From an atmosphere standpoint, obviously way more SDSU fans than MU, but it wasn't that intimidating in my opinion. I wish, however, that the MU bench wasn't so close to the SDSU students that came up. Good for them for coming and supporting their school.
DG was clearly sick, got to see it come out in all it's detail in the first half. It really hurt us in my opinion.
Defensively, way too many second chances and put backs for them. Offensively, we missed some bunnies.
Burton, wow that was nice to see.
I love how our guys come out of the game and they high five everyone all the way down the bench, including every manager. Every player that came out did this except for one guy and every time that one guy didn't do it, just came in and sat down. I'll leave to you guys to guess who that was. I doubt it means a thing, but it was so different than every other guy it stood out.
The refs were pretty bad. The grey haired guy in particular....missed the out of bounds play, later he gave the ball to us to shoot a free throw near the end when SDSU had a guy foul out that hadn't checked out yet. Thought he missed several calls where DG was getting hammered down low but no call.
Overall, I still have some significant worries for this team. We have potential, no doubt, but we don't shoot well (again) and our offense is not very fluid. Defensively, we play hard and play well, but have to box out and rebound better than we did tonight.
Great game and loved seeing Burton turn it on!
Davante was obviously very sick as they were feeding him fluids on the bench. That said we were beaten on the boards by a very athletic team and refereed by an inept crew. Loved the F/U time out by Buzz with 3.2 seconds to go.
>>SDSU Dance Team>>>>>SDSU Cheerleaders.
>>Tom Eades was so far out of position on that blown Burton call that even Goody was laughing.
>>Fans from both teams were classy. Enjoyed them. Fun time.
>>Give the boys credit for their fight. Four games in a week. Flu, broken nose, hip flexor. Tired legs: giving up put backs, missed ft's and treys=no legs.
>>MU BB is class act. Creighton fans still drinking in bar. I am even tired.
>>Chicos=jinx???
My son believes he is the jinx. He has been to four MU games, all in California...we've lost them all. San Jose, San Diego, Anaheim for the NCAA tournaments, then again tonight. In the first three, they were all final seconds type of games. He's bummed. He didn't go to the MU win over Kentucky a few years ago in Anaheim.
Crazy.
The boys have some work to do. Next game at Madison, could very easily be 5-4 and no significant scalps to speak of.
I think I was directly across the baseline from you. Right next to Goody on the floor. That blown call even had the SDSU fans admitting it was bad. No jinx. Spending family time together is a win. Goody even had his family there. Go MU! The boys will be good.
Guessing Todd was the one not following the high-five trend?
Quote from: Jamil_toMU10 on December 02, 2013, 02:30:00 AM
Guessing Todd was the one night following the high-five trend?
Todd gives the impression he doesn't give a crap about anyone or anything else but himself.
Wait a second, every time I get good seats to a Marquette game, am I supposed to post pictures and give a recap from my vantage point? ;)
Rebounding and free throws lost us the game.
if Gardner was so sick what the hell was he doing on a rollercoaster? did his sickness just start to happen on gameday?
So, I'm thinking we can expect some other members of the team to come down with the flu in the next week.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 02, 2013, 01:06:14 AM
I think I was directly across the baseline from you. Right next to Goody on the floor. That blown call even had the SDSU fans admitting it was bad. No jinx. Spending family time together is a win. Goody even had his family there. Go MU! The boys will be good.
Wasn't Chicos the guy behind the TV table in the "Automatic" t-shirt... or was he just sitting there at halftime?
I hope it was the guy with the flu who wasn't following the high-five trend, but I don't think that was what you're getting at. Why did DG get so much PT if he was sick and ineffective? Why not play CO more? They both played about 23 min.
Quote from: Jamil_toMU10 on December 02, 2013, 02:30:00 AM
Guessing Todd was the one night following the high-five trend?
Correct. Maybe nothing, but it was so different from the rest of the players.
HighFive Gate Part Deux.
Good christ people.
Quote from: reinko on December 02, 2013, 08:51:23 AM
HighFive Gate Part Deux.
Good christ people.
Not the intent, just an observation. If it happened once, ok. Twice, ok. Three times, hmmm. Every time....interesting, but still an observation. Quite different from everyone else.
Digest as you wish.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 02, 2013, 12:38:45 AM
From an atmosphere standpoint, obviously way more SDSU fans than MU, but it wasn't that intimidating in my opinion. I wish, however, that the MU bench wasn't so close to the SDSU students that came up. Good for them for coming and supporting their school.
DG was clearly sick, got to see it come out in all it's detail in the first half. It really hurt us in my opinion.
Defensively, way too many second chances and put backs for them. Offensively, we missed some bunnies.
Burton, wow that was nice to see.
I love how our guys come out of the game and they high five everyone all the way down the bench, including every manager. Every player that came out did this except for one guy and every time that one guy didn't do it, just came in and sat down. I'll leave to you guys to guess who that was. I doubt it means a thing, but it was so different than every other guy it stood out.
The refs were pretty bad. The grey haired guy in particular....missed the out of bounds play, later he gave the ball to us to shoot a free throw near the end when SDSU had a guy foul out that hadn't checked out yet. Thought he missed several calls where DG was getting hammered down low but no call.
Overall, I still have some significant worries for this team. We have potential, no doubt, but we don't shoot well (again) and our offense is not very fluid. Defensively, we play hard and play well, but have to box out and rebound better than we did tonight.
If it was Gardner, probably for the better. Illnesses can spread like wildfire in such a confined space.
One call that wasn't mentioned is when DG was elbowed right in the chops near the end. Even if inadvertent, shame on the refs for not even catching it to make sure Davante was ok.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 02, 2013, 12:38:45 AM
From an atmosphere standpoint, obviously way more SDSU fans than MU, but it wasn't that intimidating in my opinion. I wish, however, that the MU bench wasn't so close to the SDSU students that came up. Good for them for coming and supporting their school.
DG was clearly sick, got to see it come out in all it's detail in the first half. It really hurt us in my opinion.
Defensively, way too many second chances and put backs for them. Offensively, we missed some bunnies.
Burton, wow that was nice to see.
I love how our guys come out of the game and they high five everyone all the way down the bench, including every manager. Every player that came out did this except for one guy and every time that one guy didn't do it, just came in and sat down. I'll leave to you guys to guess who that was. I doubt it means a thing, but it was so different than every other guy it stood out.
The refs were pretty bad. The grey haired guy in particular....missed the out of bounds play, later he gave the ball to us to shoot a free throw near the end when SDSU had a guy foul out that hadn't checked out yet. Thought he missed several calls where DG was getting hammered down low but no call.
Overall, I still have some significant worries for this team. We have potential, no doubt, but we don't shoot well (again) and our offense is not very fluid. Defensively, we play hard and play well, but have to box out and rebound better than we did tonight.
Pretty good analysis, though I'm not really worried about guys high fiving managers when they come out of games. Maybe the rest of our team is too nice.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 02, 2013, 12:58:28 AM
My son believes he is the jinx. He has been to four MU games, all in California...we've lost them all. San Jose, San Diego, Anaheim for the NCAA tournaments, then again tonight. In the first three, they were all final seconds type of games. He's bummed. He didn't go to the MU win over Kentucky a few years ago in Anaheim.
Crazy.
The boys have some work to do. Next game at Madison, could very easily be 5-4 and no significant scalps to speak of.
Is CA a distraction? I've noticed we have struggled in games, overall, in warmer weather climates. South Florida, CA. I would think that it can be a distraction and I remember one of the teams with the 3 amigos out at the beach for hours the day before a game. Not a good idea, in my opinion.
I think it maybe a distraction and an advantage for the "home" teams such as San Diego. Less distracted by the weather and sites of LA/CA.
My son and I sat in the hot-tub with three of SDSU player Saturday night at the team hotel. Nice kids....they were actually lamenting on having to play the late game on Sunday. They wanted to play on that evening (Saturday)...because the wanted to get home early to get ready for Monday classes (seriously). Which leads to my question...did MU fly home after the game or did they leave this morning (Monday). I recall last years Buzz upset that the team had to leave the hotel after the NCAA tournament...so I was wondering if the same rules apply for a this tournament. If they left after the game...the team would not have gotten back until 4 am this morning.
The late game prevented my family from staying and watch the game...we had to leave earlier in the day so the kids could be back for school on Monday.
Quote from: ecompt on December 02, 2013, 07:49:37 AM
Todd gives the impression he doesn't give a crap about anyone or anything else but himself.
I don't think that's the case. I just think Todd doesn't show emotion... postive or negative.
If there's a bad call, Todd doesn't get upset. If he throws one down on a guy, he doesn't crack a smile. He just keeps playing.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on December 02, 2013, 10:51:34 AM
I don't think that's the case. I just think Todd doesn't show emotion... postive or negative.
If there's a bad call, Todd doesn't get upset. If he throws one down on a guy, he doesn't crack a smile. He just keeps playing.
Spot on!
Quote from: TallTitan34 on December 02, 2013, 10:51:34 AM
I don't think that's the case. I just think Todd doesn't show emotion... postive or negative.
If there's a bad call, Todd doesn't get upset. If he throws one down on a guy, he doesn't crack a smile. He just keeps playing.
This is true, but it doesn't fit the narrative.
Therefore: selfish ballhog volume shooter bad grades.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 02, 2013, 09:37:29 AM
Pretty good analysis, though I'm not really worried about guys high fiving managers when they come out of games. Maybe the rest of our team is too nice.
Fair points. I liked it more from the perspective that it appeared they went out of their way to show everyone is part of the team, all the way down to the managers. I liked that. When I was with the Angels and Ducks, similar stuff...down to the bat boy, everyone was respectful to everyone. I think it's good for team chemistry, but also probably reading way too much into it.
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 02, 2013, 11:35:37 AM
This is true, but it doesn't fit the narrative.
Therefore: selfish ballhog volume shooter bad grades.
Here are the KPom grades I see:
Todd Mayo: Orating of 107.2, 24% of possessions and shots, defensive rebounding rate of 15%, assist rate of 16.5%, turnover rate of 18.5%, free throw rate of 58%, % of minutes: 44.7%
Jake Thomas: 100.4 ORating, 15% of possessions and 18% of shots, defensive rebounding rate of 7%, assist rate of 11%, turnover rate of 17%, free throw rate of 30% of minutes. % of minutes: 63%
If you saw those numbers without the names attached and were asked to pick a two guard starter, who would you pick? I love Jake, I get why he starts, but in an offense that bogs down and lacks a consistent volume scorer at the shooting guard, Todd is by far the best solution.
Now in terms of percent of shots and him being selfish, consider this: Gardner 27% of shots, JWilson is at 27% of shots, Burton 28%. All forwards...and many of them forced or ill timed. Why? No two guard threat.
The offense and defense are much better with Todd in there. And I think it hurts Jake to start and play so many minutes as defenses are able to plan for him, leaving him no space to even get a shot off...and he needs space.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 02, 2013, 12:17:39 PM
Todd Mayo: Orating of 107.2, 24% of possessions and shots, defensive rebounding rate of 15%, assist rate of 16.5%, turnover rate of 18.5%, free throw rate of 58%, % of minutes: 44.7%
Jake Thomas: 100.4 ORating, 15% of possessions and 18% of shots, defensive rebounding rate of 7%, assist rate of 11%, turnover rate of 17%, free throw rate of 30% of minutes. % of minutes: 63%
If you saw those numbers without the names attached and were asked to pick a two guard starter, who would you pick? I love Jake, I get why he starts, but in an offense that bogs down and lacks a consistent volume scorer at the shooting guard, Todd is by far the best solution.
The offense and defense are much better with Todd in there. And I think it hurts Jake to start and play so many minutes as defenses are able to plan for him, leaving him no space to even get a shot off...and he needs space.
Jake's hustle play at the end of the Friday game is why he is playing. Buzz puts a lot of credence to those types of plays.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 02, 2013, 12:17:39 PM
Here are the KPom grades I see:
Todd Mayo: Orating of 107.2, 24% of possessions and shots, defensive rebounding rate of 15%, assist rate of 16.5%, turnover rate of 18.5%, free throw rate of 58%, % of minutes: 44.7%
Jake Thomas: 100.4 ORating, 15% of possessions and 18% of shots, defensive rebounding rate of 7%, assist rate of 11%, turnover rate of 17%, free throw rate of 30% of minutes. % of minutes: 63%
If you saw those numbers without the names attached and were asked to pick a two guard starter, who would you pick? I love Jake, I get why he starts, but in an offense that bogs down and lacks a consistent volume scorer at the shooting guard, Todd is by far the best solution.
Now in terms of percent of shots and him being selfish, consider this: Gardner 27% of shots, JWilson is at 27% of shots, Burton 28%. All forwards...and many of them forced or ill timed. Why? No two guard threat.
The offense and defense are much better with Todd in there. And I think it hurts Jake to start and play so many minutes as defenses are able to plan for him, leaving him no space to even get a shot off...and he needs space.
Comparison using Net Points, which is an imperfect measure that understates defense. However, this comparison isn't close.
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee41/roblowe14/ThomasvsMayo.png) (http://s228.photobucket.com/user/roblowe14/media/ThomasvsMayo.png.html)
Quote from: Henry Sugar on December 02, 2013, 12:30:23 PM
Comparison using Net Points, which is an imperfect measure that understates defense. However, this comparison isn't close.
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee41/roblowe14/ThomasvsMayo.png) (http://s228.photobucket.com/user/roblowe14/media/ThomasvsMayo.png.html)
Eek.
I have to wonder what Buzz is seeing in practice, or what he is trying to get out of Mayo by limiting his minutes.
Jake is a role player. When he hits shots, he's useful. When he doesn't, he's not.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 02, 2013, 12:17:39 PM
The offense and defense are much better with Todd in there. And I think it hurts Jake to start and play so many minutes as defenses are able to plan for him, leaving him no space to even get a shot off...and he needs space.
Great post, Doc. And you're absolutely correct. Jake would be better served in spot minutes, where they can focus on getting him shots.
I don't get why Todd gets such stick around here. I can see he has matured this season, and I'd like to see what he can do as a starter.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 02, 2013, 08:47:05 AM
Correct. Maybe nothing, but it was so different from the rest of the players.
I meant "not" following the trend, oops. I noticed the same when photographing the team vs. UNH. He often seems to sit kind of separated from the team too or in between a couple coaches. His demeanor seems a bit more independent and he keeps to himself, but one would think he would like to high five his guys. I did see when Jake left him hanging at the FT line last night though.
Buzz has been getting out coached plain and simple.
Quote from: Dreadman24 on December 02, 2013, 12:42:26 PM
Buzz has been getting out coached plain and simple.
Based on what? What coaching move has he made that you would change?
Quote from: mu03eng on December 02, 2013, 12:47:58 PM
Based on what? What coaching move has he made that you would change?
If I was coaching MU, I'd have more of my players' shots go in. It's such a simple fix. I don't know why Buzz isn't doing that!
Quote from: Henry Sugar on December 02, 2013, 12:30:23 PM
Comparison using Net Points, which is an imperfect measure that understates defense. However, this comparison isn't close.
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee41/roblowe14/ThomasvsMayo.png) (http://s228.photobucket.com/user/roblowe14/media/ThomasvsMayo.png.html)
As always, excellent...that is a 23 point swing between the two for just through the SDSU game...yikes indeed!
Quote from: Henry Sugar on December 02, 2013, 12:30:23 PM
Comparison using Net Points, which is an imperfect measure that understates defense. However, this comparison isn't close.
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee41/roblowe14/ThomasvsMayo.png) (http://s228.photobucket.com/user/roblowe14/media/ThomasvsMayo.png.html)
What are these charts showing? A revamped version of +/-?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 02, 2013, 12:54:18 PM
What are these charts showing? A revamped version of +/-?
The chart shows "cumulative net points", which tries to take the margin of victory and assign credit (or blame) to various players for the margin of victory.
The "net points" stat looks at a player's offensive and defensive contributions on top of how much time they play and then assigns that credit. Cumulative net points look at the trends for a player over time... increasing shows positive play and decreasing shows negative play. Most of the time, a player's net points end up around zero.
There are all kinds of flaws with it, mostly on the defensive end. However, I like the stat because it generally passes the red-faced test when looking at the trends for player performance.
Quote from: Henry Sugar on December 02, 2013, 01:49:17 PM
The chart shows "cumulative net points", which tries to take the margin of victory and assign credit (or blame) to various players for the margin of victory.
The "net points" stat looks at a player's offensive and defensive contributions on top of how much time they play and then assigns that credit. Cumulative net points look at the trends for a player over time... increasing shows positive play and decreasing shows negative play. Most of the time, a player's net points end up around zero.
There are all kinds of flaws with it, mostly on the defensive end. However, I like the stat because it generally passes the red-faced test when looking at the trends for player performance.
Can you provide the Dwil vs. Dawson comparisons?
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 02, 2013, 01:56:38 PM
Can you provide the Dwil vs. Dawson comparisons?
Here's the same comparison, but it's not exactly fair. JW has three DNPs and far fewer minutes.
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee41/roblowe14/JWvsDW.png) (http://s228.photobucket.com/user/roblowe14/media/JWvsDW.png.html)
I think this one does a better job of highlighting the two.
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee41/roblowe14/JWvsDW2.png) (http://s228.photobucket.com/user/roblowe14/media/JWvsDW2.png.html)
At the least, DWilson has four "net positive" games. Dawson has zero, and he has three DNP-CD games as well. Wilson's ceiling is probably to end up around net-neutral for the year. But that's okay, especially in comparison to the other options.
Quote from: mu03eng on December 02, 2013, 12:47:58 PM
Based on what? What coaching move has he made that you would change?
Hmmm...Try playing JT less, JA less; Burton and JJJ more. Taking Burton out at about the 3 minute mark when he was carrying the team was a real good move. Those are just a few suggestions.
Quote from: Henry Sugar on December 02, 2013, 01:49:17 PM
The chart shows "cumulative net points", which tries to take the margin of victory and assign credit (or blame) to various players for the margin of victory.
The "net points" stat looks at a player's offensive and defensive contributions on top of how much time they play and then assigns that credit. Cumulative net points look at the trends for a player over time... increasing shows positive play and decreasing shows negative play. Most of the time, a player's net points end up around zero.
There are all kinds of flaws with it, mostly on the defensive end. However, I like the stat because it generally passes the red-faced test when looking at the trends for player performance.
Thanks for the info.
Quote from: willie warrior on December 02, 2013, 02:24:57 PM
Hmmm...Try playing JT less, JA less; Burton and JJJ more. Taking Burton out at about the 3 minute mark when he was carrying the team was a real good move. Those are just a few suggestions.
Time for clarification...
Deonte was substituted out at the 5:24 mark when MU was down 51-50. At that point, he had been in the game about 7:30.
When he returned to the game at the 3:54 mark, it was tied at 53.
So when Deonte was out, Marquette actually went +1.
Regarding high-five-gate part 2. There was one moment where Jake was at the line and Mayo came from center court to give Jake five and Jake did not notice him there.
Quote from: mu-rara on December 02, 2013, 12:26:37 PM
Jake's hustle play at the end of the Friday game is why he is playing. Buzz puts a lot of credence to those types of plays.
Yes he had an effort play in a game where we already had a safe lead but that's OK. On the other hand last night he ran through a screen and fouled a 3 point shooter as he was taking an off balance 3 with the shot clock expiring resulting in 3 free throws and in a 1 point deficit becoming a 4 point deficit with about 2 minutes left in the game. I'm all for effort but he simply isn't at the same level athletically as the other guys on both those teams and at critical times it can cost us dearly.
FREETHROWS! If we make freethrows we win. If we don't we lose. We missed too many free throws in this game period.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on December 02, 2013, 03:21:04 PM
FREETHROWS! If we make freethrows we win. If we don't we lose. We missed too many free throws in this game period.
I'll bet that's all they do at practice this week.
Quote from: Henry Sugar on December 02, 2013, 12:30:23 PM
Comparison using Net Points, which is an imperfect measure that understates defense. However, this comparison isn't close.
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee41/roblowe14/ThomasvsMayo.png) (http://s228.photobucket.com/user/roblowe14/media/ThomasvsMayo.png.html)
Scary part of that graph seems to indicate even when Jake was "breaking" out in the first two games of the classic he was some what trending downward. Hmmm, I do have to think the defensive flaws in the stat are exaggerating his negative. Don't get me wrong, he's bad and Mayo and JJJ should be getting more minutes from him, but his defense has been good.
Quote from: mu03eng on December 02, 2013, 03:50:59 PM
Scary part of that graph seems to indicate even when Jake was "breaking" out in the first two games of the classic he was some what trending downward. Hmmm, I do have to think the defensive flaws in the stat are exaggerating his negative. Don't get me wrong, he's bad and Mayo and JJJ should be getting more minutes from him, but his defense has been good.
Yeah, totally agreed. I actually stopped running these types of stats for a while because of Dominic James' senior season. James' defense was clearly suffocating, but because he didn't collect many defensive stats (blocks, defensive rebounds, or steals) he always showed worse.
Jake is getting dinged in this comparison by the same measure. However, is his defense good enough to justify the disparity? Not likely...