MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: NersEllenson on December 09, 2013, 11:10:25 AM
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Saw it mentioned that someone wasn't even sure if Junior Cadougan would be better runnning the point for this team, than Derrick Wilson - found that shocking personally, and curious to see the Scoop community feelings..
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Yes...another point guard thread to go with the dozen or so we have on the front page already.
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This question is easy. Cadougan owned Wilson in practice.
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Seems like the more relevant question is who we'd rather see at SG - Jake or anybody else on the roster. I'd take B.
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Write in vote: Tony Smith
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LOL - Derrick with 4 votes...would those voters please raise their hand?
Sultan, Guns, Merritt, Brew....
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LOL - Derrick with 4 votes...would those voters please raise their hand?
Sultan, Guns, Merritt, Brew....
I didn't vote because this poll is Bull Sh*t nonsense.
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LOL - Derrick with 4 votes...would those voters please raise their hand?
Sultan, Guns, Merritt, Brew....
I am not participating in this. This is just one of these things you do when you obsess about something.
EDIT: Or what Guns just said.
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Lloyd Walton.
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I did vote for Cadougan, but the poll is offensive to this year's team.
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I'd rather have Jimmy Butler than Jamil Wilson.
I'd also rather have Jerel McNeal than Todd Mayo.
Let's start a poll...
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LOL - Derrick with 4 votes...would those voters please raise their hand?
Sultan, Guns, Merritt, Brew....
I voted for Tony Smith.
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Pointless exercise. I can't imagine how anyone would honestly answer Derrick Wilson. So votes for him are a show support for the current guy, which is fine. This issue has been beaten to death, and I've contributed my share. Derrick Wilson isn't too good, but he's probably still our best option. Buzz certainly thinks so, and he has a better handle on the situation than we do. And he's not just being loyal to Derrick, either. You can be loyal to Derrick and play him 25 minutes/game. The fact that he he playing 35+ minutes in these games tells me that Buzz is truly convinced he is our only current viable option. A better discussion topic would be about how we can have an effective offense despite Derrick's limitations.
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Will not vote. Why not ask, who would you rather have at center, Gardner or Jimmy Mc? Just as relevant.
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I am not participating in this. This is just one of these things you do when you obsess about something.
EDIT: Or what Guns just said.
It's what I do when I see comments on here that blow my mind and make me wonder - am I crazy, or is another poster? It's nice to just get some scientific clarification on the matter...that's all.
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hairless worthen as point guard.
Seriously, what the hell.
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I didn't vote because this poll is Bull Sh*t nonsense.
+1
Didn't vote and didn't see it until just now.
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The original post that caused this "debate" was by brewcity and said: "I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is. Wilson isn't turning the ball over, though he is showing similar inconsistencies to Cadougan with how he can be very good one game and mediocre the next (though in different ways)."
I don't want to speak for brew, but that's hardly a poll-worthy, ringing endorsement for Derrick.
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This is an easy question. Cadougan. I'd take Acker, Buycks, Cuby, and Marcus Jackson over Derrick Wilson at this poiont.
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The original post that caused this "debate" was by brewcity and said: "I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is. Wilson isn't turning the ball over, though he is showing similar inconsistencies to Cadougan with how he can be very good one game and mediocre the next (though in different ways)."
I don't want to speak for brew, but that's hardly a poll-worthy, ringing endorsement for Derrick.
I think Derrick is doing fine. He's not an All-American, never asserted he was. But I think there are much bigger problems on this team than Derrick. If Mayo could consistently play like we've seen in flashes, if Jamil played every game like he did against CSF and Wisconsin, if Juan and Jake could be counted on for even 35% from three, if Gardner could get back to getting to and converting at the line, Derrick would look a lot better.
Adding Junior would add playmaking, but he wasn't as good a defender and he was much more turnover prone than Derrick. On this team, I'm not sure that would be a good thing. A much more sensible poll than to discuss a graduated senior would be an early-exit Vander (who actually could be here) and Jake, which I expect would be unanimous unless Jake is secretly a member on the forum.
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Both are backups. Good backups, but backups.
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The original post that caused this "debate" was by brewcity and said: "I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is. Wilson isn't turning the ball over, though he is showing similar inconsistencies to Cadougan with how he can be very good one game and mediocre the next (though in different ways)."
I don't want to speak for brew, but that's hardly a poll-worthy, ringing endorsement for Derrick.
Actually, if you think about it, 39min. of Cadougan per game might have looked pretty ugly.
I like Junior, but part of what made him effective was Buzz's ability to rotate Derrick in and limit some of Junior's mistakes.
Junior might have 6 assists per game if he played 39min, but he also might have 5 TOs and a handful of bad fouls.
Not many players can play at a high level for 39min, and that's part of Derrick's problem. He's a good role player at 20-25min. per night. When you stretch him out to 35+, his weaknesses become more apparent.
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I think Derrick is doing fine.
I think this is where you lose a lot of people. I understand when you say that Derrick is probably our best PG. I understand when you see Dawson probably isn't ready to to compete at Derrick's level just yet. But he is not just fine. He is killing our offense by not initiating any and by forcing the other guys to compete 4 on 5. He is our biggest problem. SG is also a big problem, but this is the biggest.
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I think this is where you lose a lot of people. I understand when you say that Derrick is probably our best PG. I understand when you see Dawson probably isn't ready to to compete at Derrick's level just yet. But he is not just fine. He is killing our offense by not initiating any and by forcing the other guys to compete 4 on 5. He is our biggest problem. SG is also a big problem, but this is the biggest.
I disagree completely. Look at how Derrick played on our West Coast trip. He was excellent, driving the lane, getting to and converting at the line, getting the ball to guys in position to score, and not turning the ball over. He does not make this team 4 on 5. That's the SG position.
Derrick's not great, but he's shown flashes, and as a first-year starter, there were always going to be bumps. He plays within himself and makes sure the system keeps going. He does what is required of the position. He's not a shooter but he gets the ball to the shooters. He wasn't a driver but he has become one because the team needed him to. He is a defender and a guy who makes sure you retain possession.
Wisky was a step back for him, but anyone that can't see he's much improved over last year is watching the game with blinders on (and I realize there are a lot of those out there). I have far more issue with Jake getting 26 minutes and one shot attempt in that game.
Derrick's job seems to be to play a controlled game offensively, drive the lane when it's there, not turn the ball over, and defend. He has done all that. I have much more issue with Jamil and Todd not being able to assert themselves regularly, Jake not being able to consistently hit open shots, and Gardner not able to get to the line as much or convert when he does. If they start doing their jobs, I have a feeling people would have far less issue with Derrick and how he's doing his.
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I think this is where you lose a lot of people. I understand when you say that Derrick is probably our best PG. I understand when you see Dawson probably isn't ready to to compete at Derrick's level just yet. But he is not just fine. He is killing our offense by not initiating any and by forcing the other guys to compete 4 on 5. He is our biggest problem. SG is also a big problem, but this is the biggest.
Couldn't disagree with you more here. Look at the times when Derrick was effective like in Anehiem, it's when he had somewhere approaching a competent 2 guard in Mayo, JJJ, or Jake. The amount of offense our point guard actually initiates in Buzz's set is somewhat of a false narrative, anyone can initiate. The point guard is to bring the ball up the court and then play D on their point guard, after that it is largely another scoring option or a ball handler is someone gets in trouble.
Derrick is able to drive when his defender hedges on the off side pass threat from the 2 guard rolling off the down screen. That gives Derrick the corner. If this threat isn't there then Derrick has to take his man straight up which isn't his game. Buzz's offense is all about "turning the corner" on the defense and only Jamil has the ability independent of the offensive system.
What do you want Derrick to do that he's not doing?
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I think Cadougan was very important to Gardner. Cadougan could drive and he often dumped off a good pass to Gardner on his drive. I have not seen Derrick do that. Cadougan was a better outside shooter, but usually we did not want him shooting the ball. By the end of the season I think their free throw percentages will be fairly similar and Derrick has made a great improvement over the 9 game period in being able to score off his drives. Derrick has less tournovers and is a better defender. Derrick needs to be able to drop passes off to Gardner or Wilson on his drives. Derrick is getting a lot of blame but he is teamed with Thomas and Anderson instead of Blue and Lockett and that is a big difference.
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Magic Johnson. Go big or go home.
This is a bullsh!t thread.
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I disagree completely. Look at how Derrick played on our West Coast trip. He was excellent, driving the lane, getting to and converting at the line, getting the ball to guys in position to score, and not turning the ball over. He does not make this team 4 on 5. That's the SG position.
Derrick's not great, but he's shown flashes, and as a first-year starter, there were always going to be bumps. He plays within himself and makes sure the system keeps going. He does what is required of the position. He's not a shooter but he gets the ball to the shooters. He wasn't a driver but he has become one because the team needed him to. He is a defender and a guy who makes sure you retain possession.
Wisky was a step back for him, but anyone that can't see he's much improved over last year is watching the game with blinders on (and I realize there are a lot of those out there). I have far more issue with Jake getting 26 minutes and one shot attempt in that game.
Derrick's job seems to be to play a controlled game offensively, drive the lane when it's there, not turn the ball over, and defend. He has done all that. I have much more issue with Jamil and Todd not being able to assert themselves regularly, Jake not being able to consistently hit open shots, and Gardner not able to get to the line as much or convert when he does. If they start doing their jobs, I have a feeling people would have far less issue with Derrick and how he's doing his.
jinx
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Oh since we have this nonsensical poll, why isn't John Stockton an option?
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Oh since we have this nonsensical poll, why isn't John Stockton an option?
Stockton didn't make any 3's during his time at Gonzaga! MU's PG needs to be able to spread the floor.
(I really hope teal isn't necessary)
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Pops Sims
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Stockton didn't make any 3's during his time at Gonzaga! MU's PG needs to be able to spread the floor.
(I really hope teal isn't necessary)
plus the shorts....so, yeah.
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Derrick's job seems to be to play a controlled game offensively, drive the lane when it's there, not turn the ball over, and defend. He has done all that.
That job description is the problem! That is the job description of a 5-10 minute a game back-up PG. A PG's primary job is to direct the offense. He does not do that or even attempt to do that. Jake Thomas is a 3 point shooter who can't get off a shot because the man guarding him NEVER HAS TO LEAVE HIM to double elsewhere because Derrick Wilson's man can always do that. Cutters don't have to be guarded tightly because our PG WILL NOT pass them the ball, partially because the passing lanes aren't there because his man is sagging off of him so much and partially because he won't make a pass if there is a 3% chance it will be intercepted.
Finally, I have always respected your opinion on basketball brew, but I really have to stop replying to your posts because I feel dirty every time I say something bad about a college kid and your defenses of Derrick Wilson drive me nuts.
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I think Cadougan was very important to Gardner. Cadougan could drive and he often dumped off a good pass to Gardner on his drive. I have not seen Derrick do that. Cadougan was a better outside shooter, but usually we did not want him shooting the ball. By the end of the season I think their free throw percentages will be fairly similar and Derrick has made a great improvement over the 9 game period in being able to score off his drives. Derrick has less tournovers and is a better defender. Derrick needs to be able to drop passes off to Gardner or Wilson on his drives. Derrick is getting a lot of blame but he is teamed with Thomas and Anderson instead of Blue and Lockett and that is a big difference.
Feeding Gardner last year was just as difficult as this year, difference being we don't have a Vander to slash and score. I don't know how many times Gardner has been in a position in the blocks early in the shot clock and no one on the team seems to have an ability or desire to feed him the ball. I think that is part of his frustration. Look at the Wisconsin game, at least 3 times he got the ball in the post with 6 or less seconds on the shot clock and he had to force up a shot. That won't cut it no matter who the point guard is.
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A PG's primary job is to direct the offense.
In some offenses absolutely, in Buzz's, no
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That job description is the problem! That is the job description of a 5-10 minute a game back-up PG. A PG's primary job is to direct the offense.
That's not entirely fair.
We all like having a PG who directs the offense and scores some because it's easy to watch and it's what we are used to.
But, that doesn't mean it's required for success.
Ron Harper wasn't directing the offense for the Bulls.
Now obviously that's the NBA, and that's Mike Jordan, but you get the idea.
Having a PG who directs the offense and scores isn't necessary for a good team. It's just what we are used to watching.
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That job description is the problem! That is the job description of a 5-10 minute a game back-up PG. A PG's primary job is to direct the offense. He does not do that or even attempt to do that. Jake Thomas is a 3 point shooter who can't get off a shot because the man guarding him NEVER HAS TO LEAVE HIM to double elsewhere because Derrick Wilson's man can always do that. Cutters don't have to be guarded tightly because our PG WILL NOT pass them the ball, partially because the passing lanes aren't there because his man is sagging off of him so much and partially because he won't make a pass if there is a 3% chance it will be intercepted.
Finally, I have always respected your opinion on basketball brew, but I really have to stop replying to your posts because I feel dirty every time I say something bad about a college kid and your defenses of Derrick Wilson drive me nuts.
He's averaging more assists than Junior did last season, which must be a statistical oddity considering he doesn't even attempt to run the offense.
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That job description is the problem! That is the job description of a 5-10 minute a game back-up PG. A PG's primary job is to direct the offense. He does not do that or even attempt to do that. Jake Thomas is a 3 point shooter who can't get off a shot because the man guarding him NEVER HAS TO LEAVE HIM to double elsewhere because Derrick Wilson's man can always do that. Cutters don't have to be guarded tightly because our PG WILL NOT pass them the ball, partially because the passing lanes aren't there because his man is sagging off of him so much and partially because he won't make a pass if there is a 3% chance it will be intercepted.
Finally, I have always respected your opinion on basketball brew, but I really have to stop replying to your posts because I feel dirty every time I say something bad about a college kid and your defenses of Derrick Wilson drive me nuts.
He's what we've got. As eng pointed out, anyone can initiate this offense. I really don't think the problem is Derrick. The problem isn't even Jake. It's the two of them together. I'd love to see Todd in there more, but he has to earn it, and I respect that. The freshmen have to show they can do the work on the defensive end. You're starting to see a bit of that with Johnson and Burton, but for every block or steal there's a missed gamble or a blow-by given up.
Had Vander come back, my guess is he would have largely split time at the point with Derrick. But he didn't. So Buzz adjusted the team to fit what players he did have, just like he did when he slowed the attack down massively in 2009-10 and just like he did when he put the priority on converting inside the arc and getting to the line last year when we couldn't hit a three as a team to save our lives. Sometimes these adjustments are painful. But it's what he has to do to make sure the team is the best they can be come March. So there are bumps along the way. Is that anything new?
All we've done is substitute the name of the underachieving whipping boy. From Buycks to Blue to Trent to Derrick. Yet one thing all of those guys had in common was success by March. Maybe I'm just more patient than the rest.
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Write in vote: Tony Smith
Agree :)
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Hypothetically speaking, Ners is a douche bag.
What a pathetic fan you are.
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I disagree completely. Look at how Derrick played on our West Coast trip. He was excellent, driving the lane, getting to and converting at the line, getting the ball to guys in position to score, and not turning the ball over. He does not make this team 4 on 5. That's the SG position.
Bingo! Derrick is far from perfect, but he is not the weakest link in the starting lineup....
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He's averaging more assists than Junior did last season, which must be a statistical oddity considering he doesn't even attempt to run the offense.
That's because of the 10 against Grambling. Basically, 3 times a game he passes the ball to someone on the perimeter who make a quick move and scores.
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He's what we've got. As eng pointed out, anyone can initiate this offense. I really don't think the problem is Derrick. The problem isn't even Jake. It's the two of them together.
That the two of them playing offense together compounds each's shortcomings is something I totally agree with.
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Neither
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That's because of the 10 against Grambling. Basically, 3 times a game he passes the ball to someone on the perimeter who make a quick move and scores.
Ummmm, so then what offense is he not initiating? Are we only counting alley ops and/or Gardner buckets?
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That the two of them playing offense together compounds each's shortcomings is something I totally agree with.
And the 2 guard issue is both worse(impact) and more correctable than Derrick at the point.
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Ummmm, so then what offense is he not initiating? Are we only counting alley ops and/or Gardner buckets?
I think a PG should be a threat to score, and should be able to get the ball to others on the floor in good position to do something positive. The fact that Derrick Wilson dribbles the ball up the court on roughly 100% of our possession for 32 minutes a game and 3 times a game one of his 100 perimeter to perimeter passes is turned into a score on a jump shot or a nice move doesn't impress me all that much.
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He's what we've got. As eng pointed out, anyone can initiate this offense. I really don't think the problem is Derrick. The problem isn't even Jake. It's the two of them together. I'd love to see Todd in there more, but he has to earn it, and I respect that. The freshmen have to show they can do the work on the defensive end. You're starting to see a bit of that with Johnson and Burton, but for every block or steal there's a missed gamble or a blow-by given up.
Had Vander come back, my guess is he would have largely split time at the point with Derrick. But he didn't. So Buzz adjusted the team to fit what players he did have, just like he did when he slowed the attack down massively in 2009-10 and just like he did when he put the priority on converting inside the arc and getting to the line last year when we couldn't hit a three as a team to save our lives. Sometimes these adjustments are painful. But it's what he has to do to make sure the team is the best they can be come March. So there are bumps along the way. Is that anything new?
All we've done is substitute the name of the underachieving whipping boy. From Buycks to Blue to Trent to Derrick. Yet one thing all of those guys had in common was success by March. Maybe I'm just more patient than the rest.
You can win with a point guard like Derrick, but you can’t have a 2 guard that can’t score to go with him. That’s 2 guys on the perimeter that can’t score which allows defenses to collapse on the guys that can score.
Jake Thomas is a nice situational player maybe to draw the defense out, but I don’t see him as a consistent scorer at this level.
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I think a PG should be a threat to score, and should be able to get the ball to others on the floor in good position to do something positive. The fact that Derrick Wilson dribbles the ball up the court on roughly 100% of our possession for 32 minutes a game and 3 times a game one of his 100 perimeter to perimeter passes is turned into a score on a jump shot or a nice move doesn't impress me all that much.
Right, which is all well and good but that's not Buzz's offensive strategy. His offense is set-up to allow anyone to initiate the offense and the PG becomes just another ball handler and scoring threat. Wilson is a scoring threat as long as the 2 guard is ALSO a scoring threat. So really with Wilson and an effective JJJ or Mayo we are 5 on 5, with Wilson and Jake we are playing 3 on 5.
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You can win with a point guard like Derrick, but you can’t have a 2 guard that can’t score to go with him. That’s 2 guys on the perimeter that can’t score which allows defenses to collapse on the guys that can score.
Jake Thomas is a nice situational player maybe to draw the defense out, but I don’t see him as a consistent scorer at this level.
Here's the thing. Watch Jake Thomas' guy. He doesn't collapse on the guys who can score all that much. JT is neutralized by having a guy guard him everywhere he goes. It's not that hard to do, but you still have to do it. He does provide breathing room for the interior guys.
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Hypothetically speaking, Ners is a douche bag.
What a pathetic fan you are.
Thanks...glad you only find me a douche bag, hypothetically speaking. I simply find you to be a douche bag, period.
What a pathetic Puerto Rican you are...a disgrace to Puerto Rico.
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I think a PG should be a threat to score, and should be able to get the ball to others on the floor in good position to do something positive. The fact that Derrick Wilson dribbles the ball up the court on roughly 100% of our possession for 32 minutes a game and 3 times a game one of his 100 perimeter to perimeter passes is turned into a score on a jump shot or a nice move doesn't impress me all that much.
Derrick is learning on the job. But Junior brought it up just as much and averaged fewer assists last year than Derrick is right now (4.0, not 3). And in the past 5 games, Derrick is averaging 8.6 ppg, which is more than Junior averaged last year. The kid's a work in progress, but he's improving. I just don't get how anyone can't see that.
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Ners. What is your expectation for this team with Derrick at the point?
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Ners. What is your expectation for this team with Derrick at the point?
If Derrick continues to get 30+ minutes per game, we are at best a bubble team - 19 wins.
I think a good, high major point guard, in his Junior year, should average 10ppg, 6 assists, 1 steal, and no more than 2 turnovers per 30-35 minutes played.
I was a little more optimistic for Derrick after ASU as they are at least a decent team, and he put up nice numbers - though Carson got off big against us, and Derrick was primary defender...
Has Derrick improved this year over last? Slightly, but let's be frank, there really wasn't much regression possible, as his performances to date set the bar extremely low.
My biggest beef with him, is that he isn't a playmaker in any sense of the word, at the position you need the most creativity, and play making ability.
Think Derrick is a high character guy, and great kid, and from that perspective I feel bad beating the negative drum against him - but I just feel (obviously) very strongly that he is what ails this team.
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I didn't vote because this poll is Bull Sh*t nonsense.
Can we add this option to the choices?
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Derrick is learning on the job. But Junior brought it up just as much and averaged fewer assists last year than Derrick is right now (4.0, not 3). And in the past 5 games, Derrick is averaging 8.6 ppg, which is more than Junior averaged last year. The kid's a work in progress, but he's improving. I just don't get how anyone can't see that.
I said 3 because it is 3.2 not counting Grambling (and I think he will finish closer to 3 than 4, especially if his minutes decrease to more normal numbers), which wasn't a NCAA level team and we ran the whole game which we will likely never do again. I appreciate he had a big scoring game against ASU who didn't guard him at all, which is where the bulk of that 8.6 ppg comes from.
Look at it like this, if you were coaching against Marquette, would Derrick Wilson worry you other than finding innovative ways of using the man guarding him to help out elsewhere?
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I see Derrick as an above average back up point guard and just below average starting point guard. Not a knock on him but he just doesn't seem to have a killer instinct I'd like to see our floor general have. However if the team as a whole can get it going offensively and Derrick can put together a few full games of some of the flashes he has shown I can see him getting enough confidence to become an above average ( possibly above a average) starting point guard. I think he has the tools to be a terrific ask around player, it's just ask about getting him to use all of them consistently.
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Here's the thing. Watch Jake Thomas' guy. He doesn't collapse on the guys who can score all that much. JT is neutralized by having a guy guard him everywhere he goes. It's not that hard to do, but you still have to do it. He does provide breathing room for the interior guys.
You are correct, they are dropping off of Derrick and pretty much staying with Jake. You have to have some outside scoring from one of those guys though. Right now they are not getting it. My main point was you can win with a guy like Derrick if you have a shooter at the 2. You could also win with a shooter at the 1 like you suggest, but we do not have that right now. I think we will once Du Wilson gets back, but right now I think we could more easily replace the 2 with a better option. I think eventually that will happen.
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I think a good, high major point guard, in his Junior year, should average 10ppg, 6 assists, 1 steal, and no more than 2 turnovers per 30-35 minutes played.
2013 high-major NBA draftees...
Peyton Siva as a junior: 9.1 ppg, 5.6 assists, 1.7 steals, 3.4 TOs. Not a good enough PG for Ners. (L'ville made it to the Final Four)
MCW as a soph: 11.9 ppg, 7.3 assists, 2.8 steals, 3.4 TOs. Too many TOs for Ners
Lorenzo Brown junior: 12.4 ppg, 7.2 assists, 2 steals, 3.5 TOs. Take care of the ball, future NBA player!
Pierre Jackson as a junior: 13.8 ppg, 5.9 assists, 1.8 steals, 3.5 TO's. Too many TOs for Ners.
Trey Burke as a soph: 18.6 ppg, 6.7 assists, 1.6 steals, 2.2 TOs. Pretty close, but the TOs are a little concerning
Erick Green as a junior: 15.6 ppg, 2.8 assists, 1.3 steals, 1.5 TOs. If you want to be Ners' PG, you need to pass the ball, son!
Shane Larkin as a soph: 14.5 ppg, 4.6 assists, 2 steals, 2.3 TOs. Barely won the ACC with those numbers!
No wonder Ners doesn't like Derrick. He wouldn't like any point guard.
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Easily Junior over Derrick. Derrick does not have the court vision or the ability to make entry passes that Junior had. Derrick may protect the ball better and play better defense. But, Junior was simply a more instinctive PG. Ignore stats and trust the eye test.
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2013 high-major NBA draftees...
Peyton Siva as a junior: 9.1 ppg, 5.6 assists, 1.7 steals, 3.4 TOs. Not a good enough PG for Ners. (L'ville made it to the Final Four)
MCW as a soph: 11.9 ppg, 7.3 assists, 2.8 steals, 3.4 TOs. Too many TOs for Ners
Lorenzo Brown junior: 12.4 ppg, 7.2 assists, 2 steals, 3.5 TOs. Take care of the ball, future NBA player!
Pierre Jackson as a junior: 13.8 ppg, 5.9 assists, 1.8 steals, 3.5 TO's. Too many TOs for Ners.
Trey Burke as a soph: 18.6 ppg, 6.7 assists, 1.6 steals, 2.2 TOs. Pretty close, but the TOs are a little concerning
Erick Green as a junior: 15.6 ppg, 2.8 assists, 1.3 steals, 1.5 TOs. If you want to be Ners' PG, you need to pass the ball, son!
Shane Larkin as a soph: 14.5 ppg, 4.6 assists, 2 steals, 2.3 TOs. Barely won the ACC with those numbers!
No wonder Ners doesn't like Derrick. He wouldn't like any point guard.
Yep. And by the way, even JC didn't meet these numbers...yet Ners seems to think he should start this year.
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This is an easy question. Cadougan. I'd take Acker, Buycks, Cuby, and Marcus Jackson over Derrick Wilson at this poiont.
I'm still all for seeing if the women's team would share Brooklyn.
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If Derrick continues to get 30+ minutes per game, we are at best a bubble team - 19 wins.
I think a good, high major point guard, in his Junior year, should average 10ppg, 6 assists, 1 steal, and no more than 2 turnovers per 30-35 minutes played.
I was a little more optimistic for Derrick after ASU as they are at least a decent team, and he put up nice numbers - though Carson got off big against us, and Derrick was primary defender...
Has Derrick improved this year over last? Slightly, but let's be frank, there really wasn't much regression possible, as his performances to date set the bar extremely low.
My biggest beef with him, is that he isn't a playmaker in any sense of the word, at the position you need the most creativity, and play making ability.
Think Derrick is a high character guy, and great kid, and from that perspective I feel bad beating the negative drum against him - but I just feel (obviously) very strongly that he is what ails this team.
Those are some lofty goals. Last year there was only one player in the entire country that accomplished that, and Matthew Dellavedova is now playing in the NBA.
Okay...how does this wager sound:
- Make NCAA Tournament
- Derrick averages 6.0+ points per game
- Derrick averages 3.7+ assists per game
- Derrick averages <2.0 turnovers per game
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That's more points than Junior averaged for his career, more assists than Junior averaged for his career, and fewer turnovers than Junior averaged for his career. And a NCAA berth. If all those things happen, I win the bet. And the stakes are a self-imposed ban from MUScoop for one year. We start now. None of the previous games count. Starting with IUPUI, if Derrick makes those marks for the rest of the season, most of which will be against high-major defenses, I win and you don't post for a year. If you win and Derrick is as inadequate as you say, I will stop posting for a year.
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2013 high-major NBA draftees...
Peyton Siva as a junior: 9.1 ppg, 5.6 assists, 1.7 steals, 3.4 TOs. Not a good enough PG for Ners. (L'ville made it to the Final Four)
MCW as a soph: 11.9 ppg, 7.3 assists, 2.8 steals, 3.4 TOs. Too many TOs for Ners
Lorenzo Brown junior: 12.4 ppg, 7.2 assists, 2 steals, 3.5 TOs. Take care of the ball, future NBA player!
Pierre Jackson as a junior: 13.8 ppg, 5.9 assists, 1.8 steals, 3.5 TO's. Too many TOs for Ners.
Trey Burke as a soph: 18.6 ppg, 6.7 assists, 1.6 steals, 2.2 TOs. Pretty close, but the TOs are a little concerning
Erick Green as a junior: 15.6 ppg, 2.8 assists, 1.3 steals, 1.5 TOs. If you want to be Ners' PG, you need to pass the ball, son!
Shane Larkin as a soph: 14.5 ppg, 4.6 assists, 2 steals, 2.3 TOs. Barely won the ACC with those numbers!
No wonder Ners doesn't like Derrick. He wouldn't like any point guard.
Here's another,
Damian Lillard as a senior: 24.5ppg, 4.0 assists, 1.5 steals, 2.3 TOs
Season GP MPG PPG FG% 3FG% FT% APG RPG BPG SPG
2011-12 32 34.5 24.5 46.7 40.9 88.7 4.0 5.0 0.2 1.5
Too many turnovers, and not enough dimes.
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2013 high-major NBA draftees...
Peyton Siva as a junior: 9.1 ppg, 5.6 assists, 1.7 steals, 3.4 TOs. Not a good enough PG for Ners. (L'ville made it to the Final Four)
MCW as a soph: 11.9 ppg, 7.3 assists, 2.8 steals, 3.4 TOs. Too many TOs for Ners
Lorenzo Brown junior: 12.4 ppg, 7.2 assists, 2 steals, 3.5 TOs. Take care of the ball, future NBA player!
Pierre Jackson as a junior: 13.8 ppg, 5.9 assists, 1.8 steals, 3.5 TO's. Too many TOs for Ners.
Trey Burke as a soph: 18.6 ppg, 6.7 assists, 1.6 steals, 2.2 TOs. Pretty close, but the TOs are a little concerning
Erick Green as a junior: 15.6 ppg, 2.8 assists, 1.3 steals, 1.5 TOs. If you want to be Ners' PG, you need to pass the ball, son!
Shane Larkin as a soph: 14.5 ppg, 4.6 assists, 2 steals, 2.3 TOs. Barely won the ACC with those numbers!
No wonder Ners doesn't like Derrick. He wouldn't like any point guard.
Thanks for actually helping to prove my point - all these guys are sophomores or juniors and numbers are WAY better than Derrick. Oh, too bad, most of the guys went over on turnovers by 1-1.5 per game. Here's the deal - I'd much rather have a PG who turns the ball over a little more due to being aggressive, and being a playmaker as was Junior - than a ball protector who does NOTHING to be a playmaker, as is the way Derrick plays the point.
You can cherry pick on the turnover stat all you want - I just said off the top of my head what I feel are good PG numbers for a high major PG...Don't think wanting 10ppg, 6 assists, 1 steal and 2 turnovers in 30-35 minutes of action is asking a ridiculous amount from a starting PG..
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Those are some lofty goals. Last year there was only one player in the entire country that accomplished that, and Matthew Dellavedova is now playing in the NBA.
Okay...how does this wager sound:
- Make NCAA Tournament
- Derrick averages 6.0+ points per game
- Derrick averages 3.7+ assists per game
- Derrick averages <2.0 turnovers per game
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That's more points than Junior averaged for his career, more assists than Junior averaged for his career, and fewer turnovers than Junior averaged for his career. And a NCAA berth. If all those things happen, I win the bet. And the stakes are a self-imposed ban from MUScoop for one year. We start now. None of the previous games count. Starting with IUPUI, if Derrick makes those marks for the rest of the season, most of which will be against high-major defenses, I win and you don't post for a year. If you win and Derrick is as inadequate as you say, I will stop posting for a year.
Yes I'll gladly take this bet if we roll in Derrick's career numbers as you did for Cadougan - but wait, you say start now, but we have to use Junior's freshman, sophomore, and first 9 games of his Junior year factoring into the bet, but not Derrick??! Come on man..
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Those are some lofty goals. Last year there was only one player in the entire country that accomplished that, and Matthew Dellavedova is now playing in the NBA.
Okay...how does this wager sound:
- Make NCAA Tournament
- Derrick averages 6.0+ points per game
- Derrick averages 3.7+ assists per game
- Derrick averages <2.0 turnovers per game
.
That's more points than Junior averaged for his career, more assists than Junior averaged for his career, and fewer turnovers than Junior averaged for his career. And a NCAA berth. If all those things happen, I win the bet. And the stakes are a self-imposed ban from MUScoop for one year. We start now. None of the previous games count. Starting with IUPUI, if Derrick makes those marks for the rest of the season, most of which will be against high-major defenses, I win and you don't post for a year. If you win and Derrick is as inadequate as you say, I will stop posting for a year.
I'll take this bet, not because i think Derrick won't or can't do it, but because any guy who takes the time to go through everyone's previous post about our basketball team last year and praise themselves on their ability to predict the future and put everyone on blast is a _____. I'm in.
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That includes Junior's 3 turnovers in 12 freshman games. If Derrick has one bad TO night I'm done. That's more assists than June had as a senior. Fewer turnovers than either his junior or senior year. I hardly think those stakes are unreasonable. I need 4 things to happen to win the bet. You need one thing not to. Seems pretty fair to me.
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Thanks for actually helping to prove my point - all these guys are sophomores or juniors and numbers are WAY better than Derrick. Oh, too bad, most of the guys went over on turnovers by 1-1.5 per game. Here's the deal - I'd much rather have a PG who turns the ball over a little more due to being aggressive, and being a playmaker as was Junior - than a ball protector who does NOTHING to be a playmaker, as is the way Derrick plays the point.
You can cherry pick on the turnover stat all you want - I just said off the top of my head what I feel are good PG numbers for a high major PG...Don't think wanting 10ppg, 6 assists, 1 steal and 2 turnovers in 30-35 minutes of action is asking a ridiculous amount from a starting PG..
So basically, you want an NBA-bound PG and anything less is not good enough.
As brew pointed out, only one player put up those numbers last season. In fact, only 7 high major PGs averaged 6+ assists last season.
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I'll take this bet, not because i think Derrick won't or can't do it, but because any guy who takes the time to go through everyone's previous post about our basketball team last year and praise themselves on their ability to predict the future and put everyone on blast is a _____. I'm in.
Nope. This is a one-man bet. Nothing personal, JD, but you don't post near as much as Ners and aren't near as antagonistic in your attitude toward Derrick. I'm not inviting anyone on the site to put me on a ban for a year. Just Ners.
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That includes Junior's 3 turnovers in 12 freshman games. If Derrick has one bad TO night I'm done. That's more assists than June had as a senior. Fewer turnovers than either his junior or senior year. I hardly think those stakes are unreasonable. I need 4 things to happen to win the bet. You need one thing not to. Seems pretty fair to me.
Huh? I'd be an idiot to say, yes, let's make a bet on one players 4 year career numbers, but throw out the freshman and sophomore numbers of the other guy, and only begin the bet 9 games into a guys Junior year, and benchmark against the other guys whole career. Fair?? Don't know what universe you live in, but that in no way is an apples to apples bet..
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So basically, you want an NBA-bound PG and anything less is not good enough.
As brew pointed out, only one player put up those numbers last season. In fact, only 7 high major PGs averaged 6+ assists last season.
All I want is a guy who can put up more than 0 points and 1 assist in 39 minutes of action against Wisconsin...or Ohio State for that matter. Go look at the box and see what UW's guards did against us - none of whom are likely to sniff the pros - Jackson, Gasser, or Brust...
How you can continue to think Derrick Wilson hasn't been awful is beyond me...and apparently 72% of the posters who have voted in this poll..
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Then look at it like this: I'm basically using Junior's senior year statistics, with the only difference being that the points Junior gave away and turnovers I'm taking away from Derek's points scored. Sorry for spelling, on my phone.
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All I want is a guy who can put up more than 0 points and 1 assist in 39 minutes of action against Wisconsin...or Ohio State for that matter. Go look at the box and see what UW's guards did against us - none of whom are likely to sniff the pros - Jackson, Gasser, or Brust...
How you can continue to think Derrick Wilson hasn't been awful is beyond me...and apparently 72% of the posters who have voted in this poll..
Derrick scored 3 points in each of those games so there you go. He's your guy!
You're back-tracking. You said that you wanted a 10-6 guy who doesn't turn the ball over.
So anyone who would pick Cadougan over Derrick is saying that Wilson has been awful? That's not the poll question that YOU created.
I don't even think you know what you're arguing anymore. Instead of your ramblings, maybe just post "I DON'T LIKE DERRICK WILSON" instead and save yourself some time.
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Derrick scored 3 points in each of those games so there you go. He's your guy!
You're back-tracking. You said that you wanted a 10-6 guy who doesn't turn the ball over.
So anyone who would pick Cadougan over Derrick is saying that Wilson has been awful? That's not the poll question that YOU created.
My bad....if you can live with a high major PG who scores 6 points on 2 of 12 shooting, and gets 2 assists, 4 turnovers in 77 minutes of play against the two very good teams we've played....your standards must be exceedingly low...
You seriously are going to argue Derrick hasn't been awful?? I'd gladly take Brust, Gasser, or Traveon Jackson over Derrick in a heartbeat...and none of those guys are going to smell the NBA..
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Those are some lofty goals. Last year there was only one player in the entire country that accomplished that, and Matthew Dellavedova is now playing in the NBA.
Okay...how does this wager sound:
- Make NCAA Tournament
- Derrick averages 6.0+ points per game
- Derrick averages 3.7+ assists per game
- Derrick averages <2.0 turnovers per game
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Wow, that's a fair bet. He's going to be close to all of those numbers, I think. I'd take that wager for charitable donations or a case of beer or something. I think it is 60/40 brew would lose (those 3.7 apg will be difficult, particularly if Duane Wilson starts playing major minutes at PG). I wouldn't bet a year off of scoop, since living out in CT, this is my only real recourse for discussing MU hoops.
And though I have said a lot of negative things about Derrick's game, he seems a good kid, and I love MU hoops, and I would love nothing more than eating some serious crow when it comes to him.
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The thing that separate most of us is that some feel Derrick is the best point guard MU has to offer right now. And others, including myself, feels other players on the team, if given a couple of 35min per game opportunities, would shine brighter than Derrick has thus far.
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The thing that separate most of us is that some feel Derrick is the best point guard MU has to offer right now. And others, including myself, feels other players on the team, if given a couple of 35min per game opportunities, would shine brighter than Derrick has thus far.
Open question to everybody:
If there is a better option than Derrick, why doesn't Buzz play him?
Buzz isn't stupid. If he could get more production, he'd put in somebody else, right?
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My bad....if you can live with a high major PG who scores 6 points on 2 of 12 shooting, and gets 2 assists, 4 turnovers in 77 minutes of play against the two very good teams we've played....your standards must be exceedingly low...
You seriously are going to argue Derrick hasn't been awful?? I'd gladly take Brust, Gasser, or Traveon Jackson over Derrick in a heartbeat...and none of those guys are going to smell the NBA..
Derrick has not been "awful." Period. If he had been awful, he'd be on the bench and Buzz would be rotating Jamil, Dawson, Mayo, JJJ, etc at the point to try to find something that worked. A player who is "awful" is not going to see the floor for a high major team, let alone see it for 30+ minutes a game.
Of those UW guys you mentioned, which one is going to fill the 10/6/<2 criteria you laid out earlier?
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Open question to everybody:
If there is a better option than Derrick, why doesn't Buzz play him?
Buzz isn't stupid. If he could get more production, he'd put in somebody else, right?
Not if he doesn't trust freshmen to play those type of minutes. Also, Buzz can be wrong. There are many coaches that second guess themselves when it's over (game, season, career)...we just don't know it.
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Not if he doesn't trust freshmen to play those type of minutes. Also, Buzz can be wrong. There are many coaches that second guess themselves when it's over (game, season, career)...we just don't know it.
You don't play a kid 38, 39 and 39min in the 3 toughest games by accident (Derrick also played 33 in the SDSU game).
If Buzz was really second guessing himself, we would have seen a change in behavior in the UW game (had a week to prepare), right?
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Wow, that's a fair bet.
Interesting how everyone seems to think that except the guy it was offered to, who is making every excuse he can to not accept.
If Derrick gives us 6 ppg, 3.7 apg, and only 2 tpg while leading us to the NCAAs, I'd say that's as big a contribution numerically as Junior gave us last year as a senior. Yet somehow that's not good enough...
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You don't play a kid 38, 39 and 39min in the 3 toughest games by accident (Derrick also played 33 in the SDSU game).
If Buzz was really second guessing himself, we would have seen a change in behavior in the UW game (had a week to prepare), right?
Game, SEASON, CAREER...we'll never know, but he can be wrong.
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Derrick has not been "awful." Period. If he had been awful, he'd be on the bench and Buzz would be rotating Jamil, Dawson, Mayo, JJJ, etc at the point to try to find something that worked. A player who is "awful" is not going to see the floor for a high major team, let alone see it for 30+ minutes a game.
Of those UW guys you mentioned, which one is going to fill the 10/6/<2 criteria you laid out earlier?
Well Buzz has tinkered with having Jamil and Dawson run the point. Maybe he doesn't want to take Jamil out of his switchable role. JJJ isn't an option, came here as a 2 guard. Dawson's gotten a limited look, maybe Buzz isn't confident enough in him, and still thinks Derrick and his 6 points, 2 assists, on 2 of 12 shooting and 4 turnovers in 77 minutes of action is better than what Dawson would give - I just don't see it being probable that Dawson would be worse. Sorry.
And here's Traveon Jackson's numbers for the year...pretty on target..
Traevon Jackson 10 31.3 11.2 5.2 4.8 1.1 0.3 1.9
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Interesting how everyone seems to think that except the guy it was offered to, who is making every excuse he can to not accept.
If Derrick gives us 6 ppg, 3.7 apg, and only 2 tpg while leading us to the NCAAs, I'd say that's as big a contribution numerically as Junior gave us last year as a senior. Yet somehow that's not good enough...
So reviewed the numbers and Junior gave 8.5ppg, 3.5apg, and 2.5tpg playing 28 minutes on average last year...while playing in a much more rugged Big East than what Derrick will face this year...
So....I'll go with those above numbers as benchmarks and a Sweet 16 birth, as Junior's teams achieved that his sophomore, junior years, and then of course the Elite 8 last year.
So the bet as I see it from this point forward - Derrick needs to average:
7ppg, 3.5 assists, 2.5 tpg, while taking the team to the Sweet 16. If he fails in just 1 category - we call it a push. If he fails in 2 categories, I win...
Deal? Seems fair to me...
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Game, SEASON, CAREER...we'll never know, but he can be wrong.
You're right. It's entirely possible that Buzz is just wrong. I can admit that.
I'm just gravitating towards what I think is the simplest answer.
Dawson isn't ready yet.
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Nancy Lieberman
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You're right. It's entirely possible that Buzz is just wrong. I can admit that.
I'm just gravitating towards what I think is the simplest answer.
Dawson isn't ready yet.
And you may very well be right Guns...and it is no more than Buzz not feeling Dawson is ready yet....all I'm trying to say is that it really can't get much worse, and why not trot Dawson out there for 30 and see what happens? Maybe it is a disaster both offensively and defensively....but let's at least get a benchmark....just don't see the downside at this point at all...
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And you may very well be right Guns...and it is no more than Buzz not feeling Dawson is ready yet....all I'm trying to say is that it really can't get much worse, and why not trot Dawson out there for 30 and see what happens? Maybe it is a disaster both offensively and defensively....but let's at least get a benchmark....just don't see the downside at this point at all...
I disagree with this premise.
I never expect to D1 coach hand meaningful minutes to a kid "to see what happens".
Dawson has his chance in practice and against cupcakes. If he does well, then he'll get more meaningful minutes.
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It simply amazes me that so many people on this board still support Derrick WIlson. Do you even watch the games or just look at the stats? It should be apparent to anyone who watches basketball that WIlson is absolutely horrendous...I dont need stats to tell me that. He is a 3rd string caliber PG and that is it. If I was the opponent I would be ecstatic to have to face Wilson knowing his extreme limitations.
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And you may very well be right Guns...and it is no more than Buzz not feeling Dawson is ready yet....all I'm trying to say is that it really can't get much worse, and why not trot Dawson out there for 30 and see what happens? Maybe it is a disaster both offensively and defensively....but let's at least get a benchmark....just don't see the downside at this point at all...
Because it CAN get worse, particularly defensively. As I posted on a different thread, of all the scholarship players on MU's roster, Dawson has played the fewest minutes and he's a PG, which is the team's thinnest position, yet when he's in the game, he doesn't even run the point. What does that tell you?
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It simply amazes me that so many people on this board still support Derrick WIlson. Do you even watch the games or just look at the stats? It should be apparent to anyone who watches basketball that WIlson is absolutely horrendous...I dont need stats to tell me that. He is a 3rd string caliber PG and that is it. If I was the opponent I would be ecstatic to have to face Wilson knowing his extreme limitations.
It simply amazes me that so many people on this board know so little about basketball.
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It simply amazes me that so many people on this board know so little about basketball.
Wow that was a good one! ;)
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Wow that was a good one! ;)
I know.
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It simply amazes me that so many people on this board know so little about basketball.
Please Merritt - would you regal those basketball neophytes and the 75 percent of us that would prefer Junior running this team - and Junior was a guy who took a lot of sh$t from this board....Please do tell us how Derrick Wilson is such a good PG? Why is this Marquette team the most inefficient, and ineffective offensive team in Buzz's 6 years? We have more Top 100 talent on the roster than ever before, yet rank 270 in Field Goal percentage and 242 in points per game.
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Dawson or Duane Wilson should play point and the coaches should get them ready. We can't continue to play De Wilson and Thomas. They are the worst guard tandem MU has ever had.
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Dawson or Duane Wilson should play point and the coaches should get them ready. We can't continue to play De Wilson and Thomas. They are the worst guard tandem MU has ever had.
Even if we agree that this is a bad tandem...what immediately brings you to the conclusion that Derrick is the one to be replaced? I'd replace Jake with JJJ or Todd long before I'd replace Derrick with Dawson.
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Please Merritt - would you regal those basketball neophytes and the 75 percent of us that would prefer Junior running this team - and Junior was a guy who took a lot of sh$t from this board....Please do tell us how Derrick Wilson is such a good PG? Why is this Marquette team the most inefficient, and ineffective offensive team in Buzz's 6 years? We have more Top 100 talent on the roster than ever before, yet rank 270 in Field Goal percentage and 242 in points per game.
Man if I didn't have a podcast I was saving some information for I would throw some information in here that would have some relevance. But the bottom line is these sorts of things don't happen in a vacuum and opponents matter correct? Also you do realize that Wilson guarded Wisconsin's best perimeter player and guarded Janii Carson a consensus top 30 PG and no one in their right mind would do with Junior? Lastly, no one is saying Derrick is a fantastic point guard....neither was Junior, simply saying he is serviceable for the needs of the team and by far the best option on the CURRRENT team.
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Can I vote for Chris Paul? I think he would really help out.
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Man if I didn't have a podcast I was saving some information for I would throw some information in here that would have some relevance. But the bottom line is these sorts of things don't happen in a vacuum and opponents matter correct? Also you do realize that Wilson guarded Wisconsin's best perimeter player and guarded Janii Carson a consensus top 30 PG and no one in their right mind would do with Junior? Lastly, no one is saying Derrick is a fantastic point guard....neither was Junior, simply saying he is serviceable for the needs of the team and by far the best option on the CURRRENT team.
Really? So what did we do when Junior had to defend all the Big East point guards last year - Napier, Siva, and in the Wisconsin game last year, etc.? Junior didn't start, nor play the majority of minutes and Derrick did?? It's fine if you disagree with me, but don't manufacture total b.s.
And, saying Derrick is "serviceable" is a stretch, though I won't completely dismiss that as B.S. - he's a serviceable backup PG in my opinion....but guess he's apparently a lot better than Dawson, for Dawson to not even be able to take minutes from him - which absolutely shocks me.
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Really? So what did we do when Junior had to defend all the Big East point guards last year - Napier, Siva, and in the Wisconsin game last year, etc.? Junior didn't start, nor play the majority of minutes and Derrick did?? It's fine if you disagree with me, but don't manufacture total b.s.
And, saying Derrick is "serviceable" is a stretch, though I won't completely dismiss that as B.S. - he's a serviceable backup PG in my opinion....but guess he's apparently a lot better than Dawson, for Dawson to not even be able to take minutes from him - which absolutely shocks me.
Go back and watch the games, Vander guarded Siva and Napier. Wisconsin doesn't have an athletic point guard that defense has to be wildly concerned with. Oh and remember that time Junior was suspended for the Wisconsin game and Derrick played as a freshman and we won?