UGLY.
JT taking a bad shot, and DW getting abandoned with two big guys in front of him.
That is on Buzz.
We can work with tonight's play and build something off of it. Though indeed, what Buzz calls the "special teams", the OOB and end of clock plays, have always been brutal despite the emphasis. Even most of our game winners in recent years have been something made after the original play broke down.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on November 25, 2013, 10:15:49 PM
UGLY.
JT taking a bad shot, and DW getting abandoned with two big guys in front of him.
That is on Buzz.
Co-sign. Terrible last two. Waiting for Buzz on Homer's show to say explain the patheticness of those last 40 seconds.
On the final play, they were running a play for Jake to come off a double screen from Otule and Gardner for a top-of-the-key 3 attempt. Derrick likely had the option to run that play or take it to the rim depending on the D. Jake was defended well and DW had a step so he made the proper read (IMO). However, I'd rather see Jamil with the ball in that situation (EDIT: I realize he had fouled out). Derrick was great tonight but he didn't have much of chance to get that shot over the 7-footer.
Worst two possessions were not the last two. Thomas and Johnson rushed two really bad, ugly shots that could have taken league with a few minutes left in the game (2:00 minutes left? 3:00?). Buzz's reaction on the sideline said it all.
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on November 25, 2013, 10:41:58 PM
Worst two possessions were not the last two. Thomas and Johnson rushed two really bad, ugly shots that could have taken league with a few minutes left in the game (2:00 minutes left? 3:00?). Buzz's reaction on the sideline said it all.
JJJ played well, but he did that twice today. Tried to rush it which turned into a 2 second possession.
Jamil also took a few shots on possessions down the stretch that could have given MU the lead.
All in all, a solid game once the team got their feet under them. Looking forward to the growth we all know is coming this season.
If they could have had one of those put backs fall w/ a little over a min left they win by 2 or 3. Much better than I ever expected honestly with how poorly they've played of late.
New team to hate ASU.
Jake's shot was not good, but I'm going to give Derrick more slack on the last shot for the following reasons.
1.) Jamil Wilson had just fouled out, leaving Jake Thomas as the only credible perimeter threat. As such, Thomas was in position quickly during a second free throw that very well could have gone in, and Thomas accordingly attracted ALL the ASU defense's attention. He was not going to sneak up on anybody.
2.) Davante Gardner is not running the length of the floor to score in 6 seconds without committing an offensive foul. He is not the answer there.
3.) Derrick Wilson had gotten underneath that 7'2" Goliath a couple times in the game. At the very least, maybe you can draw a foul and go to the line? As unlikely as a buzzer-beating foul call on the road is going to be, it's even less likely on a jump shot.
4.) Give ASU credit. They had pretty much everybody covered. The only open player was on the complete opposite side of the basket, out behind the three-point line (Jajuan? Deonte?) That would have been a hell of a pass through the land of the giants, would have eaten up a second of clock, and would have found the ball in the hands of a freshman with a low-percentage shot.
Quote from: muhoops1 on November 25, 2013, 10:45:11 PM
If they could have had one of those put backs fall w/ a little over a min left they win by 2 or 3. Much better than I ever expected honestly with how poorly they've played of late.
New team to hate ASU.
Naw. If anything, after tonight I like them. Jahii Carson is a badass.
I'd like to have the non goaltending block called about now
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 25, 2013, 10:56:40 PM
I'd like to have the non goaltending block called about now
+1000 that was a really bad non call.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 25, 2013, 10:56:40 PM
I'd like to have the non goaltending block called about now
I didn't think it was going to hit the rim. Looked way short on the replay too. Definitely was on the way down, but that call didn't bother me.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 25, 2013, 10:56:40 PM
I'd like to have the non goaltending block called about now
There was another missed when an ASU guy grabbed net while the ball was still on the rim, though we had one of those non-calls in the first half as well. Bachynski's was by far the most egregious.
Derrick needs to develop the Cordell Henry floater. If they are going to back off of him that far, he needs to be able to dribble as far as possible at the defender and pull up.
I didn't like the deep two by Thomas, because by definition I think deep twos are pointless. But he did have the open look and several bigs in postition to grab the rebound if it missed. That Canadian tree just wanted it more.
Quote from: MUDPT on November 25, 2013, 11:15:18 PM
Derrick needs to develop the Cordell Henry floater. If they are going to back off of him that far, he needs to be able to dribble as far as possible at the defender and pull up.
Whoa ... I'm just glad he made more than half his free throws and looked aggressive on offense. Baby steps.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 25, 2013, 11:58:40 PM
I didn't like the deep two by Thomas, because by definition I think deep twos are pointless. But he did have the open look and several bigs in postition to grab the rebound if it missed. That Canadian tree just wanted it more.
That kid will get an NBA paycheck...good hands and pretty quick off his feet...good shot blocking skills...may not see another big of his caliber this year.
Thought Jake got off a decent look, and he'd been hot in the 2nd half, so no qualms with him taking that shot.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 25, 2013, 11:58:40 PM
I didn't like the deep two by Thomas, because by definition I think deep twos are pointless. But he did have the open look and several bigs in postition to grab the rebound if it missed. That Canadian tree just wanted it more.
I agree completely. Don't like the idea of the long two, but the play was designed that way and he had an open look with under 10 to play.
Would have preferred to see us set up for Jamil on the wide post. Don't think we could go to Gardner as he struggled straight up in the post (most points out side the paint or feeds after big drawn away).
Anyone wonder why Herb didn't foul at the end? He had one to give. Also thought he waited way too long to call a time out on MU's run back in the 2nd.
Jake got a decent look, he just missed. DeWilson decided to be the man. I would have loved him to give the ball up, but with 7 seconds and no timeouts, sometimes you just get what you get.
Quote from: forgetful on November 26, 2013, 12:09:15 AM
I agree completely. Don't like the idea of the long two, but the play was designed that way and he had an open look with under 10 to play.
Would have preferred to see us set up for Jamil on the wide post. Don't think we could go to Gardner as he struggled straight up in the post (most points out side the paint or feeds after big drawn away).
You must have forgotten that Jamil had fouled out at that point.....
I thought Jake had a good look on his shot, though I think he shot it a little early. They could have moved the ball into the paint and then back out again. On the last play, DeWill should have gone to his left and found someone open to shoot. Even though he had a great game to that point, I wouldn't have been comfortable with him at the line to make both to tie had he been fouled on that play.
I thought they should have gone small with JJJ on the offensive end. But Buzz's set plays have always been a bit "interesting."
Quote from: Lighthouse 84 on November 26, 2013, 08:26:40 AM
You must have forgotten that Jamil had fouled out at that point.....
I thought Jake had a good look on his shot, though I think he shot it a little early. They could have moved the ball into the paint and then back out again. On the last play, DeWill should have gone to his left and found someone open to shoot. Even though he had a great game to that point, I wouldn't have been comfortable with him at the line to make both to tie had he been fouled on that play.
I was referencing the 2nd to last possession (sorry didn't make it clear)...the last possession to some extent is a crap shoot, you run a play and take what the defense gives you. For some reason I was thinking that Jamil fouled out on the rebound on that possession...sorry for my mistake. Don't love the shot over a 7'2" guy, but if that is the option, you take it.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on November 25, 2013, 10:51:42 PM
Naw. If anything, after tonight I like them. Jahii Carson is a badass.
I agree. Felt like I was watching Aaron Hutchins. Carson is better, but similar style and attitude.
Quote from: forgetful on November 26, 2013, 08:39:27 AM
I was referencing the 2nd to last possession (sorry didn't make it clear)...the last possession to some extent is a crap shoot, you run a play and take what the defense gives you. For some reason I was thinking that Jamil fouled out on the rebound on that possession...sorry for my mistake. Don't love the shot over a 7'2" guy, but if that is the option, you take it.
Sultan noted that Jajuan looked to be on the wrong side of the floor on that one. If he's on the near-side, Derrick could have kicked it back. Instead his only option was to go at Bachynski and either try the floater or try to pass it to Juan under the hoop. Either was going to have to get past that guy's 173" wingspan. I do like that DeWil's success driving earlier gave him the confidence to try that. Didn't work out, but last night could do worlds of good for him in the long run.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 25, 2013, 10:56:40 PM
I'd like to have the non goaltending block called about now
I'm almost positive we ended up with a three pointer on that possession.
I don't get why we settle for the jumpshot for Jake. Sure, he was hitting a groove... from beyond the arc. He had 5 threes and 16 points. Missed both his 2pt field goals. I feel like if you needed a 3, Jake gets the nod. But we needed 2... so let someone else who knows how to score 2 get the look.
nm
Quote from: StillAWarrior on November 26, 2013, 08:55:03 AM
I'm almost positive we ended up with a three pointer on that possession.
We might have, I don't recall
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 26, 2013, 08:51:22 AM
Sultan noted that Jajuan looked to be on the wrong side of the floor on that one. If he's on the near-side, Derrick could have kicked it back. Instead his only option was to go at Bachynski and either try the floater or try to pass it to Juan under the hoop. Either was going to have to get past that guy's 173" wingspan. I do like that DeWil's success driving earlier gave him the confidence to try that. Didn't work out, but last night could do worlds of good for him in the long run.
Final play at the 0:42 mark.
http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/video?gameId=400504475 (http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/video?gameId=400504475)
You can clearly see that Gardner and Juan were trying to set a double screen to free up Jake at the top of the key. Derrick, however, beat his man and had a clear path to the basket, especially if DG would have "rolled" and sealed off Bachynski. As it was, Bachynski didn't get sealed, Derrick saw him coming and tried to pull up a little earlier than he probably would have liked in an attempt to get the shot up. Ideally, he would have been able to take another dribble and get into the body of Bachynski much like he did at the 0:38 mark of the highlights.
Not a bad play design and I wonder if Buzz would have drawn it up for Jamil (as opposed to Derrick) had he not fouled out.
Quote from: MarsupialMadness on November 26, 2013, 09:00:35 AM
I don't get why we settle for the jumpshot for Jake. Sure, he was hitting a groove... from beyond the arc. He had 5 threes and 16 points. Missed both his 2pt field goals. I feel like if you needed a 3, Jake gets the nod. But we needed 2... so let someone else who knows how to score 2 get the look.
The guy shot 5-14. I'm not sure "hitting a groove" is accurate. It shows just how pathetic his production has been that people have pushed a narrative that somehow Thomas was ballin' last night when he hit 36%. Getting him a jumper, with 10 seconds left on the clock, was a curious choice.
When the shot clock is with you, down the last possession on the road, and you have supposedly one of the better frontcourts in the country you dump it down low and get a post score.
Quote from: Golden Avalanche on November 26, 2013, 09:39:10 AM
The guy shot 5-14. I'm not sure "hitting a groove" is accurate. It shows just how pathetic his production has been that people have pushed a narrative that somehow Thomas was ballin' last night when he hit 36%. Getting him a jumper, with 10 seconds left on the clock, was a curious choice.
When the shot clock is with you, down the last possession on the road, and you have supposedly one of the better frontcourts in the country you dump it down low and get a post score.
Thomas had hit 2 of his last 3 threes prior to the final 2 possessions and was 5-9 from 3 in the 2nd half. Otule and Gardner shot a combined 6-15 in the post last night so deciding to "dump it down low" was far from a given.
Quote from: chapman on November 25, 2013, 10:24:11 PM
We can work with tonight's play and build something off of it. Though indeed, what Buzz calls the "special teams", the OOB and end of clock plays, have always been brutal despite the emphasis. Even most of our game winners in recent years have been something made after the original play broke down.
You do know the other team is trying to stop us from having a great OOB play, right? Especially in the final seconds.
Quote from: chapman on November 25, 2013, 10:24:11 PM
We can work with tonight's play and build something off of it. Though indeed, what Buzz calls the "special teams", the OOB and end of clock plays, have always been brutal despite the emphasis. Even most of our game winners in recent years have been something made after the original play broke down.
The game winner by Vander Blue against St johns was one of the best designed end of game plays I have ever seen. There are others. The plays are always good when they work. No matter how good of a play you draw up you still need players to execute and have to beat the other team's defense.
I didn't like Jake's shot because I didn't think it was a real good open look as some have said. I've watched it several times. He had a defender right on his hip and Jake's body wasn't fully squared in a good shooting position. We had time and could have gotten something better.
The final shot was out of a scramble and Derrick was winging it. I was wishing he dumped it to Juan, but who knows if there would have been time for the pass, catch and shot. I like Derrick's aggressiveness at the very least.
Quote from: MU82 on November 26, 2013, 10:29:27 AM
I didn't like Jake's shot because I didn't think it was a real good open look as some have said. I've watched it several times. He had a defender right on his hip and Jake's body wasn't fully squared in a good shooting position. We had time and could have gotten something better.
The final shot was out of a scramble and Derrick was winging it. I was wishing he dumped it to Juan, but who knows if there would have been time for the pass, catch and shot. I like Derrick's aggressiveness at the very least.
I am also way less irritated by Derrick's last second attempt than by the poor shot Jake got off. The last shot was a scramble from the other baseline with in less that 6 seconds. He had to get something up. Jake's shot was taken with 10 seconds left on a possession that started with a full shot clock. There was plenty of time to set something up, and still enough time to get a better look.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 26, 2013, 09:44:52 AM
Thomas had hit 2 of his last 3 threes prior to the final 2 possessions and was 5-9 from 3 in the 2nd half. Otule and Gardner shot a combined 6-15 in the post last night so deciding to "dump it down low" was far from a given.
But Thomas didn't take a 3. And MU didn't set him up for a clean look from 3. They ran a short clock play with a long clock, gave it to Thomas on his weaker side and he took a 20 footer. Went against the grain of any momentum.
Gardner had the touch last night. Shot very well. Playing the two bigs together with a dump down allows for many more options (double and kick for open shot, double and kick for open drive, weak side rebound with Otule, etc.) when all you need is a two point bucket. There was no need to settle for the most worthless shot in basketball, especially with 10 seconds remaining.
Quote from: Bleuteaux on November 26, 2013, 10:31:38 AM
I am also way less irritated by Derrick's last second attempt than by the poor shot Jake got off. The last shot was a scramble from the other baseline with in less that 6 seconds. He had to get something up. Jake's shot was taken with 10 seconds left on a possession that started with a full shot clock. There was plenty of time to set something up, and still enough time to get a better look.
Actually, I was thrilled Jake got that shot off with 7 or 8 seconds left - as if he made it, we are up 1...possibly 2 if it was designed to be a 3 point shot. If he misses it, as he did and we foul immediately - we still had the 7 seconds to get off another shot.
I'd always rather go with getting 2 chances to win or tie it, versus only 1 - and if we waited on Jake's possession till the buzzer....we only get the one look and not another. Of course if we convert on the attempt at 7 seconds...we then have to defend and hold....but at least you either get the lead, or get a 2nd chance to tie the game by shooting a shot at the 8 second mark like we did last night, instead of bleeding it down to the 2 or 3 second mark in the hopes to get a better look.
Quote from: Golden Avalanche on November 26, 2013, 10:32:32 AM
But Thomas didn't take a 3. And MU didn't set him up for a clean look from 3. They ran a short clock play with a long clock, gave it to Thomas on his weaker side and he took a 20 footer. Went against the grain of any momentum.
Gardner had the touch last night. Shot very well. Playing the two bigs together with a dump down allows for many more options (double and kick for open shot, double and kick for open drive, weak side rebound with Otule, etc.) when all you need is a two point bucket. There was no need to settle for the most worthless shot in basketball, especially with 10 seconds remaining.
Were you opposed to the play that was run or the execution of it?
It wasn't a bad play call and I can confidently say that it wasn't run the way Buzz drew it up. In fact, you run a play like that with 10 seconds remaining because if you don't get the look you want (which MU didn't), you have time to go to the second and third option on the play. As it was, Jake took the shot anyway.
Quote from: Ners on November 26, 2013, 10:39:07 AM
Actually, I was thrilled Jake got that shot off with 7 or 8 seconds left - as if he made it, we are up 1...possibly 2 if it was designed to be a 3 point shot. If he misses it, as he did and we foul immediately - we still had the 7 seconds to get off another shot.
I'd always rather go with getting 2 chances to win or tie it, versus only 1 - and if we waited on Jake's possession till the buzzer....we only get the one look and not another. Of course if we convert on the attempt at 7 seconds...we then have to defend and hold....but at least you either get the lead, or get a 2nd chance to tie the game by shooting a shot at the 8 second mark like we did last night, instead of bleeding it down to the 2 or 3 second mark in the hopes to get a better look.
This. The timing of the shot was absolutely right. It gives you a chance for an offensive board or a foul if you miss.
Quote from: Ners on November 26, 2013, 10:39:07 AM
I'd always rather go with getting 2 chances to win or tie it, versus only 1 - and if we waited on Jake's possession till the buzzer....we only get the one look and not another. Of course if we convert on the attempt at 7 seconds...we then have to defend and hold....but at least you either get the lead, or get a 2nd chance to tie the game by shooting a shot at the 8 second mark like we did last night, instead of bleeding it down to the 2 or 3 second mark in the hopes to get a better look.
Generally speaking, I agree with you. But not when the first chance is such a bad shot. I'd rather have one good look.
Taking a shot with 10 seconds left is fine, preferable actually, if it is a good shot. That was not a good shot. At all.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 26, 2013, 10:59:06 AM
This. The timing of the shot was absolutely right. It gives you a chance for an offensive board or a foul if you miss.
Plus, Buzz knew there was a TV time out to come.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 26, 2013, 10:45:26 AM
Were you opposed to the play that was run or the execution of it?
It wasn't a bad play call and I can confidently say that it wasn't run the way Buzz drew it up. In fact, you run a play like that with 10 seconds remaining because if you don't get the look you want (which MU didn't), you have time to go to the second and third option on the play. As it was, Jake took the shot anyway.
I don't think any of us have differing opinions on the execution: shot missed, execution fail. Buzz drew up a masterful play for Gardner out of a timeout two possessions prior so I find it odd if that was the play he drew up for Thomas with 22 seconds on the clock. Being a numbers guy, Buzz wouldn't settle for the least convertible opportunity so perhaps it's Thomas who was the one to make a choice and didn't make the best one. Either way, play was run to the hilt or it was a read option gone wrong, I don't feel it was the best look they could have gotten.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 26, 2013, 10:59:06 AM
This. The timing of the shot was absolutely right. It gives you a chance for an offensive board or a foul if you miss.
You can still get an offensive board if the shot goes up with six seconds left in the game. That would have given Thomas another four seconds to dribble into a better shot or kick to the man whose defender had collapsed on him. There was no need to rush an off-balanced 20 footer with 10 seconds left on clock.
Why not? Jake was hot. I was surprised they ran a play at all and didn't just run a set. But again, they got two looks in the last 10 seconds to tie or go ahead. They didn't go in. Neither is really a bad look.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on November 26, 2013, 11:00:30 AM
Plus, Buzz knew there was a TV time out to come.
Was that really the first dead ball under 4:00? Or is there some obnoxious new TV timeout rule?
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 26, 2013, 04:17:24 PM
Was that really the first dead ball under 4:00? Or is there some obnoxious new TV timeout rule?
Yep...Buzz had to burn his last at 27 seconds to set up Jake, and then the TV time out came at 7 seconds with Jamil's foul.
I thought Jake was late coming around the screens - he should have had one more second. The real problem with the play was that there should have been a trailer on the right side rather than JJJ lost in space.
Davante and CO crashed well and Davante got the board... I was disappointed that he didn't know how little time was left and get up another shot.
I agree that those plays were not what I was looking for, but I agree with some of the posts above that Buzz seems to put together some great inbound plays. I haven't looked back at the game, but I seem to recall us getting an inbounds score right before the end of the first half, then another shortly after the start of the second half (if I recall right with Jake fist pumping after sinking a 3 from the play), then I remember Davante doing a crazy cut to the hoop with an awesome lay in, and I thought there was at least one other. Does anyone know if those were all inbound plays?
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on November 26, 2013, 05:26:13 PM
Yep...Buzz had to burn his last at 27 seconds to set up Jake, and then the TV time out came at 7 seconds with Jamil's foul.
Wow. When that happened I actually turned to my wife and asked her "was that really the under 4:00 timeout?"
Of course she had no idea what I was talking about...