Quote from: brewcity77 on November 16, 2013, 03:10:31 PM
I said to a friend that the outcry here would be hilarious. I was right. I have faith in the guy that has won 7 NCAA games the last 3 years.
Pretty staggering, the collective trolling, lobotimization, and flat out idiocy that has occurred on this board, game 3 of the season.
We played poorly, we were coached poorly. We lost badly.
But seriously,
GET SOME F***ING PERSPECTIVE. Sigh...welcome back, chicken little brigade--it's like you haven't watched ANY Marquette basketball over the past 5-6 seasons--have you? Hell, that's why the checklist may be one of the best posts ever on Scoop. That stuff happens, without fail, EVERY SEASON. So calm down.
The same folks who beg and plead to pay Buzz more, and wet themselves out of fear over every article written about Texas basketball, strangely are the some of the same folks burying the guy over A SINGLE GAME in November. Would you rather MU have beaten Butler last November, or in March? (I hope that folks know that's a rhetorical question, because NO ONE with any sanity would answer the former.) So enough with the diaper-baby rants about a loss in November being "A BIG DEAL." Games in March are BIG DEALS, because when a team loses them, the season is OVER (they also happen to be nationally televised!). Games like Saturday's, well, it was rough on the eyeballs, but we'll play ~25+ more, starting Thursday. And OH NOES, the committee will arbitrarily "seed" us somewhere in a tournament completely dependent upon matchups and preparation.
Some of Buzz's moves should be criticized from this game. But get serious--we all know his early season strategy of playing upperclassmen, despite freshmen who ultimately will be better players. WE KNOW THIS--HE'S DONE IT FOR YEARS. We also know the guy will experiment, tweak the lineups, figure out which groups of players execute well together, calibrate different lineups for opponents, and WIN. WE KNOW THIS BECAUSE HE'S DONE IT FOR YEARS.
Buzz's record stands for itself. The guy who has taken us to the NCAA tournament EVERY YEAR, 2 sweet 16s, an elite 8, and continually rakes in highly rated recruits (EVEN A BIG THIS YEAR!) has EARNED some slack, and DESERVES the benefit of the doubt, and not the tsunami of overwrought, PATHETIC, concern trolling bulls*** masquerading as some sort of referendum on his coaching and the state of the season after the THIRD F***ING game.
Be better fans, please. And for f***'s sake, get some sort of grip on history and some perspective.
Quote from: lab_warrior on November 17, 2013, 11:35:18 AM
Pretty staggering, the collective trolling, lobotimization, and flat out idiocy that has occurred on this board, game 3 of the season.
We played poorly, we were coached poorly. We lost badly.
But seriously, GET SOME F***ING PERSPECTIVE. Sigh...welcome back, chicken little brigade--it's like you haven't watched ANY Marquette basketball over the past 5-6 seasons--have you? Hell, that's why the checklist may be one of the best posts ever on Scoop. That stuff happens, without fail, EVERY SEASON. So calm down.
The same folks who beg and plead to pay Buzz more, and wet themselves out of fear over every article written about Texas basketball, strangely are the some of the same folks burying the guy over A SINGLE GAME in November. Would you rather MU have beaten Butler last November, or in March? (I hope that folks know that's a rhetorical question, because NO ONE with any sanity would answer the former.) So enough with the diaper-baby rants about a loss in November being "A BIG DEAL." Games in March are BIG DEALS, because when a team loses them, the season is OVER (they also happen to be nationally televised!). Games like Saturday's, well, it was rough on the eyeballs, but we'll play ~25+ more, starting Thursday. And OH NOES, the committee will arbitrarily "seed" us somewhere in a tournament completely dependent upon matchups and preparation.
Some of Buzz's moves should be criticized from this game. But get serious--we all know his early season strategy of playing upperclassmen, despite freshmen who ultimately will be better players. WE KNOW THIS--HE'S DONE IT FOR YEARS. We also know the guy will experiment, tweak the lineups, figure out which groups of players execute well together, calibrate different lineups for opponents, and WIN. WE KNOW THIS BECAUSE HE'S DONE IT FOR YEARS.
Buzz's record stands for itself. The guy who has taken us to the NCAA tournament EVERY YEAR, 2 sweet 16s, an elite 8, and continually rakes in highly rated recruits (EVEN A BIG THIS YEAR!) has EARNED some slack, and DESERVES the benefit of the doubt, and not the tsunami of overwrought, PATHETIC, concern trolling bulls*** masquerading as some sort of referendum on his coaching and the state of the season after the THIRD F***ING game.
Be better fans, please. And for f***'s sake, get some sort of grip on history and some perspective.
+1000....well said Lab. A disappointing game for sure, but the sky is not falling. Buzz will get it right with the lineup/team by conference play.
Testify.
Quote from: lab_warrior on November 17, 2013, 11:35:18 AM
Pretty staggering, the collective trolling, lobotimization, and flat out idiocy that has occurred on this board, game 3 of the season.
We played poorly, we were coached poorly. We lost badly.
But seriously, GET SOME F***ING PERSPECTIVE. Sigh...welcome back, chicken little brigade--it's like you haven't watched ANY Marquette basketball over the past 5-6 seasons--have you? Hell, that's why the checklist may be one of the best posts ever on Scoop. That stuff happens, without fail, EVERY SEASON. So calm down.
The same folks who beg and plead to pay Buzz more, and wet themselves out of fear over every article written about Texas basketball, strangely are the some of the same folks burying the guy over A SINGLE GAME in November. Would you rather MU have beaten Butler last November, or in March? (I hope that folks know that's a rhetorical question, because NO ONE with any sanity would answer the former.) So enough with the diaper-baby rants about a loss in November being "A BIG DEAL." Games in March are BIG DEALS, because when a team loses them, the season is OVER (they also happen to be nationally televised!). Games like Saturday's, well, it was rough on the eyeballs, but we'll play ~25+ more, starting Thursday. And OH NOES, the committee will arbitrarily "seed" us somewhere in a tournament completely dependent upon matchups and preparation.
Some of Buzz's moves should be criticized from this game. But get serious--we all know his early season strategy of playing upperclassmen, despite freshmen who ultimately will be better players. WE KNOW THIS--HE'S DONE IT FOR YEARS. We also know the guy will experiment, tweak the lineups, figure out which groups of players execute well together, calibrate different lineups for opponents, and WIN. WE KNOW THIS BECAUSE HE'S DONE IT FOR YEARS.
Buzz's record stands for itself. The guy who has taken us to the NCAA tournament EVERY YEAR, 2 sweet 16s, an elite 8, and continually rakes in highly rated recruits (EVEN A BIG THIS YEAR!) has EARNED some slack, and DESERVES the benefit of the doubt, and not the tsunami of overwrought, PATHETIC, concern trolling bulls*** masquerading as some sort of referendum on his coaching and the state of the season after the THIRD F***ING game.
Correct for the most part. We know DG, JWill, Mayo, etc. all just had their worst games at the same time and it's unlikely to happen again. We think Jake's minutes will go down as we get to the heart of the schedule.
But, the difference is that we have seen Derrick enough to know that he's not gonna be someone else. PG will continue to be a problem.
So, when can the inmates 'pect a turnaround?
Would you kindly post this on the Scout board too! :'(
Where?
Quote from: lab_warrior on November 17, 2013, 11:35:18 AM
Pretty staggering, the collective trolling, lobotimization, and flat out idiocy that has occurred on this board, game 3 of the season.
We played poorly, we were coached poorly. We lost badly.
But seriously, GET SOME F***ING PERSPECTIVE. Sigh...welcome back, chicken little brigade--it's like you haven't watched ANY Marquette basketball over the past 5-6 seasons--have you? Hell, that's why the checklist may be one of the best posts ever on Scoop. That stuff happens, without fail, EVERY SEASON. So calm down.
The same folks who beg and plead to pay Buzz more, and wet themselves out of fear over every article written about Texas basketball, strangely are the some of the same folks burying the guy over A SINGLE GAME in November. Would you rather MU have beaten Butler last November, or in March? (I hope that folks know that's a rhetorical question, because NO ONE with any sanity would answer the former.) So enough with the diaper-baby rants about a loss in November being "A BIG DEAL." Games in March are BIG DEALS, because when a team loses them, the season is OVER (they also happen to be nationally televised!). Games like Saturday's, well, it was rough on the eyeballs, but we'll play ~25+ more, starting Thursday. And OH NOES, the committee will arbitrarily "seed" us somewhere in a tournament completely dependent upon matchups and preparation.
Some of Buzz's moves should be criticized from this game. But get serious--we all know his early season strategy of playing upperclassmen, despite freshmen who ultimately will be better players. WE KNOW THIS--HE'S DONE IT FOR YEARS. We also know the guy will experiment, tweak the lineups, figure out which groups of players execute well together, calibrate different lineups for opponents, and WIN. WE KNOW THIS BECAUSE HE'S DONE IT FOR YEARS.
Buzz's record stands for itself. The guy who has taken us to the NCAA tournament EVERY YEAR, 2 sweet 16s, an elite 8, and continually rakes in highly rated recruits (EVEN A BIG THIS YEAR!) has EARNED some slack, and DESERVES the benefit of the doubt, and not the tsunami of overwrought, PATHETIC, concern trolling bulls*** masquerading as some sort of referendum on his coaching and the state of the season after the THIRD F***ING game.
Be better fans, please. And for f***'s sake, get some sort of grip on history and some perspective.
Last year's team, with its last second wins and narrow escapes, is not likely to repeat itself this year, and we have a less talented team to boot (and the best talent we have are generally freshmen except for Gardner, Wilson and perhaps Mayo). We got very lucky last year, just a few wrong things happen instead of right and it would have been a disappointing season, but we probably would've retained Vander. Thanks to the heroics and our solid preseason ranking this year, we are a marked team instead of the underdog. Combine that with the fact that we have had some performances in the last several games (going back to last year) that just flat-out stunk, and I don't think we should have the same optimism we've had in Buzz past years.
Quote from: statnik on November 17, 2013, 09:05:23 PM
Last year's team, with its last second wins and narrow escapes, is not likely to repeat itself this year, and we have a less talented team to boot (and the best talent we have are generally freshmen except for Gardner, Wilson and perhaps Mayo). We got very lucky last year, just a few wrong things happen instead of right and it would have been a disappointing season, but we probably would've retained Vander. Thanks to the heroics and our solid preseason ranking this year, we are a marked team instead of the underdog. Combine that with the fact that we have had some performances in the last several games (going back to last year) that just flat-out stunk, and I don't think we should have the same optimism we've had in Buzz past years.
I reject that last year's team was unusually lucky. We won a few games we could have lost and lost a couple we could have won. Sounds suspiciously like sports to me.
Vander worked hard to make himself a better player, and because of that, he was able to make "lucky" last-second shots against St. John's and Davidson. Junior had 'nads the size of canteloupes and because of that, he had the courage to take -- and make -- that shot against UConn.
In sports, and in life, one usually makes one's own luck, be it good luck or bad luck.
My only reason for lack of optimism this season is that I do not see even a decent PG in the house. I don't want it to seem that I believe Derrick is the only reason we went belly-up against OSU or that we almost laid a giant egg against Southern. But the PG is the tone-setter in college basketball. Even after Vander got very good, we always played better when Junior had his better games. Look at some of our best wins during Junior's soph, jr and sr seasons -- he was a catalyst.
If one would try to argue that, at this point his third year in the program, we didn't know Junior could be the catalyst, I would say that's totally untrue. He had an enormous game to beat West Virginia in the previous year's Big East tourney, a win we had to have to make the NCAAs. Then, in the amazing win over Syracuse that put us in the Sweet 16, he had 9 points, 3 assists, hit all his FTs and just ran the team beautifully.
We had reason to believe he could be an effective PG at this level. Not a star, not even a Diener, but effective. We had reason to believe he could drive and dish, reason to believe he could make a few shots when the team needed them, reason to believe he wouldn't brick crucial FTs.
Has Derrick Wilson shown a shred of evidence that he can do
any of those things, let alone all three?
We weren't overly lucky last year. We had one of the better PGs in the conference and one of the top 25 SGs in the entire country. Now, we have Derrick Wilson and Jake Thomas.
That's why I'm not overly optimistic.
I hope like heck they prove me wrong, but I fear they won't.
Quote from: MU82 on November 17, 2013, 09:37:46 PM
I reject that last year's team was unusually lucky. We won a few games we could have lost and lost a couple we could have won. Sounds suspiciously like sports to me.
Well, Ken Pomeroy did rank us 10th of 347 D1 teams in terms of luck. :D
Quote from: MU82 on November 17, 2013, 09:37:46 PM
Vander worked hard to make himself a better player, and because of that, he was able to make "lucky" last-second shots against St. John's and Davidson. Junior had 'nads the size of canteloupes and because of that, he had the courage to take -- and make -- that shot against UConn.
In sports, and in life, one usually makes one's own luck, be it good luck or bad luck.
My only reason for lack of optimism this season is that I do not see even a decent PG in the house. I don't want it to seem that I believe Derrick is the only reason we went belly-up against OSU or that we almost laid a giant egg against Southern. But the PG is the tone-setter in college basketball. Even after Vander got very good, we always played better when Junior had his better games. Look at some of our best wins during Junior's soph, jr and sr seasons -- he was a catalyst.
If one would try to argue that, at this point his third year in the program, we didn't know Junior could be the catalyst, I would say that's totally untrue. He had an enormous game to beat West Virginia in the previous year's Big East tourney, a win we had to have to make the NCAAs. Then, in the amazing win over Syracuse that put us in the Sweet 16, he had 9 points, 3 assists, hit all his FTs and just ran the team beautifully.
We had reason to believe he could be an effective PG at this level. Not a star, not even a Diener, but effective. We had reason to believe he could drive and dish, reason to believe he could make a few shots when the team needed them, reason to believe he wouldn't brick crucial FTs.
Has Derrick Wilson shown a shred of evidence that he can do any of those things, let alone all three?
We weren't overly lucky last year. We had one of the better PGs in the conference and one of the top 25 SGs in the entire country. Now, we have Derrick Wilson and Jake Thomas.
That's why I'm not overly optimistic.
I hope like heck they prove me wrong, but I fear they won't.
One other consideration I'll add to your comments:
Junior Cadougan was ranked 47th in the 2009 RSCI.
Vander Blue was ranked 48th in the 2010 RSCI.
Derrick Wilson, Jake Thomas and John Dawson were as far as I can tell in nobody's top 100, nor in Rival's top 150.
I know the popular thing to do around here is to hand-wave away all rankings and declare them worthless. As if any player can improve to any level with the right amount of hard work and Buzz's coaching magic pixie dust, as proven by whatever exception-of-the-day one wishes to use.
But if we look back, our PGs of the recent past have included:
#47 RSCI Junior Cadougan
#36 RCSI Dominic James
#40 RSCI Travis Diener
Buzz should have made a top 50 point guard his #1 priority in the 2012 class--a guy who could play 10-15 mpg backing up Cadougan last year, and been ready to step up from day one this year.
Quote from: The Equalizer on November 17, 2013, 10:13:39 PM
Well, Ken Pomeroy did rank us 10th of 347 D1 teams in terms of luck. :D
Yes, and Ken Pomeroy also ranks Wisconsin No. 1 most seasons!
One other consideration I'll add to your comments:
Junior Cadougan was ranked 47th in the 2009 RSCI.
Vander Blue was ranked 48th in the 2010 RSCI.
Derrick Wilson, Jake Thomas and John Dawson were as far as I can tell in nobody's top 100, nor in Rival's top 150.
I know the popular thing to do around here is to hand-wave away all rankings and declare them worthless. As if any player can improve to any level with the right amount of hard work and Buzz's coaching magic pixie dust, as proven by whatever exception-of-the-day one wishes to use.
But if we look back, our PGs of the recent past have included:
#47 RSCI Junior Cadougan
#36 RCSI Dominic James
#40 RSCI Travis Diener
Buzz should have made a top 50 point guard his #1 priority in the 2012 class--a guy who could play 10-15 mpg backing up Cadougan last year, and been ready to step up from day one this year.
Excellent point, Equalizer.
Just because one wishes Buzz had done this, it doesn't suggest disdain for Buzz. I love the guy and am thrilled he's our coach and have said so hundreds of times. But, like the rest of us, he isn't perfect, and this was one of the few areas he messed up.
It's big-time, high-major, championship-aspirations college basketball. You gotta have a good PG.
Quote from: MU82 on November 17, 2013, 09:37:46 PM
I reject that last year's team was unusually lucky. We won a few games we could have lost and lost a couple we could have won. Sounds suspiciously like sports to me.
Vander worked hard to make himself a better player, and because of that, he was able to make "lucky" last-second shots against St. John's and Davidson. Junior had 'nads the size of canteloupes and because of that, he had the courage to take -- and make -- that shot against UConn.
In sports, and in life, one usually makes one's own luck, be it good luck or bad luck.
My only reason for lack of optimism this season is that I do not see even a decent PG in the house. I don't want it to seem that I believe Derrick is the only reason we went belly-up against OSU or that we almost laid a giant egg against Southern. But the PG is the tone-setter in college basketball. Even after Vander got very good, we always played better when Junior had his better games. Look at some of our best wins during Junior's soph, jr and sr seasons -- he was a catalyst.
If one would try to argue that, at this point his third year in the program, we didn't know Junior could be the catalyst, I would say that's totally untrue. He had an enormous game to beat West Virginia in the previous year's Big East tourney, a win we had to have to make the NCAAs. Then, in the amazing win over Syracuse that put us in the Sweet 16, he had 9 points, 3 assists, hit all his FTs and just ran the team beautifully.
We had reason to believe he could be an effective PG at this level. Not a star, not even a Diener, but effective. We had reason to believe he could drive and dish, reason to believe he could make a few shots when the team needed them, reason to believe he wouldn't brick crucial FTs.
Has Derrick Wilson shown a shred of evidence that he can do any of those things, let alone all three?
We weren't overly lucky last year. We had one of the better PGs in the conference and one of the top 25 SGs in the entire country. Now, we have Derrick Wilson and Jake Thomas.
That's why I'm not overly optimistic.
I hope like heck they prove me wrong, but I fear they won't.
Thank you for stating it much better than I.
Quote from: brandx on November 17, 2013, 11:26:18 PM
Thank you for stating it much better than I.
You're welcome ... and now I'm going to let it rest about Derrick.
I've made my point, right or wrong. I'm going to wait until at least after the next game to revisit it.
Perspective is this: We don't have the perimeter players that can replace Junior and Vander. So this is a DIFFERENT situation from before and I think the Chicken Little-ing, though frowned upon, has some merit. Supporting the case are: 1) shooting 18.9% on our HOME floor and 2) the backourt shot a collective 4-31, again on our home floor.
Bad shooting night? Maybe.
Tough OSU defense? Sure.
But you don't win BE games that way.
I guess UNC (http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=400502680) fans can chant with us that the "sky is falling..."
Just as predictable as the "chicken little" brigade is the brigade angrily protesting them.
We can check that one off the list, too.
Quote from: The Equalizer on November 17, 2013, 10:13:39 PM
Buzz should have made a top 50 point guard his #1 priority in the 2012 class--a guy who could play 10-15 mpg backing up Cadougan last year, and been ready to step up from day one this year.
would love to know the specifics of how this played out...buzz has gone on record talking about wanting many pg's on his team...not sure why it didn't work out, but i don't think it's a coincidence that we ended up with 2 in this year's class, and at least 1 more in the near future. they went without d. wilson for a brief time against OSU and the offense looked out of sorts and he quickly got him back in. it will be interesting to see how buzz uses his freshmen for the remainder of the year, and i'm sure much of that depends on the success of the team/post season expectations.
Quote from: avid1010 on November 18, 2013, 09:18:31 AM
would love to know the specifics of how this played out...buzz has gone on record talking about wanting many pg's on his team...not sure why it didn't work out, but i don't think it's a coincidence that we ended up with 2 in this year's class, and at least 1 more in the near future. they went without d. wilson for a brief time against OSU and the offense looked out of sorts and he quickly got him back in. it will be interesting to see how buzz uses his freshmen for the remainder of the year, and i'm sure much of that depends on the success of the team/post season expectations.
You do see the irony......
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on November 18, 2013, 08:09:46 AM
Just as predictable as the "chicken little" brigade is the brigade angrily protesting them.
We can check that one off the list, too.
There are definitely the self-righteous posters who eagerly anticipate the first negative criticism so they can claim ultimate Warrior loyalty and put down everyone else as chicken littles.
They are just as obnoxious as the true chicken littles.
Quote from: brandx on November 17, 2013, 06:13:55 PM
Correct for the most part. We know DG, JWill, Mayo, etc. all just had their worst games at the same time and it's unlikely to happen again. We think Jake's minutes will go down as we get to the heart of the schedule.
But, the difference is that we have seen Derrick enough to know that he's not gonna be someone else. PG will continue to be a problem.
Agree...but I think the Derrick/PG issue is pretty much the same as the Jake/SG issue. I suspect Dawson and maybe Todd will gradually get more of Derrick's minutes, just like I belive Todd, Juan and maybe JJJ will get more of Jake's SG minutes. As long as Derrick and Jake end up where they belong - in a true rotation with Dawson, Todd, Juan and JJJ - we should be fine. If they continue to get 25-35+ minutes, we will continue to struggle.
I want to go on record that we are good. We did not play that bad Saturday. We missed a lot of good shots. Mayo shot horribly, but I thought he played well and I thought it was quite clear that Buzz wants him taking a lot of shots. Just one of those days, IMO. Also, people pining for Junior Cadougan are laughable. Derrick is fine. This was basically his first start of any substance (Wisconsin game was a surprise start). Give him time to gain some confidence. How was The great Junior his first few games? How about Diener? Acker? Cubes? Wilson is a better athlete than any of them. He's never gonna be a great shooter, but he's fine.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on November 18, 2013, 04:18:18 PM
I want to go on record that we are good. We did not play that bad Saturday. We missed a lot of good shots. Mayo shot horribly, but I thought he played well and I thought it was quite clear that Buzz wants him taking a lot of shots. Just one of those days, IMO. Also, people pining for Junior Cadougan are laughable. Derrick is fine. This was basically his first start of any substance (Wisconsin game was a surprise start). Give him time to gain some confidence. How was The great Junior his first few games? How about Diener? Acker? Cubes? Wilson is a better athlete than any of them. He's never gonna be a great shooter, but he's fine.
Agree on Mayo. Some fans have been critical of his game on Saturday, but in reality he did what he should have done -- when his outside shots weren't falling, he went inside instead. The main problem was that the entire defense was able to collapse on him because nobody else was shooting well either. And frankly, many of his wild inside shots almost fell, which could have made it a much closer game.
I also agree that Derrick isn't as bad as many claim. I don't think his upside is quite as good as Junior's due to his weak shooting, but he makes up for some of that with better defense. I think the ideal will be to develop Dawson into a solid backup, and use him when we need a bit more offense.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on November 18, 2013, 04:18:18 PM
I want to go on record that we are good. We did not play that bad Saturday. We missed a lot of good shots. Mayo shot horribly, but I thought he played well and I thought it was quite clear that Buzz wants him taking a lot of shots. Just one of those days, IMO. Also, people pining for Junior Cadougan are laughable. Derrick is fine. This was basically his first start of any substance (Wisconsin game was a surprise start). Give him time to gain some confidence. How was The great Junior his first few games? How about Diener? Acker? Cubes? Wilson is a better athlete than any of them. He's never gonna be a great shooter, but he's fine.
Agree with the direction of this. I thought going in that tOSU was a bad matchup and it was. A complete, teamwide inability to make anything was more to blame than DeWilson. 2 turnovers in 38 minutes. Guarded by Craft. If MU shoots 40 % of their layups/uncontested shots, MU wins. MU killed them on the boards. Held them to the low 50's. But nothing fell. Layups, more layups, good looks, breakaway layups, open jumpers.....nada. So, more assertive offense from our skilled offensive players. See some shots go in.
I believe, with every fiber of my being, that if the rest of the team performs to its ability, plays with passion and intensity on offense, plays defense like it did in the first half against the Buckeyes, that this is an elite 8 team with DeWilson at the point, only turning the ball over 2x in 38 minutes.
One more thing. This wasn't even close to the worst game of the Buzz Williams era. I'm not sure this is even top 5. The Vandy game was way worse. We were out of that game in the first 5 minutes.
Quote from: The Equalizer on November 17, 2013, 10:13:39 PM
Buzz should have made a top 50 point guard his #1 priority in the 2012 class--a guy who could play 10-15 mpg backing up Cadougan last year, and been ready to step up from day one this year.
He did in 2013 ... Duane Wilson. Then he broke his foot and it out (similar to Junior his Freshman year).
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on November 18, 2013, 04:18:18 PM
I want to go on record that we are good. We did not play that bad Saturday. We missed a lot of good shots. Mayo shot horribly, but I thought he played well and I thought it was quite clear that Buzz wants him taking a lot of shots. Just one of those days, IMO. Also, people pining for Junior Cadougan are laughable. Derrick is fine. This was basically his first start of any substance (Wisconsin game was a surprise start). Give him time to gain some confidence. How was The great Junior his first few games? How about Diener? Acker? Cubes? Wilson is a better athlete than any of them. He's never gonna be a great shooter, but he's fine.
I second that, Nightmare. Every hunting dog is gun shy its first time out. This team will be fine. I cannot wait to read this board come March.
Quote from: Bleuteaux on November 18, 2013, 03:52:00 PM
There are definitely the self-righteous posters who eagerly anticipate the first negative criticism so they can claim ultimate Warrior loyalty and put down everyone else as chicken littles.
I guess it depends on what you mean by negative criticism. I would guess the median age of this board is above thirty years old. If you are saying those older people slamming teens and young twenty something's who represent our University is equal to them getting slammed I cannot agree.
If you are talking about slamming the coaching staff... then I agree.
Quote from: Heisenberg on November 18, 2013, 05:39:13 PM
He did in 2013 ... Duane Wilson. Then he broke his foot and it out (similar to Junior his Freshman year).
And my point was that he should have done it in
2012, so he could back up Cadougan for 10-15 mpg for a year, then step up to a starting role.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on November 18, 2013, 04:18:18 PM
I want to go on record that we are good. We did not play that bad Saturday. We missed a lot of good shots. Mayo shot horribly, but I thought he played well and I thought it was quite clear that Buzz wants him taking a lot of shots. Just one of those days, IMO. Also, people pining for Junior Cadougan are laughable. Derrick is fine. This was basically his first start of any substance (Wisconsin game was a surprise start). Give him time to gain some confidence. How was The great Junior his first few games? How about Diener? Acker? Cubes? Wilson is a better athlete than any of them. He's never gonna be a great shooter, but he's fine.
+2
I agree with PRN and keefe. We played a bad 7 minutes, starting with the Shannon Scott steal and dunk. Ohio State was up 27-23 and we were very much in it. They went on a 13-3 run and effectively put the game away.
2010: Lost every big non-conference game we played in (Duke & Gonzaga in CBE, @ Vandy, Wisconsin) and made Sweet 16
2011: Blown out by Vanderbilt (Sweet 16, Big East Runners-up)
2012: Blown out by Florida (Elite 8, Big East Champions)
2013: Blown out by Ohio State
Are we noticing a pattern yet?
You can neither win nor lose a season before Christmas.
Quote from: Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup on November 19, 2013, 07:40:41 AM
2010: Lost every big non-conference game we played in (Duke & Gonzaga in CBE, @ Vandy, Wisconsin) and made Sweet 16
2011: Blown out by Vanderbilt (Sweet 16, Big East Runners-up)
2012: Blown out by Florida (Elite 8, Big East Champions)
2013: Blown out by Ohio State
Are we noticing a pattern yet?
You can neither win nor lose a season before Christmas.
This is, of course, right. But so is this (as the mutual-fund companies say): Past performance is not an indication of future results.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on November 18, 2013, 04:18:18 PM
I want to go on record that we are good. We did not play that bad Saturday. We missed a lot of good shots. Mayo shot horribly, but I thought he played well and I thought it was quite clear that Buzz wants him taking a lot of shots. Just one of those days, IMO. Also, people pining for Junior Cadougan are laughable. Derrick is fine. This was basically his first start of any substance (Wisconsin game was a surprise start). Give him time to gain some confidence. How was The great Junior his first few games? How about Diener? Acker? Cubes? Wilson is a better athlete than any of them. He's never gonna be a great shooter, but he's fine.
Except after we took a 21-19 lead in second half Ohio St was repeatedly allowed to take the ball to the basket and they quickly jumped to an 8 point lead. The offense struggled all day, but in the end it was that defensive lapse that killed us.
I don't like how we lost. Only scoring 35 on your home court does not feel good. However, I do think this loss is good for us. It puts the chip back on our shoulder.
Quote from: Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup on November 19, 2013, 07:40:41 AM
2010: Lost every big non-conference game we played in (Duke & Gonzaga in CBE, @ Vandy, Wisconsin) and made Sweet 16
2011: Blown out by Vanderbilt (Sweet 16, Big East Runners-up)
2012: Blown out by Florida (Elite 8, Big East Champions)
2013: Blown out by Ohio State
Are we noticing a pattern yet?
You can neither win nor lose a season before Christmas.
Agreed on the pattern and on the conclusion.
That said, in previous seasons, we had more opportunities to make up for early losses in a stronger BE, with opponents like UL, Cuse, Pitt, ND and UConn. After the four early losses you mentioned in the 2010-11 season, we still had ELEVEN games against ranked opponents during the BE regular season and tournament. We have added three very respectable teams to the conference, but the BE isn't what it used to be so the margin for early season losses is decreasing.
I still think we make the dance and have a good shot for a nice run. Just wanted to point out that this pattern might not always work like it has in the past....
Quote from: GooooMarquette on November 19, 2013, 01:01:42 PM
Agreed on the pattern and on the conclusion.
That said, in previous seasons, we had more opportunities to make up for early losses in a stronger BE, with opponents like UL, Cuse, Pitt, ND and UConn. After the four early losses you mentioned in the 2010-11 season, we still had ELEVEN games against ranked opponents during the BE regular season and tournament. We have added three very respectable teams to the conference, but the BE isn't what it used to be so the margin for early season losses is decreasing.
I still think we make the dance and have a good shot for a nice run. Just wanted to point out that this pattern might not always work like it has in the past....
So he prevailing philosophy/wisdom is that we should continue to lose these big out of conference early season games, because that means we will win big in post season? I get it, so why even try, right?
Quote from: willie warrior on November 19, 2013, 01:18:31 PM
So he prevailing philosophy/wisdom is that we should continue to lose these big out of conference early season games, because that means we will win big in post season? I get it, so why even try, right?
No, the prevailing wisdom is that early season losses don't necessarily mean the season is over. Hope you can see the difference.
Quote from: willie warrior on November 19, 2013, 01:18:31 PM
So he prevailing philosophy/wisdom is that we should continue to lose these big out of conference early season games, because that means we will win big in post season? I get it, so why even try, right?
No, that's not the prevailing philosophy/wisdom, that's your (and others) straw man argument.
The difference is the previous three years did not have the worst backcourt in basketball history...
Quote from: Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup on November 19, 2013, 07:40:41 AM
2010: Lost every big non-conference game we played in (Duke & Gonzaga in CBE, @ Vandy, Wisconsin) and made Sweet 16
2011: Blown out by Vanderbilt (Sweet 16, Big East Runners-up)
2012: Blown out by Florida (Elite 8, Big East Champions)
2013: Blown out by Ohio State
Are we noticing a pattern yet?
You can neither win nor lose a season before Christmas.
Quote from: madtownwarrior on November 19, 2013, 02:52:20 PM
The difference is the previous three years did not have the worst backcourt in basketball history...
Oh sweet baby Jesus, give it a rest already.
or you may look at it this way, with the current back court performance, it may look like like this:
2010: Lost every big non-conference game we played in (Duke & Gonzaga in CBE, @ Vandy, Wisconsin) and made Sweet 16
2011: Blown out by Vanderbilt (Sweet 16, Big East Runners-up)
2012: Blown out by Florida (Elite 8, Big East Champions)
2013: Blown out by Ohio State, Blown out by ASU, Blown out by Wisconsin, Blown out by Creighton, Blown out by Georgetown, Blown out by St John's (NIT Second Round)
Quote from: madtownwarrior on November 19, 2013, 02:57:23 PM
or you may look at it this way, with the current back court performance, it may look like like this:
2010: Lost every big non-conference game we played in (Duke & Gonzaga in CBE, @ Vandy, Wisconsin) and made Sweet 16
2011: Blown out by Vanderbilt (Sweet 16, Big East Runners-up)
2012: Blown out by Florida (Elite 8, Big East Champions)
2013: Blown out by Ohio State, Blown out by ASU, Blown out by Wisconsin, Blown out by Creighton, Blown out by Georgetown, Blown out by St John's (NIT Second Round)
Very consistent!
Notre Dame won the mythical football championship in 1966, 1977 and 1988. ND faithful took it as a given that it was destined to win another in 1999.
Unfortunately, the '99 squad then had to start playing games and Bob Davie led his gallant lads to a 5-7 record. And it's now been 25 long years since that last pretend championship.
Patterns don't automatically repeat. That's not how sports -- or real life -- works.
I'm not saying Marquette's recent pattern can't or won't repeat. I'm just saying that we shouldn't necessarily expect something to happen just because it did the last few years.
Quote from: MU82 on November 19, 2013, 03:11:11 PM
Notre Dame won the mythical football championship in 1966, 1977 and 1988. ND faithful took it as a given that it was destined to win another in 1999.
Unfortunately, the '99 squad then had to start playing games and Bob Davie led his gallant lads to a 5-7 record. And it's now been 25 long years since that last pretend championship.
Patterns don't automatically repeat. That's not how sports -- or real life -- works.
I'm not saying Marquette's recent pattern can't or won't repeat. I'm just saying that we shouldn't necessarily expect something to happen just because it did the last few years.
ND obviously didn't have the same coach during that time frame.
Quote from: MU82 on November 19, 2013, 03:11:11 PM
Notre Dame won the mythical football championship in 1966, 1977 and 1988. ND faithful took it as a given that it was destined to win another in 1999.
Unfortunately, the '99 squad then had to start playing games and Bob Davie led his gallant lads to a 5-7 record. And it's now been 25 long years since that last pretend championship.
Patterns don't automatically repeat. That's not how sports -- or real life -- works.
I'm not saying Marquette's recent pattern can't or won't repeat. I'm just saying that we shouldn't necessarily expect something to happen just because it did the last few years.
C'mon 82, you're too smart to make such an absurd analogy. Marquette's "pattern" is a real one. Similar losses, similar players, same coach, similar results. Notre Dame's "pattern" is no such thing. It's merely a coincidence that some moronic numerologist might find interesting.
Quote from: MU82 on November 19, 2013, 03:11:11 PM
Notre Dame won the mythical football championship in 1966, 1977 and 1988. ND faithful took it as a given that it was destined to win another in 1999.
Unfortunately, the '99 squad then had to start playing games and Bob Davie led his gallant lads to a 5-7 record. And it's now been 25 long years since that last pretend championship.
Patterns don't automatically repeat. That's not how sports -- or real life -- works.
I'm not saying Marquette's recent pattern can't or won't repeat. I'm just saying that we shouldn't necessarily expect something to happen just because it did the last few years.
Buzz is still the coach. Buzz installs defense first and offense later. For 5 years, Buzz's teams have been better late in the year than they were early, with the exception of 08-09 and DJames broken foot. I saw as good a defensive performance and as dominating a rebounding performance as a Buzz coached team has put up. I also saw a team that couldn't make a shot if their lives depended on it. The only question is whether that was a predictor or an aberration. If it is a fluke, then this team will be fine. If it is a predictor, then this year is going to be challenging.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 19, 2013, 03:23:30 PM
C'mon 82, you're too smart to make such an absurd analogy. Marquette's "pattern" is a real one. Similar losses, similar players, same coach, similar results. Notre Dame's "pattern" is no such thing. It's merely a coincidence that some moronic numerologist might find interesting.
OK, I'll take the ribbing for maybe a dopey analogy. But I would argue that we do not have similar players. I have vowed not to comment about our backcourt again at least until after the next game, but Vander, Junior, DJO, Acker, Cooby, Wes, Jerel and Dominic aren't walking through that door anytime soon ...
Quote from: MU82 on November 19, 2013, 04:08:01 PM
OK, I'll take the ribbing for maybe a dopey analogy. But I would argue that we do not have similar players. I have vowed not to comment about our backcourt again at least until after the next game, but Vander, Junior, DJO, Acker, Cooby, Wes, Jerel and Dominic aren't walking through that door anytime soon ...
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRgw21MxMG727aCgiDV_bT6f_B4k8CoPN8983qQLAjqPLmoTEMoUA)
Quote from: madtownwarrior on November 19, 2013, 02:52:20 PM
The difference is the previous three years did not have the worst backcourt in basketball history...
Neither does this year's.