MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: wadesworld on December 01, 2013, 09:36:08 PM
-
...is the least of our worries. Derrick is tough.
-
Best player on the floor for MU in the first half.
-
+1
-
Best player on the floor for MU in the first half.
Yup. And he did it all with 2 fouls early on.
-
He only has one foul. I think that 2nd moving screen call was on DG
-
Dawson would have had a triple double by now.
-
Best player on the floor for MU in the first half.
I would say mayo then Derrick. His d was suspect for a bit.
-
Best player on the floor for MU in the first half.
Unfortunately, the game is two halves, and Derrick was not one of the better players on the court after halftime. Went scoreless, missed layups, wasn't close on a wide-open 5-footer, fired a complete scud of a 3-point attempt, had to be taken out of the game late (again) because he can't shoot. Every time I think, "You know, he's improving," there's a stretch like, well, pretty much the entire second half, when SDSU finally figured out that you simply don't have to defend Derrick outside the lane.
I don't think he was our main problem tonight -- we had far too many missed FTs and dopey turnovers -- but when your PG can't hit anything outside of 3 feet and the opposing PG lights us up, well, the PG matchup was a pretty big problem for Marquette.
-
MU82- I find myself agreeing with you more often than not, but you're leaving out that he hurt himself early in the second half. He lost that half step that got him to the hoop in the first half.
Not quite fair to compare the two directly.
-
MU82- I find myself agreeing with you more often than not, but you're leaving out that he hurt himself early in the second half. He lost that half step that got him to the hoop in the first half.
Not quite fair to compare the two directly.
Looked like he pulled a groin muscle. Before that he was (by far) our best player. Without him, the game was over at halftime. Your post is a much appreciated bit of sanity on what has become an increasingly deranged board. Thank you.
-
Kinda tired of reading here that point guard "is the least of our problems." We gotta lot of problems, but I can't remember a point guard with more problems in 40+ years of watching MU bball. Can't shoot, can't dribble left, doesn't make free throws, doesn't set up teammates where they want/need the ball, barks at them after he makes mistakes. What does he bring? Seriously? I remember his defense being touted too. Haven't seen it.
Did see this coming though. Thought that with Blue, Mayo, and the freshman guards, the ways that Wilson could hurt us would be masked. Now he is fully exposed. In my view, Derrick W has never lived up to any of the hype that might have been thrown out there about him, not that a many of us believed in any of it once our eyes told us otherwise. Was supposed to be a lock-down defender if nothing else. He's not that by any stretch.
Marquette has had a deep history of diminutive point guards: DJ, Mo Acker, Cordell Henry, Cubillian, Cadoughan, Aaron Hutchins...to name just a few. They all could play though. Haven't seen him play for a nanosecond, but this old Warrior can't wait for the the Duane Wilson era to begin--it won't be soon enough.
-
Derrick is a mixed bag. First half he had success taking it to the hoop when his defender completely leaves him to double the post or cover other shooters. Allowed some easy layups.
That said, his defense was pretty bad in the first half and he had 3 TOs with only 2 assists. If Cadougan had done that this board would have been screaming for his head.
2nd half was bad, hopefully because of his groin.
Problem is we can't feed the post and have no driving lanes, because the defenders are not respecting him as a PG. He also has poor court vision.
He is a serviceable PG, but probably the worst starting PG we have had in at least 2 decades.
-
Once again, he was the best MU player on the floor in the first half. After his fall, he lagged. Jamil, CO, and Davante (forgiven due to illness) were far larger problems. Juan and STjr were bigger problems.
-
5.5ppg, 4.4apg, and (amazingly) 4.3rpg along with stifling defense and no foul trouble (for a guy that used to hand-check like he was in euro-league).
Junior's junior year: 6.3/5.4/2.1. So, half a basket and one assist better than DW in his first year as a starter.
Best stat: DW shoots BETTER than Junior did!
I also wish he was more aggressive, but if you told me at the beginning of the year we'd get these stats from DW I'd take it!
-
Derrick gets a bad rap from MU fans. Is he going to be the star of the team and an all-conference performer? No, but he has definitely stepped up his game, especially since the OSU game. Over his last 4, Derrick is shooting 50% from the floor, 71% from the line and averaging 10 points, 4.8 assists, 3.8 rebounds and only 1.8 TOs. Obviously that's a small sample size, but those are very good numbers for a PG.
Same goes for Jake. If he scores 7 ppg and shoots 36.6% from 3 for the season, I'd be very pleased. Both Jake and Derrick have raised their games this season.
-
Kinda tired of reading here that point guard "is the least of our problems." We gotta lot of problems, but I can't remember a point guard with more problems in 40+ years of watching MU bball. Can't shoot, can't dribble left, doesn't make free throws, doesn't set up teammates where they want/need the ball, barks at them after he makes mistakes. What does he bring? Seriously? I remember his defense being touted too. Haven't seen it.
Did see this coming though. Thought that with Blue, Mayo, and the freshman guards, the ways that Wilson could hurt us would be masked. Now he is fully exposed. In my view, Derrick W has never lived up to any of the hype that might have been thrown out there about him, not that a many of us believed in any of it once our eyes told us otherwise. Was supposed to be a lock-down defender if nothing else. He's not that by any stretch.
Marquette has had a deep history of diminutive point guards: DJ, Mo Acker, Cordell Henry, Cubillian, Cadoughan, Aaron Hutchins...to name just a few. They all could play though. Haven't seen him play for a nanosecond, but this old Warrior can't wait for the the Duane Wilson era to begin--it won't be soon enough.
Hype? Where the f*ck was the Derrick Wilson hype on this board? If anything, the guy has been unfairly trashed.
Can't shoot? He has the same shooting percentage as JJJ and Todd Mayo, and nearly a full ten percentage points better than Jake Thomas...you know...our "shooting guards."
Can't defend? Open your eyes. I thought the "lockdown defender" title was always a bit too much, but he is generally where he needs to be when he needs to be there. Light years ahead of Junior Cadougan in that regard.
-
Hype? Where the f*ck was the Derrick Wilson hype on this board? If anything, the guy has been unfairly trashed.
Can't shoot? He has the same shooting percentage as JJJ and Todd Mayo, and nearly a full ten percentage points better than Jake Thomas...you know...our "shooting guards."
Can't defend? Open your eyes. I thought the "lockdown defender" title was always a bit too much, but he is generally where he needs to be when he needs to be there. Light years ahead of Junior Cadougan in that regard.
Tesify.
-
DeWilson has been a different player in the Western time zone. He has been much more aggressive the past 4 games. His lack of a jump shot coupled with his lack of creative passing ability are problematic, but he's a plus defender and as long as he can take it to the rim 5 times a game and make something happen he will be OK.
If you look at basketball as totalling up the contributions of each position and comparing it to the contributions of the opponent at those positions, we are going to lose the battle at PG more often than not. But we knew that going in, and it shouldn't keep us from being a successful team. We lost a good chunk of those battles last year, too. We've got to win those other battles where we expect to win, particularly at the PF and C spots.
The two biggest reasons we lost last night was our inability to keep SDSU off the offensive boards and our poor FT shooting. Gardner being under the weather may have had a lot to do with both of those things. I'm not a big DeWilson supporter, but poor PG play is not the takeaway lesson from last night's loss.
-
He's a role player.
That's not a problem.
The real problem is that MU has too many role players right now.
Jamil, Juan and Todd flat out need to be better. We've seen flashes out of each... but they just need to be better. When they play well, then Derrick fills his role perfectly. When they play poorly, then Derrick is exposed.
-
Kinda tired of reading here that point guard "is the least of our problems." We gotta lot of problems, but I can't remember a point guard with more problems in 40+ years of watching MU bball. Can't shoot, can't dribble left, doesn't make free throws, doesn't set up teammates where they want/need the ball, barks at them after he makes mistakes. What does he bring? Seriously? I remember his defense being touted too. Haven't seen it.
Did see this coming though. Thought that with Blue, Mayo, and the freshman guards, the ways that Wilson could hurt us would be masked. Now he is fully exposed. In my view, Derrick W has never lived up to any of the hype that might have been thrown out there about him, not that a many of us believed in any of it once our eyes told us otherwise. Was supposed to be a lock-down defender if nothing else. He's not that by any stretch.
Marquette has had a deep history of diminutive point guards: DJ, Mo Acker, Cordell Henry, Cubillian, Cadoughan, Aaron Hutchins...to name just a few. They all could play though. Haven't seen him play for a nanosecond, but this old Warrior can't wait for the the Duane Wilson era to begin--it won't be soon enough.
These are wrong. IF you don't realize his defensive ability after last night, I don't know what to tell you. For the last 6-8 minutes Derrick was all over Thames. In fact, that's the reason Shepherd was shooting at the end (and how Jake got called for the 3pt foul) - Derrick had completely shut down they opposing PG and made it impossible for him to get the ball.
-
He's a role player.
That's not a problem.
The real problem is that MU has too many role players right now.
Jamil, Juan and Todd flat out need to be better. We've seen flashes out of each... but they just need to be better. When they play well, then Derrick fills his role perfectly. When they play poorly, then Derrick is exposed.
That is exactly the problem, each individual brings something to the game, but not enough. Derrick would be fine if the 2 guard and wing could shot the ball, but they can not. Both games on the road, the other teams point guard has been the focal point of there team, and really beat MU. The bottom line is the need for Duane Wilson to get healthy. I am not saying he is the total answer until he gets going, but I saw enough of him to realized he can score a little bit. Still a big jump to college ball, will he bring it every night, time will tell.
-
That is exactly the problem, each individual brings something to the game, but not enough. Derrick would be fine if the 2 guard and wing could shot the ball, but they can not. Both games on the road, the other teams point guard has been the focal point of there team, and really beat MU. The bottom line is the need for Duane Wilson to get healthy. I am not saying he is the total answer until he gets going, but I saw enough of him to realized he can score a little bit. Still a big jump to college ball, will he bring it every night, time will tell.
I hope you're right... but in my mind it might be easier to find production out of Jamil, Todd and Juan vs a true frosh. PG. Get those guys to produce, and then Derrick is fine. If those guys struggle, then Derrick will struggle.
-
I hope you're right... but in my mind it might be easier to find production out of Jamil, Todd and Juan vs a true frosh. PG. Get those guys to produce, and then Derrick is fine. If those guys struggle, then Derrick will struggle.
Unfortunately, Jamil, Todd and Juan have had enough time to figure out they are not the answer. Jamil to inconsistent, Juan brings nothing most of the time, and Todd, well is Todd, at
times good but most of the time, just average. Duane could be special, has the offensive mind set, much like Deonte.
-
"Can't shoot? He has the same shooting percentage as JJJ and Todd Mayo, and nearly a full ten percentage points better than Jake Thomas...you know...our "shooting guards."
A bit misleading...
The issue is he can't shoot more than 5 feet from the basket - defense sags off of him and then it's 4 on 5.
If teams sagged off of JJJ, Mayo or Thomas, they have the ability to step up and hit a outside shot.
-
Everyone is talking about how improved D. Wilson has been the last few games, they fail to mention that a large reason that his scoring has been up is because of the change in defense towards him. He is not guarded...his man is 6 feet away at the closest and is doubling the post to deny ball entry instead of focusing on Wilson. The help defenders are offering no help and sticking with the shooters.
That means D. Wilson can drive uncontested and just has to get his shot off once in the lane. I've never seen a defense guard a D1 PG in that way. He better be scoring more, no one is guarding him.
People are calling for more production out of the wings, but they are not getting great looks, because there men never leave them. They also can't get kick outs from the post (the best way for a jump shooter to get a good shot), because the post is being doubled by D. Wilson's man, even before the ball is getting into the post.
There are a lot of problems with this team, inconsistent shooting, bad floor spacing, lack of leadership and bad PG play. I'm not saying that D. Wilson shouldn't be playing, but he has been bad and the improvement is a reflection of how the defenses ignore him...aka not a threat.
-
Everyone is talking about how improved D. Wilson has been the last few games, they fail to mention that a large reason that his scoring has been up is because of the change in defense towards him.
Ohio State and New Hampshire didn't guard him, either. At least give him credit for adjusting and attacking more.
-
Everyone is talking about how improved D. Wilson has been the last few games, they fail to mention that a large reason that his scoring has been up is because of the change in defense towards him. He is not guarded...his man is 6 feet away at the closest and is doubling the post to deny ball entry instead of focusing on Wilson. The help defenders are offering no help and sticking with the shooters.
That means D. Wilson can drive uncontested and just has to get his shot off once in the lane. I've never seen a defense guard a D1 PG in that way. He better be scoring more, no one is guarding him.
People are calling for more production out of the wings, but they are not getting great looks, because there men never leave them. They also can't get kick outs from the post (the best way for a jump shooter to get a good shot), because the post is being doubled by D. Wilson's man, even before the ball is getting into the post.
There are a lot of problems with this team, inconsistent shooting, bad floor spacing, lack of leadership and bad PG play. I'm not saying that D. Wilson shouldn't be playing, but he has been bad and the improvement is a reflection of how the defenses ignore him...aka not a threat.
Derrick isn't a good shooter, and teams are sagging off. That is correct.
However, the idea that a good shooting PG would magically solve Jamil, Juan and Todd's deficiencies is too simplistic.
If that were the case, MU could simply insert Mayo at the PG, and the offense would magically open up. I don't think that is a the case.
-
Everyone is talking about how improved D. Wilson has been the last few games, they fail to mention that a large reason that his scoring has been up is because of the change in defense towards him. He is not guarded...his man is 6 feet away at the closest and is doubling the post to deny ball entry instead of focusing on Wilson. The help defenders are offering no help and sticking with the shooters.
That means D. Wilson can drive uncontested and just has to get his shot off once in the lane. I've never seen a defense guard a D1 PG in that way. He better be scoring more, no one is guarding him.
People are calling for more production out of the wings, but they are not getting great looks, because there men never leave them. They also can't get kick outs from the post (the best way for a jump shooter to get a good shot), because the post is being doubled by D. Wilson's man, even before the ball is getting into the post.
There are a lot of problems with this team, inconsistent shooting, bad floor spacing, lack of leadership and bad PG play. I'm not saying that D. Wilson shouldn't be playing, but he has been bad and the improvement is a reflection of how the defenses ignore him...aka not a threat.
I agree with this post, ^^^
D. Wilson needs to hit a couple of his wide open 3 ops...this could change the whole outlook of MU's offense. Even if he shot and missed, it would at least show he's not scared and maybe build confidence for his future game. Over and over again during this SDST game the ball would move around the perimeter, someone would drive and kick the ball out to a wide open player for a good quality 3 attempt... unfortunately, this wide open player was too often D Wilson and he would restart the offense. He just won't take the shot!!! This is very frustrating for a fan and makes D Wilson an easy target.
But, what was even more frustrating was the poor FT shooting, poor rebounding/blocking out, poor inbounding....basically, this team made a lot of bad basketball plays. These kids don't seem to be able to find a rhythm. What's the cause of this? I say Buzz and Staff, but see above for many opinions on this, most of which seem to focus on D. Wilson. I don't know if DW is a legitimate punching bag or not, but what I can see is Buzz and Staff do not have this team ready to win games against better than average teams which makes this team not so good at the moment. If this level of play continues these kids will be watching the selection show in nervous anticipation because they will be bouncing on that bubble again.
I sure hope Buzz can get these kids rolling because I need some positive threads to read.
Lurky Lurkenson
-
You guys are total buffoons. We haven't had a good shooting PG since Diener graduated. How did Louisville do last year? Siva is an atrocious shooter. I'm not comparing Wilson to Siva, but you guys are embarrassing yourselves thinking Wilson is a problem. He's one of the only guys playing well consistently. He's a better player than Junior was. A better athlete, a better defender and way, way better at protecting the ball.
The consistency of our bigs (in both effort and performance) is the problem. Also, this talk of Mayo this and Mayo that and his minutes and Thomas's minutes is another indication that some of you don't know what you're watching. Thomas starts and gets big minutes because he has shown an ability to get hot that Mayo has not. Mayo has shown he can score but he's also shown an uncanny ability to take bad shots and sulk. If the two of them were to miss time, we'd miss Thomas infinitely more than Mayo. That's just a fact. Matter of fact, I think JaJuan is on the verge of taking minutes from Mayo and I hope he does.
-
Everyone is talking about how improved D. Wilson has been the last few games, they fail to mention that a large reason that his scoring has been up is because of the change in defense towards him. He is not guarded...his man is 6 feet away at the closest and is doubling the post to deny ball entry instead of focusing on Wilson. The help defenders are offering no help and sticking with the shooters.
That means D. Wilson can drive uncontested and just has to get his shot off once in the lane. I've never seen a defense guard a D1 PG in that way. He better be scoring more, no one is guarding him.
People are calling for more production out of the wings, but they are not getting great looks, because there men never leave them. They also can't get kick outs from the post (the best way for a jump shooter to get a good shot), because the post is being doubled by D. Wilson's man, even before the ball is getting into the post.
There are a lot of problems with this team, inconsistent shooting, bad floor spacing, lack of leadership and bad PG play. I'm not saying that D. Wilson shouldn't be playing, but he has been bad and the improvement is a reflection of how the defenses ignore him...aka not a threat.
I think the looks that our shooters are getting are no better nor worse than they were last year. But I do agree with the packing in the paint problem. The issue is that I am not sure what MU can do at this point.
-
You guys are total buffoons. We haven't had a good shooting PG since Diener graduated. How did Louisville do last year? Siva is an atrocious shooter.
I don't know how you could watch last night and not think that Derrick Wilson doesn't have a major negative impact on Davante Gardner. Wilson's man is able is double down on Gardner BEFORE he gets the ball. That hurts DG, and it also hurts Thomas because his man doesn't have to leave him to double the post because Marquette's opposition rule is and will be leave Derrick Wilson to double at all times. If Gardner kicks it back to Derrick the defense doesn't have to scramble to get back to the ball so there is no payment or risk associated with doubling the post. Makes us easier to guard. Granted Cadougan was no lights out shooter, but he certainly commanded more respect from oppostion defenses.
Derrick is taking the first steps toward remedying this issue by penetrating more. Seems to me we could be effective by having him set more screens on the perimeter for Thomas on ball side when the ball goes down low or by running through the lane and having the rest of the guys rotate. Anything to force the defense to scramble more.
-
We need a star. Davante is close but it's hard to have a star in the post because the other team can more easily defend/take them out of the game with certain defenses.
Really need Jamil, Todd, or one of the freshman (Burton?) make the other team respect their scoring ability.
-
Everyone is talking about how improved D. Wilson has been the last few games, they fail to mention that a large reason that his scoring has been up is because of the change in defense towards him. He is not guarded...his man is 6 feet away at the closest and is doubling the post to deny ball entry instead of focusing on Wilson. The help defenders are offering no help and sticking with the shooters.
That means D. Wilson can drive uncontested and just has to get his shot off once in the lane. I've never seen a defense guard a D1 PG in that way. He better be scoring more, no one is guarding him.
People are calling for more production out of the wings, but they are not getting great looks, because there men never leave them. They also can't get kick outs from the post (the best way for a jump shooter to get a good shot), because the post is being doubled by D. Wilson's man, even before the ball is getting into the post.
There are a lot of problems with this team, inconsistent shooting, bad floor spacing, lack of leadership and bad PG play. I'm not saying that D. Wilson shouldn't be playing, but he has been bad and the improvement is a reflection of how the defenses ignore him...aka not a threat.
Wow - somebody gets it!! The reason our wings and bigs are struggling so much is because Derrick Wilson is a total and complete non factor to hurt you from the perimeter. Defenses sag off of him, pack the paint, and it makes it far more difficult for the bigs, or wings to get looks when you can help off a Point Guard so much.
And please, all the excuses that his 2nd half was the effect of the groin - as some have pointed out - he was chasing the SDSU point guard all over the floor, denying him the ball down the stretch. He didn't lose an millisecond of quickness or explosion. He is who he is - a guy who can score going right at the basket..and a very good defender.
-
Wow - somebody gets it!! The reason our wings and bigs are struggling so much is because Derrick Wilson is a total and complete non factor to hurt you from the perimeter. Defenses sag off of him, pack the paint, and it makes it far more difficult for the bigs, or wings to get looks when you can help off a Point Guard so much.
And please, all the excuses that his 2nd half was the effect of the groin - as some have pointed out - he was chasing the SDSU point guard all over the floor, denying him the ball down the stretch. He didn't lose an millisecond of quickness or explosion. He is who he is - a guy who can score going right at the basket..and a very good defender.
My God you're a clueless boob.
-
Wow - somebody gets it!! The reason our wings and bigs are struggling so much is because Derrick Wilson is a total and complete non factor to hurt you from the perimeter. Defenses sag off of him, pack the paint, and it makes it far more difficult for the bigs, or wings to get looks when you can help off a Point Guard so much.
And please, all the excuses that his 2nd half was the effect of the groin - as some have pointed out - he was chasing the SDSU point guard all over the floor, denying him the ball down the stretch. He didn't lose an millisecond of quickness or explosion. He is who he is - a guy who can score going right at the basket..and a very good defender.
OK....who should he have played instead?
-
MU82- I find myself agreeing with you more often than not, but you're leaving out that he hurt himself early in the second half. He lost that half step that got him to the hoop in the first half.
Not quite fair to compare the two directly.
Fair point. I hope his injury was the reason, and I hope he is 100% healthy by Saturday.
Still, if one looks at Derrick's body of work one fourth of the way through his first season as starter, the jury is still out.
The point Sultan made about Derrick having a higher shooting pct than our shooting guards is much more of an indictment of our shooting guards than credit to Derrick. If Derrick had to take shots from the same spots on the floor where we need the shooting guards to take them, Derrick would be shooting 0.00%. If Derrick had to shoot from where ASU's Carson and SDSU' s Thames did in order to propel their teams to victory, Derrick would be shooting 0.00%. In fact, he already is. Unless I'm mistaken, he hasn't made a single jump shot this season. Hasn't even made a 3-foot floater. As a result, defenses simply don't have to play him.
So again, while PG play is not our only problem, and might not even be the No. 1 problem (although that's debatable), it continues to be a problem.
-
Fair point. I hope his injury was the reason, and I hope he is 100% healthy by Saturday.
Still, if one looks at Derrick's body of work one fourth of the way through his first season as starter, the jury is still out.
The point Sultan made about Derrick having a higher shooting pct than our shooting guards is much more of an indictment of our shooting guards than credit to Derrick. If Derrick had to take shots from the same spots on the floor where we need the shooting guards to take them, Derrick would be shooting 0.00%. If Derrick had to shoot from where ASU's Carson and SDSU' s Thames did in order to propel their teams to victory, Derrick would be shooting 0.00%. In fact, he already is. Unless I'm mistaken, he hasn't made a single jump shot this season. Hasn't even made a 3-foot floater. As a result, defenses simply don't have to play him.
So again, while PG play is not our only problem, and might not even be the No. 1 problem (although that's debatable), it continues to be a problem.
If Wilson average 15 ppg but was careless with the basketball and couldn't defend at all, would people still consider PG a problem? I can guarantee that there wouldn't be nearly as many threads about him if that was the case.
So far, Derrick is averaging 5.5 points and 4.4 assists. That means he's accounting for about 14.3 ppg (assume 2 pts per assist). Last season Junior averaged 8.5 points and 3.8 assists so he accounted for about 16.1 ppg. Throw in the fact that Junior averaged nearly 1 more TO/game and it's pretty close to being a wash in terms of offensive production.
-
OK....who should he have played instead?
This is the crux of it, isn't it? If Dawson isn't ready to go yet, our options appear to be Mayo, who has a scorer's mentality, or Jamil Wilson, who doesn't really have the necessary handle. So we will continue with Derrick until he graduates or until Buzz thinks Dawson or Duane Wilson can do better. Derrick has shown that if he can get to the rim he can score. That means if he gets by the first defender (not an easy task when he is sagging 6 feet in) he can draw help and distribute. He now has something to build on. Next step is to start pulling up and hitting 5-7 footers so he can draw enough of a crowd that he can pass to someone who is open in a place where he can do some damage. Do-able, I think.
-
This is the crux of it, isn't it? If Dawson isn't ready to go yet, our options appear to be Mayo, who has a scorer's mentality, or Jamil Wilson, who doesn't really have the necessary handle. So we will continue with Derrick until he graduates or until Buzz thinks Dawson or Duane Wilson can do better. Derrick has shown that if he can get to the rim he can score. That means if he gets by the first defender (not an easy task when he is sagging 6 feet in) he can draw help and distribute. He now has something to build on. Next step is to start pulling up and hitting 5-7 footers so he can draw enough of a crowd that he can pass to someone who is open in a place where he can do some damage. Do-able, I think.
I think the best we can hope for is that Dawson or Duane improve enough to take 10-15 minutes of Derrick's time.
-
So far, Derrick is averaging 5.5 points and 4.4 assists. That means he's accounting for about 14.3 ppg (assume 2 pts per assist). Last season Junior averaged 8.5 points and 3.8 assists so he accounted for about 16.1 ppg. Throw in the fact that Junior averaged nearly 1 more TO/game and it's pretty close to being a wash in terms of offensive production.
Basketball stats relation to winning and losing are not as simple as this. DeWilson is doing this with minimal defensive attention being paid to him when compared to Cadougan, meaning that while he is accumulating similar stats to Cadougan, everyone else's job is harder because they are facing an extra defender. (Well, maybe 3/4 of an extra defender).
-
Derrick has shown that if he can get to the rim he can score. That means if he gets by the first defender (not an easy task when he is sagging 6 feet in) he can draw help and distribute. He now has something to build on. Next step is to start pulling up and hitting 5-7 footers so he can draw enough of a crowd that he can pass to someone who is open in a place where he can do some damage. Do-able, I think.
I agree on how Derrick needs to evolve to get better.
However, I disagree that he is a large part of the "problem" right now. Jamil and Davante are all-conf. type players. They need to play as such. Juan, Chris and Todd should be solid contributors. They need to play like it. Steve Taylor needs to learn how to play basketball. Not sure what is going on with him.
Get that stuff squared away, and I think Derrick fills his role adequately.
If Derrick suddenly started shooting better, I'm not sure the other issues would go away automatically, as others have implied.
-
If Wilson average 15 ppg but was careless with the basketball and couldn't defend at all, would people still consider PG a problem? I can guarantee that there wouldn't be nearly as many threads about him if that was the case.
So far, Derrick is averaging 5.5 points and 4.4 assists. That means he's accounting for about 14.3 ppg (assume 2 pts per assist). Last season Junior averaged 8.5 points and 3.8 assists so he accounted for about 16.1 ppg. Throw in the fact that Junior averaged nearly 1 more TO/game and it's pretty close to being a wash in terms of offensive production.
Does it have to be an either/or proposition? Is the only option that if our PG scores double-digits he automatically would be a careless offensive player and horrible defender?
It isn't about averages, it's about the way a PG makes a defense react. Junior could hit two 15-foot jumpers in a row and, therefore, make the defense at least account for him. I will take one more TO per game to have a PG who can make the defense worry about him at least a little bit.
Earlier, somebody mentioned Siva's shooting. Again, not the best argument to defend Derrick. Siva could get hot. Siva could get on a roll and carry a team. Defenses couldn't just stand 10 feet away from Siva and say, "Go ahead, shoot." Siva also was a relentless, effective, dangerous driver to the hoop. I would trade Derrick for Siva in a millisecond, and so would every other Scooper who thinks about it.
We love the "what-ifs" here on Scoop. So how 'bout this: What if we have Carson or Thames and our opponent had Derrick or a Derrick clone? Would we have beaten both ASU and SDSU? I say yes -- and fairly easily.
-
However, I disagree that he is a large part of the "problem" right now. Jamil and Davante are all-conf. type players. They need to play as such. Juan, Chris and Todd should be solid contributors. They need to play like it. Steve Taylor needs to learn how to play basketball. Not sure what is going on with him.
Couldn't some of Gardner's and Wilson's problems be related to the PG, though? Those guys need to get the ball in position where they can do something with it
Too many times we're giving Gardner the ball on a telegraphed pass further away from the basket than last year with an immediate double-team and no shooters to pass to. That's not just DeWil, that's JT, too.
Too many times Jamil is receiving the ball when he's 25 feet from the basket moving in the wrong direction with a defender on him and help waiting in the lane. He's not a guy who gets the ball like that and just creates. We shouldn't expect him to.
-
Couldn't some of Gardner's and Wilson's problems be related to the PG, though? Those guys need to get the ball in position where they can do something with it
Too many times we're giving Gardner the ball on a telegraphed pass further away from the basket than last year with an immediate double-team and no shooters to pass to. That's not just DeWil, that's JT, too.
Too many times Jamil is receiving the ball when he's 25 feet from the basket moving in the wrong direction with a defender on him and help waiting in the lane. He's not a guy who gets the ball like that and just creates. We shouldn't expect him to.
I think you have this spot on. Jr. was much, much better at hitting the open man (sometimes when they did not even expect it) than Derrick. IMO Jr. was a far better passer, sometimes taking chances. (Something like Brett Favre in football--I can thread it through 3 defenders.)
-
Couldn't some of Gardner's and Wilson's problems be related to the PG, though? Those guys need to get the ball in position where they can do something with it
Too many times we're giving Gardner the ball on a telegraphed pass further away from the basket than last year with an immediate double-team and no shooters to pass to. That's not just DeWil, that's JT, too.
Too many times Jamil is receiving the ball when he's 25 feet from the basket moving in the wrong direction with a defender on him and help waiting in the lane. He's not a guy who gets the ball like that and just creates. We shouldn't expect him to.
You're right that it's related... but it's not like MU was a GREAT shooting team last year, and REALLY BAD this year.
They were/are below average both years.
Now, if Diener was playing PG, certainly it would help... but it wouldn't change all of the FTs that Davante has missed, and it wouldn't make Jamil more assertive.
The best players need to be better. Once that happens, I'll start worrying about Derrick.
-
The best players need to be better. Once that happens, I'll start worrying about Derrick.
I do think PG is a bigger problem than you do, but I also agree 100% that we need far more out of Jamil and other supposed leaders/standouts. It's THEIR team. Derrick is just a role player, and it's not as if we have many other options at PG.
-
Does it have to be an either/or proposition? Is the only option that if our PG scores double-digits he automatically would be a careless offensive player and horrible defender?
It isn't about averages, it's about the way a PG makes a defense react. Junior could hit two 15-foot jumpers in a row and, therefore, make the defense at least account for him. I will take one more TO per game to have a PG who can make the defense worry about him at least a little bit.
Earlier, somebody mentioned Siva's shooting. Again, not the best argument to defend Derrick. Siva could get hot. Siva could get on a roll and carry a team. Defenses couldn't just stand 10 feet away from Siva and say, "Go ahead, shoot." Siva also was a relentless, effective, dangerous driver to the hoop. I would trade Derrick for Siva in a millisecond, and so would every other Scooper who thinks about it.
We love the "what-ifs" here on Scoop. So how 'bout this: What if we have Carson or Thames and our opponent had Derrick or a Derrick clone? Would we have beaten both ASU and SDSU? I say yes -- and fairly easily.
My point about Derrick's scoring was that fans like points. If a guy doesn't score many points, fans want him replaced. If a guy occasionally scores some points, especially in the form of 3s or dunks, let him play 40 minutes! Fans like points! (intentional hyperbole)
Yes, I would like a future NBA player (Siva, Carson, etc) running the point over Derrick Wilson. So would Buzz. But what does that have to do with anything? While we're at it, what if MU had Julius Randle instead of Gardner and Marcus Smart instead of Jake? I bet MU would be 8-0!
Great comment by Guns n Ammo: The best players need to be better. Once that happens, I'll start worrying about Derrick.
-
I do think PG is a bigger problem than you do, but I also agree 100% that we need far more out of Jamil and other supposed leaders/standouts. It's THEIR team. Derrick is just a role player, and it's not as if we have many other options at PG.
Yea, and just to be clear, I fully realize that when Derrick plays well, he's only above average, and when he plays "okay", he's still below average.
His ceiling just isn't that high. I get it.
But, I had higher expectations for other guys on the team, Jamil and Davante specifically. When those guys play well, and the other upperclassman fill their roles (Todd, Chris, Juan, Derrick), I think this team can be pretty good.
If the best players aren't playing well, I don't know if any of the others are consistent enough or good enough to pick up the slack, and that's when you see them struggle.
-
Can't shoot? He has the same shooting percentage as JJJ and Todd Mayo, and nearly a full ten percentage points better than Jake Thomas...you know...our "shooting guards."
Quite a difference when comparing "shooters" vs. someone who only takes layups. Not to mention that the 'shooter' has to beat someone to get open or before getting into the lane as opposed to being unguarded outside the lane. And if the "shooter drives, more often than not, he has to deal with the 5th defender who is not required to guard his man (PG who cannot shoot past 3 feet from the hoop).
-
Now, if Diener was playing PG, certainly it would help... but it wouldn't change all of the FTs that Davante has missed, and it wouldn't make Jamil more assertive.
The best players need to be better. Once that happens, I'll start worrying about Derrick.
I do agree that last night Derrick was not the primary or even the secondary reason we lost. We missed too many FTs and allowed too many putbacks to blame our PG, who actually did a good job on the defensive boards and by knocking a few balls away from their interior guys under the basket. From an overall season perspective, hoqwever IMO PG is our biggest positional concern.
-
I do agree that last night Derrick was not the primary or even the secondary reason we lost. We missed too many FTs and allowed too many putbacks to blame our PG, who actually did a good job on the defensive boards and by knocking a few balls away from their interior guys under the basket. From an overall season perspective, hoqwever IMO PG is our biggest positional concern.
Fair enough.
I'm more concerned about Jamil... but maybe my own expectations are just too high.
I think Derrick can go 5/5/5 and the team can win a lot of games.
Jamil has to be better than 10/5 if MU wants to win a lot of games. He's gotta be higher usage and higher efficiency.
-
They blew out Gw, why, Jamil had 20 in the first half, as Jamil goes, so goes this team.
-
They blew out Gw, why, Jamil had 20 in the first half, as Jamil goes, so goes this team.
Jamil had 20 v. Fullerton. They blew out GW and Jamil only had 5.
-
My God you're a clueless boob.
Says the guy who thought Mayo was terrible against GW...talk about clueless.
-
My point about Derrick's scoring was that fans like points. If a guy doesn't score many points, fans want him replaced. If a guy occasionally scores some points, especially in the form of 3s or dunks, let him play 40 minutes! Fans like points! (intentional hyperbole)
Yes, I would like a future NBA player (Siva, Carson, etc) running the point over Derrick Wilson. So would Buzz. But what does that have to do with anything? While we're at it, what if MU had Julius Randle instead of Gardner and Marcus Smart instead of Jake? I bet MU would be 8-0!
Great comment by Guns n Ammo: The best players need to be better. Once that happens, I'll start worrying about Derrick.
I'm going to give most fans here on Scoop credit for recognizing that a player can be valuable even if he isn't scoring many points. Maybe I shouldn't, but I will.
I was only using the Carson/Derrick what-if to illustrate what a difference a guard who can hit the occasional jumper might make to the team. And I think you're smart enough to know that.
-
If Wilson average 15 ppg but was careless with the basketball and couldn't defend at all, would people still consider PG a problem? I can guarantee that there wouldn't be nearly as many threads about him if that was the case.
So far, Derrick is averaging 5.5 points and 4.4 assists. That means he's accounting for about 14.3 ppg (assume 2 pts per assist). Last season Junior averaged 8.5 points and 3.8 assists so he accounted for about 16.1 ppg. Throw in the fact that Junior averaged nearly 1 more TO/game and it's pretty close to being a wash in terms of offensive production.
Numbers aren't telling the whole story...The offense is not running optimally because D Wilson presents no chance to hit a shot outside of 5 ft. He is absolutely atrocious on the offensive end and his lack of a jump shot is clogging things up for the rest of the players on the court. Cadoughan at least could drive and penetrate and give teammates open looks. The offense is stagnant with him running the point and it's disheartening to watch.
-
Derrick isn't a good shooter, and teams are sagging off. That is correct.
However, the idea that a good shooting PG would magically solve Jamil, Juan and Todd's deficiencies is too simplistic.
If that were the case, MU could simply insert Mayo at the PG, and the offense would magically open up. I don't think that is a the case.
Not saying it would resolve all the deficiencies, you are right...that would be too simplistic. Just indicating it is a large part of the issue and those looking at the points production out of Wilson and saying he is doing well are not understanding the larger scope of his role/effect on the offense.
The other aspect having a large effect on all aspects of our offense is poor floor spacing (independent of D. Wilson's defender). We have too many guys trying to occupy the same space on the floor. That is not helping at all. This is most pronounced in the JUMBO lineup...which frankly isn't working.
A third aspect that I haven't seen discussed much is the lack of effective screens/picks in our offense. The offense just seems like chaos...no one is setting a screen, thus people aren't getting open.
An improved PG would help seems dramatically, but fixing the others would also improve the offense. Since I don't think we have a better option at PG (sadly) we need to improve the efficiency and spacing of the offense.
-
Yes, I would like a future NBA player (Siva, Carson, etc) running the point over Derrick Wilson. So would Buzz. But what does that have to do with anything? While we're at it, what if MU had Julius Randle instead of Gardner and Marcus Smart instead of Jake? I bet MU would be 8-0!
Or if we had Shabazz Napier...
http://youtu.be/QLcOj6Z7Fus
-
Or if we had Shabazz Napier...
http://youtu.be/QLcOj6Z7Fus
I'd settle for a PG who hits 2-3 outside shots -- even 15-footers -- a game, just to make the opponent think he might occasionally burn them from outside.
But that's not the hand we've been dealt, at least so far this season.
Maybe Derrick will improve. Maybe Duane will get healthy and be a revelation. Maybe Dawson will grow up in a hurry. Maybe Jamil will play more PG than forward and play up to his potential. Maybe Mayo will log more time at 1.
Or maybe we're just going to be a team with a PG who can't make a single shot beyond 3 feet all season and we'll have to find other ways to win.
-
Dawson would have had a triple double by now.
+1
-
Wow - somebody gets it!! The reason our wings and bigs are struggling so much is because Derrick Wilson is a total and complete non factor to hurt you from the perimeter. Defenses sag off of him, pack the paint, and it makes it far more difficult for the bigs, or wings to get looks when you can help off a Point Guard so much.
And please, all the excuses that his 2nd half was the effect of the groin - as some have pointed out - he was chasing the SDSU point guard all over the floor, denying him the ball down the stretch. He didn't lose an millisecond of quickness or explosion. He is who he is - a guy who can score going right at the basket..and a very good defender.
Defenses dont even have to be honest when your 35 plus minute pg hasnt hit a jumpshot all season and the only point guard who has hit a 3 this year dawson... Doesnt even play against any team worth talkkng about.
-
Derrick is getting a bad rap by most, blame the assistant coach who recruited him. Derrick is fine if he had 4 other players who could score around him, with a limited offensive team, Derrick
just does not fit this team. Can not run an offense when the point guard defender is not near him. Dawson might have been as bad against Thames but they might have to guard him, can
not win right now against a decent team without a scoring point. This might be Buzz's worst team unless he makes some changes quickly. Should be Devante, JWill, Burton, Mayo and Wilson, get an offensive team around Derrick. Jake is a 10 minute guy at most.
-
OK, I'll blame the assistant coach who recruited him.
-
OK, I'll blame the assistant coach who recruited him.
He is in Memphis.
-
Derrick is getting a bad rap by most, blame the assistant coach who recruited him. Derrick is fine if he had 4 other players who could score around him, with a limited offensive team, Derrick
just does not fit this team. Can not run an offense when the point guard defender is not near him. Dawson might have been as bad against Thames but they might have to guard him, can
not win right now against a decent team without a scoring point. This might be Buzz's worst team unless he makes some changes quickly. Should be Devante, JWill, Burton, Mayo and Wilson, get an offensive team around Derrick. Jake is a 10 minute guy at most.
Wilson is a good pg just not a Starter or 38 Min guy and im sure he knows that. There aren't many top 50 teams he'd even play 15 MPG for.
No knock on him. When i played basketball if the coach gave me lions share minutes id take em with no problem. But his defense is supposed to be so world renouned and i watched Thames and Carson of arizona state Torch him for 20 and 29 so it aint that great.
Thomas is not a 30 minute guy either no way no how. These guys just dont have the talent to be starters their good ROLE players.
Dawson should be getting at least 10-15 mpg against more than grambling state the kid had a good inside and out w gardner against GW and hit the open 3. Something we havent seen from our 35 mpg guy all year. All im saying is with the starting back court we have and the future pgs injured and stacking up DNPs we should be concerned. Wilsons a great kid but just doesnt threaten opposing defenders and cant feed the post so the offense will remain stagnant.
-
I'm going to give most fans here on Scoop credit for recognizing that a player can be valuable even if he isn't scoring many points. Maybe I shouldn't, but I will.
I was only using the Carson/Derrick what-if to illustrate what a difference a guard who can hit the occasional jumper might make to the team. And I think you're smart enough to know that.
Therein lies your problem. The majority of Scoop posters, and basketball fans in general (not unique to MU) focus on points. Points are simple and clean and straightforward. Scoring points gets your name in the paper.
I understood the point you were trying to make but your examples were pretty ridiculous. If you want to claim that the offense would be better with a guy like Mo Acker running the point, I'd agree with you. It doesn't need to be a potential lottery pick.
-
Therein lies your problem. The majority of Scoop posters, and basketball fans in general (not unique to MU) focus on points. Points are simple and clean and straightforward. Scoring points gets your name in the paper.
I understood the point you were trying to make but your examples were pretty ridiculous. If you want to claim that the offense would be better with a guy like Mo Acker running the point, I'd agree with you. It doesn't need to be a potential lottery pick.
+10000
You dont need Kyrie Irving as pg. But i mean if you cant feed the post or hit an open shot every now and then. Well how far do you expect to go. Gardner is playing well even tho hes virtually double teamed 90% of the time before he even gets the ball by a sagging defender and thats a problem. The defenses arent even honest when defending the perimeter.
-
The other aspect having a large effect on all aspects of our offense is poor floor spacing (independent of D. Wilson's defender). We have too many guys trying to occupy the same space on the floor. That is not helping at all. This is most pronounced in the JUMBO lineup...which frankly isn't working.
You are very much correct on this point. The Jumbo lineup frankly sucks. I think Buzz knows it is ineffective, but really had limited options when Jamil got himself into early foul trouble. Taylor hasn't been playing well...and Burton is a freshman. Hopefully after Burton's performance we will see more of him in that role.
-
He is not guarded...his man is 6 feet away at the closest and is doubling the post to deny ball entry instead of focusing on Wilson. The help defenders are offering no help and sticking with the shooters.
This. Wilson isn't the worst player, but he's sure making his own job, of getting our best scorers their best chance to score, a lot tougher. I'm actually fine with him just taking the 15 footer when there are no defenders in site, but it it looks like the decision has been made that he isn't going to.
-
You are very much correct on this point. The Jumbo lineup frankly sucks. I think Buzz knows it is ineffective, but really had limited options when Jamil got himself into early foul trouble. Taylor hasn't been playing well...and Burton is a freshman. Hopefully after Burton's performance we will see more of him in that role.
The same problem the Knicks have Carmelo and Amare play in the same
Area and they have no spacing
-
Not saying it would resolve all the deficiencies, you are right...that would be too simplistic. Just indicating it is a large part of the issue and those looking at the points production out of Wilson and saying he is doing well are not understanding the larger scope of his role/effect on the offense.
The other aspect having a large effect on all aspects of our offense is poor floor spacing (independent of D. Wilson's defender). We have too many guys trying to occupy the same space on the floor. That is not helping at all. This is most pronounced in the JUMBO lineup...which frankly isn't working.
A third aspect that I haven't seen discussed much is the lack of effective screens/picks in our offense. The offense just seems like chaos...no one is setting a screen, thus people aren't getting open.
An improved PG would help seems dramatically, but fixing the others would also improve the offense. Since I don't think we have a better option at PG (sadly) we need to improve the efficiency and spacing of the offense.
I agree with you... sort of.
I definitely see where a good shooting PG would help this team. (that's easy).
What I can't figure out is how they were fine last year with Junior (who is a poor shooter) when teams sagged off of him, but now this year its a HUGE problem. It's not like MU is significantly worse this year than they were last year. Yes, Junior took more jumpers than Derrick. He also MISSED a lot of jumpers, and teams sagged off of him.
That's why I don't think a better shooting PG is the magic bullet for this team. Would it help? Yes. Would it "solve" what is happening? I don't think so.
I hate to make it too simple... but the best players need to play better. Once that happens, then things will flow better, and we'll see how the PG play looks.
-
I hate to make it too simple... but the best players need to play better. Once that happens, then things will flow better, and we'll see how the PG play looks.
I don't think you're making it too simple at all. When we make shots (Grambling, ASU, CSF, GW) no one seems to complain about our point guard play despite DeWil not being a distance shooter. When we don't, (Southern, tOSU, UNH, SDSU), he gets criticized and his shooting woes come to the forefront. Jamil, Davante, and Todd are the stars of this team. When they produce, no one (well, almost no one) complains about Derrick. When they struggle, he catches most of the flack for their poor performances.