Time to start him.
Quote from: PTM on November 29, 2013, 03:52:17 PM
Time to start him.
I agree. Thanks for making an intelligent post for once.
Brew's going to love this.
Quote from: PTM on November 29, 2013, 04:33:57 PM
Brew's going to love this.
I'm sure Brew will....and he can once again make a ridiculous argument about how good of PG Derrick Wilson is. Derrick is the weakest link on the team as far as how good he is with respect to the position he plays.
Quote from: Ners on November 29, 2013, 04:43:12 PM
I'm sure Brew will....and he can once again make a ridiculous argument about how good of PG Derrick Wilson is. Derrick is the weakest link on the team as far as how good he is with respect to the position he plays.
I still think that honor goes to Jake.
Quote from: esard2011 on November 29, 2013, 04:45:03 PM
I still think that honor goes to Jake.
If Jake is shooting 40%+ from 3PL, he's not a weak link.
Excellent trolling, PTM. Perfectly executed, and as expected, the bait was quickly snatched up on your joke post. Tip of the cap to you, sir.
(http://1389blog.com/pix/HatTipSmileyAnim.gif)
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 29, 2013, 04:52:16 PM
Excellent trolling, PTM. Perfectly executed, and as expected, the bait was quickly snatched up on your joke post. Tip of the cap to you, sir.
(http://1389blog.com/pix/HatTipSmileyAnim.gif)
Dawson for Three!!! Its good
Flood took a 3 in the Fullerton game. Too bad it didn't go in, because if it did we could offer that as proof that he should be starting over Jamil!
Quote from: Ners on November 29, 2013, 04:43:12 PM
I'm sure Brew will....and he can once again make a ridiculous argument about how good of PG Derrick Wilson is. Derrick is the weakest link on the team as far as how good he is with respect to the position he plays.
What more does Derrick need to do to prove to you that he is a halfway decent PG? He's been great the last three games.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 30, 2013, 03:50:15 AM
What more does Derrick need to do to prove to you that he is a halfway decent PG? He's been great the last three games.
Change his name to John Dawson and magically get two more years of eligibility?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 30, 2013, 03:50:15 AM
What more does Derrick need to do to prove to you that he is a halfway decent PG? He's been great the last three games.
His stand on this issue has nothing to do with Derrick's ability as a PG...and everything to do with Ners' inability to admit that he was wrong.
He's just doubling down.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on November 30, 2013, 08:03:26 AM
Change his name to John Dawson and magically get two more years of eligibility?
Uhhh, I believe it's John "Magic" Dawson, FYI.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 30, 2013, 03:50:15 AM
What more does Derrick need to do to prove to you that he is a halfway decent PG? He's been great the last three games.
Derrick was very good in the ASU game. Beyond that, I'd say he's been okay the last couple of games. Derrick is not an attacking point guard - his assists are virtually forgetful - how many can you recall where he truly creates a great look for his teammate based off of something he does in transition or breaking a defender down of the dribbler? So yesterday he scored 11 points, 8 of them on layups at the basket.
This MU team can be good with him running the point, simply by the sheer talent around him - but, it won't be great, nor reach its ceiling with him running the point 32 minutes a game.
The guy averages 5ppg, 4assists, 4 rebounds in playing 30 minutes per game. So he basically assists 1 FG every 7:30 of play...
Sorry, I just don't have a hard on for the guy like some here do - he's a backup caliber point guard at a high major program. He won't hurt you, but he isn't going to help you win any games either.
So now it's a bad thing that Derrick is scoring layups? I thought the biggest criticism was that he didn't drive to the hole? I guess whatever verbal gymnastics are necessary to fit the narrative ;D ::)
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 30, 2013, 09:57:36 AM
So now it's a bad thing that Derrick is scoring layups? I thought the biggest criticism was that he didn't drive to the hole? I guess whatever verbal gymnastics are necessary to fit the narrative ;D ::)
Well a 5th grader could make the layups Derrick made yesterday....and of the 4 he made, only 1 did he go all the way to the basket on - the other 3 were off of cuts at the basket and others assisting him.
Listen Brew - just go watch any of the Top 15 teams in the country and watch their point guard - if you don't feel Derrick is far and away the least dynamic and creative of the bunch...don't know what to tell you.
Junior Cadougan was a hell of a lot better PG than Derrick - as I recall Junior creating many great looks in transition and the half court, as well as being able to turn the corner off of a pick and either get all the way to the basket, or pull up and hit the mid range jumper with a 50% conversion rate.
Where are our transition/fast break points this year? Have we ever looked worse in transition? Can you recall even 5 assists of Derrick's this year where he broke someone down off the dribble and created a nice look for a teammate?
Quote from: Ners on November 30, 2013, 09:54:16 AM
Derrick was very good in the ASU game. Beyond that, I'd say he's been okay the last couple of games. Derrick is not an attacking point guard - his assists are virtually forgetful - how many can you recall where he truly creates a great look for his teammate based off of something he does in transition or breaking a defender down of the dribbler? So yesterday he scored 11 points, 8 of them on layups at the basket.
Precious.
We all know where Ners stands on this issue. Can the mods somehow highlight threads where the 'Derrick sucks' mantra dominates the discussion in purple or something? I'd really prefer not to have to put Ners on Ignore. ::)
Quote from: Ners on November 30, 2013, 10:04:26 AM
Well a 5th grader could make the layups Derrick made yesterday....and of the 4 he made, only 1 did he go all the way to the basket on - the other 3 were off of cuts at the basket and others assisting him.
Listen Brew - just go watch any of the Top 15 teams in the country and watch their point guard - if you don't feel Derrick is far and away the least dynamic and creative of the bunch...don't know what to tell you.
Junior Cadougan was a hell of a lot better PG than Derrick - as I recall Junior creating many great looks in transition and the half court, as well as being able to turn the corner off of a pick and either get all the way to the basket, or pull up and hit the mid range jumper with a 50% conversion rate.
Where are our transition/fast break points this year? Have we ever looked worse in transition? Can you recall even 5 assists of Derrick's this year where he broke someone down off the dribble and created a nice look for a teammate?
This is just utter nonsense.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on November 30, 2013, 10:18:22 AM
This is just utter nonsense.
Please go ahead and rebut what I've written with evidence to the contrary...
You think we look good in transition this year?
You think Derrick is better than Junior Cadougan - who was a player widely maligned by many MU fans?
Can most 5th graders who play basketball, not make a right handed layup at the basket?
I was wrong about Vander getting drafted. I was wrong about Jake being able to hit threes at this level. I was wrong about how much JJJ will be able to contribute this year. Just a few examples of the many times I've been wrong. Admitting you are wrong is very easy and somewhat cathartic because it reminds us we are human.
Some people simply don't have the ability to admit when they are wrong. And when you refuse to admit you are wrong, it usually results in becoming more and more wrong as you try to defend a blatantly fallacious argument. From the outside, though, it is fun to watch, because the bizarre defense of the false argument simply looks more and more ridiculous as time goes on.
Quote from: Ners on November 30, 2013, 10:04:26 AM
Listen Brew - just go watch any of the Top 15 teams in the country and watch their point guard - if you don't feel Derrick is far and away the least dynamic and creative of the bunch...don't know what to tell you.
I don't think anyone here is saying that Derrick is a great dynamic point guard. I think the debate is who is MU's best point guard and I think Derrick is better than Dawson right now and probably will be better than Dawson at the end of the year. Without a doubt, Dawson has a higher ceiling and I expect a great career but he is not ready to start and play 25 plus minutes at the point.
And as far as recalling assists go, I can't recall any of Dawson's assists either.
Derrick actually slowed down the transition game yesterday and was a perimeter passing PG.
We need more assists from that position.
Quote from: Ners on November 30, 2013, 11:34:54 AM
Please go ahead and rebut what I've written with evidence to the contrary...
You think we look good in transition this year?
You think Derrick is better than Junior Cadougan - who was a player widely maligned by many MU fans?
Can most 5th graders who play basketball, not make a right handed layup at the basket?
Do we look good in transition? We are not a team built for transition. That's not Derrick's fault.
Do I think Derrick is better than Junior? I don't know or care. Junior got very little credit over his career. I ABSOLUTELY think Derrick is better than John Dawson, which is really all that matters and is your entire idiotic argument. Try to stay on subject.
Can 5th graders make a right handed layup? Really??? So now that he's scoring you have to try to denigrate how he is doing it? Stupid.
Quote from: mufanatic on November 30, 2013, 11:46:08 AM
I don't think anyone here is saying that Derrick is a great dynamic point guard. I think the debate is who is MU's best point guard and I think Derrick is better than Dawson right now and probably will be better than Dawson at the end of the year. Without a doubt, Dawson has a higher ceiling and I expect a great career but he is not ready to start and play 25 plus minutes at the point.
And as far as recalling assists go, I can't recall any of Dawson's assists either.
Bingo.
Let's stay on topic.
The debate isn't Derrick vs the rest of the nation.
The "debate" is Derrick vs Dawson.
Derrick is currently leading the team in minutes (by a pretty good margin). Dawson is last, with 2 DNPs. I think that tells you where Buzz stands on the "debate".
If/when Dawson is able to contribute, he'll get minutes. I don't think this is that complicated.
Dawson is the one scholarship player who has played this year who hasn't scored in double digits. Derrick went for 11 and 4 yesterday. When you simply look at Derricks numbers in a vacuum, assist to turnover ratio, rebounds, you wonder why anyone complains. I predict he will be the only PG to play 38 minutes against the Buckeyes without a turnover. He isn't a dynamic scorer. But I am beginning to understand why Buzz said that he deserved to start last year and why Buzz is going out of his way to say how much he is coming to trust Derrick.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on November 30, 2013, 12:01:44 PM
Do we look good in transition? We are not a team built for transition. That's not Derrick's fault.
Do I think Derrick is better than Junior? I don't know or care. Junior got very little credit over his career. I ABSOLUTELY think Derrick is better than John Dawson, which is really all that matters and is your entire idiotic argument. Try to stay on subject.
Can 5th graders make a right handed layup? Really??? So now that he's scoring you have to try to denigrate how he is doing it? Stupid.
Nice avoidance of the questions - so now we aren't a team built for transition? Mayo, Jamil, JJJ, Deonte, Juan, Steve T - none of those guys would thrive in transition? We were a much better transition team last year - same roster, minus Van - why such a drop off this year? Do you genuinely believe coaches don't want to score points in transition? Buzz has even said this year everything was moving too slow through the first 4 games...
Derrick puts ZERO pressure on a defense okay? That's my whole point - and from what I've seen of Dawson - forces the action and has shown a great drive and dish game in his VERY limited minutes. Give Dawson 32 minutes a game, and a can guarantee you his production would exceed Derrick's amazing 5.0ppg and 4 assists per game. Dawson has also shown to be a good defender in his time in the games - and hasn't fouled guys taking 3's as Derrick has bone headedly done twice this year.
This team can makes the Sweet 16 in spite of Derrick - with all of the talent surrounding him. Derrick simply does not make the guys around him better...and if you want a great season...you need to groom a PG who has the ability to make guys better - and Dawson has shown that ability in his limited time on the floor.
Quote from: Ners on November 30, 2013, 01:12:26 PM
Nice avoidance of the questions - so now we aren't a team built for transition? Mayo, Jamil, JJJ, Deonte, Juan, Steve T - none of those guys would thrive in transition? We were a much better transition team last year - same roster, minus Van - why such a drop off this year? Do you genuinely believe coaches don't want to score points in transition? Buzz has even said this year everything was moving too slow through the first 4 games...
Derrick puts ZERO pressure on a defense okay? That's my whole point - and from what I've seen of Dawson - forces the action and has shown a great drive and dish game in his VERY limited minutes. Give Dawson 32 minutes a game, and a can guarantee you his production would exceed Derrick's amazing 5.0ppg and 4 assists per game. Dawson has also shown to be a good defender in his time in the games - and hasn't fouled guys taking 3's as Derrick has bone headedly done twice this year.
This team can makes the Sweet 16 in spite of Derrick - with all of the talent surrounding him. Derrick simply does not make the guys around him better...and if you want a great season...you need to groom a PG who has the ability to make guys better - and Dawson has shown that ability in his limited time on the floor.
How has he done
this? Against someone other than Grambling please?
Quote from: Ners on November 30, 2013, 10:04:26 AM
Well a 5th grader could make the layups Derrick made yesterday....and of the 4 he made, only 1 did he go all the way to the basket on - the other 3 were off of cuts at the basket and others assisting him.
Listen Brew - just go watch any of the Top 15 teams in the country and watch their point guard - if you don't feel Derrick is far and away the least dynamic and creative of the bunch...don't know what to tell you.
Junior Cadougan was a hell of a lot better PG than Derrick - as I recall Junior creating many great looks in transition and the half court, as well as being able to turn the corner off of a pick and either get all the way to the basket, or pull up and hit the mid range jumper with a 50% conversion rate.
Where are our transition/fast break points this year? Have we ever looked worse in transition? Can you recall even 5 assists of Derrick's this year where he broke someone down off the dribble and created a nice look for a teammate?
Hmm. I know you won't understand this post because it's slightly above your 5th grade layup line knowledge of the game of basketball, but here it goes anyways...
Junior Cadougan's
senior year (and 3rd year starting): 8.5 ppg, 3.8 apg, 2.9 rpg, 1 spg, 2.5 TO/g
Derrick Wilson's junior year (and 1st year starting): 5 ppg, 4.6 apg, 4 rpg, 0.6 spg, 1.3 TO/g
I think (well, hope) we can all agree that assists would account for
at least 2 points/assist, so we'll put an assist worth 2 ppg (the minimum) for Junior's case since Derrick is averaging more than Junior was. I think (again, hope) we can all agree that a turnover is a lost possession. Typically each possession is a little bit over 1 point/possession on average, so again for Junior's case we will place it at the minimum and say a turnover is worth negative 1 point per turnover. Conversely, we will put each steal at +1 point per game, since that would be creating an extra possession for our offense. So if you're still following me here (I have my doubts) we could add up the math and come up with this:
Junior Cadougan, in his 3rd year starting and his senior year of college, contributed to 14.6 ppg (8.5 points + 7.6 points for his assists + 1 for his steals - 2.5 for his turnovers).
So far this year, in his first year starting and junior year of college, Derrick Wilson has contributed to 13.5 ppg (5 points + 9.2 for his assists +0.6 for his steals - 1.3 for his turnovers).
That alone is a fairly slim margin. Definitely a very slim margin for someone who is a "hell of a lot better than" the other player.
Now add to that the 1.1 more rebounds Derrick gets per game and that could also be considered another 1.1 points considering that is another possession we are getting due to Derrick and all of a sudden Derrick is contributing the exact same amount of points per game as our 3rd year senior starter last year. Not to mention Derrick plays much better defense, which could (generously to Junior's case) be considered 1 point per game more that Derrick prevents the other team from scoring.
On top of that all, since the New Hampshire game we have seen a much better Derrick playing, and I consider that to be more the norm for what we will see throughout the season. Since that game, we have seen Derrick with averages of 10.3 ppg, 5.3 apg, 3.3 rpg, 0.67 spg, and 1 TO/g (and you say that only 1 of the 3 previous games was a good game by Wilson, hah...those numbers are
outstanding for a point guard). That would equate to Derrick contributing over 20 ppg. Yup, the guy's awful.
Not to mention, was there ever any doubt that teams like Louisville and Florida, who pressed and created chaos defensively, were going to turn Cadougan over 7-10 times a game and absolutely smoke us? I do not even come close to worrying about that with Derrick Wilson in the game. We actually have a chance to beat teams like that with Derrick in the game.
Kudos to PTM. This is on pace to be the greatest Scoop thread ever.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on November 30, 2013, 01:35:52 PM
How has he done this? Against someone other than Grambling please?
He just did it yesterday against GW....shot clock winding down, Dawson was on right wing, made a quick drive into lane, drew Devante's defender - zipped a perfect no look pass to DG for what would have been an easy lay in...but DG put ball gingerly allowed a 3rd help defender to get a finger on it, blocked right back to DG for an easy lay in...
Yes, just 1 example....but it illustrates the ability.....and it was on display a number of times against Grambling as well.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 30, 2013, 02:29:23 PM
Kudos to PTM. This is on pace to be the greatest Scoop thread ever.
I agree = PTM finally made an intelligent post for once - hopefully you can join him this season.
And the irony about this thread title - Derrick Wilson still hasn't made 1 damn 3 point shot in 7 games and 208 minutes of play. I'm not sure you could find one other Point Guard in the country that's played 208 minutes and hasn't hit 1 3 point shot.And outside of Ohio State and ASU, we haven't played a good team....and have played some awful ones. Sorry I can't get excited about a guy shooting 40% from the Field and 55% from the Free Throw line putting up 5ppg and 4.5 assists per game in 30 minutes of PT.
Quote from: Ners on November 30, 2013, 02:32:06 PM
He just did it yesterday against GW....shot clock winding down, Dawson was on right wing, made a quick drive into lane, drew Devante's defender - zipped a perfect no look pass to DG for what would have been an easy lay in...but DG put ball gingerly allowed a 3rd help defender to get a finger on it, blocked right back to DG for an easy lay in...
Yes, just 1 example....but it illustrates the ability.....and it was on display a number of times against Grambling as well.
You do realize that Derrick Wilson does the exact same thing, right? And that he does it on average 5 times per game, where the guy actually makes the basket? Right??
Quote from: Ners on November 30, 2013, 02:40:07 PM
I agree = PTM finally made an intelligent post for once - hopefully you can join him this season. And the irony about this thread title - Derrick Wilson still hasn't made 1 damn 3 point shot in 7 games and 208 minutes of play. I'm not sure you could find one other Point Guard in the country that's played 208 minutes and hasn't hit 1 3 point shot.
And outside of Ohio State and ASU, we haven't played a good team....and have played some awful ones. Sorry I can't get excited about a guy shooting 40% from the Field and 55% from the Free Throw line putting up 5ppg and 4.5 assists per game in 30 minutes of PT.
It's okay to admit you're wrong sometimes. You are brutally wrong about this one. Horribly wrong. It is what it is. No shame in admitting it. Everyone on this site with half a brain can tell you are wrong and they are all telling you that you are wrong. Repeatedly.
Quit being such a child and just accept that thus far you are wrong. Your entire defense of this argument is based on 1-2 plays and the Grambling game. It's really just getting sad. Just save yourself the continued embarrassment and admit you were wrong.
Above, I admitted a few things I've been wrong about. I'm sure there have been many more. It's okay for you to do the same for one time in your life. You're wrong. Everyone knows it. The sooner you accept it, the easier it will be for this entire site to get along.
Or just keep making an ass of yourself and giving us reason to chuckle and shake our heads. Your choice.
Once upon a time, there was a guy called Murf. Murf swore up and down that Travis Diener was a 'dime-a-dozen' point guard and that Dwight Burke had phenomenal post-up ability that was simply underutilized. This is in that category of wrong.
Quote from: tower912 on November 30, 2013, 03:34:31 PM
Once upon a time, there was a guy called Murf. Murf swore up and down that Travis Diener was a 'dime-a-dozen' point guard and that Dwight Burke had phenomenal post-up ability that was simply underutilized. This is in that category of wrong.
Ahh, Murf and Diener, I remember it well. He's not strong enough to get his shot off in the Big Ten, I hear.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on November 30, 2013, 02:40:53 PM
You do realize that Derrick Wilson does the exact same thing, right? And that he does it on average 5 times per game, where the guy actually makes the basket? Right??
I'm not trying to be a dick about this...seriously....but no..I really don't remember maybe more than 1 or 2 assists of Derrick's this year, where he forced the action with an aggressive drive...collapsed the defense and created a wide open look for his teammate. The majority of Derrick's assists are through rapid perimeter ball swings where the ball has been passed 3-5 times rapidly around perimeter which is what is creating the space - or a guy just hits a tough contested jumper and received the pass for Derrick. No, not all assists are created equally.
Quote from: Ners on November 30, 2013, 07:59:41 PM
I'm not trying to be a dick about this...seriously....but no..I really don't remember maybe more than 1 or 2 assists of Derrick's this year, where he forced the action with an aggressive drive...collapsed the defense and created a wide open look for his teammate. The majority of Derrick's assists are through rapid perimeter ball swings where the ball has been passed 3-5 times rapidly around perimeter which is what is creating the space - or a guy just hits a tough contested jumper and received the pass for Derrick. No, not all assists are created equally.
Oh, I must have missed the rule change that gives more points for baskets scored as a result of an assist made in a no-look fashion following dribble penetration versus a regular old pass. How many more points are those baskets worth now?
You seriously need to pay more attention during the games ;)
There is absolutely no debate on who is better between Derrick and Dawson because there is only one vote that counts.
And that vote has been cast by the guy who has seen both in practice and in games and on film for hours and hours and hours and hours and hours.
I agree with the basic premise that we need better PG play to be a Final Four team. I don't think Derrick is an above-average PG on this level. Nevertheless, it's impossible for me -- or any other fan -- to conclude that there is a better PG on this current roster at this current time than Derrick because we don't have the body of evidence to do so.
The only person who has seen anything close to the requisite body of evidence has concluded that Derrick not only should be this team's PG but should be playing the position for well over 30 minutes per game.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 30, 2013, 11:42:29 AM
Admitting you are wrong is very easy and somewhat cathartic because it reminds us we are human.
I am jealous. I have always wanted to be reminded I am just human. If only to be wrong once so that I could admit it later and enjoy the realities of my mortality.
By the way, what are we discussing in this thread, because I am about to lay down the definitive "I am right" smack down opinionated fact related to said topic.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 30, 2013, 03:21:11 PM
It's okay to admit you're wrong. You are brutally wrong. Horribly wrong. No shame in admitting it. Everyone on this site can tell you are wrong and they are all telling you that you are wrong. Quit being such a child and just accept that thus far you are wrong. Just save yourself the continued embarrassment and admit you were wrong.
Above, I admitted a few things I've been wrong about. It's okay for you to do the same for one time in your life. You're wrong.
Augustine and John were a bit more eloquent:
"God created us without us: but he did not will to save us without us."
"To receive his mercy, we must admit our faults. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."