We were a 6.5 point underdog on the road against a probable tourney team, started with a brutal first half, had our (arguably) most effective player of the season to date in street clothes and had multiple chances to win this game in the last 3 minutes. Losing sux and hurts, but, for the first time this year I saw an MU team in the second half that looked like a Buzz MU team. We should have found a way to win that game in the second half...it was right there for us and we failed. There is no consolation prize, but, I saw some positive signs that could bode well for us going forward:
1. Derrick played probably his best game for MU. He has played great defensive games before (see at the Kohl Center when Junior was benched) but he looked much better than his previous 4 games. The defense still sags so purposely because they all know he can not hit an outside shot, but, if others can deliver that threat...it will make his game more effective. If he could just hit from 20 feet, he could be a really serviceable (not star) pg.
2. JJJ really showed his promise tonight...which makes me question why he is not playing more. He has a great instinct for the game, is athletic and is not afraid to take the outside shot or take it to the hole. I loved watching him play with confidence. His minutes have to continue to increase...right?
3. We finally got the "lid on the basket mindf#ck" game out of our head and started hitting some 3s. Granted, shot selection in the last couple of minutes was really questionable, but, we finally started hitting from the outside a bit and that was contagious for awhile. Not sure where our defense went, but, putting up those points was nice to see after the last few games.
4. Jake Thomas showed that if he just catches and fires, he can be a spot 3 point shooting threat...valuable, but nothing more than that. He should not be driving, trying to create shots, etc....there is a role for him and he showed what it can be....limited but effective.
5. The big sheesh looked great tonight...his game looked different and perhaps his head and heart were all lined up for a big night. Some lapses on defense but when he is active (on offense...on the boards, etc.) he can be really good.
6. Burton looks like he can be a beast some day and at the very least deserves more minutes now....I love his game....love love love it...reminds me a little of David Boone but with more versatility and upside in his game (that is a throwback). Seriously, his body is big east ready and his hustle, basketball IQ and effectiveness need to garner more time on the floor.
7. The question was called after getting down big and not playing well this year and the team responded. Showed great heart and put together a great second half when they could have folded. I was proud of the effort, disappointed in the result, but hopeful this is a springboard for this team to come together and kick some arse in the big east. A win in the kohl hole would make me forget about this first month rather quickly. After tonight, I think we can be competitive...in the first half, I was worried we would get blown out of Madison in an embarrasing manner...more hopeful tonight. If we have Mayo tonight, I think we win this game, frankly.
The concerns:
Juan has regressed...again. Jamil is so inconsistent...he looked great at times and really faultered in the last few minutes. His effort was there tonight though. Chris Otule did not have a good game tonight....so many bunnies missed, ouch. Their big dominated at times which was not all on CO, but it is concerning. Shot selection at the most crucial times was questionable...defense at times was even worse. How bad must Steve Taylor Junior be in pratice to not see the floor for any significant minutes? Something to keep an eye on as he sure looked to be on the rise this year.
Let's hope this game got us back to a typical Buzz team and we finish out this road trip with some great moments...then put it all on the line in Madison and go from there.
Followed the in game thread but did not comment...drink of choice to get through the game was lagavulin single malt...and it is delicious win or lose.
Also, as my undergrad degree and love is with MU...and my graduate degree is with ASU....I never found an affinity with the sun devil sports programs...but I do miss the "scenery" :)
Throw in Otule throwing an elbow like a champ to a defender's jaw and getting away with it. Color me surprised that one was not called, even upon review. Toss in the extra-rare double technical fouls on ASU (one on the fans), and I thought we would steal one.
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on November 25, 2013, 10:56:13 PM
Throw in Otule throwing an elbow like a champ to a defender's jaw and getting away with it. Color me surprised that one was not called, even upon review. Toss in the extra-rare double technical fouls on ASU (one on the fans), and I thought we would steal one.
I was 100% sure that was a flagrant foul.
On Jake Thomas...people are really selling him short. He showed today if you run plays for him he will score.
If you pay attention to him for the whole game you'll realize that he is probably our best all around defender. D. Wilson is a better on ball defender, but Thomas understands how to defend off the ball a lot better.
He also directs people on D quite well.
Don't forget that he also had 5 assists and 2 steals. He is a solid all around player...his weakness is not being able to take it to the hole, but he knows this and doesn't do it often.
This is one game, but I think this is what we can expect if we get him involved and run plays for him.
Even though it was a loss I think it was the best game of the year for MU. Jake and Derrick played well.
The thread title says it all....
.......but still lots of good points made in support.
Thanks Murobrob.
/regarding the flagrant foul call, I think that Bachynski seemed to be ducking under Otule's arm when he was hit. I still expected that the refs would call it though. The fact that Chris wasn't pissed, but was composed and concentrating on the rebound at the time of the incident clearly helped.
First twelve minutes, ASU scored 33 points. Treys killed MU. Last eight minutes, ASU scored only five points, though. MU needed to guard the perimeter early.
Four turnovers by MU, only one in the 2nd half. Derrick with 7 assists, 0 turnovers. MU assisted on 64% of their shots made. MU out rebounds ASU 39-32, 17-6 on the offensive end. MU shoots and makes more free throws.
In the end, both teams played to their strengths, but ASU's perimeter offense and the blocks won it. Would love a rematch at the Wooden.
I wouldn't mind another crack at these guys Sunday. Tough team, might be able to snag the W on a neutral court. Honestly, if we played again it wouldn't shock me if we handled them comfortably.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 25, 2013, 11:26:46 PM
I wouldn't mind another crack at these guys Sunday. Tough team, might be able to snag the W on a neutral court. Honestly, if we played again it wouldn't shock me if we handled them comfortably.
Agreed. Especially assuming they probably don't shoot quite as well as they did tonight. Well over their average on both FG% and 3pt%. They had a few stretches there where they just hit everything they shot--a few go the other way, and its a different game.
Oh well. All told, I feel much better tonight about this team.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on November 25, 2013, 10:56:42 PM
I was 100% sure that was a flagrant foul.
I thought the other guys elbow was under Otule's arm and into his neck. When. Chris tried to push him away hid arm got lifted by the other guy and Chis'd elbow went into his face.
A point guard penetrating and creating. A 3-point shooter hitting 3-pointers. An all-conference center putting up a double-double. A highly touted freshman having an impact.
You know, for some very nice stretches out there, we seemed like an actual, real, live, high-major college basketball team!
It was about as encouraging as a loss can be.
A lot of individual performances have been pointed up, but let's give it up for the team performance.
A season best 77 points on 40% shooting (35% from 3)
Outrebounded a team with a 7 footer 39 to 32
Had more assists (18) than a team with Jahii Carson (16)
Only 4 TOs!!!! (That has to be closest to the lowest in a game under Buzz)
Kept it close despite ASU shooting 54% from the floor and 46% from 3. And did it without help from the refs (least amount of fouls drawn this season I believe)
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 25, 2013, 11:26:46 PM
I wouldn't mind another crack at these guys Sunday. Tough team, might be able to snag the W on a neutral court. Honestly, if we played again it wouldn't shock me if we handled them comfortably.
^ This. Bring these guys on again. There is no way in hell ASU shoots the three again like they did last night. Jake found his shot. Derrick found his confidence.
We lost the game when Jamili got his fourth foul. He was hot as hell at that point. When he came back off the bench, his mojo was gone.
derrick had a good game offensively, but he is not the lock down defender that many think he is.
Losses suck, but........ the offense looked better, the inbounds plays looked better, the freshmen played hard and contributed, Jake looked like he belonged, DeWilson looked like he belonged, Gardner looked engaged...... when MU was down 15 in the first, I feared they were going to fold. They didn't. They played a heckuva game and had two shots at the end to either win it or send it to OT. They didn't fall. Few envisioned that at the under 12 media timeout in the first half.
Quote from: willie warrior on November 26, 2013, 06:24:41 AM
derrick had a good game offensively, but he is not the lock down defender that many think he is.
To be fair, he was guarding one of the two or three best point guards in the country.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 26, 2013, 06:52:16 AM
To be fair, he was guarding one of the two or three best point guards in the country.
Who was in foul trouble most of the game. Not a knock on Wilson, but MU made their come back in the late 1st half with 2 ASU starters on the bench with foul trouble and then again in the mid-2nd half when Carson was on the bench again with foul trouble.
Proved they can hang with them at the end of the game with the starters in, but still...
Quote from: mu03eng on November 26, 2013, 07:28:21 AM
Who was in foul trouble most of the game. Not a knock on Wilson, but MU made their come back in the late 1st half with 2 ASU starters on the bench with foul trouble and then again in the mid-2nd half when Carson was on the bench again with foul trouble.
Proved they can hang with them at the end of the game with the starters in, but still...
Who drew the three fouls on Carson?? Isn't that exactly what Wilson is supposed to do?
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on November 26, 2013, 07:52:34 AM
Who drew the three fouls on Carson?? Isn't that exactly what Wilson is supposed to do?
Yes he is, but the point is MU wasn't going up against ASU's number one line. It worked out, but I also think we got some help from the officials on a couple of those calls.....which is why I'm not burning down half the city on that non-goal tending call. Wilson was good, but ASU's suspect defense was even worse without Carson because of foul trouble. You play the team in front of you, but we should temper the take aways from the game with a little reality of who the points came against.
Quote from: mu03eng on November 26, 2013, 08:11:52 AM
Yes he is, but the point is MU wasn't going up against ASU's number one line. It worked out, but I also think we got some help from the officials on a couple of those calls.....which is why I'm not burning down half the city on that non-goal tending call. Wilson was good, but ASU's suspect defense was even worse without Carson because of foul trouble. You play the team in front of you, but we should temper the take aways from the game with a little reality of who the points came against.
Come on now, eng, you've been around long enough to know we NEVER temper anything on this board with something as silly as reality ::) ;D
Quote from: mu03eng on November 26, 2013, 08:11:52 AM
Yes he is, but the point is MU wasn't going up against ASU's number one line. It worked out, but I also think we got some help from the officials on a couple of those calls.....which is why I'm not burning down half the city on that non-goal tending call. Wilson was good, but ASU's suspect defense was even worse without Carson because of foul trouble. You play the team in front of you, but we should temper the take aways from the game with a little reality of who the points came against.
Yes, and we were without our leading scorer for the entire game.
A few thoughts:
1. This team finally had the identity of a Buzz MU team. Toughness, hustle...I think they have turned the corner.
2. JJJ looked great. His problem is that he made some late switches on defense. It'll take time but I think he's playing big minutes by BE time.
3. Burton struggled on the defensive end. Juan OTOH played very well defensively and grabbed a few boards.
4. I hope Taylor is hurt because he was awful. Frankly our interior defense all around was the worst part of that game.
5. Derrick attacking is going to look ugly sometimes, but I love to see it.
6. I have not exactly been a Jake Thomas supporter since I have been here. I hope he is proving me wrong.
Quote from: mu03eng on November 26, 2013, 08:11:52 AM
Yes he is, but the point is MU wasn't going up against ASU's number one line. It worked out, but I also think we got some help from the officials on a couple of those calls.....which is why I'm not burning down half the city on that non-goal tending call. Wilson was good, but ASU's suspect defense was even worse without Carson because of foul trouble. You play the team in front of you, but we should temper the take aways from the game with a little reality of who the points came against.
Why are you trying to turn a positive into a negative?
Wilson was good/assertive/smart enough to drive past Carson and draw those fouls. He's creating the opportunity to play against the next guy on the bench, and responsible for ASU's best player (by a mile) being a spectator for a good portion of the game.
You want to turn that into a negative and say well, we weren't playing against their top guy so not sure what we can take away from the game, or but those foul calls were bogus. I'd rather say job well done Mr. Wilson, thanks for doing your part to get their top player off the floor and giving us the best chance to win the game.
I just don't get the constant negativity and looking to tear everything down. And this is not just directed at you...so please don't take it that way.
Quote from: willie warrior on November 26, 2013, 06:24:41 AM
derrick had a good game offensively, but he is not the lock down defender that many think he is.
I have to agree with Willie. Since Derrick's offensive game has been completely nonexistent during his time at MU (hopefully the ASU game is a step in the right direction), I've been trying to justify (in my mind) what he brings to the table.
Physical, on the ball defense has been his calling card since day one. But this year I've noticed that he's not as aggressive on the defensive side of the ball. Maybe this could possibly be attributed to him playing a significant bulk of the point guard minutes, and he's trying not to exert as much energy.
In addition, his off the ball defense needs to be turned up a notch or two. Derrick often sags off his man too much, leaving his man with plenty of space to shoot/create on ball reversals.
Derrick isn't a lock down defender...especially when he is playing against quicker guards. But he is rarely out of place in the scheme of the defense. His defense is the least of this team's worries.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 26, 2013, 08:27:13 AM
2. JJJ looked great. His problem is that he made some late switches on defense. It'll take time but I think he's playing big minutes by BE time.
True, but he had our fourth most minutes last night. Mayo being out obviously has a lot to do with this. But the 3 he hit was big and the steal and dunk was huge on a night when we couldn't get anything going in transition.
The Carson vs. JWil foul situation was critical. Carson picked up his 3rd with roughly 16 minutes to go in the game. DeWil was consistently penetrating on him and forcing contact. ASU switched Carson off the defensive point and Jake just is not the type of player to be able to force contact. None of us really want him driving. Evidence of this can be found in the shot he was forced to take with 22 seconds. On offense, Jake is at most a catch and shoot (no fake in there) 3 guy. So bottom line, Carson never picks up his 4th and remains a Warrior killer on the offensive end stirring their pot and their 54% FG percentage. Obviously a healthy Mayo could have impacted things by forcing Carson to guard a penetrating guard.
In contrast, JWil picks up his 4th with something like 12 minutes left on an absolutely senseless foul and was never the same after that. 5-15 just isn't going to cut it on the offensive end. Frankly our offense bogged down somewhat when he returned and missed a few.
Limited but effective is the key for Jake... take the open shots, run a few screen plays for him to get open, that's about it though. Don't need him dribbling or trying to make game winning shots off the dribble either. He played a great game as the role player that he is.
Quote from: frozena pizza on November 26, 2013, 08:34:22 AM
True, but he had our fourth most minutes last night. Mayo being out obviously has a lot to do with this. But the 3 he hit was big and the steal and dunk was huge on a night when we couldn't get anything going in transition.
Don't get me wrong...his value on the board and on the offensive end COMPLETELY outweighed his defensive issues last night.
Quote from: frozena pizza on November 26, 2013, 08:22:32 AM
Yes, and we were without our leading scorer for the entire game.
This is true, but is he our leading scorer because he is our best scorer or because everyone else sucked to date this season? Don't get me wrong Mayo definitely has a role on this team, but he is very hot and cold. He literally could have been the difference last night....in a 10 point win or a 20 point loss with limited in between IMHO.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on November 26, 2013, 08:27:25 AM
Why are you trying to turn a positive into a negative?
Wilson was good/assertive/smart enough to drive past Carson and draw those fouls. He's creating the opportunity to play against the next guy on the bench, and responsible for ASU's best player (by a mile) being a spectator for a good portion of the game.
You want to turn that into a negative and say well, we weren't playing against their top guy so not sure what we can take away from the game, or but those foul calls were bogus. I'd rather say job well done Mr. Wilson, thanks for doing your part to get their top player off the floor and giving us the best chance to win the game.
I just don't get the constant negativity and looking to tear everything down. And this is not just directed at you...so please don't take it that way.
Hey, are we cheerleading or analyzing the game? ;D I get you aren't necessarily directing it at me, but I'm not trying to be negative with it....just like we can't say the OSU game represents how bad this offense is we can't say the ASU represents how good the offense is.
Similar take away for Thomas, yes he played much better on offense but he was 5-14 shooting 5-12 from 3pt range, not fire starting. So encouraging but let's not hang a banner for him.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 26, 2013, 08:16:16 AM
Come on now, eng, you've been around long enough to know we NEVER temper anything on this board with something as silly as reality ::) ;D
You're right, you probably shouldn't listen to tonight/tomorrow's podcast ;D
The play I loved the most was the JJJ steal and dunk. Had we gotten any points in transition at all during this season before then? Would love to see more of that aggression on defense
I too would like to see a few more steals and turning them into points. I wonder if the new rules are having an effect on how aggressive MU is playing on defense?
Quote from: raul on November 26, 2013, 10:04:35 PM
I too would like to see a few more steals and turning them into points. I wonder if the new rules are having an effect on how aggressive MU is playing on defense?
The defense has been fine. I think the reason we haven't seen many transition baskets is because the two biggest steal leaders from last year are gone. (Vander, Junior)
Quote from: jsglow on November 26, 2013, 08:35:11 AM
The Carson vs. JWil foul situation was critical. Carson picked up his 3rd with roughly 16 minutes to go in the game. DeWil was consistently penetrating on him and forcing contact. ASU switched Carson off the defensive point and Jake just is not the type of player to be able to force contact. None of us really want him driving. Evidence of this can be found in the shot he was forced to take with 22 seconds. On offense, Jake is at most a catch and shoot (no fake in there) 3 guy. So bottom line, Carson never picks up his 4th and remains a Warrior killer on the offensive end stirring their pot and their 54% FG percentage. Obviously a healthy Mayo could have impacted things by forcing Carson to guard a penetrating guard.
In contrast, JWil picks up his 4th with something like 12 minutes left on an absolutely senseless foul and was never the same after that. 5-15 just isn't going to cut it on the offensive end. Frankly our offense bogged down somewhat when he returned and missed a few.
But Carson was a warrior killer, even with his foul trouble.