kinds of threads.   ;D

Quote from: mu03eng on January 02, 2014, 01:25:43 PM
I haven't read through every post, but has anyone provided one piece of actual in game evidence that would indicate Dawson will actually perform better than Derrick?  If so, what is the prevailing theory as to way Buzz would than refuse to play Dawson?

I think Derrick has the physical tools but for some reason have put together the mental aspect.  The answer is not moar Dawson, it is less Derrick at the 1 and more Jamil at the 1.  This also creates more PT options for JJJ and Burton.

Dawson will be a fine player for MU over the 4 years, but he ain't anywhere close right now.

Quote from: Ners on January 02, 2014, 01:30:06 PM
Don't worry about that ATL - never been my M.O., here.  I've never started a thread pounding my chest about being right about different subject matters - certainly have debated within threads certain aspects of being right about a player or prediction...but never would start a thread to glorify myself.

Quote from: Guns n Ammo on January 02, 2014, 11:52:57 AM
Also, if Wilson is as bad as you say he is, Dawson should be wrecking him in practice everyday, right?

Quote from: mu03eng on January 02, 2014, 01:25:43 PM
I haven't read through every post, but has anyone provided one piece of actual in game evidence that would indicate Dawson will actually perform better than Derrick?  If so, what is the prevailing theory as to way Buzz would than refuse to play Dawson?

I think Derrick has the physical tools but for some reason have put together the mental aspect.  The answer is not moar Dawson, it is less Derrick at the 1 and more Jamil at the 1.  This also creates more PT options for JJJ and Burton.

Dawson will be a fine player for MU over the 4 years, but he ain't anywhere close right now.

Quote from: CTWarrior on January 02, 2014, 01:34:27 PM
I doubt very much that Dawson is allowed to simply ignore Derrick Wilson in practice and just play freelance help defense like our real opponents do.  Derrick probably does plenty of driving and dishing in practice, like he does in the games where our opponents opt to play him straight up.

Quote from: Ners on January 02, 2014, 01:35:20 PM
I think the bigger piece of evidence is simply how ineffective Derrick and the team have been under his direction.  It's hard to have a "drop off" in production, when the "production" has been so abysmal.  We aren't winning games against the good opponents, just got handed our worst defeat of the season - so things aren't improving.  If nothing changes, nothing changes.

I do however agree that at minimum, they need to make a change at PG, and if moving Jamil there is the best solution - great.  It would open more time for Burton and JJJ to an extent, which are positives.

Quote from: Guns n Ammo on January 02, 2014, 01:42:42 PM
hmmm, that's interesting.

In practice, do you think Buzz is trying to get Dawson to play like an MU PG should play on defense, or is he asking Dawson to play like how the opposition would play defense?

Which would be more beneficial? Should MU constantly work on what MU does, or should MU work against a scouting report? (ie a "scout" team)

Has anybody attending one of Buzz's practices in season? (Paint touches?) Do we know how Buzz operates?

Quote from: BobWildLoyalist on January 02, 2014, 01:31:27 PM
Dawson will be a fine player for MU over the 4 years, but he ain't anywhere close right now.

Your making the assumption Dawson will be here for 4 years.

Quote from: forgetful on January 02, 2014, 01:31:47 PM
I don't think anyone is saying that Dawson would walk in and outplay Derrick.  I believe there contention is that given in game experience (playing time) he would develop quicker and then outplay Derrick as the season goes on.  Long term perspective then says it would be beneficial for the team.

I have no idea if this scenario would be true.  But I'm going to go with Buzz's opinion on our players ability, he tends to be much more intelligent in those regards than I am.

Quote from: Guns n Ammo on January 02, 2014, 01:42:42 PM
hmmm, that's interesting.

In practice, do you think Buzz is trying to get Dawson to play like an MU PG should play on defense, or is he asking Dawson to play like how the opposition would play defense?

Which would be more beneficial? Should MU constantly work on what MU does, or should MU work against a scouting report? (ie a "scout" team)

Has anybody attending one of Buzz's practices in season? (Paint touches?) Do we know how Buzz operates?

Quote from: Ners on January 02, 2014, 11:37:06 AM
Throw Dawson out for 30 and let's just see what the hell happens - it truly cannot get much worse.

Quote from: ElDonBDon on January 02, 2014, 02:02:50 PM
Bingo. 

There is no in-game evidence because he's never been given a real chance to play.  Practice, despite being the best replicator, cannot perfectly simulate in-game situations.

If Dawson isn't BE caliber, then why is he here?  If he has BE potential, let's let that potential be realized.

Bad teams can afford to be risky.  We are a bad team.  Let's roll the dice. We have nothing to lose.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 02, 2014, 02:04:15 PM
They may also have Dylan Flood guard Derrick by sagging off him and clogging the lane while Dawson matches up with a driver/slasher like Mayo.

Quote from: Guns n Ammo on January 02, 2014, 02:21:06 PM
Actually, you bring up an interesting topic.

I think Flood should get some minutes. He has the physical abilities if Buzz would give him some minutes.

He can't be any worse than (insert forward).

Quote from: ElDonBDon on January 02, 2014, 02:27:30 PM
Dawson is a scholarship player. Flood is not.

Quote from: ElDonBDon on January 02, 2014, 02:02:50 PM
Bingo. 

There is no in-game evidence because he's never been given a real chance to play.  Practice, despite being the best replicator, cannot perfectly simulate in-game situations.

If Dawson isn't BE caliber, then why is he here?  If he has BE potential, let's let that potential be realized.

Bad teams can afford to be risky.  We are a bad team.  Let's roll the dice. We have nothing to lose.

Quote from: mu03eng on January 02, 2014, 02:42:36 PM
Niv Berkowitz and Mbao were scholarship players....doesn't mean squat

Quote from: ElDonBDon on January 02, 2014, 03:24:29 PM
Correct. My "dawson hope" is contingent upon him actually being a true BE prospect.

I was responding to guns and his attempt to push the play-dawson-since-theres-uncertainty argument to the extreme. He is saying "well, why not play flood? After all, who knows, right? Hell, play me!" Im saying "no, thats foolish." There is a marked difference between dawson and flood.  We expended scarce resources recruiting Dawson. Flood is a walk-on.

Quote from: Guns n Ammo on January 02, 2014, 03:30:01 PM
You're point is correct, there is an assumption that Dawson has some abilities.

However, "I don't think it can get any worse" isn't a logical statement in almost any scenario in life, and I don't think it's correct when referring to playing time for division 1 players.

There have been a lot of D1 prospects worse than Derrick Wilson. I assume the Head Coach has a good handle on Dawson's abilities.

Quote from: Ners on January 02, 2014, 03:37:54 PM
How do you reconcile Gardner's regression?  Jamil Wilson's lack of taking the next step?  Mayo being the same player he's been?  Juan Anderson being the same player he's been?

Quote from: Ners on January 02, 2014, 03:37:54 PM
How do you reconcile Gardner's regression?  Jamil Wilson's lack of taking the next step?  Mayo being the same player he's been?  Juan Anderson being the same player he's been?

Are none of these guys improving - or is it possible that they all suffer due to our starting PG that plays the most minutes - 30 minutes per game - being totally ineffective and a complete afterthought defensively for the opposition?

Seriously - what high major abilities do you think Derrick Wilson has?  And don't cite he doesn't turn the ball over - because no team has pressured MU full court all year.  He has 3 assists FOR THE YEAR to Gardner (the team's leading scorer) in 14 games...

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 02, 2014, 03:41:33 PM
Gardner has a bad attitude this season and supposedly isn't working hard on his game. Jamil, Mayo and Juan have all hit their ceilings.

How's that?

Quote from: Ners on January 02, 2014, 03:37:54 PM
How do you reconcile Gardner's regression?  Jamil Wilson's lack of taking the next step?  Mayo being the same player he's been?  Juan Anderson being the same player he's been?

Are none of these guys improving - or is it possible that they all suffer due to our starting PG that plays the most minutes - 30 minutes per game - being totally ineffective and a complete afterthought defensively for the opposition?

Seriously - what high major abilities do you think Derrick Wilson has?  And don't cite he doesn't turn the ball over - because no team has pressured MU full court all year.  He has 3 assists FOR THE YEAR to Gardner (the team's leading scorer) in 14 games...

Quote from: Ners on January 02, 2014, 03:54:30 PM
Wonder why all of a sudden in his senior year, Gardner has developed a bad attitude that wasn't present in previous years?

But please, for once, please tell me why you think Derrick Wilson should be getting 30 minutes at the point for this team?  Do you like being 0-6 against Top 75 teams?  Do you like having a PG who shoots 11% from 3pt line?  Do you like a PG who has 3 assists in 14 games to our leading scorer and post player?

Quote from: Ners on January 02, 2014, 03:37:54 PM
How do you reconcile Gardner's regression?  Jamil Wilson's lack of taking the next step?  Mayo being the same player he's been?  Juan Anderson being the same player he's been?

Are none of these guys improving - or is it possible that they all suffer due to our starting PG that plays the most minutes - 30 minutes per game - being totally ineffective and a complete afterthought defensively for the opposition?

Seriously - what high major abilities do you think Derrick Wilson has?  And don't cite he doesn't turn the ball over - because no team has pressured MU full court all year.  He has 3 assists FOR THE YEAR to Gardner (the team's leading scorer) in 14 games...

Quote from: Ners on January 02, 2014, 03:37:54 PM
He has 3 assists FOR THE YEAR to Gardner (the team's leading scorer) in 14 games...

Quote from: tower912 on January 02, 2014, 05:55:21 AM
I watched the IUPUI and Samford games.   It could get a lot worse.  Marcus Jackson, Niv Berkowitz, Joe Chapman bad.   Losing to Louisville by 40 because they kept pressing up 30 bad.  

Quote from: tower912 on January 02, 2014, 05:28:36 PM
Why has there been no traction on the idea of starting Jamil at the point, some combination of JJJ/Todd/Jake, and then Juan (Deonte) and CO?  Dawson isn't ready.  I like the kid, but he couldn't get the team into its offense against IUPUI or Samford, for goodness sake.   If you are hellbent on continuing to tear down DeWilson, a PRODUCTIVE (as opposed to surrendering) thought could be Jamil and multiple guards, making sure one can guard the point.   Shoot, start all 3.    Starting Dawson = giving up . 

Quote from: tower912 on January 02, 2014, 05:28:36 PM
Why has there been no traction on the idea of starting Jamil at the point, some combination of JJJ/Todd/Jake, and then Juan (Deonte) and CO?  Dawson isn't ready.  I like the kid, but he couldn't get the team into its offense against IUPUI or Samford, for goodness sake.   If you are hellbent on continuing to tear down DeWilson, a PRODUCTIVE (as opposed to surrendering) thought could be Jamil and multiple guards, making sure one can guard the point.   Shoot, start all 3.    Starting Dawson = giving up .  

Quote from: Ners on January 02, 2014, 05:17:13 PM
Look, Derrick has been in the program for almost 3 years, and has been given EVERY opportunity to show and prove that he's the best option for running the point for this team.  He leads the team in minutes by 50 minutes over the next closest guy.  He isn't improving.  The team isn't improving.  He isn't the answer in the future.  The sample size is large enough to know - he is who we thought he was - a solid backup caliber point guard.

It does a disservice to the team, and Dawson, to not at least make a change for a few games and see what happens.  If Dawson is going to be a future contributor in this program, let's find out now.  There are plenty of freshman who are capable of playing, and playing solidly as freshman. What's the downside - we aren't competitive against the top teams as it is...

Quote from: Ners on January 02, 2014, 05:50:09 PM
I'd gladly take Jamil at the point for 25-30 minutes.  But the statement Dawson couldn't get the team into its offense against IUPUI or Samford is simply false.  I would take a 6 month hiatus from Scoop if Dawson were given the starting position (for just 3 games) and 25-30 minutes a game, and the team performed worse - which we'd measure by margin of defeat (since its a forgone conclusion we'd lose every game against Top 75 teams we'd play as we've already done with Derrick at the point), and since starting Dawson would equal giving up...

Quote from: MARQ_13 on January 02, 2014, 06:30:16 PM
I also like Derrick at the point but MU needs to do something to change the lineup. Why is buzz rewarding 2 players who abandoned the team in the summer/spring ? Realize Juan was in a bit of a different situation but jake was fully ready to take a major step down in competition. I find it hard to believe jake is beating out Todd and JJJ every day in practice. I would like to see that.

Quote from: Ners on January 02, 2014, 10:22:40 AM
Funny, because these are the exact qualities I see in Derrick Wilson, that I don't see in Dawson - Dawson is usually quite confident with the ball in his hands, and generally has gotten the ball to guys in good scoring position.

Quote from: mu03eng on January 02, 2014, 01:48:36 PM
So I'm fine with the Derrick needs to play less camp, but that camp needs to come up with an option that isn't play Dawson

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 02, 2014, 06:04:50 PM
Dawson did nothing to initiate the offense in those games.  Why do you think Jamil plays the point when Dawson is in the game?  

You have obviously developed your POV on the PG sitiuation, and I can respect that, but I think you are seeing what you want to see to justify that POV.  In an earlier game you imagined some offensive explosion that occured during a stint when Dawson was in the game where the lead magically grew by 10 points when Dawson was in.  That simply didn't happen.  The lead grew by 1.  You are not objectively watching the games.  You are, for lack of a better term, making sh*t up.  That's why not very many people agree with you.

Quote from: mu03eng on January 02, 2014, 02:42:36 PM
Niv Berkowitz and Mbao were scholarship players....

Quote from: BallBoy on January 02, 2014, 07:32:33 PM
You really don't watch the games.  Let's take the Samford game (game against less talented players).  Dawson gets into the game and brings the ball up the court.  He dribbles to about five feet from his teammate (believe it was JJJ).  He proceeds to casually and tentatively underarm toss the ball towards JJJ, nearly throwing the ball away.  JJJ had to run towards the side line to get it.  Luckily, he got there.  This was against no pressure defense.  For the next several plays, JWilson brought the ball up the court and Dawson played off ball until the next dead ball and he was pulled.
 

Quote from: Spaniel with a Short Tail on January 02, 2014, 09:15:57 PM
Anybody know why Dawson even selected Marquette? If I recall, Derrick Wilson was here and Buzz had pretty much made it clear he would be the starting PG. Duane Wilson had already committed. I never understood what was the attraction for Dawson. Couldn't have been the weather!

Quote from: MU82 on January 02, 2014, 10:40:54 PM
Ummm ... Leon's Frozen Custard on South 27th?

Quote from: Ners on January 02, 2014, 10:29:11 PM
I can probably get you about 10 examples of Derrick Wilson doing the exact thing you reference above...recall many poor inbounds passes from Derrick, a 5 second call or two, and some throwaway turnovers under no pressure at the top of the key.  If only Derrick would be pulled after 1 mistake.  

And yes, for the record, I watch the games closely, played the game extensively, and know that the team would not be any worse off if Dawson were playing 30 and Derrick 10.  The question is, would it be better?  That's what I'd like to find out.

Quote from: Ners on January 02, 2014, 10:29:11 PM
I can probably get you about 10 examples of Derrick Wilson doing the exact thing you reference above...recall many poor inbounds passes from Derrick, a 5 second call or two, and some throwaway turnovers under no pressure at the top of the key.  If only Derrick would be pulled after 1 mistake.  

And yes, for the record, I watch the games closely, played the game extensively, and know that the team would not be any worse off if Dawson were playing 30 and Derrick 10.  The question is, would it be better?  That's what I'd like to find out.

Quote from: MARQ_13 on January 02, 2014, 06:30:16 PM
I also like Derrick at the point but MU needs to do something to change the lineup. Why is buzz rewarding 2 players who abandoned the team in the summer/spring ? Realize Juan was in a bit of a different situation but jake was fully ready to take a major step down in competition. I find it hard to believe jake is beating out Todd and JJJ every day in practice. I would like to see that.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 03, 2014, 08:23:32 AM
Do it. Provide 10 specific examples.

Quote from: mu03eng on January 03, 2014, 07:38:25 AM
This is first an opinion stated as fact and an opinion that I don't share and I'm willing to bet a lot of people don't share it either, including seemingly Buzz.  Name one thing or one time Dawson has done ANYTHING better than Derrick?  Again this is not a defense of Derrick but the statement that Dawson isn't worse is just silly based on what I've seen.

Quote from: Ners on January 03, 2014, 09:39:54 AM
Buzz is just a die hard loyal guy to his vets, and that's it...it's the way he rolls.  Anyone really think Juan and Jake are better than Burton and JJJ?? 

Quote from: Ners on January 03, 2014, 09:30:05 AM

I'd estimate you'll get at least 1 e-mail from me every other game at minimum...

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on January 03, 2014, 09:50:58 AM

Is Juan better than Deonte?  No.  That is probably why Deonte's minutes have grown, and Juan's have shrunk, as the year has gone on.  Buzz is giving him more minutes because he has earned them.

Is Jake better than JJJ?  JJJ definitely has more potential, but Jake has done more in the games against quality competition than JJJ has.  JJJ was non-existent against Wisconsin, New Mexico, Creighton and George Washington.  Jake hasn't been stellar in a couple of these games either, but he played very well v. New Mexico and GW.  JJJ isn't getting more minutes because he has yet to earn them when it matters most.

You are trying to build a parallel here with Derrick and Dawson that simply doesn't exist.  Buzz isn't playing Derrick out of loyalty or because he's a veteran.  He's playing him because he is the best option.  Dawson hasn't earned anything.

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on January 03, 2014, 09:53:13 AM
You can sign me up for that right now. .5 stupid turnovers per game? What is Buzz thinking putting him out there?

Quote from: Ners on January 03, 2014, 09:39:54 AM
Fair enough - it is a fact, in my opinion...but yes, an opinion as are everybody's points on this board.  The primary thing Dawson does better than Derrick is push the ball in transition, see the floor better, and create legitimate easy scoring opportunities for the people he assists...namely Gardner.  Derrick has 3 of his 50 assists for the year to our leading scorer and most talented offensive performer.  It's a joke.

It blows my mind that some here are so convinced that our PG play could get worse if we moved to Dawson - we have a large sample size of what it is with Derrick at the helm, and its awful.  All of his supporters are grasping at straws trying to find ANYTHING they can to justify why he's on the floor.

Buzz is just a die hard loyal guy to his vets, and that's it...it's the way he rolls.  Anyone really think Juan and Jake are better than Burton and JJJ??  Who's third on the team in minutes?  Jake - just 3 minutes behind Jamil and 53 minutes behind Derrick.

I LOVE Buzz as much as any fan here, yet that does not mean I'm going to agree with him 100% of the time.  The fact he moved Jamil to the point, and moved Derrick to the paint/post was ludicrous.  You simply are moving Derrick's defender into an area closer to be able to help off of Derrick onto Devante.

If you have to resort to moving your PG to the paint area so that the opposition will guard him - that says all you need to know about how ineffective said PG is.

Quote from: Ners on January 03, 2014, 09:56:31 AM
Personally, I wish Buzz would just find out for real, and put Dawson in a couple of conference games for 30 minutes and at least get the benchmark diagnostic of what it looks like with Dawson running the show in a game.

Quote from: Ners on January 03, 2014, 10:00:17 AM
And if only Buzz would yank Derrick every time he makes one of his stupid turnovers.  A stupid turnover by definition is one that essentially is an unforced error, that occurs while not trying to make something happen....in other words a turnover that never should happen.

I'd much rather have a playmaking point guard such as Junior Cadougan, who commits 3 turnovers a game as a result of forcing the action and putting pressure on a defense, than a PG who rarely forces the action, and is simply a ball protector.  That is what a back PG is....a ball protector....someone who won't lose the game for you in their 10 minutes of PT, but certainly aren't good enough to help you win games.

Which brings me to another question:  What is Derrick doing to help this team win games?

Quote from: Guns n Ammo on January 03, 2014, 10:06:39 AM
If Buzz Williams is playing Derrick Williams 35 minutes per night simply out of loyalty rather than actual performance in practice and games, he should be fired.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 03, 2014, 10:46:56 AM
Earlier in the season, you stated that your ideal PG would average no more than 2 TOs per game.

By the way, where did the "3 assists to Gardner" stat come from? Not questioning it. Just curious.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 03, 2014, 10:46:56 AM
Earlier in the season, you stated that your ideal PG would average no more than 2 TOs per game.

By the way, where did the "3 assists to Gardner" stat come from? Not questioning it. Just curious.

Quote from: Ners on December 19, 2013, 10:43:37 AM
If Derrick can average in conference play, 8-10ppg, 5 assists, and limit TO's to 2 per game - I'd be very happy..and would get off his case.

Quote from: Ners on January 03, 2014, 09:39:54 AM
It blows my mind that some here are so convinced that our PG play could get worse if we moved to Dawson - we have a large sample size of what it is with Derrick at the helm, and its awful.  All of his supporters are grasping at straws trying to find ANYTHING they can to justify why he's on the floor.

Quote from: Ners on January 03, 2014, 09:39:54 AM
Buzz is just a die hard loyal guy to his vets, and that's it...it's the way he rolls.  Anyone really think Juan and Jake are better than Burton and JJJ??  Who's third on the team in minutes?  Jake - just 3 minutes behind Jamil and 53 minutes behind Derrick.

Quote from: Ners on January 03, 2014, 10:59:07 AM
I don't put a lot of stock in the stats a player compiles when they are getting 3 minute stints of action - that isn't relevant sample size to evaluate a player.

Quote from: mu03eng on January 03, 2014, 11:01:13 AM
Let me see if I understand your point of view completely.  Buzz Williams, a head coach at a division 1 school who has gone to the Sweet Sixteen the last 3 years is playing a player he knows to be inferior to others on the roster.  He is also playing that said player more than any other player on his roster and the only reason he is not playing other players is loyalty?  Dawson out performs Derrick in practice but Buzz is loyal.  Is this your contention?

Quote from: Ners on January 03, 2014, 10:59:07 AM
Ideally, yes, my ideal PG wouldn't turn the ball over more than twice per game - but I'd take a guy who turns it 3 times per game, scores 9-10ppg, assists 5 times per game, and shoots better than 11% from three, 55% from the FT line.  Oh, but let me guess, you'll now mention Dawson's stats - I don't put a lot of stock in the stats a player compiles when they are getting 3 minute stints of action - that isn't relevant sample size to evaluate a player.

Haven't seen Sugar's latest player efficiency ratings, but I'd bet the house that Derrick still is at the bottom of the team and by a wide margin - yet he plays the most minutes on the team??

The 3 assist stat was mentioned on the Scout board - there are many there who are equally frustrated and annoyed with the team under Derrick's direction.  

So, I'll relax on the topic and stand by my earlier statement - If nothing changes, nothing changes.  We aren't improving, things aren't getting better - we just got the doors blown off by Creighton in our worst loss of the season.  If anything, I sure hope Buzz moves Jamil to the point for 25 minutes a game and gives his other minutes to Burton and then JJJ.

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on January 03, 2014, 09:50:58 AM

Is Juan better than Deonte?  No.  That is probably why Deonte's minutes have grown, and Juan's have shrunk, as the year has gone on.  Buzz is giving him more minutes because he has earned them.

Is Jake better than JJJ?  JJJ definitely has more potential, but Jake has done more in the games against quality competition than JJJ has.  JJJ was non-existent against Wisconsin, New Mexico, Creighton and George Washington.  Jake hasn't been stellar in a couple of these games either, but he played very well v. New Mexico and GW.  JJJ isn't getting more minutes because he has yet to earn them when it matters most.

You are trying to build a parallel here with Derrick and Dawson that simply doesn't exist.  Buzz isn't playing Derrick out of loyalty or because he's a veteran.  He's playing him because he is the best option.  Dawson hasn't earned anything.

Quote from: 79Warrior on January 03, 2014, 11:16:04 AM
Completely agree. To think Buzz is not playing Dawson for any reason other than not being ready is just stupid. The reality right now is we are just F##ked at the PG position and that probably will not change until next season. Buzz and the coaching staff are just going to have to figure out a way around the problem. If not, we will most certainly not make the NCAA and perhaps the NIT. That is just the reality of the situation.

Quote from: Nevada233 on January 03, 2014, 11:23:14 AM
Theres nothing that shows "DNP dawson" is gonna play any real minutes this year so im looking past that.

So is Anyone against Jamil taking over primary PG and wilson back him up. That would certainly at least make the defense honest and have to guard him and Jake on the perimeter

Jamil (20-25 min at pg and Derrick 10 min)
Jake
Juan
Deonte (Good deonte not the JR smith my shots the 1st option and last option)
Otule

Starting?? Maybe.

Quote from: Nevada233 on January 03, 2014, 11:23:14 AM
Theres nothing that shows "DNP dawson" is gonna play any real minutes this year so im looking past that.

So is Anyone against Jamil taking over primary PG and wilson back him up. That would certainly at least make the defense honest and have to guard him and Jake on the perimeter

Jamil (20-25 min at pg and Derrick 10 min)
Jake
Juan
Deonte (Good deonte not the JR smith my shots the 1st option and last option)
Otule

Starting?? Maybe.

Quote from: Nevada233 on January 03, 2014, 11:23:14 AM
Theres nothing that shows "DNP dawson" is gonna play any real minutes this year so im looking past that.

So is Anyone against Jamil taking over primary PG and wilson back him up. That would certainly at least make the defense honest and have to guard him and Jake on the perimeter

Jamil (20-25 min at pg and Derrick 10 min)
Jake
Juan
Deonte (Good deonte not the JR smith my shots the 1st option and last option)
Otule

Starting?? Maybe.

Quote from: MU82 on January 03, 2014, 11:54:47 AM
It's as interesting a lineup as any. The main problem with it is that unless you're gonna play zone, somebody has to defend the PG. If the opposing PG has any quickness and shot at all, there isn't anybody in that group who has proven capable of defending him.

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 03, 2014, 12:01:00 PM
This isn't going to solve anything if the team isn't given the green light to start shooting the ball without a paint touch.  Sure, part of the problem is that Derrick isn't a good shooter.  Part of the problem (I think equally as large if not larger) is that the other team knows we're not shooting the ball from the perimeter until we get the ball in the paint.  So without the easing of the "no shot prior to paint touch" rule, defenses are still going to pack it in. 

The only thing that's going to change the defensive strategy against us is if we start showing a willingness to actually shoot the damn ball when we are open.

Quote from: forgetful on January 03, 2014, 12:12:49 PM
I agree with this.  The new paint touch rule is both putting us at a disadvantage (defenses adjusting to us) and is messing with the players heads to the point that they are thinking (did we get a paint touch yet?) instead of playing.

Quote from: Nevada233 on January 03, 2014, 11:23:14 AM
Theres nothing that shows "DNP dawson" is gonna play any real minutes this year so im looking past that.

So is Anyone against Jamil taking over primary PG and wilson back him up. That would certainly at least make the defense honest and have to guard him and Jake on the perimeter

Jamil (20-25 min at pg and Derrick 10 min)
Jake
Juan
Deonte (Good deonte not the JR smith my shots the 1st option and last option)
Otule

Starting?? Maybe.

Quote from: Nevada233 on January 03, 2014, 12:04:27 PM
It would most certainly have to be a zone defensive unit. Because I thought about what would be better than the 4 on 5 lineup we currently play with.

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on January 03, 2014, 12:31:22 PM

Says the guy who has advocated using a player with less offensive ability than Derrick Wilson.

Quote from: Nevada233 on January 03, 2014, 02:02:28 PM
You haven't even seen the kid play anything more than spot duty. How you know where his offensive ability is... I'll wait...

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on January 03, 2014, 12:31:22 PM

Says the guy who has advocated using a player with less offensive ability than Derrick Wilson.

Quote from: mubuzz on January 03, 2014, 02:19:07 PM
It is impossible for anyone to have less offensive ability than Derrick Wilson.

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on January 03, 2014, 02:24:19 PM

Nope.  You are wrong.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=john-dawson&p1=derrick-wilson

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 03, 2014, 12:01:00 PM
This isn't going to solve anything if the team isn't given the green light to start shooting the ball without a paint touch.  Sure, part of the problem is that Derrick isn't a good shooter.  Part of the problem (I think equally as large if not larger) is that the other team knows we're not shooting the ball from the perimeter until we get the ball in the paint.  So without the easing of the "no shot prior to paint touch" rule, defenses are still going to pack it in. 

The only thing that's going to change the defensive strategy against us is if we start showing a willingness to actually shoot the damn ball when we are open.

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on January 03, 2014, 02:24:19 PM

Nope.  You are wrong.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=john-dawson&p1=derrick-wilson

Quote from: brandx on January 03, 2014, 12:28:44 PM
Sounds nice, but what happens when we face full court pressure? Does Jamil have the talent/experience to handle it?

Quote from: mubuzz on January 03, 2014, 02:29:20 PM
That doesn't tell me anything about offensive ability between the two. It shows me one has had a lot more playing time and that is all. You should be on Wilson's payroll for all the time you spend defending him  ;D

Quote from: mubuzz on January 03, 2014, 02:29:20 PM
That doesn't tell me anything about offensive ability between the two. It shows me one has had a lot more playing time and that is all. You should be on Wilson's payroll for all the time you spend defending him  ;D

Quote from: mubuzz on January 03, 2014, 02:29:20 PM
That doesn't tell me anything about offensive ability between the two. It shows me one has had a lot more playing time and that is all. You should be on Wilson's payroll for all the time you spend defending him  ;D

Quote from: mubuzz on January 03, 2014, 02:29:20 PM
That doesn't tell me anything about offensive ability between the two. It shows me one has had a lot more playing time and that is all. You should be on Wilson's payroll for all the time you spend defending him  ;D

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on January 03, 2014, 02:40:26 PM

Then you aren't reading carefully. 

Quote from: Nevada233 on January 03, 2014, 02:44:20 PM
Paint Touches article

Is Derrick Wilson Helping or Hurting Marquette??

http://painttouches.com/2013/12/27/derrick-wilson-helping-or-hurting-marquette/

Obviously a more credible source is asking the same questions we been asking all season....
If this article even had to be written thats a clear indication hes not getting the Job done. Period.

Quote from: mubuzz on January 03, 2014, 02:50:15 PM
I read that Wilson has played 273 more minutes than Dawson and they both have made 1 three pointer. That is almost 7 more full games...now who has less offensive ability??

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on January 03, 2014, 02:55:02 PM

Dawson.

Really, you need to learn how to read something fully and completely.  It's not that hard if you have a Marquette education.

Quote from: mubuzz on January 03, 2014, 02:50:15 PM
I read that Wilson has played 273 more minutes than Dawson and they both have made 1 three pointer. That is almost 7 more full games...now who has less offensive ability??

Quote from: mubuzz on January 03, 2014, 03:00:40 PM
Well Mr. Education you posted a stat comparison. People will make different judgements and inferences from something like that. Not really something you can read fully and completely.

Quote from: mubuzz on January 03, 2014, 02:50:15 PM
I read that Wilson has played 273 more minutes than Dawson and they both have made 1 three pointer. That is almost 7 more full games...now who has less offensive ability??

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on January 03, 2014, 03:03:59 PM

Of course....I knew you would have another excuse.

Quote from: Ners on January 03, 2014, 09:39:54 AM
Fair enough - it is a fact, in my opinion...but yes, an opinion as are everybody's points on this board.  The primary thing Dawson does better than Derrick is push the ball in transition, see the floor better, and create legitimate easy scoring opportunities for the people he assists...namely Gardner.  Derrick has 3 of his 50 assists for the year to our leading scorer and most talented offensive performer.  It's a joke.

He made one pass in one game against a cupcake and you have been talking about it ever since yet you ignore every time that D Wilson does the same thing.  In that game against the cupcake (Grambling), Wilson had a better stat line in the exact same number of minutes.  You then exaggerate every time D Wilson turns the ball over.  You talk about how Dawson does all of these great things but they never happened.  Dawson doesn't push the ball better in transition or see the court better because he doesn't even take the ball up the court most of the time.  Just as an FYI, in the Grambling game which Dawson had the majority of his assists, Gardner only had 10 points.  

It blows my mind that some here are so convinced that our PG play could get worse if we moved to Dawson - we have a large sample size of what it is with Derrick at the helm, and its awful.  All of his supporters are grasping at straws trying to find ANYTHING they can to justify why he's on the floor.

Well, he has an better A/TO ratio, better rebounder, he has a better FG% and FT%, and equivalent 3P% as Dawson (DW is 1 for 9 while JD is 1 for 8 - Doesn't look like either is going to stretch the defense).  So the only thing Wilson doesn't do well is shoot the ball and Dawson hasn't shown he is much better at 2 for 12 against the lower end competition.  It blows your mind because you make sh*t up and believe it to be true.  Dawson has played 83 minutes you should be able to watch the games in fast forward and give us specifics on what he did well and do that in 20 minutes. I will even help you out.  Dawson has a total of 12 assists, he got 6 of them against Grambling State, 2 against CS Fullerton and 3 against IUPUI so now you only need to fast forward 3 games.   In the same games Wilson had 10, 5, and 5.  In those same games, Wilson has 1, 1, 1 TO to Dawson's 2, 0, 1.  Those games should be fairly comparable because Dawson got a run though he also got a run in Ball State and got goose eggs.  

Dawson has made a total of two baskets.  One against Grambling and one against GW.  


Buzz is just a die hard loyal guy to his vets, and that's it...it's the way he rolls.  Anyone really think Juan and Jake are better than Burton and JJJ??  Who's third on the team in minutes?  Jake - just 3 minutes behind Jamil and 53 minutes behind Derrick.

So you are saying the Derrick Wilson should have started ahead of Junior.  This is where the whole loyalty play started.  So if by this logic of Buzz playing people because he is loyal vs who is better would mean that Wilson is better than Junior.  I think we can all agree that isn't true.  I believe Jake is more consistent that JJJ but if you notice both of these guys get more PT than Dawson which means Buzz isn't giving the same level of loyalty to Juan and Jake as he is Wilson because he actually wants to win. Just an FYI but Juan only get .8 minutes more than JJJ and is 7th on the team. Where's the loyalty?!?  Deonte and JJJ are better players so they get the minutes.

I LOVE Buzz as much as any fan here, yet that does not mean I'm going to agree with him 100% of the time.  The fact he moved Jamil to the point, and moved Derrick to the paint/post was ludicrous.  You simply are moving Derrick's defender into an area closer to be able to help off of Derrick onto Devante.

So if Jamil's defender was in the post, he wouldn't be closer to be able to help onto Devante?  Last I looked I would bet that Jamil's defender is bigger which would impact Devante more than a small point guard.  Also Jamil is a better three point shooter that Derrick which means his defender won't sag into the lane and be able to prevent the pass into Devante.  If Jamil is an equivalent passer as Derrick wouldn't he be able to feed the post better and be a better option for a kick out pass.  Wouldn't Derrick be just as open next to the basket if his player helped Gardner as Jaiml would.  This is very much as stretch on your part.    

If you have to resort to moving your PG to the paint area so that the opposition will guard him - that says all you need to know about how ineffective said PG is.
What does it mean when you give the ball to your three/four to bring up instead of your backup point guard?

Quote from: mubuzz on January 03, 2014, 03:12:34 PM
How is that an excuse? You posted a stats comparison. My takeaway from that is it is clearly skewed to Wilson as he has played 273 more minutes than Dawson. You are obviously an eternal optimist and there is nothing wrong with that. I am a realist and realistically this team is terrible and that is due in large part to the shortcomings of our starting pg.

Quote from: connie on January 03, 2014, 02:26:36 PM
Buzz has been harping about paint touches for six years.  Amazing that all of a sudden this is a cause of our problems.

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on January 03, 2014, 02:54:14 PM

No kidding.

The issue isn't that Wilson is underperforming...it's that Dawson isn't any better.

Quote from: BallBoy on January 03, 2014, 03:13:05 PM

Quote from: Nevada233 on January 03, 2014, 03:39:34 PM
I cant say that about a guy whos got more DNPs than anything else.

With DuWilson returning from injury and Derrick coming back likely Starting as a Sr.  Dawson prolly will be playing....... Just at another school . . . #TransferAlert Jamal Ferguson part 2

Quote from: Ners on January 03, 2014, 03:44:36 PM
I'm not surprised your username here is BallBoy...stick to what you do best, chasing balls around for guys who can play and know the game.

If you've ever played a lick of basketball beyond 8th grade, you know that getting 9 minutes a game, which is what Dawson has averaged in the total games he's played, and usually that 9 minutes of time is broken up into three, 3-minute segments - you'd know it's next to impossible to put up impressive stat lines.

Derrick is the leader in minutes played by a long shot, and his production is basically the worst on the team.  We know what Derrick can do in 30 minutes of action - about 4ppg, 4 assists, 2 turnovers - all while basically never being defended on the perimeter where he spends 95% of his time.  It's a joke.

If Dawson is so much worse than Derrick - then he doesn't belong at a high major school - and that is on the coaching staff. 

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on January 03, 2014, 03:47:03 PM

Well, I'm not missing Jamal.  I think Dawson is much better than that.

Quote from: Nevada233 on January 03, 2014, 03:49:35 PM
Sultan, I hope so and over time He should be better. Jamal just left and is where now. Lol nobody knows.

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on January 03, 2014, 03:47:03 PM

Well, I'm not missing Jamal.  I think Dawson is much better than that.

Quote from: mubuzz on January 03, 2014, 02:50:15 PM
I read that Wilson has played 273 more minutes than Dawson and they both have made 1 three pointer. That is almost 7 more full games...now who has less offensive ability??

Quote from: mu03eng on January 03, 2014, 03:52:58 PM
You do realize that in 7 more full games Wilson took one less shot then Dawson from 3?  So per game Dawson is pulling more often at a nearly identical success rate.  That's what Sultan means by fully understanding what you are reading.

Just to do the math for you, Derrick has 16 games with one made 3 and 9 attempts.  Assuming Dawson had the same 16 games it would project out to two made on fourteen attempts (roughly).  That's what we "need"?

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 03, 2014, 03:27:38 PM
This is true.  And it has always been frustrating to watch guys that are pretty capable shooters turn down wide open looks.

However, I don't think we've ever seen defenses packing it in against us like we are seeing this year.  This is of course due to a combination of things: the paint touch philosophy as well as the limitations of the players we have this year.  The question becomes, with these players being the guys Buzz is going to ride, what adjustments can we make to open up the paint so that we can get some interior offense going and get some kind of flow in the offense?

My answer:  Let the guys take the first good perimeter shot, whether they have gotten ball into the paint or not.  We don't shoot the three very well so this probably seems counter-intuitive.  However, we'll likely make enough that other teams have to respect it.  Once they start feeling like they have to cover the shooter (because, you know what, he might actually shoot the ball) the interior will open back up.  The shots we don't make -- I like our odds at scrapping for some offensive rebounds given that our rebounding and front line is supposed to be a strength for us.  

I'm not advocating that we turn into a bunch of chuckers, but it is painfully clear that this deliberate working of the ball into the paint isn't working this year.  We have enough guys that are good enough shooters to make this a reasonable approach.  Time to make some adjustments to offensive philosophy, Buzz.

I like this approach much better than just starting somebody else because they *might* be better, even though they haven't shown it.

Quote from: Ners on January 03, 2014, 03:58:33 PM
And I fully understand if you have a PG who is afraid to shoot a 3, it results in the defender collapsing to the paint shutting off drives and paint touches, while also allowing a guy to shadow our 2 guard at all times, as there is no risk of the PG beating his defender off the dribble and forcing help.

So, I've said it before, I'd much rather see Derrick launch 5, 3's per game, and if he makes just 1.5 of the 5....he will be helping the offense flow better as teams will have to start to guard him a little more on the perimeter.

Quote from: Ners on January 03, 2014, 03:58:33 PM
And I fully understand if you have a PG who is afraid to shoot a 3, it results in the defender collapsing to the paint shutting off drives and paint touches, while also allowing a guy to shadow our 2 guard at all times, as there is no risk of the PG beating his defender off the dribble and forcing help.

So, I've said it before, I'd much rather see Derrick launch 5, 3's per game, and if he makes just 1.5 of the 5....he will be helping the offense flow better as teams will have to start to guard him a little more on the perimeter.

Quote from: Guns n Ammo on January 03, 2014, 04:37:08 PM
MU needs Derrick to shoot (and miss) more jumpshots to help the offense?

If that's what MU needs, then they should play Todd, not Dawson. Todd will happily chuck up 5 3's a game with no conscience.

Quote from: Nevada233 on January 03, 2014, 04:41:59 PM
Todd Mayo = J.R. Smith..... Brick brick brick. All night long. We dont need that

Quote from: Ners on January 03, 2014, 03:44:36 PM
I'm not surprised your username here is BallBoy...stick to what you do best, chasing balls around for guys who can play and know the game.

If you've ever played a lick of basketball beyond 8th grade, you know that getting 9 minutes a game, which is what Dawson has averaged in the total games he's played, and usually that 9 minutes of time is broken up into three, 3-minute segments - you'd know it's next to impossible to put up impressive stat lines.

Quote from: BallBoy on January 03, 2014, 05:03:15 PM
Thank you.  I guess when you can't win you start to name call.  I did play beyond 8th grade though I will admit I only played intramural ball in college.  Which starter on the Marquette team were you?  

If you have as extensive of basketball experience as you say, why is that he is only getting 3 minute sprints?  1.) Conditioning, 2.) Skill set, 3.) the coach doesn't like you but you are the better player.  One is the excuse of a loser who doesn't want to admit 1 or 2 is true.  Seeing how that is your go it tells me about your extensive experience.  

In the Grambling game against equal talent with the same number of minutes and breaks.  Wilson played better.  In the CS Fullerton game where Wilson only had 11 more minutes (24) and Dawson got above his average (13).  Wilson had a significantly better stat line.  In the IUPUI game where Wilson had 22 minutes and Dawson got 13 minutes.  Wilson had a better stat line.  

If you are only getting 3 minute sprints, you are only there because you are giving a better player a breather or they are in foul trouble.  There is plenty of track record to show this.    

Quote from: Guns n Ammo on January 03, 2014, 05:02:44 PM
Wellll,

Derrick isn't a good shooter, so that's not the answer.

Maybe Dawson can shoot!

BUT

Buzz sees these kids practice everyday. What if he sees that Dawson is clearly worse at shooting than Derrick? Is Dawson still an option?

WE, (internet nerds) don't know because Dawson doesn't play. However, Buzz Williams knows because he watches Dawson everyday.

Quote from: Nevada233 on January 03, 2014, 06:04:50 PM
Right and im sure Buzz or one of his Assistants or Dozens of staff reads these blogs. Theres no way they have no idea what the fans are saying.

Quote from: connie on January 03, 2014, 06:28:16 PM
I have heard Buzz directly state that he doesn't read any blogs. 

Quote from: connie on January 03, 2014, 06:28:16 PM
I have heard Buzz directly state that he doesn't read any blogs.  Honestly, I would be disappointed if he did.  The idea that Buzz might take my basketball advice is pretty depressing.

Quote from: jesmu84 on January 03, 2014, 08:21:53 PM
Why is it so hard for some to believe that Derrick is playing exactly how Buzz is wanting/asking him to play? What if Buzz said: "Derrick, I want you to play hard on defense and slow the game down so we work 100% in the halfcourt?" And you've got posters here berating Derrick for no transition game. I certainly don't know what directions Derrick is being given, and neither do you. What if Buzz is telling Derrick not to shoot any 3s? It seems pretty obvious to me that Buzz is telling the teams something about shooting as I haven't seen nearly the number of trailing 3s that Lazar and Crowder used to take.

And the argument of "play Dawson for 30 minutes so we can get a baseline" is just absurd. No coach, team or player should ever be expected to go though that for any reason. It seems to just be a please-some-disgruntled-fans idea.

Quote from: jesmu84 on January 03, 2014, 08:21:53 PM
Why is it so hard for some to believe that Derrick is playing exactly how Buzz is wanting/asking him to play? What if Buzz said: "Derrick, I want you to play hard on defense and slow the game down so we work 100% in the halfcourt?" And you've got posters here berating Derrick for no transition game. I certainly don't know what directions Derrick is being given, and neither do you. What if Buzz is telling Derrick not to shoot any 3s? It seems pretty obvious to me that Buzz is telling the teams something about shooting as I haven't seen nearly the number of trailing 3s that Lazar and Crowder used to take.

And the argument of "play Dawson for 30 minutes so we can get a baseline" is just absurd. No coach, team or player should ever be expected to go though that for any reason. It seems to just be a please-some-disgruntled-fans idea.

Quote from: mubuzz on January 03, 2014, 10:08:48 PM
So your saying that Buzz wants him to play like crap? Because that's how he's playing...and no team wants to play 100 percent from the half court. If you notice when we play inferior competition he does try and push it, that's why that argument doesn't make sense.

Quote from: mubuzz on January 03, 2014, 10:08:48 PM
So your saying that Buzz wants him to play like crap? Because that's how he's playing...and no team wants to play 100 percent from the half court. If you notice when we play inferior competition he does try and push it, that's why that argument doesn't make sense.

Quote from: keefe on January 03, 2014, 08:26:17 PM
Because we are not competitive against any school in a major conference, which now includes the Mountain West. 

Quote from: Goose on January 04, 2014, 07:04:10 AM
Times are tough if an 8 page thread on John Dawson.

Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 04, 2014, 09:45:58 AM
No kidding.  I can't wait to see how many pages Ners gets when he begins the "start Dylan Flood" thread.

Quote from: jesmu84 on January 03, 2014, 08:21:53 PM
Why is it so hard for some to believe that Derrick is playing exactly how Buzz is wanting/asking him to play? What if Buzz said: "Derrick, I want you to play hard on defense and slow the game down so we work 100% in the halfcourt?" And you've got posters here berating Derrick for no transition game. I certainly don't know what directions Derrick is being given, and neither do you. What if Buzz is telling Derrick not to shoot any 3s? It seems pretty obvious to me that Buzz is telling the teams something about shooting as I haven't seen nearly the number of trailing 3s that Lazar and Crowder used to take.

And the argument of "play Dawson for 30 minutes so we can get a baseline" is just absurd. No coach, team or player should ever be expected to go though that for any reason. It seems to just be a please-some-disgruntled-fans idea.

Quote from: Goose on January 04, 2014, 11:09:00 AM
Ners,
I agree on Wilson but Dawson can't play a lick either. Our best two guard is JJJ and Jamil is best PG. Dawson is not the answer IMO.

Quote from: Ners on January 04, 2014, 11:06:55 AM
Sorry Gooo, but you and a few others are simply in denial as to how bad Derrick's "performance" is negatively impacting this team.  Virtually every team wants to score in transition - against a defense that isn't set - no coach would advocate not pushing the ball off of missed shots - particularly if you have a team of decent athletes.  You slow the pace when you are severely undermanned/undertalented - which we are not, other than at the PG position.

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 04, 2014, 11:15:14 AM
Or you slow the pace when your "best" player is an overweight, slow-footed post player and you want to actually have him involved in the offense.  It is not as simple as what you are saying.

Derrick has been pushing the ball the last few games, but it is rare that there is anybody there with him other than a couple of guys from the other team.  That is not a coincidence, it is a choice/decision made by the coaching staff on style of play.

Quote from: Ners on January 04, 2014, 11:30:26 AM
Sure, but what's the point of that when you get in the halfcourt and that "best, slow footed" post player faces constant double teams due to having a PG that doesn't need to be defended?

And sorry, but no coaching staff doesn't want to score points in transition, especially when playing 4 on 5 in the halfcourt game.  And those are Buzz's words, not some made up b.s.  Buzz knows it, sees it, realizes it - at some point I suspect he'll make the change as he'll come to the conclusion that as much as he likes Derrick as a kid - the team simply cannot win against top opponents with him getting 30 minutes of run at PG.

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 04, 2014, 11:35:35 AM
The point is that Buzz likely thinks that's the way the team can win and is telling them to play that way. 

I hope for all of our sakes that rather than inserting an unproven freshman PG for 30 minutes a game, that Buzz loosens the reins and lets the guys play.  I don't think the whole paint touches philosophy is working for the group of guys that we have this year.

Quote from: Ners on January 04, 2014, 11:47:11 AM
Agree to disagree on the bolded.  And has Buzz explicitly said NO shots can be taken without a paint touch?  If so, when did he say that?  I simply cannot believe that if Jake Thomas had a wide open 3, or the other guys with 10 toes to the line - that Buzz is coaching them to not shoot those shots.

On another note, why do you think the whole paint touches strategy isn't working this year, when it has worked so well in past years?  Pretty sure we were last in the Big East last year in 3 pt shooting percentage, yet still got to the Elite 8 and were good enough to win a share of the former Big East Conference regular season championship.  So let's not say the paint touches strategy worked last year because we were a better shooting perimeter team....there is one and only one answer as to why things aren't working this year and it's the PG getting 30 minutes a game.  Period.

Quote from: Ners on January 04, 2014, 11:47:11 AM
Agree to disagree on the bolded.  And has Buzz explicitly said NO shots can be taken without a paint touch?  If so, when did he say that?  I simply cannot believe that if Jake Thomas had a wide open 3, or the other guys with 10 toes to the line - that Buzz is coaching them to not shoot those shots.

On another note, why do you think the whole paint touches strategy isn't working this year, when it has worked so well in past years?  Pretty sure we were last in the Big East last year in 3 pt shooting percentage, yet still got to the Elite 8 and were good enough to win a share of the former Big East Conference regular season championship.  So let's not say the paint touches strategy worked last year because we were a better shooting perimeter team....there is one and only one answer as to why things aren't working this year and it's the PG getting 30 minutes a game.  Period.

Quote from: forgetful on January 04, 2014, 11:49:30 AM
Jake and Jake alone may have an exception to that rule.  But Buzz did say in the press conference after the last game that they have a rule, no shots until a paint touch.  He emphasized that Juan took a shot early without a paint touch and was pulled out of the game immediately for it.

That is why a couple of us have been emphasizing that Juan not shooting is no necessarily because he doesn't want to shoot, rather he is following the team rule.

Quote from: forgetful on January 04, 2014, 11:49:30 AM
Jake and Jake alone may have an exception to that rule.  But Buzz did say in the press conference after the last game that they have a rule, no shots until a paint touch.  He emphasized that Juan took a shot early without a paint touch and was pulled out of the game immediately for it.

That is why a couple of us have been emphasizing that Juan not shooting is no necessarily because he doesn't want to shoot, rather he is following the team rule.

Quote from: MARQ_13 on January 04, 2014, 12:47:20 PM
Derrick not starting today. Davante in his place.

Quote from: Nevada233 on January 03, 2014, 11:23:14 AM
Theres nothing that shows "DNP dawson" is gonna play any real minutes this year so im looking past that.

So is Anyone against Jamil taking over primary PG and wilson back him up. That would certainly at least make the defense honest and have to guard him and Jake on the perimeter

Jamil (20-25 min at pg and Derrick 10 min)
Jake
Juan
Deonte (Good deonte not the JR smith my shots the 1st option and last option)
Otule

Starting?? Maybe.

Quote from: Nevada233 on January 04, 2014, 02:06:25 PM
Cant say i didnt call it. Jamil at point.

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 04, 2014, 02:07:03 PM
Uh-huh, and how is that working out for us?  Way to go!

Quote from: Nevada233 on January 04, 2014, 02:24:11 PM
Even worse. Sheesh this is ugly.

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 04, 2014, 02:31:40 PM
there may yet be hope...

Quote from: Ners on January 04, 2014, 11:06:55 AM
Sorry Gooo, but you and a few others are simply in denial as to how bad Derrick's "performance" is negatively impacting this team.  Virtually every team wants to score in transition - against a defense that isn't set - no coach would advocate not pushing the ball off of missed shots - particularly if you have a team of decent athletes.  You slow the pace when you are severely undermanned/undertalented - which we are not, other than at the PG position.

Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 04, 2014, 08:47:32 PM
With today's starting lineup, we were getting our a$$es kicked.  When Derrick came in, we came back and won going away.

You're the one in denial if you can't admit that we played better with Derrick in than with him out.  But I guess looking at the facts would hamper your delusions.

Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 04, 2014, 08:47:32 PM
With today's starting lineup, we were getting our a$$es kicked.  When Derrick came in, we came back and won going away.

You're the one in denial if you can't admit that we played better with Derrick in than with him out.  But I guess looking at the facts would hamper your delusions.

Quote from: mubuzz on January 04, 2014, 09:00:07 PM
Yeah the 2 pts, 2 rbs, 3 assists, with 2 to's in 31 minutes must have been what sparked us today lol! Or maybe it was the 2-6 from the ft line! Wow why do we even bother putting him on the bench at all with production like that  :o

Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 04, 2014, 09:05:11 PM
So individual stats are more important than how the team performs when a player is in?  Seriously?

Sorry you missed the game and only read the box score.

Quote from: mubuzz on January 04, 2014, 09:10:47 PM
I did watch the game...you are implying that we started to play better because of Derrick, I disagree. We pulled away because Gardner became unstoppable. It wouldn't have mattered who was in at pg.

Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 04, 2014, 09:19:37 PM
So Davante was ineffective at the beginning when Derrick was out.  Then Derrick comes in, Davante gets hot and MU makes a nice run.  Then Derrick is out again at the beginning of the second half and Jamil gets 2 TOs and a foul in the first two minutes, so we bring Derrick back in...and Davante gets hot and we win going away.

But that had nothing to do with Derrick at PG?  You might want to let Buzz know....

Quote from: mubuzz on January 04, 2014, 09:26:49 PM
Did you watch the game? It had nothing to do with Derrick...he had 3 assists all game and I know for sure 2 of them weren't to Gardner. Gardner was posting up and backing down his man, that's where all his points were coming from. Not from some great offensive plan executed by Derrick.

Quote from: Guns n Ammo on January 04, 2014, 03:51:55 PM
Just to clear this up...

Dawson is at least 3rd on the PG depth chart at this point, and he might even be 4th behind Mayo (depending on the specific game).

He will not play much in conference (if at all).