I know there are numerous threads acknowledging the lengthy list of deficiencies this team has shown through four games, however I wanted to simply focus on the big man.
Through the small sample size, Ox has tallied his lowest shooting percentages in his MU career (48% fg, 67% ft). He's a guy that wears his emotions on his sleeve (arguably more than any player I've seen don the blue and gold), and that emotion has been predominantly frustration thus far. That frustration was obvious when he scored a basket in the 2nd half after being fouled (with his arms at his side, I read his body language as saying "shiiiiiiiiiiiiiit...bout damn time.").
With UNH's Pelcher marred with foul trouble Thurs night, Davante should've had a field day.
Having a team with limited proven and consistent offensive quantities, we need Davante now more than ever. I'm curious to hear people's thoughts on the big man's start to the season. Are his frustrations tied to our guards ineffectiveness at getting him the ball where he needs it, or something else?
Quote from: Wade for President on November 22, 2013, 07:47:16 AM
IAre his frustrations tied to our guards ineffectiveness at getting him the ball where he needs it, or something else?
I'm no psychologist, but not getting the ball and playing time are the most likely reasons for frustration, though it could be anything.
Throwing it out there, but I think Vander may have cost himself money and maybe DG as well.
Know what I mean....
He should be having a field day with the new rules, but I would have to think the biggest factor hurting him is the ability of the defense to completely pack it in because of the pitiful shooting. Makes things a lot harder down there for him. As the shooting comes along, I would think things will open up for him a bit. I thought Burr got him on some tough calls in the OSU game, and maybe that took a little aggressiveness away too.
I'm surprised he hasn't learned to curb the show of emotions on the court a little more over the years. It can't earn him any favors from the refs, and could be unsettling to younger teammates if the frustration is directed at them. Still, it's hard not to like him. I have to believe it will come around, unless we continue to shoot as bad from the perimeter as we have.
Quote from: StillWarriors on November 22, 2013, 08:04:00 AM
He should be having a field day with the new rules, but I would have to think the biggest factor hurting him is the ability of the defense to completely pack it in because of the pitiful shooting. Makes things a lot harder down there for him. As the shooting comes along, I would think things will open up for him a bit. I thought Burr got him on some tough calls in the OSU game, and maybe that took a little aggressiveness away too.
I also thought he would be unstopable under the new rules. Now, I am beginning to wonder if the new rules hurt him. His whole game was developed on using his size and strength to ward off body contact. Now that defenders cannot push him and he cannot push back, it has become more of a finesse game than a power game and he has not adjusted. However, that does not explain his free throw shooting.
Last year we had two guys whose games were predicated on driving to the rim. Derrick has shown he can drive a bit, but is still only doing it 2-3 times per night as he is clearly a more cautious player than Junior was. When Mayo drives, he is usually doing it looking to finish (for better or worse) and the next time Jake drives will be the first.
I don't think any of our players is fatally flawed. Having a pass-first, ball control PG is fine. Having a defensive specialist SG is fine. Off the bench, guys like Todd and Juan both have great attributes they bring. But as a combination, right now they simply aren't clicking, and while most of their statlines are looking pretty pedestrian, it's killing Gardner's ability to get the ball.
I also think bilsu makes a great point about how Gardner would use contact. One thing that has really impressed me about Chris is that he's developed a few legitimate post moves. His baby hook and his pivot turn both allow him to score while avoiding contact, and it's helped. Might be time for Gardner to start trying to pick up some of Chris' offensive game.
And no, I never thought I'd say that.
What has surprised me most about Gardner's shooting has been how badly he has missed some wide-open looks. He completely missed the rim on a 10-footer yesterday, badly missed a shot just inside the foul line and hasn't been close on several of his FTs this season.
Just looks "off."
Buzz has alluded to poor work habits. If true, that would explain a lot.
Quote from: MU82 on November 22, 2013, 09:02:00 AM
What has surprised me most about Gardner's shooting has been how badly he has missed some wide-open looks. He completely missed the rim on a 10-footer yesterday, badly missed a shot just inside the foul line and hasn't been close on several of his FTs this season.
Just looks "off."
Buzz has alluded to poor work habits. If true, that would explain a lot.
he mentally checks out of games when things dont go his way.... you can tell by his body language... but he doesnt play enough minutes either...
I struggle with his body language because it seems negative often. While I find it frustrating, it very possibly is just how he rolls. Because of the body language I have hard time warming up to his performance. He is exceeded all expectations during his time here and I give him props for that.
A "defensive specialist SG?" What's the "S" for?
Quote from: mileskishnish72 on November 22, 2013, 09:48:45 AM
A "defensive specialist SG?" What's the "S" for?
I hope you're joking. Obviously points can come from any position on the floor, as can defense.
Davante is doing nothing different than he has done for 3 plus years. The difference is that right now he isn't scoring. We overlooked the flaws because he is a low-post scoring machine. Right now, the flaws are highlighted because he is shooting like crap.
Quote from: tower912 on November 22, 2013, 10:59:14 AM
Davante is doing nothing different than he has done for 3 plus years. The difference is that right now he isn't scoring. We overlooked the flaws because he is a low-post scoring machine. Right now, the flaws are highlighted because he is shooting like crap.
I would argue part of that is because other scorers aren't helping to free him up. When you have a slashing threat (Vander) or decent outside threats, that opens other things up. Right now we don't have much of any threat so that makes it tougher for him.
So he needs to work harder. He is being asked to do more, but Buzz is talking about his practice habits. He simply does not work to get open in the post every trip down the floor. Yes, sagging guards make that tougher. But he is not being strong in the post or strong with the ball. That has nothing to do with his surrounding cast.
Truthfully, this is the final step in DG's development as a player.
He's in great shape. He has the skills. He has the respect. He can get the ball if he wants it.
The problem is that the secrets out on DG, and teams are focusing on him on defense (even more than last year).
He has to learn to push through when it's not going his way, and he has to make an impact. Buzz will work with him.
Quote from: tower912 on November 22, 2013, 11:12:32 AM
So he needs to work harder. He is being asked to do more, but Buzz is talking about his practice habits. He simply does not work to get open in the post every trip down the floor. Yes, sagging guards make that tougher. But he is not being strong in the post or strong with the ball. That has nothing to do with his surrounding cast.
I don't agree it has NOTHING to do with surrounding cast. If Jerry Rice is running routes and I'm the QB, he isn't catching the ball as I am his surrounding cast.
That being said, if he isn't working hard enough to get open, then that is what he needs to do as well....I think it can an answer of both cast and hard work.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 22, 2013, 08:57:03 AM
Derrick has shown he can drive a bit, and the next time Jake drives will be the first.
Besides chuckling at the comment about Jake, this is reason why I'd like to see Buzz experiment more with Jamil at the point. Jamil keeps his head up, can see over smaller defenders, and is a
greater threat offensively.
Who knows...maybe sliding Jamil to the point might force him to be more aggressive on the offensive side of the ball. Jamil at the point would at a minimum force defenses to play him honest, which in turn could open up some passing lanes/help with spacing for Davante to be more effective.
Hitting outside shots will undoubtedly be the first step in opening up the interior a bit.
Quote from: tower912 on November 22, 2013, 10:59:14 AM
Davante is doing nothing different than he has done for 3 plus years. The difference is that right now he isn't scoring. We overlooked the flaws because he is a low-post scoring machine. Right now, the flaws are highlighted because he is shooting like crap.
Well, if missing FT after FT and bricking 10-footers is nothing different, then I agree with you.
Quote from: MU82 on November 22, 2013, 11:47:18 AM
Well, if missing FT after FT and bricking 10-footers is nothing different, then I agree with you.
+1
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 22, 2013, 11:19:54 AM
I don't agree it has NOTHING to do with surrounding cast. If Jerry Rice is running routes and I'm the QB, he isn't catching the ball as I am his surrounding cast.
That being said, if he isn't working hard enough to get open, then that is what he needs to do as well....I think it can an answer of both cast and hard work.
DG is lazy so far this season. Otule works much harder. Bob Wenzel commented on the air about asking Buzz why the sixth man of the year last year does not start this year. The answer Buzz gave him, DG does not work hard enough.
Quote from: Wade for President on November 22, 2013, 07:47:16 AM
Through the small sample size, Ox has tallied his lowest shooting percentages in his MU career (48% fg, 67% ft).
Funny thing is, those might be the lowest numbers of his career, but those are by no means bad numbers.
Quote from: MU82 on November 22, 2013, 11:47:18 AM
Well, if missing FT after FT and bricking 10-footers is nothing different, then I agree with you.
For clarity's sake, nothing different on the defensive end. His scoring is different and why we are all ticked at him.
Quote from: MU82 on November 22, 2013, 09:02:00 AM
What has surprised me most about Gardner's shooting has been how badly he has missed some wide-open looks. He completely missed the rim on a 10-footer yesterday, badly missed a shot just inside the foul line and hasn't been close on several of his FTs this season.
Just looks "off."
Buzz has alluded to poor work habits. If true, that would explain a lot.
DG was definitely off last night - never seen him miss a shot as bad as that 10 footer straight on...and his FT's were off last night...but DG played pretty well the first couple of games.
Think the biggest problem is the PG play - teams are clogging the lane and can pack the paint when Derrick is such a non-threat offensively. Derrick puts ZERO pressure on the defense. Your scouting MU - would you not sag off Derrick and dare him to beat you with a perimeter shot?? And then the problem is, if a team is sagging off you and has no respect for your jumper - you than are that much more challenged to drive the ball to the paint...as your defender is playing off you, and you can't beat them with a quick first step.
DG has said Dawson was the best looking of the freshman - by gut says he wants Dawson running the point, and is annoyed like 75% of the MU fanbase with Derrick running it...
Maybe with all of the JFK talk this week, it's the conspiracy theories talking, but...... I felt many pre-conference games last year, Buzz purposely didn't play Davante. What's the point, if he could go off for 30 on UMBC or some other scrub team? I kind of think Buzz knows that once conference season starts, Davante will get his 12 points and 5 rebounds. So he leaves him out and lets the other guys "practice" their offensive sets and figure out their offensive game.
As others have noted he wears his emotions on his sleeve. Watching him play over the last 3 years that allows you to read his personality.
In his first 2-years he was excited about his role on the team. He loved being able to make a great pass (as much as he loved to score). He impressed me with his ability to quickly find the open man and kick the ball out of the post. His defense always lacked as he frankly didn't enjoy it and didn't see how it showed up in the box score.
Last year, his defense ticked up a notch, but still struggled. But his evolution on the offensive end was interesting. He felt like he was suppose to be the star. When getting the ball in the post he no longer looked for the kick-outs and cutters...he was going to do his thing, score or get fouled. He was successful at this so his lack of desire to make the open pass was not as obvious.
This year, things have progressed along those lines in a less beneficial way. I truly believe he thinks this is suppose to be his team. He is not getting the attention he feels he deserves. Frankly, I think this is because he doesn't put the time in on D or in practice. Because he is not getting the focus he wants, he isn't taking the game seriously. We need Devante from 2-years ago back...scores when he is open, kicks it out when he is not. Does his job and doesn't think he is larger than the game.
I think there is conflict between him and Buzz, hence the 3-pt fg attempt that clearly irked Buzz, and the steal at the end of the Ohio St. game (which I'm sure ticked Buzz off also).
Quote from: Ners on November 22, 2013, 05:21:40 PM
DG has said Dawson was the best looking of the freshman - by gut says he wants Dawson running the point, and is annoyed like 75% of the MU fanbase with Derrick running it...
Well, if that's the case, Davante should suck it up and get over himself. I don't think he, or any other player for that matter, can afford or has earned the right to be "annoyed" with personnel decisions,
Quote from: StillWarriors on November 22, 2013, 08:04:00 AM
He should be having a field day with the new rules, but I would have to think the biggest factor hurting him is the ability of the defense to completely pack it in because of the pitiful shooting. Makes things a lot harder down there for him. As the shooting comes along, I would think things will open up for him a bit. I thought Burr got him on some tough calls in the OSU game, and maybe that took a little aggressiveness away too.
I'm surprised he hasn't learned to curb the show of emotions on the court a little more over the years. It can't earn him any favors from the refs, and could be unsettling to younger teammates if the frustration is directed at them. Still, it's hard not to like him. I have to believe it will come around, unless we continue to shoot as bad from the perimeter as we have.
Most of the time it's personal frustration, not directed at the refs or his teammates, so I hope they can see that and don't factor that in. I have the utmost respect for him, choosing MU and our uptempo style (at least his first couple years we played really uptempo at times), and sometimes being leaned on for our best offense, a solid overachiever I would say.
I could see his frustration. Not getting the ball inside because it has been difficult because we are not hitting from the outside. He doesn't stay in a funk long. He will be back soon. Monday I hope!
Quote from: Daniel on November 23, 2013, 11:44:52 AM
I could see his frustration. Not getting the ball inside because it has been difficult because we are not hitting from the outside. He doesn't stay in a funk long. He will be back soon. Monday I hope!
OK ... but being frustrated about not getting the ball inside shouldn't make him miss FTs.
If it does, then he is not as mentally tough as he needs to be.
Quote from: MU82 on November 22, 2013, 09:02:00 AM
What has surprised me most about Gardner's shooting has been how badly he has missed some wide-open looks. He completely missed the rim on a 10-footer yesterday, badly missed a shot just inside the foul line and hasn't been close on several of his FTs this season.
Just looks "off."
Buzz has alluded to poor work habits. If true, that would explain a lot.
If we're getting poor work habits from our 4 year seniors, this could be a long season.
Quote from: Ners on November 22, 2013, 05:21:40 PM
DG has said Dawson was the best looking of the freshman - by gut says he wants Dawson running the point, and is annoyed like 75% of the MU fanbase with Derrick running it...
This is SUCH a Ners post.
Ners wants Dawson running the point. Therefore he views EVERYTHING through that lens. So the reason that DG is loafing is because he wants Dawson running the point. ::)
Davante will be fine.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 23, 2013, 04:16:46 PM
This is SUCH a Ners post.
Ners wants Dawson running the point. Therefore he views EVERYTHING through that lens. So the reason that DG is loafing is because he wants Dawson running the point. ::)
I guess Paint Touches didn't talk to Davante when they said this:
Spoke to about 10 players and coaches. Unanimously said Jajuan Johnson has impressed the most. One player: "could be our best guard."https://twitter.com/PaintTouches/status/388772601650098177
Davante is probably frustrated. Why? Because there are five defenders in the paint whenever he touches the ball. Once Mayo, Anderson, J Wil, Thomas, Burton, and JJJ find their stroke, that will change.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 23, 2013, 05:35:08 PM
Davante is probably frustrated. Why? Because there are five defenders in the paint whenever he touches the ball. Once Mayo, Anderson, J Wil, Thomas, Burton, and JJJ find their stroke, that will change.
Again ... there aren't 5 defenders on him when he's standing alone at the FT line. And there weren't 5 defenders on him when he completely missed the rim on a wide-open 10-footer.
Davante is a big boy, literally and figuratively. He doesn't need us to make excuses for him.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 23, 2013, 05:35:08 PM
Davante is probably frustrated. Why? Because there are five defenders in the paint whenever he touches the ball. Once Mayo, Anderson, J Wil, Thomas, Burton, and JJJ find their stroke, that will change.
Then why doesn't he kick it out like he used to to an open man. Easiest shot is when the ball comes back out to you from the post. Rather, he eats the ball now and forces up shots. When he gets the calls it looks brilliant, when he doesn't it looks awful.
I'm sure he is frustrated, because of the different way people are defending us...doesn't seem to be affecting Otule to the same extent. He needs to learn to adapt and not mope.