Is "non-conference blowout" on there somewhere?
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 16, 2013, 02:13:06 PM
Is "non-conference blowout" on there somewhere?
you think this was bad, wait until we go to Columbus next year! Yikes!
WE STUNK !
Quote from: MUeng on November 16, 2013, 02:14:24 PM
you think this was bad, wait until we go to Columbus next year! Yikes!
Is there a buyout to get out of that one?
Spitting image of Vandy in 2011, except we scored a lot more points that game.
This game was worse, IMO.
Buzz said at the fish fry there would be ugly early season losses as he teaches the team how to play. Well he got it today.
Unfortunately there is now way to "teach" Derrick Wilson to be an offensive threat.
Meltdown mode has started...just like I thought it would.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=28543.msg329344#msg329344
Right on cue.
Season checklist
( ) Non-conference near-miss against inferior opponent (sky falls on Scoop)
( ) Non-conference stinker to inferior opponent (more sky-falling)
(x) Non-conference loss on big stage convinces board MU not ready for Big East
( ) Unmentionable conference loss
( ) Road Game we weren't supposed to win
( ) Late surge
( ) Top-half Big East Finish
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 16, 2013, 02:24:13 PM
Meltdown mode has started...just like I thought it would.
I said to a friend that the outcry here would be hilarious. I was right. I have faith in the guy that has won 7 NCAA games the last 3 years.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 16, 2013, 03:10:31 PM
I said to a friend that the outcry here would be hilarious. I was right. I have faith in the guy that has won 7 NCAA games the last 3 years.
I have faith in Buzz, too. I also realize it's only one November game against a very good opponent.
But that simply is not a high-major, conference-title-contending backcourt and it will be an issue all season. Pretending otherwise won't make it better.
IBIT, but this year's personnel will make it his most challenging yet.
I am posting in this thread b/c I just read the NYT article on the game.
The good news: the game got headline treatment and reminded me of a prior sky is falling time (citing the last home loss for MU in the thrashing by Vandy in 2011), and that season turned out ok.
The bad news: the game got headline treatment and the article called the MU streak the second longest streak behind South Dakota State, so the "paper of record" failed to give MU credit for its 40 hour reign as holder of the longest home court winning streak title.
Quote from: MU82 on November 16, 2013, 04:18:53 PMBut that simply is not a high-major, conference-title-contending backcourt and it will be an issue all season. Pretending otherwise won't make it better.
At this point last year, I'm pretty sure there were plenty who felt that Junior Cadougan and Vander Blue weren't a conference-title-contending backcourt. Yet once they adjusted to their roles of leadership after Jae and DJO left, the team settled nicely and shared the conference crown.
There's work to do, tinkering to be done, but I have seen nothing to say this backcourt can't develop into that. How much have these guys played together before? Barely at all. Three games and one legitimate test is far too soon to make any doomsday declarations.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 17, 2013, 09:40:05 AM
At this point last year, I'm pretty sure there were plenty who felt that Junior Cadougan and Vander Blue weren't a conference-title-contending backcourt. Yet once they adjusted to their roles of leadership after Jae and DJO left, the team settled nicely and shared the conference crown.
There's work to do, tinkering to be done, but I have seen nothing to say this backcourt can't develop into that. How much have these guys played together before? Barely at all. Three games and one legitimate test is far too soon to make any doomsday declarations.
AMEN.
On a side note, I am glad that people are finally starting to realize that Junior was pretty good. ::)
Too bad he got absolutely crapped on by most people on here for the last 3.5 years.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on November 17, 2013, 10:55:22 AM
AMEN.
On a side note, I am glad that people are finally starting to realize that Junior was pretty good. ::)
Too bad he got absolutely crapped on by most people on here for the last 3.5 years.
Most people here realized Junior was pretty good....that's exactly what he was, pretty good.
We haven't had an elite point guard here in some time and we have been spoiled at MU for having elite point guards many years. Buzz doesn't seem to value them as much, or perhaps does and hasn't been able to land one yet.
But yes, Jr. was a pretty good point guard.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 17, 2013, 11:43:10 AM
Most people here realized Junior was pretty good....that's exactly what he was, pretty good.
We haven't had an elite point guard here in some time and we have been spoiled at MU for having elite point guards many years. Buzz doesn't seem to value them as much, or perhaps does and hasn't been able to land one yet.
But yes, Jr. was a pretty good point guard.
I am glad we agree.
I don't agree that most people here thought Junior was pretty good, most people here thought Junior sucked, and a search (you seem to be good at those) would reveal about a 90%/10% split on negative versus positive comments. And I think that's being kind.
The issue is Buzz's loyalty to upperclassmen. Yes he was loyal to Junior but Junior was a very capable D1 PG. Now people are projecting Buzz's loyalty to Derrick Wilson. So far, Derrick Wilson has not proven to be a capable D1 PG (by fans standards albeit). If Buzz sticks with Derrick and Derrick does not dramatically improve, this may be a very disappointing .500 team.
Quote from: madtownwarrior on November 17, 2013, 02:06:28 PM
The issue is Buzz's loyalty to upperclassmen. Yes he was loyal to Junior but Junior was a very capable D1 PG. Now people are projecting Buzz's loyalty to Derrick Williams. So far, Derrick Williams has not proven to be a capable D1 PG (by fans standards albeit). If Buzz sticks with Derrick and Derrick does not dramatically improve, this may be a very disappointing .500 team.
Who's Derrick Williams?
Brain fart - way too much travel with little sleep.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 17, 2013, 02:12:19 PM
Who's Derrick Williams?
So, when Buzz says, this season, that his team isn't very good, people should believe him.
Buzz definitely tried to temper expectations at the fish fry. However, having multiple issues inbounding a ball is not an experience issue. That is on Buzz having the team ready to play. But as said, he does not value wins in November.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 17, 2013, 02:51:29 PM
So, when Buzz says, this season, that his team isn't very good, people should believe him.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 17, 2013, 09:40:05 AM
At this point last year, I'm pretty sure there were plenty who felt that Junior Cadougan and Vander Blue weren't a conference-title-contending backcourt. Yet once they adjusted to their roles of leadership after Jae and DJO left, the team settled nicely and shared the conference crown.
There's work to do, tinkering to be done, but I have seen nothing to say this backcourt can't develop into that. How much have these guys played together before? Barely at all. Three games and one legitimate test is far too soon to make any doomsday declarations.
I acknowledged your first point here in another thread; few considered Junior/Vander a conference-champion backcourt 3 games into last season. But I have seen nothing to say this backcourt can develop into anything even half as good as Junior/Vander became -- unless, of course, the freshmen grow up quickly and play to their high recruiting ranking.
I respect you too much, brew, to think you actually believe that Derrick/Jake have a prayer of being even a mediocre imitation of Junior/Vander.
Quote from: MU82 on November 17, 2013, 04:27:20 PMI respect you too much, brew, to think you actually believe that Derrick/Jake have a prayer of being even a mediocre imitation of Junior/Vander.
I don't think Derrick and Jake will become Junior and Vander. I think this is a different team.
I could see Derrick becoming a solid replacement for Junior. While JC was a solid point for us, his quality has been built into overwhelming proportions with all the DeWil hatred. As Chicos said, he was a pretty good point guard. Not great, not bad, certainly not consistent, but by and large pretty good. DeWil has shown he can drive a little (as seen yesterday) and shown he can make passes and move the ball around (as seen against the cupcakes, 10/1 A/T ratio against anyone is impressive). I don't think he'll ever be a 10 ppg/6 apg guy, but neither was Junior. I do think DeWil could average 5 ppg and 4 apg, and I think that would be pretty good, enough to keep defenses honest. And as long as guys like Mayo, Gardner, and Jamil can make good on the opportunities DeWil gives them, the offense can be good.
Jake I think is what he is. I know he's a great practice shooter, but I consider him to be a defensive gap filler. He knows what to do on defense and while not a shut-down defender can play his role. I fully expect him to give way to Mayo eventually, but I feel Mayo has to earn it by proving consistency of his own. Eventually I see Mayo getting 25 mpg and Jake getting around 10 with the freshmen filling in the gaps at the 2/3 swing spots. But so far, our defense has been fantastic and I feel Buzz is giving minutes based on that. Jake has done an adequate job in that regard and will continue to get chances for that. When it matters, I think it will be Mayo. For now, I have no problem with alternating between them to make sure that the defense, which will be the strength of the defense, is well established.
I don't think any of the freshmen are going to be a salvation, or necessarily better than what we have now. JJJ has great potential as a scorer, but until his defense catches up to Jake's he's going to get more pine than time. Dawson has definite upside, but is the classic backup quarterback. Popular with the people that don't like the starter, but not as good as the starter. And Duane...if we get similar production to Junior's injury-impeded freshman season, I think that would be more than anyone should expect at this point. I expect pretty much zero contribution from him this year.
EDIT: All that said, this is a different team. I think that Derrick could be good enough that we could have a pretty good offense as long as Jamil is willing to assert himself and guys like Juan, Steve, and Mayo can hit enough threes to loosen up the passing lanes so Wilson can feed Gardner and Otule in the post. If our defense plays all season like we did yesterday, we are going to win a ton of games. We likely won't see another defense as good as Ohio State's all year long, and that includes Bucky.
Where does the point that jake is a great practice shooter/player come from?
Quote from: chren21 on November 17, 2013, 05:14:34 PM
Where does the point that jake is a great practice shooter/player come from?
Watch him in the Pro Am, warmups, or talk to anyone who has watched him in practice. He can shoot in a vacuum, but hasn't translated that to in-game at this level.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 17, 2013, 05:23:07 PM
Watch him in the Pro Am, warmups, or talk to anyone who has watched him in practice. He can shoot in a vacuum, but hasn't translated that to in-game at this level.
Buzz needs to run some plays for him so he can get open looks. Otherwise, not going to happen
Will look super at the Y on Saturday mornin's.
Quote from: Nukem2 on November 17, 2013, 05:27:10 PM
Buzz needs to run some plays for him so he can get open looks. Otherwise, not going to happen
He had some open looks yesterday. Still didn't hit them. Until he proves otherwise, he's just a guy with a great stroke that can't knock down shots. I don't know if it's a non-evident mechanical issue, an inability to live up to the expectation of being a sharpshooter, or the yips, but I'm not convinced open looks will help.
Hey Brew. After today's weather you may want to change your sig line. The sky was falling.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on November 17, 2013, 05:50:49 PM
Hey Brew. After today's weather you may want to change your sig line. The sky was falling.
LOL...just a little precipitation, Doc ;)
Getting back to that yearly checklist....
"We always stink it up on national TV!"
Kind of nice to have avoided that crap this year.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 17, 2013, 04:59:03 PM
I don't think Derrick and Jake will become Junior and Vander. I think this is a different team.
I could see Derrick becoming a solid replacement for Junior. While JC was a solid point for us, his quality has been built into overwhelming proportions with all the DeWil hatred. As Chicos said, he was a pretty good point guard. Not great, not bad, certainly not consistent, but by and large pretty good. DeWil has shown he can drive a little (as seen yesterday) and shown he can make passes and move the ball around (as seen against the cupcakes, 10/1 A/T ratio against anyone is impressive). I don't think he'll ever be a 10 ppg/6 apg guy, but neither was Junior. I do think DeWil could average 5 ppg and 4 apg, and I think that would be pretty good, enough to keep defenses honest. And as long as guys like Mayo, Gardner, and Jamil can make good on the opportunities DeWil gives them, the offense can be good.
Jake I think is what he is. I know he's a great practice shooter, but I consider him to be a defensive gap filler. He knows what to do on defense and while not a shut-down defender can play his role. I fully expect him to give way to Mayo eventually, but I feel Mayo has to earn it by proving consistency of his own. Eventually I see Mayo getting 25 mpg and Jake getting around 10 with the freshmen filling in the gaps at the 2/3 swing spots. But so far, our defense has been fantastic and I feel Buzz is giving minutes based on that. Jake has done an adequate job in that regard and will continue to get chances for that. When it matters, I think it will be Mayo. For now, I have no problem with alternating between them to make sure that the defense, which will be the strength of the defense, is well established.
I don't think any of the freshmen are going to be a salvation, or necessarily better than what we have now. JJJ has great potential as a scorer, but until his defense catches up to Jake's he's going to get more pine than time. Dawson has definite upside, but is the classic backup quarterback. Popular with the people that don't like the starter, but not as good as the starter. And Duane...if we get similar production to Junior's injury-impeded freshman season, I think that would be more than anyone should expect at this point. I expect pretty much zero contribution from him this year.
EDIT: All that said, this is a different team. I think that Derrick could be good enough that we could have a pretty good offense as long as Jamil is willing to assert himself and guys like Juan, Steve, and Mayo can hit enough threes to loosen up the passing lanes so Wilson can feed Gardner and Otule in the post. If our defense plays all season like we did yesterday, we are going to win a ton of games. We likely won't see another defense as good as Ohio State's all year long, and that includes Bucky.
OK, brew, you and I will have to agree to disagree on Derrick Wilson's ceiling.
For the record, I hope you are right and I am wrong.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 17, 2013, 04:59:03 PM
I do think DeWil could average 5 ppg and 4 apg, and I think that would be pretty good, enough to keep defenses honest.
DeWil might be able to survive or thrive on an uber-talented scoring team. This isn't that team. He is our PG, and in the second half OSU didn't feel it was particularly important to pay attention to him when he was 20 feet from the basket WITH the ball! Have you ever seen that before with a point guard?
As for Jake Thomas, running him off of screens isn't going to do the trick. He needs a guard who will penetrate and then kick the ball out to him or have a big on the blocks kick it out to him so he receives that pass squared up to the hoop and can launch immediately. He is not effective running off of screens, catching the ball stopping, squaring and shooting. He takes a long time to do that and he still seems rushed. So basically, you can neutralize him if you keep someone on him. And it is easy to keep someone on him when you don't have to respect the offense of the PG.
So, in summation, in certain situations, these guards may be OK, but they do not complement one another at all, as each's weakness on the offensive end exacerbates the weakness of the other.
Quote from: CTWarrior on November 18, 2013, 07:50:38 AM
DeWil might be able to survive or thrive on an uber-talented scoring team. This isn't that team. He is our PG, and in the second half OSU didn't feel it was particularly important to pay attention to him when he was 20 feet from the basket WITH the ball! Have you ever seen that before with a point guard?
As for Jake Thomas, running him off of screens isn't going to do the trick. He needs a guard who will penetrate and then kick the ball out to him or have a big on the blocks kick it out to him so he receives that pass squared up to the hoop and can launch immediately. He is not effective running off of screens, catching the ball stopping, squaring and shooting. He takes a long time to do that and he still seems rushed. So basically, you can neutralize him if you keep someone on him. And it is easy to keep someone on him when you don't have to respect the offense of the PG.
So, in summation, in certain situations, these guards may be OK, but they do not complement one another at all, as each's weakness on the offensive end exacerbates the weakness of the other.
Good, thoughtful analysis that makes a lot of sense to me (I suppose that is why I think it is good)
Quote from: CTWarrior on November 18, 2013, 07:50:38 AM
DeWil might be able to survive or thrive on an uber-talented scoring team. This isn't that team. He is our PG, and in the second half OSU didn't feel it was particularly important to pay attention to him when he was 20 feet from the basket WITH the ball! Have you ever seen that before with a point guard?
As for Jake Thomas, running him off of screens isn't going to do the trick. He needs a guard who will penetrate and then kick the ball out to him or have a big on the blocks kick it out to him so he receives that pass squared up to the hoop and can launch immediately. He is not effective running off of screens, catching the ball stopping, squaring and shooting. He takes a long time to do that and he still seems rushed. So basically, you can neutralize him if you keep someone on him. And it is easy to keep someone on him when you don't have to respect the offense of the PG.
So, in summation, in certain situations, these guards may be OK, but they do not complement one another at all, as each's weakness on the offensive end exacerbates the weakness of the other.
What about Jake at the point? Can't sag off a sniper, right?
Quote from: Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup on November 16, 2013, 02:44:47 PM
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=28543.msg329344#msg329344
Right on cue.
Season checklist
( ) Non-conference near-miss against inferior opponent (sky falls on Scoop)
( ) Non-conference stinker to inferior opponent (more sky-falling)
(x) Non-conference loss on big stage convinces board MU not ready for Big East
( ) Unmentionable conference loss
( ) Road Game we weren't supposed to win
( ) Late surge
( ) Top-half Big East Finish
This checklist should be in the left navigation along with the SotG.
Quote from: CTWarrior on November 18, 2013, 07:50:38 AM
DeWil might be able to survive or thrive on an uber-talented scoring team. This isn't that team. He is our PG, and in the second half OSU didn't feel it was particularly important to pay attention to him when he was 20 feet from the basket WITH the ball! Have you ever seen that before with a point guard?
As for Jake Thomas, running him off of screens isn't going to do the trick. He needs a guard who will penetrate and then kick the ball out to him or have a big on the blocks kick it out to him so he receives that pass squared up to the hoop and can launch immediately. He is not effective running off of screens, catching the ball stopping, squaring and shooting. He takes a long time to do that and he still seems rushed. So basically, you can neutralize him if you keep someone on him. And it is easy to keep someone on him when you don't have to respect the offense of the PG.
So, in summation, in certain situations, these guards may be OK, but they do not complement one another at all, as each's weakness on the offensive end exacerbates the weakness of the other.
On the defensive end, they do compliment each other. I have no problem with them both starting, along with Otule starting to set a defensive tone. However, I agree with you that on the offensive end having both in together can be problematic.
I do think that we will see Mayo start to take more of the minutes as the season goes on, and I would like to see Dawson develop into the kind of guy that can play 10 mpg against high-major competition. Of course, thus far Dawson has shown no greater offensive acumen than Derrick, and there's a definite case that he has shown less. (***Cue that Nebraska guy coming in kicking and screaming***)
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 18, 2013, 09:19:46 AM
On the defensive end, they do compliment each other. I have no problem with them both starting, along with Otule starting to set a defensive tone. However, I agree with you that on the offensive end having both in together can be problematic.
I do think that we will see Mayo start to take more of the minutes as the season goes on, and I would like to see Dawson develop into the kind of guy that can play 10 mpg against high-major competition. Of course, thus far Dawson has shown no greater offensive acumen than Derrick, and there's a definite case that he has shown less. (***Cue that Nebraska guy coming in kicking and screaming***)
I agree that Thomas is the guy whose minutes are going to have to get reduced. We have several options there. I don't know what the argument is that Dawson has shown less offensive acumen than DWil, but I haven't seen Dawson (or JJJ) near enough to have much of an opinion about him one way or another. I'd have given him some minutes against Ohio State to see if his presence would make their defense more honest, but I have confidence Buzz knows what he is doing.
Mayo couldn't hit the broad side of a barn Saturday, and often seems to playing a different offense than everyone else, but he is the one guard who we know can create space for himself and generate offense. If wae have a successful season, I think he will be an integral part of it.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 17, 2013, 05:36:01 PM
He had some open looks yesterday. Still didn't hit them. Until he proves otherwise, he's just a guy with a great stroke that can't knock down shots. I don't know if it's a non-evident mechanical issue, an inability to live up to the expectation of being a sharpshooter, or the yips, but I'm not convinced open looks will help.
(http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view6/2402990/you-have-no-marbles-o.gif)