There has been a barrage of posts questioning Buzz and the lack of playing time for the young fellas. It is fair to say under Buzz the last five years, the team really starts to gel come January. This year will be no exception.
As to why he did not play JJ or Dawson, only Buzz has the answer. I will hazard a guess that Buzz was/is going to give DW and JT enough time to show they can either carry their load or not. Based on the first three games, clearly JT cannot and DW is not that much further ahead. Buzz does not want to destroy the confidence of either player, but a some point he will pull the trigger. Unless JT gets it going, he will be the first one pulled from the starting lineup and perhaps being buried deep in the bench, just like last year. DW will continue to start because Buzz really has no other option. He will not start Dawson at the point. Dawson may earn more minutes, but he will not start unless he really shows something.
I think both JJ and Dawson will begin seeing a lot more time if the play of the starters does not improve very soon. After Saturday, no doubt the coaching staff is trying to figure out the next move. My guess is Buzz will hang with this guard alignment a few more games and unless there is improvement, look for JT to take a seat first with DW on a tighter leash.
I think this is probably accurate. A few more options for the SG spot exist. Dawson looked fine against Grambling...no better but probably no worse than DWill. But, we are not going to be playing any more Gramblings either.
What freshmen?
When I was young and knew everything.......
For the life of me
I cannot remember
What made us think we were wise and we'd never compromise
For the life of me
I cannot believe
We'd ever die for these sins
we were merely freshmen.
NCAA ruled freshmen ineligible this year....but only at certain schools
Sounds like a lawsuit in the makin'.
Put the best players on the floor no matter if they are seniors or freshmen. Play whoever gives us the best chance to win. The pecking order should be determined in practice. If the starters can't make a basket, put in players that can shoot. Play whoever can score. There is enough talent on this team to win.
Quote from: 79Warrior on November 17, 2013, 04:04:09 PM
There has been a barrage of posts questioning Buzz and the lack of playing time for the young fellas. It is fair to say under Buzz the last five years, the team really starts to gel come January. This year will be no exception.
As to why he did not play JJ or Dawson, only Buzz has the answer. I will hazard a guess that Buzz was/is going to give DW and JT enough time to show they can either carry their load or not. Based on the first three games, clearly JT cannot and DW is not that much further ahead. Buzz does not want to destroy the confidence of either player, but a some point he will pull the trigger. Unless JT gets it going, he will be the first one pulled from the starting lineup and perhaps being buried deep in the bench, just like last year. DW will continue to start because Buzz really has no other option. He will not start Dawson at the point. Dawson may earn more minutes, but he will not start unless he really shows something.
I think both JJ and Dawson will begin seeing a lot more time if the play of the starters does not improve very soon. After Saturday, no doubt the coaching staff is trying to figure out the next move. My guess is Buzz will hang with this guard alignment a few more games and unless there is improvement, look for JT to take a seat first with DW on a tighter leash.
DW on a tighter leash.?????
If DW has a problem on offense, its keeping himself on too tight a leash. Minimal turnovers, but reduced offensive opportunities perhaps. He certainly wasn't one of those chucking up bricks.
Quote from: tower912 on November 17, 2013, 04:17:55 PM
When I was young and knew everything.......
For the life of me
I cannot remember
What made us think we were wise and we'd never compromise
For the life of me
I cannot believe
We'd ever die for these sins
we were merely freshmen.
Good taste, Tower.
Quote from: LittleMurs on November 18, 2013, 07:00:34 PM
DW on a tighter leash.?????
If DW has a problem on offense, its keeping himself on too tight a leash. Minimal turnovers, but reduced offensive opportunities perhaps. He certainly wasn't one of those chucking up bricks.
I was not referring to his offense, he has none. My point is if he can't get the offense going then bring in JD.
Quote from: 79Warrior on November 18, 2013, 07:44:43 PM
I was not referring to his offense, he has none. My point is if he can't get the offense going then bring in JD.
Of everyone on the team, I'm pretty sure DeWil's position is the most secure.
Quote from: LittleMurs on November 18, 2013, 07:00:34 PM
If DW has a problem on offense, its keeping himself on too tight a leash. Minimal turnovers, but reduced offensive opportunities perhaps. He certainly wasn't one of those chucking up bricks.
Uh, he took 7 shots from the floor and 4 from the foul line. That is 11 bricks chucked. If he takes more shots than Gardner, that is a problem.
Quote from: CTWarrior on November 19, 2013, 07:11:53 AM
Uh, he took 7 shots from the floor and 4 from the foul line. That is 11 bricks chucked. If he takes more shots than Gardner, that is a problem.
When did he take those shots? The drive to the hoop was very good. In the second half, he threw up some bricks when we were down because Ohio State denied the entry passes and he didn't really have an outlet. You can't just look at the box score and say "Derrick took more shots than Gardner, so Derrick must have been doing bad." If he could have gotten the ball to Gardner, he would have. It simply wasn't there.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 19, 2013, 07:32:39 AM
When did he take those shots? The drive to the hoop was very good. In the second half, he threw up some bricks when we were down because Ohio State denied the entry passes and he didn't really have an outlet. You can't just look at the box score and say "Derrick took more shots than Gardner, so Derrick must have been doing bad." If he could have gotten the ball to Gardner, he would have. It simply wasn't there.
Except for the fact that they did not go in they were all good shots. He has to shoot, if the defense is going to back off of him. Cadougan could not shoot either, but over time he got better at it. It is possible that Derrick will not improve, but I do not see it as a given that he will not.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 19, 2013, 07:32:39 AM
When did he take those shots? The drive to the hoop was very good. In the second half, he threw up some bricks when we were down because Ohio State denied the entry passes and he didn't really have an outlet. You can't just look at the box score and say "Derrick took more shots than Gardner, so Derrick must have been doing bad." If he could have gotten the ball to Gardner, he would have. It simply wasn't there.
It wasn't there because OSU packed the paint, and dared Derrick to shoot - which he did, and threw up a few bricks - the worst one was the one that banked off the backboard from the top of the key area. He did have 2 that I recall that were at least on line, and rattled in and out.
A more competent and skilled PG can break a defense down, get in the paint almost at will, and create dump offs for a teammate like Gardner. Cadougan was good at this. If you can't shoot it, you better at least be able consistently break down the D and create shots or in your word "make it there" for your teammates.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 19, 2013, 07:32:39 AM
When did he take those shots? The drive to the hoop was very good. In the second half, he threw up some bricks when we were down because Ohio State denied the entry passes and he didn't really have an outlet. You can't just look at the box score and say "Derrick took more shots than Gardner, so Derrick must have been doing bad." If he could have gotten the ball to Gardner, he would have. It simply wasn't there.
It is my position that every shot he takes is a "brick" because
a) if it is outside 10 feet it is not going in
b) if it is inside 10 feet it is very likely not going in and our defensive rotations will be screwed because he is our best defender at stopping runouts
He should be driving and dishing. If they sag off of him he still has to be able to drive until he draws pressure and then find the open man. If he can't do that or develop a reliable pull-up jumper it is going to be difficult for him to be effective, because besides not being even a decent shooter, he does not possess great court vision and thus is not a great passer. His attributes are that he has a solid handle, does not turn the ball over and is a good to great defender.
If we're not willing to use other options at the point, we have to figure out how to turn that PG into a successful offense. I don't know how I would do it, but fortunately I am just a dumb fan and not the coach. I'm sure Buzz will work something out.
De. Wilson's inability to shoot would be fine if there were others that can loosen up the defense. But as it stands, no one can make an outside shot. Thomas, Jamil and Mayo were terrible on Saturday, and those are MU's three best shooters.
Face it, Junior wasn't much of a shooter either, but you put Jae and DJO on his team, and driving and passing lanes open up all over the place.
You put John Dawson in that game and nothing changes.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 19, 2013, 09:15:11 AM
You put John Dawson in that game and nothing changes.
This is probably true unless Dawson can shoot, either from beyond the arc or via the pull-up jumper from mid-range. I have no idea if he can. A "creative" passer would be helpful, too. I really don't know what Dawson is capable of, so I would like to see him play more. I am also smart enough to know that Buzz does have a very good idea of what Dawson is capable of, and isn't just going to throw him in games to educate me.
Quote from: CTWarrior on November 19, 2013, 10:19:29 AM
This is probably true unless Dawson can shoot, either from beyond the arc or via the pull-up jumper from mid-range. I have no idea if he can. A "creative" passer would be helpful, too. I really don't know what Dawson is capable of, so I would like to see him play more. I am also smart enough to know that Buzz does have a very good idea of what Dawson is capable of, and isn't just going to throw him in games to educate me.
Talk like this has no place on Scoop!
Quote from: CTWarrior on November 19, 2013, 09:10:04 AMHe should be driving and dishing. If they sag off of him he still has to be able to drive until he draws pressure and then find the open man.
He was driving with some success in the first half. Once Ohio State built a lead, they packed the lane. Trying to drive against a packed defense would have likely resulted in turnovers or charges.
Quote from: CTWarrior on November 19, 2013, 09:10:04 AMIf he can't do that or develop a reliable pull-up jumper it is going to be difficult for him to be effective, because besides not being even a decent shooter, he does not possess great court vision and thus is not a great passer.
He displayed more court vision in the first two games than anyone else on the roster. In the second half against Ohio State, all the lanes were being clogged. They sagged off Derrick to reduce his ability to pass the ball inside. No, he doesn't have a great shot, but it was his only option Saturday.
Quote from: CTWarrior on November 19, 2013, 09:10:04 AMHis attributes are that he has a solid handle, does not turn the ball over and is a good to great defender.
All true, and those two factors (not turning the ball over and defense) are the reasons he is going to see 28-32 mpg the rest of the year.
Quote from: CTWarrior on November 19, 2013, 09:10:04 AMIf we're not willing to use other options at the point, we have to figure out how to turn that PG into a successful offense. I don't know how I would do it, but fortunately I am just a dumb fan and not the coach. I'm sure Buzz will work something out.
Right now the only other option at point is Dawson, and he hasn't been any better offensively but has been notably worse at keeping the ball and hasn't been as good a defender.
We had a bad 7 minutes. We went from being within a couple baskets to down 14. And when you are down 14 against a defense like Ohio State's with 8 minutes to play, the game is over. I don't think any team in the country would have overcome that deficit. It was a bad 7 minute stretch. That's really it. And after that, having Junior, or Dawson, or Marcus Smart, or Shabazz Napier wouldn't have made the difference.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 19, 2013, 10:23:42 AM
We had a bad 7 minutes. We went from being within a couple baskets to down 14.
We had a bad 7 minutes on defense. On offense, we had a bad 40 minutes. I think Derrick Wilson is miscast as a starting PG on a team with our aspirations. I think he is a fine backup PG (hold down the fort while the starter takes a breather, come in to D up a hot guard). I also think you are correct that he is our best option right now.
I love great PG play and tend to focus on that when I watch basketball. I need to remember that Derrick is only a part of our offensive woes and that he will not be such a sore thumb if/when Mayo/Thomas are draining threes and Jamil/Mayo are slashing to the hoop creating opportunities.
Quote from: CTWarrior on November 19, 2013, 10:37:05 AM
We had a bad 7 minutes on defense. On offense, we had a bad 40 minutes. I think Derrick Wilson is miscast as a starting PG on a team with our aspirations. I think he is a fine backup PG (hold down the fort while the starter takes a breather, come in to D up a hot guard). I also think you are correct that he is our best option right now.
I love great PG play and tend to focus on that when I watch basketball. I need to remember that Derrick is only a part of our offensive woes and that he will not be such a sore thumb if/when Mayo/Thomas are draining threes and Jamil/Mayo are slashing to the hoop creating opportunities.
I think that's one of the main things. Mayo, Jamil, and Jake all got open looks from three and were clanking them. Because of that, the defense packed in once they had a lead and forced us to beat them from beyond the arc. That took away Derrick's ability to drive or pass inside (which he did with some success in the first half). Had we been able to get the ball inside to Gardner and Otule, most likely at least one of Williams or McDonald would have fouled out, probably both. That would have reduced their size inside and forced Ohio State to play small which would have further opened things up to get the ball inside.
That game was ugly and was always going to be ugly. Ohio State didn't exactly shoot well either. We missed some easy twos and some open threes and that was the difference in the game. As ugly as that game looked, we very well could have won it if our guys just hit the open shots. And most of those weren't the looks Derrick had, but the guys Derrick got the ball to.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 19, 2013, 10:23:42 AM
He was driving with some success in the first half.
He has the ability to get to the basket, but he has not yet shown that he can finish.
Quote from: Ners on November 19, 2013, 09:09:48 AM
It wasn't there because OSU packed the paint, and dared Derrick to shoot - which he did, and threw up a few bricks - the worst one was the one that banked off the backboard from the top of the key area. He did have 2 that I recall that were at least on line, and rattled in and out.
Oh boy. Have we resorted to near misses to defend DW's offense or lack thereof.
It still comes down to that we did not lose the game because of Derrick. He did the job that is expected of him. Do not turn the ball over and play good defense. This team should expect 50+ points a game out of Gardner , Jamil, Otule and Mayo. 20+ points a game from the rest of the team.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 19, 2013, 10:44:21 AM
I think that's one of the main things. Mayo, Jamil, and Jake all got open looks from three and were clanking them. Because of that, the defense packed in once they had a lead and forced us to beat them from beyond the arc. That took away Derrick's ability to drive or pass inside (which he did with some success in the first half). Had we been able to get the ball inside to Gardner and Otule, most likely at least one of Williams or McDonald would have fouled out, probably both. That would have reduced their size inside and forced Ohio State to play small which would have further opened things up to get the ball inside.
That game was ugly and was always going to be ugly. Ohio State didn't exactly shoot well either. We missed some easy twos and some open threes and that was the difference in the game. As ugly as that game looked, we very well could have won it if our guys just hit the open shots. And most of those weren't the looks Derrick had, but the guys Derrick got the ball to.
Well said, brew.
In the first half alone, Marquette missed 7 layups/point-blank shots, with 4 of them being blocked. Let's say that MU makes just those 3 unblocked misses. Instead of being tied, MU is (hypothetically) up 6 at half and it's an entirely different game.
Another hypothetical: If MU hits a lowly 22% from 3 for the game, that's 9 additional points and an entirely different game.
Teams always look better than they really are when shots are falling and always look worse than they really are when shots are not falling. When Marquette's shots aren't falling, that doesn't mean the sky is.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 19, 2013, 11:05:35 AMWhen Marquette's shots aren't falling, that doesn't mean the sky is.
LOL +1000
Well said. But, since we have a deep team, it makes good sense to replace cold shooting players with players who can shoot and/or make plays to score. Buzz should take advantage of his talent and replace players that are "cold." This seems obvious, so why didn't he manage the players better?
Because no one was playing cold on the other end of the court. The fan perspective is that everything starts on offense. That is the exact opposite of how things actually go at Marquette. People pining for Johnson and Dawson need to realize that what will get them in is either (a) improving their defense in practice or (b) mistakes by the starters. As much as people like to point out their gripes about guys not scoring, there really weren't that many mistakes being made.
I know this will probably get some resistance, but we had 7 minutes where the defense faltered a bit. Even still, we held a top-10 team to 52 points and put up one of the best defensive showings I've ever seen by a Buzz team. And as far as the run-outs and fast-break points tOSU got, those weren't mistakes on the defensive end.
So move to the offense. Again, it wasn't so much mistakes as the simple case of shots not falling. We had easy chances inside that didn't fall and at least a half-dozen uncontested threes that didn't fall. Taking those shots are not mistakes. They are shots the guys should have been taking, unfortunately they simply weren't making them.
You want an example of a mistake, look at Davante's three attempt. And Buzz pulled him right after. I'm not happy that Jake, Todd, and Jamil missed the shots they did. But they took a ton of good shots that on most other days should have gone in. For some reason they didn't. But Buzz won't pull a guy for missing a shot that he was correct to take. And until they take shots they aren't supposed to take (like DG's three) my guess is you'll keep seeing those guys get the lion's share of the minutes.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 19, 2013, 12:01:24 PM
So move to the offense. Again, it wasn't so much mistakes as the simple case of shots not falling. We had easy chances inside that didn't fall and at least a half-dozen uncontested threes that didn't fall. Taking those shots are not mistakes. They are shots the guys should have been taking, unfortunately they simply weren't making them.
Unfortunately, for Thomas and Wilson, I think it is a little more than the shots not falliing. I'm sure Buzz will disagree, but I would say Wilson shooting a 3 is just as big a mistake as Gardner shooting a 3.
Right. It's completely irrelevant whether or not Derrick's and Jake's shots are contested or uncontested. Their MU history has shown they can't shoot. Period.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 19, 2013, 12:01:24 PM
Because no one was playing cold on the other end of the court. The fan perspective is that everything starts on offense. That is the exact opposite of how things actually go at Marquette. People pining for Johnson and Dawson need to realize that what will get them in is either (a) improving their defense in practice or (b) mistakes by the starters. As much as people like to point out their gripes about guys not scoring, there really weren't that many mistakes being made.
I know this will probably get some resistance, but we had 7 minutes where the defense faltered a bit. Even still, we held a top-10 team to 52 points and put up one of the best defensive showings I've ever seen by a Buzz team. And as far as the run-outs and fast-break points tOSU got, those weren't mistakes on the defensive end.
So move to the offense. Again, it wasn't so much mistakes as the simple case of shots not falling. We had easy chances inside that didn't fall and at least a half-dozen uncontested threes that didn't fall. Taking those shots are not mistakes. They are shots the guys should have been taking, unfortunately they simply weren't making them.
You want an example of a mistake, look at Davante's three attempt. And Buzz pulled him right after. I'm not happy that Jake, Todd, and Jamil missed the shots they did. But they took a ton of good shots that on most other days should have gone in. For some reason they didn't. But Buzz won't pull a guy for missing a shot that he was correct to take. And until they take shots they aren't supposed to take (like DG's three) my guess is you'll keep seeing those guys get the lion's share of the minutes.
Gardner wasn't pulled simply for taking that 3. He was pulled because he took it with about 20 seconds left on the shot clock (and possibly without there being a paint touch, I don't recall exactly). Buzz has said numerous times that Gardner is a decent outside shooter but he needs to take those outside shots within the offense.