1. I now concede Derrick is limited, although I continue to believe its lack of confidence.
2. Why is Juan not taking jumpers? He can shoot. I just wonder if he's got a red light.
3. There is something up with Davante. I don't know if it's frustration about what's gone on thus far, or what. But he's just not the same player.
4. This Burton has some serious potential. He's reminds me of former Illini Kenny Battle.
5. I really like JuJuan, but he makes freshman mistakes.
6. Mayo is the exact same player he was when he arrived. An average (at best) shooter and a poor decision maker. I don't know if he's uncoachable or what, but at this point I'd rather see Jake or JuJuan in the game.
7. Great game by Otule.
8. Solid game by Jamil.
9. Bow ties are for posers...but I still love Buzz.
10. Tough loss, but didn't expect a W.
11. I find this team more interesting to watch than last years. The NCAA run was great, but I like this team better.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on January 01, 2014, 12:47:40 AM
11. I find this team more interesting to watch than last years. The NCAA run was great, but I like this team better.
You must enjoy the bad side of interesting then. Not sure many others are with ya here!
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on January 01, 2014, 12:47:40 AM
11. I find this team more interesting to watch than last years. The NCAA run was great, but I like this team better.
A train wreck is more interesting than an uneventful trip, but I'd sure rather be party to the latter than the former.
If you listen to buzz post game after samford they all have red light until they get a paint touch. He calls it red light green light actually. Listen to that if they hAve podcast.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on January 01, 2014, 12:47:40 AM
11. I find this team more interesting to watch than last years. The NCAA run was great, but I like this team better.
My frustration outweighs the interest. Derrick is frustrating whenever he has the ball. Jamail is frustrating in that the flashes he shows have not become come consistent, and as frustrated (or constipated) as Gardner always looks--that's how frustrated I am at his play.
Quote from: chren21 on January 01, 2014, 07:17:58 AM
If you listen to buzz post game after samford they all have red light until they get a paint touch. He calls it red light green light actually. Listen to that if they hAve podcast.
More Buzzspeak.
Gardner is not even close to the same player this season. It comes down the fact that he is often on the court with guys who cannot score and D can pack it in on him. He would be our best weapon if teams had to defend to guards.
Quote from: chren21 on January 01, 2014, 07:17:58 AM
If you listen to buzz post game after samford they all have red light until they get a paint touch. He calls it red light green light actually. Listen to that if they hAve podcast.
This is retarded. I get what he is trying to do but it's obviously not working. He needs to let the guys shoot if they are open and in rythym. Creighton was daring anybody to shoot, and nobody would. Pretty easy to play defense that way. Too predictable.
I'm not frustrated with Jamil at all. Last night I felt only JW, CO, DB, JJ and JT came to play. Wilson has stepped up and, minus some of the careless turnovers, is playing like our best player. But, what can he do when his supporting cast many times on the floor is such a handicap offensively. He is being forced to play point (and at several times was playing point with Derrick Wilson in the game....huh???). There is little to no spacing because nobody takes JA or DW seriously as an outside threat. Where Jamil thrives....on the break, has been basically eliminated because we have nobody to run the break. Did you see DW try to run a fast break or two last night....wow, really poorly down and made passes that nobody could finish.
I love Deonte's game and am glad he is getting a lot more minutes. JJJ is on the rise (he should be getting more minutes than Mayo and Thomas at the 2). Buzz not only needs to step up his game on rotations, game planning (um, guard the perimeter against a team like Creighton) but he should never, ever wear a bow tie again!
Mayo is such a disappointment...I think we are a better TEAM without him on the floor. Davante is either uber-frustrated, disengaged, or the lack of any consistent perimeter game has rendered his game moot.
I wish we would either play Steve Taylor or not...he seems to be in no-mans land.
The season is not lost, but it is close. This could have been an opportunity to turn the tide but it put us even further away from success. I think the rotations need to limit down to those that give us the best opportunities and include major minutes for JW, DB, JJJ, and everybody else in rotational minutes.
Quote from: chren21 on January 01, 2014, 07:17:58 AM
If you listen to buzz post game after samford they all have red light until they get a paint touch. He calls it red light green light actually. Listen to that if they hAve podcast.
"How many times are we gonna pass the ball before we take a shot?"
"Four, coach."
"FOUR!"
I am in agreement with a lot of what PRN said.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/ncaa/men/gameflash/2013/12/31/90781/#boxscore
1. Jamil can be so good if he just brings it every possession. Defensive rebounds into pull up jumpers, running the point well, decent defense on Dougie. Get angry, Jamil!
2. Loved the defensive intensity. The traps were effective for a while. Creighton is just a good passing team and eventually made MU pay every time it wasn't perfect.
3. Held a high scoring team to 67 on their floor
4. Gardner is a liability right now. Give his minutes to STjr and Deonte. Ride Otule as long as you can.
5. 9 assists for a game?
6. Rebounding is solid.
7. JJJ and Deonte continue to impress, but still have a ways to go.
8. Juan, you need to play hard and smart every game.
9. Todd, ditto.
10. Loved the bow tie. So Buzz.
11. Vander leaving has cost this team a great deal.
And, the Bluejay defense held their opposition to 49.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 01, 2014, 09:32:32 AM
And, the Bluejay defense held their opposition to 49.
MU's shooting held it to 49.
Quote from: tower912 on January 01, 2014, 09:38:01 AM
MU's shooting held it to 49.
Yeah, I don't think we can put this all on the stifling Bluejay defense.
1. I thought Jamil Wilson played great, but he's being asked to do too much. Chasing McDermott all over the place then playing point while Derrick Wilson stands around the low post. I understand why Buzz tried putting Derrick down low, if his guy is going to stand there anyway, may as well out Derrick down there in hopes of freeing up players elsewhere.
2. Of course, if Derrick isn't going to play the point, there is no logical reason to have him on the floor.
2. Deonte Burton, Jake Thomas, Chris Otule were solid. Burton particularly defended McDermott pretty well when he was assigned to him. I think he is fine in a straight man to man defense, but struggles with the switching and rotations. I am really looking forward to watching him for the next 3 1/2 seasons.
3. We just don't have a point guard. We move the ball around better and get better shots and driving lanes whenever Derrick Wilson sits. Unfortunately, we are also much sloppier/turnover prone when he sits.
4. Gardner cannot get the ball on the low block in a position to score with the teammates he has. Our lack of outside threats are just killing him. Otule, due to his sheer size and the relatively minimal defensive pressure he seems to attract, actually may be a little more offensively effective in some of these situations.
5. We miss Blue, but we miss Cadougan more.
6. Anderson has to take the uncontested 3. He can make a high enough percentage of those to make the defense play him honest. I like him on the floor, but he has to be a threat.
I think Buzz paint touches work, if you have the right players. This team does not have the right players. I also think assist to basket ratio is overrated. Agianst Samford we assisted on something like 19 out of 22 baskets and they were talking about how good that was. I am thinking that means we got no baskets off drives or offensive rebound put backs. The statistic's value is very misleading as to the quality of your points. As far as red light green light, if MU is not going to shoot before they get a paint touch, if I were the opposing coach I would put all 5 playings in the paint so MU could not get a paint touch and let the shot clock expire.
Quote from: bilsu on January 01, 2014, 11:05:25 AM
I think Buzz paint touches work, if you have the right players. This team does not have the right players. I also think assist to basket ratio is overrated. Agianst Samford we assisted on something like 19 out of 22 baskets and they were talking about how good that was. I am thinking that means we got no baskets off drives or offensive rebound put backs. The statistic's value is very misleading as to the quality of your points. As far as red light green light, if MU is not going to shoot before they get a paint touch, if I were the opposing coach I would put all 5 playings in the paint so MU could not get a paint touch and let the shot clock expire.
It would not surprise me if this was part of McDermott's strategy last night. We seemed to pass on a lot of open looks--not sure whether they passed specifically because of the red-light/green-light policy, or because Buzz simply hasn't unleashed certain players even if the ball has touched paint.
It would also be interesting to know how many of our 15 turnovers came while trying to get a paint touch instead of trying to work for an open shot. The objective is not a paint touch--its an open, high-percentage attempt.
And if you have an open, high-percentage shot avaiable, it seems silly not to take it for the arbitrary reason that the ball has not touched the paint yet.
Quote from: Goose on January 01, 2014, 07:47:34 AM
Gardner is not even close to the same player this season. It comes down the fact that he is often on the court with guys who cannot score and D can pack it in on him. He would be our best weapon if teams had to defend to guards.
Gardner is the exact same player. Last year he was often not great. Go back and look at the game logs, he often was held to low points/rebounds. He excels when he is in a man to man with no help defense. But all Bigs excel under that scenario, that is why most teams double the post.
In the past (mainly his freshman and sophomore years), teams would not double the post much at all. This was unusual and allowed him to get a reputation as a brute-force scorer. Teams adapted, but Gardner didn't try to learn counters to the new defense. Rather, last year and this year he gets in a funk/bad attitude because defenses are playing him properly.
If he was the Big East player of the year candidate that many here had hoped for, double teams and sagging defenses wouldn't matter. Great players overcome these obstacles. We threw doubles as McDermott all game...he scored 19 pts 7 rbs. Davante got doubled and he pouted and gave up... 4pts 2 rbs 2 tos.
If he thinks he is a star he needs to drop the attitude, put on his big boy pants and prove it. Honestly, otherwise give his playing time to someone else. His attitude is not helping this team.
I had a few friggin thoughts too from what I saw:
1. Burton not very good at defense right now, needs to put in more effort. D is effort.
2. Jamil Wilson....yeah, not a stud. ...sad that he can't be a supporting member on this team, not enough talent.
3. Creighton has mojo at their place, like us at our place.
When will change take place? Does the current strategy start to work or do lineups change?
I wish Steve would get some more time to at least try to get in a rhythm. How is he going to gain any confidence when he gets 30 seconds to be in the game? His regression is one of the stranger ones for any MU player lately. I was expecting him to be one of their top guys this year (top 5).
It's probably time to admit that out best shooter is actually Gardner. I'd like to see him unleashed a bit. Encourage him to take an open 3 rather than benching him for it. Set him up for the free throw line jumper (set shot?) because he makes it. Once he establishes this, then he can shot fake and drive.
Let's face it, with no other shooters, this team needs the buckets and Gardner is not going to get much from the low post.
Quote from: john31 on January 01, 2014, 12:37:13 PM
When will change take place? Does the current strategy start to work or do lineups change?
(http://mlkshk.com/r/54DT)
Definitely no Real Chili!
Quote from: tower912 on January 01, 2014, 09:28:46 AM
I am in agreement with a lot of what PRN said.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/ncaa/men/gameflash/2013/12/31/90781/#boxscore
1. Jamil can be so good if he just brings it every possession. Defensive rebounds into pull up jumpers, running the point well, decent defense on Dougie. Get angry, Jamil!
2. Loved the defensive intensity. The traps were effective for a while. Creighton is just a good passing team and eventually made MU pay every time it wasn't perfect.
3. Held a high scoring team to 67 on their floor
4. Gardner is a liability right now. Give his minutes to STjr and Deonte. Ride Otule as long as you can.
5. 9 assists for a game?
6. Rebounding is solid.
7. JJJ and Deonte continue to impress, but still have a ways to go.
8. Juan, you need to play hard and smart every game.
9. Todd, ditto.
10. Loved the bow tie. So Buzz.
11. Vander leaving has cost this team a great deal.
Gardner is not a liability. That all pro PG of ours has 3 assists to him all year--that's right 3. If you do nor have people that can get the ball inside, that is what happens. And keep slurping the Kool Aid.
Quote from: tower912 on January 01, 2014, 09:28:46 AM
4. Gardner is a liability right now. Give his minutes to STjr and Deonte. Ride Otule as long as you can.
Gardner can't score because our PG can't get him the ball. It's pathetic that Gardner has to score on 12' jump shots. What a waste of an asset. Gardner should have destroyed Creighton last night. Little wonder he's pissed off.
Quote from: keefe on January 01, 2014, 04:24:34 PM
Gardner can't score because our PG can't get him the ball. It's pathetic that Gardner has to score on 12' jump shots. What a waste of an asset. Gardner should have destroyed Creighton last night. Little wonder he's pissed off.
I know you aren't necessarily the one always saying it, but we fault Jake for not getting enough shots, because he doesn't create for himself and get himself open to get fed the ball in a position to score.
For Davante, we fault the rest of the players for not creating him open so that Gardner, who does not create for himself can get more shots. Gardner is not working hard enough.
Quote from: forgetful on January 01, 2014, 05:44:53 PM
I know you aren't necessarily the one always saying it, but we fault Jake for not getting enough shots, because he doesn't create for himself and get himself open to get fed the ball in a position to score.
For Davante, we fault the rest of the players for not creating him open so that Gardner, who does not create for himself can get more shots. Gardner is not working hard enough.
I stay out of player trashing sh1t fights but our guard play is killing us. Gardner can throw his hips around all he wants but the enemy is packing the lane and we are unable to work the ball inside. I really do think Buzz needs to make some strategic changes if we are to salvage this season.
Quote from: keefe on January 01, 2014, 04:24:34 PM
Gardner can't score because our PG can't get him the ball. It's pathetic that Gardner has to score on 12' jump shots. What a waste of an asset. Gardner should have destroyed Creighton last night. Little wonder he's pissed off.
Right - cuz Derrick's man is in the lane in front of DG. Now if Davante stood 30 feet from the basket on the perimeter - Derrick would pass to him all day.
Quote from: forgetful on January 01, 2014, 12:24:16 PM
Teams adapted, but Gardner didn't try to learn counters to the new defense. Rather, last year and this year he gets in a funk/bad attitude because defenses are playing him properly.
What the heck is he supposed to do to adapt? Usually when you face the double in the post, you kick the ball out to a shooter and make them pay. At least the doubler should have to keep an eye on his guy and maybe that gives the post guy an opening to score. Our shooter (Jake Thomas) is not open because the double never comes from his man. The guy who is open is Derrick Wilson, and kicking the ball out to him just means we start the offense all over again, because he will not take that pass and shoot, he will not take that pass and drive, he will not take that pass and find a cutter and he will not take that pass and send it back for the re-post by Gardner because the doubler never really leaves Gardner when Derrick has the ball. He will take that pass and dribble back to the point or pass to someone else who is 25 feet from the basket. Therefore there is no defensive price to pay for doubling our post guy. This is as basic as basketball gets.
Otule doesn't draw the same aggressive double team, and he is big enough to shoot over it. Davante has neither the hops nor the quickness to beat the second guy. He has tremendous hands and footwork, so he can get a single defender on his hip and get off an impressive array of shots from the ground. That is very difficult for him with a double teamer that prevents him from using the dribble or room to use his footwork.
So, what you are saying is that Otule is more productive this year.
In Gardner's defense, a lot of his points came off of penetration by Cadougan and Blue. The defense would move just enough and with his phenomenal hands, he was able to catch and get the shot off against a single recovering defender.
Quote from: CTWarrior on January 02, 2014, 08:22:39 AM
What the heck is he supposed to do to adapt? Usually when you face the double in the post, you kick the ball out to a shooter and make them pay. At least the doubler should have to keep an eye on his guy and maybe that gives the post guy an opening to score. Our shooter (Jake Thomas) is not open because the double never comes from his man. The guy who is open is Derrick Wilson, and kicking the ball out to him just means we start the offense all over again, because he will not take that pass and shoot, he will not take that pass and drive, he will not take that pass and find a cutter and he will not take that pass and send it back for the re-post by Gardner because the doubler never really leaves Gardner when Derrick has the ball. He will take that pass and dribble back to the point or pass to someone else who is 25 feet from the basket. Therefore there is no defensive price to pay for doubling our post guy. This is as basic as basketball gets.
Otule doesn't draw the same aggressive double team, and he is big enough to shoot over it. Davante has neither the hops nor the quickness to beat the second guy. He has tremendous hands and footwork, so he can get a single defender on his hip and get off an impressive array of shots from the ground. That is very difficult for him with a double teamer that prevents him from using the dribble or room to use his footwork.
Absolutely 100% true.
Quote from: tower912 on January 02, 2014, 08:26:12 AM
So, what you are saying is that Otule is more productive this year.
In Gardner's defense, a lot of his points came off of penetration by Cadougan and Blue. The defense would move just enough and with his phenomenal hands, he was able to catch and get the shot off against a single recovering defender.
Well, you certainly could say that Otule is more effective when we are defended this way (Otule's biggest issue as a post player is that he can't catch the drive and dish pass with any consistency. Much less of a problem this year since we don't seem to ever throw that pass.) But maybe the question we should be asking is what can we do so that we are not defended this way and our best offensive weapon is eliminated?
I think the answer is to throw JJJ or Mayo out there more often and let Jamil Wilson start the offense more often and play without a true PG with the ball going through multiple players, each of whom is a threat.
I have total faith in Buzz, by the way. I think he thinks the above is true and is transitioning in this direction, and has good reasons that escape me (perhaps team chemistry, etc) for bringing the change about slowly.
Quote from: CTWarrior on January 02, 2014, 08:47:01 AM
Well, you certainly could say that Otule is more effective when we are defended this way (Otule's biggest issue as a post player is that he can't catch the drive and dish pass with any consistency. Much less of a problem this year since we don't seem to ever throw that pass.) But maybe the question we should be asking is what can we do so that we are not defended this way and our best offensive weapon is eliminated?
I think the answer is to throw JJJ or Mayo out there more often and let Jamil Wilson start the offense more often and play without a true PG with the ball going through multiple players, each of whom is a threat.
I have total faith in Buzz, by the way. I think he thinks the above is true and is transitioning in this direction, and has good reasons that escape me (perhaps team chemistry, etc) for bringing the change about slowly.
Or maybe Buzz releases the hounds and gives guys the green light to shoot prior to getting a paint touch. That would open things up immensely. Right now, we are probably working harder to get the ball in the paint than we are to find an open shot. I would take our chances with opening up the offense and letting our front court (a strength against most teams) battle for offensive rebounds.
Quote from: CTWarrior on January 02, 2014, 08:22:39 AM
What the heck is he supposed to do to adapt? Usually when you face the double in the post, you kick the ball out to a shooter and make them pay. At least the doubler should have to keep an eye on his guy and maybe that gives the post guy an opening to score. Our shooter (Jake Thomas) is not open because the double never comes from his man. The guy who is open is Derrick Wilson, and kicking the ball out to him just means we start the offense all over again, because he will not take that pass and shoot, he will not take that pass and drive, he will not take that pass and find a cutter and he will not take that pass and send it back for the re-post by Gardner because the doubler never really leaves Gardner when Derrick has the ball. He will take that pass and dribble back to the point or pass to someone else who is 25 feet from the basket. Therefore there is no defensive price to pay for doubling our post guy. This is as basic as basketball gets.
Otule doesn't draw the same aggressive double team, and he is big enough to shoot over it. Davante has neither the hops nor the quickness to beat the second guy. He has tremendous hands and footwork, so he can get a single defender on his hip and get off an impressive array of shots from the ground. That is very difficult for him with a double teamer that prevents him from using the dribble or room to use his footwork.
So what you are saying is that he is limited athletically and skill wise, but then his lack of production is his teammates fault. Otule can outperform him on the current team, but we should bench everyone else that is holding Gardner back so he can start and excel?
And similarly D. Wilson is limited athletically and skill wise, but that is D. Wilson's fault....seems fair, we need to bench him immediately.
As for how to adapt not too hard actually.
First, he needs to actually start kicking the ball out. He used to, but has largely stopped, D. Wilson is good about taking a kick out on a curl drive when his man is sagging (that's why he had so many points against ASU). Others on the perimeter can make the shot after a kick out, problem is Gardner rarely looks to pass anymore.
Second, Line up in the wide post and turn to take them off the dribble (he is capable there) or shoot if it is available. If the double comes from D. Wilson's man here, Wilson can cut behind them for an easy layup...he hasn't done this though either.
Third, quit trying to draw contact and a foul...refs have been on to his game for the past two years and it doesn't work anymore...just put the damn ball in the basket.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 02, 2014, 09:13:57 AM
Or maybe Buzz releases the hounds and gives guys the green light to shoot prior to getting a paint touch. That would open things up immensely. Right now, we are probably working harder to get the ball in the paint than we are to find an open shot. I would take our chances with opening up the offense and letting our front court (a strength against most teams) battle for offensive rebounds.
Agreed. What's weird to me, is, was this rule in place the last couple seasons? I seem to remember multiple guys shooting that trailing 3pter as soon as we got the ball into the half-court, without having any paint touches.