1. Our backcourt is crucial. Somebody needs to step up besides Todd.
2. Freshmen are freshmen. Expecting early production is always problematic.
3. Don't be stupid and start talking about practicing free throws.
4. Juan and Steve were more problematic to me than the lack of production from the frosh.
5. This is what the optimists thought we would get from Todd Mayo. I don't expect 20 every night from him, but if this is the effort on both ends that he is going to bring this year, then we will not have to worry about the 2.
6. Unless Todd can play the 1 and start JJJ at the 2.
7. Buzz seems ahead of the curve on getting MU players to guard without using their hands. Will be an adjustment for everyone.
8. Southern isn't bad
9. Clearly, lots of work to be done. The pieces are there to be very good, but they have to get sorted and fit together properly.
10. tOSU could be gruesome.
Quote from: tower912 on November 09, 2013, 07:01:01 AM
1. Our backcourt is crucial. Somebody needs to step up besides Todd.
2. Freshmen are freshmen. Expecting early production is always problematic.
3. Don't be stupid and start talking about practicing free throws.
4. Juan and Steve were more problematic to me than the lack of production from the frosh.
5. This is what the optimists thought we would get from Todd Mayo. I don't expect 20 every night from him, but if this is the effort on both ends that he is going to bring this year, then we will not have to worry about the 2.
6. Unless Todd can play the 1 and start JJJ at the 2.
7. Buzz seems ahead of the curve on getting MU players to guard without using their hands. Will be an adjustment for everyone.
8. Southern isn't bad
9. Clearly, lots of work to be done. The pieces are there to be very good, but they have to get sorted and fit together properly.
10. tOSU could be gruesome.
Spot on.
Southern is a good team.
Juan and Steve disappointed last night.
Jake has no business being on the floor.
Derrick Wilson was no better than john Dawson.
I think burton and JJJ will contribute by the end of the season.
Todd and Gardner were great. Jamil was pretty good.
Derrick Wilson was better than Dawson. Jeez, Derrick played fine. Defensively very well. Offensively he got the ball where it needed to go.
11. It still looks like Jamil doesn't want to be the man on every possession.
Duane Wilson may be the missing key providing another offensive threat, from outside and the drive. I sure hope he can return this season.
Duane Wilson needs to be the anaswer at PG. Need him back quickly.
Folks, get real. A Freshman is NEVER a good answer at PG. Dawson did OK. Wilson did OK. Cadougan did OK last year. All we need from PG is 2-3 ppg and very low turnovers.
Playing Mayo there 8-10 mins per game would be a good look, though.
Quote from: tower912 on November 09, 2013, 07:21:53 AM
11. It still looks like Jamil doesn't want to be the man on every possession.
I agree, the need to dominate just isn't a part of his makeup. As he showed last night he can/will be a nice player, just not the go to guy. He does show more focus when the game is in doubt late, as in the Davidson game.
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Guards, especially the PG, most important in college basketball. We go as far as they take us. I was worried going into this year about PG play. We'll see how it all plays out.
Quote from: muarmy81 on November 09, 2013, 07:07:48 AM
Jake has no business being on the floor.
That is a bit strong. Buzz played him 22 minutes last night. The man knows what he is doing. I think people better get used to Jake playing a role on this team. As I said it another thread, he is going to average 12-15 minutes a game unless JJJ is freshman of the year for the Big East.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 09, 2013, 07:16:34 AM
Derrick Wilson was better than Dawson. Jeez, Derrick played fine. Defensively very well. Offensively he got the ball where it needed to go.
A high-major PG has to at least make the other team think he might be able to score. Come on, Sultan, you know that's true. We can get away with this Derrick against Southern. Against real opponents, oy.
Sultan pointed it out somewhere, but one thing about Jake is you could really see he got the concept of team defense. He knew when to sag off, how to clog lanes and deny easy entry passes, and simply where he was supposed to be on the floor. Right now I'm not sure I like the idea of him and DeWil playing together for extended stretches, but he's not the total detriment many make him out to be.
Quote from: MU82 on November 09, 2013, 09:11:45 AM
A high-major PG has to at least make the other team think he might be able to score. Come on, Sultan, you know that's true. We can get away with this Derrick against Southern. Against real opponents, oy.
I didn't say he was an All American. I said he played "fine." And he did. I was simply responding to muarmy's suggestion that he played no better than Dawson.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 09, 2013, 09:14:14 AM
I didn't say he was an All American. I said he played "fine." And he did. I was simply responding to muarmy's suggestion that he played no better than Dawson.
I thought neither outplayed the other last night.
Neither threatened to score, neither made any big plays, Derrick was good on defense but I don't think Dawson was a liability on the defensive end either and Derrick had a few iffy fouls. That's it. It was an ugly win but southern is a good team and it's the first game so I've got measured expectations. Those were my observations...
Plenty of freshman have played at a high level at the PG position.
Just at MU in recent history - Tony Miller, Aaron Hutchins, Diener
We cannot have 0 pts from our starting backcourt - period.
And there are going to be alot of those with this tandem.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 09, 2013, 09:07:33 AM
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Guards, especially the PG, most important in college basketball. We go as far as they take us. I was worried going into this year about PG play. We'll see how it all plays out.
Think everyone would like to see more from Derrick...yet it is just one game....yet his game doesn't look to have much of an upward ceiling offensively. He's simply going to be that game manager type of PG..or like the quarterback in football who doesn't do anything great but never makes the mistake that kills you.
And....that could be enough on this team to still go very far as we have a dominant big in Devante. You can also go very far in the NCAA with a force like Devante - there simply aren't many of them. Combine that with good play from Mayo at the 2...and get Jamil clicking....we are a strong team..
I'm not criticizing the PG performance last night. Merely stating that if we want to meet goals this year, PG play will have to be strong.
Quote from: PE8983 on November 09, 2013, 09:59:41 AM
Plenty of freshman have played at a high level at the PG position.
Just at MU in recent history - Tony Miller, Aaron Hutchins, Diener
D. James
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 09, 2013, 09:07:33 AM
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Guards, especially the PG, most important in college basketball. We go as far as they take us. I was worried going into this year about PG play. We'll see how it all plays out.
No more switchables! We need point guards!!!!
Let's find Paul Pressey and get him to teach Jamil how to play point forward.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 09, 2013, 10:19:40 AM
I'm not criticizing the PG performance last night. Merely stating that if we want to meet goals this year, PG play will have to be strong.
Anywhere else, with any other coach, I would agree. I honestly think under Buzz, Marquette can reach the Final Four with average PG play. I doubt it with below average play, but just average play could be good enough. I'm not sure anyone in the country is better at adjusting his style of play to the players he has.
That's the reason Buzz was able to win with Lazar at center and a 2-headed midget PG set, that's the reason Buzz was able to win with a shoot-first SG at the point, and that's the reason Buzz was able to win with a turnover-prone PG. It's why he won playing at one of the slowest tempos in the country (#304 in 2009-10) and one of the fastest tempos in the country (#16 in 2011-12).
Buzz will adjust this team and get them to play to their strengths. He will find ways to mask the deficiencies. He always does. I know everyone likes to have hard and fast rules for basketball. You need great guard play to succeed. You need dominant bigs to succeed. Well, at Marquette, Buzz has disproven pretty much all of that. I know he has his flaws, but when it comes to adjusting style of play to the talent on the roster, I don't think there's any coach better in the country than Buzz Williams, and I'd honestly love to hear suggestions as to who has done better in being able to reshape their entire system on a year-by-year basis.
Quote from: PE8983 on November 09, 2013, 09:59:41 AM
Plenty of freshman have played at a high level at the PG position.
Just at MU in recent history - Tony Miller, Aaron Hutchins, Diener
We cannot have 0 pts from our starting backcourt - period.
And there are going to be alot of those with this tandem.
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We all knew Derrick's offensive game was limited.
But it really puts MU in a bind with Duane out.
Duane's injury is probably the single greatest factor right now to the backcourt success.
It's unfair to put such a responsibility on a freshman, but Derrick can't shoot and Jake can't make his own shot.
Dawson and Todd are going to have to step it up. Also, I will not be surprised if Buzz does go the Point Forward route.
More important than MU's ranking to me is their play.
If DG and/or Jamil gets doubled, the other teammates must recognize the opportunities and go for them.
Or we're going to have slugfests (many unwarranted) every game day.
Be still my heart.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 09, 2013, 10:30:53 AM
Anywhere else, with any other coach, I would agree. I honestly think under Buzz, Marquette can reach the Final Four with average PG play. I doubt it with below average play, but just average play could be good enough. I'm not sure anyone in the country is better at adjusting his style of play to the players he has.
That's the reason Buzz was able to win with Lazar at center and a 2-headed midget PG set, that's the reason Buzz was able to win with a shoot-first SG at the point, and that's the reason Buzz was able to win with a turnover-prone PG. It's why he won playing at one of the slowest tempos in the country (#304 in 2009-10) and one of the fastest tempos in the country (#16 in 2011-12).
Buzz will adjust this team and get them to play to their strengths. He will find ways to mask the deficiencies. He always does. I know everyone likes to have hard and fast rules for basketball. You need great guard play to succeed. You need dominant bigs to succeed. Well, at Marquette, Buzz has disproven pretty much all of that. I know he has his flaws, but when it comes to adjusting style of play to the talent on the roster, I don't think there's any coach better in the country than Buzz Williams, and I'd honestly love to hear suggestions as to who has done better in being able to reshape their entire system on a year-by-year basis.
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So this year we find a way to win with 2-3 ppg from PG slot. Not hard to find 4 other guys who can score on this squad.
Quote from: TheTulsaWarrior on November 09, 2013, 08:07:34 AM
Duane Wilson may be the missing key providing another offensive threat, from outside and the drive. I sure hope he can return this season.
Ah yes.. the old "backup QB is better than the starter; even though he hasn't played 1 minute" viewpoint
Quote from: muarmy81 on November 09, 2013, 09:18:48 AM
I thought neither outplayed the other last night.
Neither threatened to score, neither made any big plays, Derrick was good on defense but I don't think Dawson was a liability on the defensive end either and Derrick had a few iffy fouls. That's it. It was an ugly win but southern is a good team and it's the first game so I've got measured expectations. Those were my observations...
I agree with this completely. You never saw a drop in efficiency when Dawson came in. There was a problem with the press when they put all the backups in.
When he put the starters back on the floor, it was Mayo and Jamil Wilson breaking the press....that should be very telling as to our pg play.
D. Wilson was not just fine and was similar in production to Dawson...People harped on Junior last year, but at this point Junior is an order of magnitude better pg than Wilson.
Quote from: forgetful on November 09, 2013, 01:33:08 PM
I agree with this completely. You never saw a drop in efficiency when Dawson came in. There was a problem with the press when they put all the backups in.
When he put the starters back on the floor, it was Mayo and Jamil Wilson breaking the press....that should be very telling as to our pg play.
This is funny.
"When Dawson was in and turned the ball over, it was everyone else's fault. When Derrick was in and they stopped turning it over, Derrick didn't do anything."
Anything to fit your narrative I guess.
Per kenpom, MU is now best in the country at free throw rate, which is nice.
Quote from: LittleMurs on November 09, 2013, 10:22:59 AM
No more switchables! We need point guards!!!!
I'm good with switchables, just get some solid point guards that can distribute but also get to the hoop and score.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 09, 2013, 01:40:34 PM
This is funny.
"When Dawson was in and turned the ball over, it was everyone else's fault. When Derrick was in and they stopped turning it over, Derrick didn't do anything."
Anything to fit your narrative I guess.
Dawson had one turnover, when he fell to the floor breaking the press. D. Wilson had two turnovers, one of which was him just throwing it into the stands. Moreover, as opposed to letting Dawson try to break the press, Wilson wasn't even asked to help the press break.
Not a narrative, just the facts. To say that Derrick standing on the opposite end of the court did something to help the press break is absurd. Put the same roster in with Dawson standing in the same spot and nothing changes.
I may be over-exaggerating how bad D. Wilson was, but you are over-exaggerating that he was "fine"...the reality is neither right now is capable of taking this team on a deep run. I would like to see Mayo get more of a chance at pg.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on November 09, 2013, 10:32:16 AM
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We all knew Derrick's offensive game was limited.
But it really puts MU in a bind with Duane out.
Duane's injury is probably the single greatest factor right now to the backcourt success.
It's unfair to put such a responsibility on a freshman, but Derrick can't shoot and Jake can't make his own shot.
Dawson and Todd are going to have to step it up. Also, I will not be surprised if Buzz does go the Point Forward route.
More important than MU's ranking to me is their play.
If DG and/or Jamil gets doubled, the other teammates must recognize the opportunities and go for them.
Or we're going to have slugfests (many unwarranted) every game day.
Be still my heart.
I told you before the season in the 'predict the starting lineup thread' that you put Mayo at PG and go from there....problem solved. It's that simple.
What a surprise, the guy on the bench, the guy at the other guard spot, or the guy that's injured are all better than the starting PG. Obviously you are all smarter than Buzz is. Marquette fans haven't been happy with the point since the late 1990s when Hutchins was here. Diener was too injury prone and reckless, Dominic James tried to score too much, Acker and Cooby were career backups, Buycks wasn't a point, and Junior turned it over too much. Honestly, I expect PG complaints for anyone short of Derrick Rose.
No, strike that, we'd probably find issues with Rose too.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 09, 2013, 02:30:19 PM
What a surprise, the guy on the bench, the guy at the other guard spot, or the guy that's injured are all better than the starting PG. Obviously you are all smarter than Buzz is. Marquette fans haven't been happy with the point since the late 1990s when Hutchins was here. Diener was too injury prone and reckless, Dominic James tried to score too much, Acker and Cooby were career backups, Buycks wasn't a point, and Junior turned it over too much. Honestly, I expect PG complaints for anyone short of Derrick Rose.
No, strike that, we'd probably find issues with Rose too.
To be fair, I have always defended our pgs. I did think that Acker wasn't strong enough, but thought he was solid overall. From last night (things can change), D. Wilson is not the answer. Not saying any of the others would necessarily be better, but certainly should be given a chance as the younger guys/Mayo may have more upside. We'll see, I hope this game was not the norm for D. Wilson, but if it is we may need to look at the other options on the bench.
I loved how Buzz got all of their [Freshmen] feet wet...and gave them all some good minutes. It is a talented group who just need to find themselves. They'll be okay...trust me. I can tell...
They will calm down and find themselves quickly. I also like how he has altered the offense somewhat and let this group be more free flowing and utilize their quickness and athleticism in taking the ball to the rack...
There was a limit of ball swings and passing around the perimeter and more cutting and slashing to the hoop. This will work out for more of their players they have.
However, if they are going to do that they need to become a much better free throw shooting team. Jake and a few others have to be better spot up shooters and knock some shots down to help their slashers and mid range guys.
Those who are complaining about the PG situation are delirious. There is no issue there.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 09, 2013, 02:30:19 PM
What a surprise, the guy on the bench, the guy at the other guard spot, or the guy that's injured are all better than the starting PG. Obviously you are all smarter than Buzz is. Marquette fans haven't been happy with the point since the late 1990s when Hutchins was here. Diener was too injury prone and reckless, Dominic James tried to score too much, Acker and Cooby were career backups, Buycks wasn't a point, and Junior turned it over too much. Honestly, I expect PG complaints for anyone short of Derrick Rose.
No, strike that, we'd probably find issues with Rose too.
LOL...I agree. Delusional. There is NOTHING WRONG with the PG play on this team. Nothing. Fans who took that out of this game don't know what they are watching.
Dawson and D. Wilson did what was needed for this game. Get the ball inside to Gardner and work the offense in the post through him with some action off the ball.
They have to work harder on getting free easier off the ball so they are harder to guard. Motion motion motion to take advantage of Devante's passing skills out of the post if anyone is open.
Freshmen bump into themselves alot in the first game and many are afraid to get their shot block so they play a little tentative but they need to just press on and get in there and attack the rim and cut them screens tight and get off their shot.
Which brings me to another issue I had....JAKE THOMAS BEING CALLED FOR TWO BOGUS offensive fouls off screens! That was nonsense. He set perfect screens and was rung up and the official did not explain to him what he did wrong.Screening will be key for this team and if they can't set a screen in college they have to improvise big time.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 09, 2013, 07:16:34 AM
Derrick Wilson was better than Dawson. Jeez, Derrick played fine. Defensively very well. Offensively he got the ball where it needed to go.
As a startin' point guard, Derrick added nothin'. Unless he's at least a threat to score, teams will sag off Wilson.
I may not be a fan of Derrick but he did what was asked of him. I would like to see Dawson get some more playing time but we have other people who can score. Davante, Jamil, Todd and even the freshman will be fine once they get settled in. My biggest problem is that Jake Thomas got way too much playing time last night. There is no reason for Todd not to be in the starting lineup and honestly, Jake should be pulled once he misses a wide open 3. Which he did twice. If hes not hitting 3s he doesnt add any value to this team.
Quote from: MUHoopsFan2 on November 09, 2013, 02:29:04 PM
I told you before the season in the 'predict the starting lineup thread' that you put Mayo at PG and go from there....problem solved. It's that simple.
Not really. How does that impact his production? Who plays next to him?
It isn't that simple.
Derrick never hurts the team but how many top programs have a starting guard avg. 1 or 2 points a game? I have no problem with Jake getting plenty of playing time, he too doesn't hurt the team and I like his hustle but hope he can find a way to score. Would like to see more of Burton he reminds me of Lockett.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 09, 2013, 09:07:33 AM
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Guards, especially the PG, most important in college basketball. We go as far as they take us. I was worried going into this year about PG play. We'll see how it all plays out.
Agreed. We need a point guard to be smart aggressive and most of all, facilitate. I'm worried about the two we have healthy right now. Neither made big mistakes, but nor did they get the offense going much. Junior at least had a decent shot and could drive and finish inside. Not saying he could as a frosh, but that's our problem. Inexperience at PG.
Quote from: raul on November 09, 2013, 09:20:39 PM
I have no problem with Jake getting plenty of playing time
I do. He's made like 2 plays his whole career so far. Dude needs to hit an open jumper.
Quote from: MUHoopsFan2 on November 09, 2013, 02:29:04 PM
I told you before the season in the 'predict the starting lineup thread' that you put Mayo at PG and go from there....problem solved. It's that simple.
If Mayo plays point, he will average 5 TO's a game. He is not a facilitator, either. He is a shoot first guard.
Quote from: willie warrior on November 09, 2013, 09:58:47 PM
If Mayo plays point, he will average 5 TO's a game. He is not a facilitator, either. He is a shoot first guard.
I'm not sure he'd turn it over quite that much, but I agree with willie here. Hmm...maybe the sky really is falling. Mayo's plan is to shoot first, shoot second, drive and shoot third, pass fourth, and shoot off-balanced five. He has the mentality of a pure scorer. If he can drive to the rack and hit shots like he did Friday, that will be a very good thing for this team, and will help us all stop thinking about what might have been with Vander Blue in the lineup. But just because Mayo could turn out to be a fantastic 2-guard for us does not mean he would slide over to the point and give similar returns. That's just silly.
The bottom line is that DeWil is and will be MU's starting point guard this year with Mayo seeing the bulk of the time at the #2. He played 34 minutes against Southern and may be second on the team in minutes per game behind Jamil. Before it is all said and done, I suspect he'll end up averaging about 5 per game. Let's remember that he went 1-4 from the foul line the other night. As others have said, I trust Buzz to find a way to win without a scoring point guard but one who takes very good care of the ball, makes excellent entry passes to Davante, and plays darn good on ball defense.
Hopefully someone, like Du Wil, emerges eventually so Derrick can spell him for 10-12 min./game. That's about right.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 10, 2013, 08:18:41 AM
Hopefully someone, like Du Wil, emerges eventually so Derrick can spell him for 10-12 min. game. That's about right.
Mark it down. Derrick is MU's starting point guard. Might Duane reduce Derrick's load at some point? Maybe.
Derrick would be fine as long as the 2 guard can score and the wing, with Otule, Thomas and Derrick in the game at the same time there will be trouble scoring. Steve Taylor will pick
up his game and Juan has to be part of the scoring problems, those 2 are key. They have to make some buckets, Duane Wilson would be better 2 guard than Thomas, much quicker
good range. Need him by January, is that possible or is it a wasted season, what is the update?
Quote from: BCHoopster on November 10, 2013, 10:24:00 AM
Derrick would be fine as long as the 2 guard can score and the wing, with Otule, Thomas and Derrick in the game at the same time there will be trouble scoring. Steve Taylor will pick
up his game and Juan has to be part of the scoring problems, those 2 are key. They have to make some buckets, Duane Wilson would be better 2 guard than Thomas, much quicker
good range. Need him by January, is that possible or is it a wasted season, what is the update?
Quite simply - quit being a silly drama queen.
I think BC means if that's the earliest Duane could return, then it would be a waste and he'd be better off taking a redshirt.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 09, 2013, 02:30:19 PM
What a surprise, the guy on the bench, the guy at the other guard spot, or the guy that's injured are all better than the starting PG. Obviously you are all smarter than Buzz is. Marquette fans haven't been happy with the point since the late 1990s when Hutchins was here. Diener was too injury prone and reckless, Dominic James tried to score too much, Acker and Cooby were career backups, Buycks wasn't a point, and Junior turned it over too much. Honestly, I expect PG complaints for anyone short of Derrick Rose.
No, strike that, we'd probably find issues with Rose too.
I wasn't here back in the Diener/Wade days, it does surprise me that he was criticized a lot. He may not have been the best player on those teams, but he was the second best, a great 3 point shooter, and a solid passer who could probably be termed a "winner" based on the success of those teams. James was a good point guard as well who just struggled with his shooting. Our recent point guards since those two were all average starters at best, not to diminish what they did though.
Quote from: Boone on November 10, 2013, 10:57:32 AM
I think BC means if that's the earliest Duane could return, then it would be a waste and he'd be better off taking a redshirt.
That is correct, not saying the season will be a waste, but Duane not being ready till Feb. would be a waste. How good would Junior be if he did not waste is freshman season
right now. If Vander and Junior were bad, wow, would that have been exciting.
Quote from: BCHoopster on November 10, 2013, 11:16:15 AM
That is correct, not saying the season will be a waste, but Duane not being ready till Feb. would be a waste. How good would Junior be if he did not waste is freshman season
right now. If Vander and Junior were bad, wow, would that have been exciting.
My apologies!!
Someone may have discussed it, but if Derrick can't make a free throw, he either can't be in the game at the end of a tight game or we're screwed. The guy handling the ball had better be able to knock down some freebies.
After researching the game it sems obvious that Otule, De Wilson and Thomas are big offensive liabilities. Thought Otulevwas really awful. Too bad for such a big body!
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on November 10, 2013, 06:30:08 PM
After researching the game it sems obvious that Otule, De Wilson and Thomas are big offensive liabilities. Thought Otulevwas really awful. Too bad for such a big body!
Otule will be just fine. He will average his 6 and 5. We know what we can get from him.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on November 10, 2013, 06:30:08 PM
After researching the game it sems obvious that Otule, De Wilson and Thomas are big offensive liabilities. Thought Otulevwas really awful. Too bad for such a big body!
Absolutely. One game definitely determines exactly what we can expect from a player for the entire season
Quote from: statnik on November 10, 2013, 11:06:03 AM
I wasn't here back in the Diener/Wade days, it does surprise me that he was criticized a lot. He may not have been the best player on those teams, but he was the second best, a great 3 point shooter, and a solid passer who could probably be termed a "winner" based on the success of those teams. James was a good point guard as well who just struggled with his shooting. Our recent point guards since those two were all average starters at best, not to diminish what they did though.
One thing to remember is that we missed the NCAAs Diener's junior and senior years. While much of the blame for that lied elsewhere, the starting PG that had some injury issues was always going to take some of the blame for that.
Quote from: esard2011 on November 10, 2013, 06:33:15 PM
Otule will be just fine. He will average his 6 and 5. We know what we can get from him.
Sorry. Otule is not fine. Career he is 4.6 and 3.3. Be surprised if the next Roy Hibbert improves to 6 and 5.
Quote from: willie warrior on November 10, 2013, 10:46:16 PM
Sorry. Otule is not fine. Career he is 4.6 and 3.3. Be surprised if the next Roy Hibbert improves to 6 and 5.
Otule is what he is: Half of a nice combo at the 5 with Gardner.
Seriously, man, do you need a hug or something? It's not like this is the end of the Mike Deane era or anything.
Quote from: willie warrior on November 10, 2013, 10:46:16 PM
Sorry. Otule is not fine. Career he is 4.6 and 3.3. Be surprised if the next Roy Hibbert improves to 6 and 5.
You do realize that basketball is played at 2 ends of the court, right?
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 10, 2013, 11:01:34 PM
You do realize that basketball is played at 2 ends of the court, right?
Yeah, I do. Do you? The love for Otule is simply more Kool Aid slurping. Yes, he has had injuries. Yes he is the biggest guy on the floor in almost every game. Yes, he is the next Roy Hibbert as somebody said. Yes he has overcome difficulties. Yes he is a good example of a young man. And yes, he should be much more dominating with 6 years in the system--he should be averaging 10 and 8 when he has been there that long and is the biggest guy on the floor. 5 and 4 at this point are his capability. Good for him, but let's not get overly drunk on the Kool Aid. His minutes cut Gardner's who should be getting 30 per game. And please don't tell me that Gardner cannot do it. Play Otule 10 to 12 minutes per game. Hope he gets the opening tip which is so all encompassing. And give Gardner the minutes--or play both at the same time.
Quote from: willie warrior on November 11, 2013, 09:28:40 AM
Yeah, I do. Do you? The love for Otule is simply more Kool Aid slurping. Yes, he has had injuries. Yes he is the biggest guy on the floor in almost every game. Yes, he is the next Roy Hibbert as somebody said. Yes he has overcome difficulties. Yes he is a good example of a young man. And yes, he should be much more dominating with 6 years in the system--he should be averaging 10 and 8 when he has been there that long and is the biggest guy on the floor. 5 and 4 at this point are his capability. Good for him, but let's not get overly drunk on the Kool Aid. His minutes cut Gardner's who should be getting 30 per game. And please don't tell me that Gardner cannot do it. Play Otule 10 to 12 minutes per game. Hope he gets the opening tip which is so all encompassing. And give Gardner the minutes--or play both at the same time.
So why do you think Buzz isn't giving Gardner 30 mpg?
Quote from: Captain Awesome on November 10, 2013, 10:54:11 PM
Otule is what he is: Half of a nice combo at the 5 with Gardner.
Seriously, man, do you need a hug or something? It's not like this is the end of the Mike Deane era or anything.
Maybe 25% of that nice combo you refer to. The rest of what you said does not compute.
Chris had a very poor game against Southern. So did Steve Taylor, Juan Anderson and Jake Thomas. And (as probably should be expected) the freshmen looked like freshmen. If all those guys (and Derrick) don't play better we'll be in big trouble this year. Given Buzz's track record I don't expect that to happen.
On the plus side, I thought our on ball defense was outstanding and that includes the freshmen. Southern was forced into a ton of difficult shots. 33 and 23 made some tough, contested 3s just to get them into the 50s.
Quote from: willie warrior on November 11, 2013, 09:28:40 AM
Yeah, I do. Do you? The love for Otule is simply more Kool Aid slurping. Yes, he has had injuries. Yes he is the biggest guy on the floor in almost every game. Yes, he is the next Roy Hibbert as somebody said. Yes he has overcome difficulties. Yes he is a good example of a young man. And yes, he should be much more dominating with 6 years in the system--he should be averaging 10 and 8 when he has been there that long and is the biggest guy on the floor. 5 and 4 at this point are his capability. Good for him, but let's not get overly drunk on the Kool Aid. His minutes cut Gardner's who should be getting 30 per game. And please don't tell me that Gardner cannot do it. Play Otule 10 to 12 minutes per game. Hope he gets the opening tip which is so all encompassing. And give Gardner the minutes--or play both at the same time.
Okay, you are overly obsessed with this "next Roy Hibbert" thing. I have no idea who said it, certainly wasn't me.
But have you ever actually looked at CO's numbers? In the past 3 seasons, he has played 80 games, averaging 17.6 minutes. Largely because Davante has been able to take some of those, but regardless, 17.6 minutes. He has also averaged a very consistent 5.1 ppg and 3.7 rpg. If you think he should be getting 10/8, maybe the answer is to cut Davante's minutes. After all, if CO played 35.2 minutes, extrapolation would tell us he would average 10.2 ppg and 7.4 rpg, almost exactly on your expectations. None of this is Kool-Aid, Otule projects to get almost exactly what you want if he plays minutes on par with what guys like Vander, JFB, Jerel, Jae, and DJO have received in recent years. Clearly 10/8
IS[/i] his capability but he's not getting there because the staff his hamstringing him by cutting his minutes.
End of the day, Buzz has forgotten more about basketball than you and I combined could ever hope to know. He knows where Gardner is his most effective, and he knows where CO is his most effective. He knows who is the better offensive player and who is the better defender. And he balances them in such a way that we have won over 70% of the games (54-23) when both have been available leading to Buzz balancing those minutes. 21 of the 23 losses have been to tournament-bound teams, so it's not like we're getting beat by scrubs because of the balancing act he's done either.
Quote from: willie warrior on November 11, 2013, 09:30:45 AM
Maybe 25% of that nice combo you refer to. The rest of what you said does not compute.
Sadly, I think the problem is on your end. Can you ever just look at what we have versus what we had in the past? This is better than the vast majority of the recent past.
Quote from: forgetful on November 09, 2013, 02:27:01 PM
Dawson had one turnover, when he fell to the floor breaking the press. D. Wilson had two turnovers, one of which was him just throwing it into the stands. Moreover, as opposed to letting Dawson try to break the press, Wilson wasn't even asked to help the press break.
Not a narrative, just the facts. To say that Derrick standing on the opposite end of the court did something to help the press break is absurd. Put the same roster in with Dawson standing in the same spot and nothing changes.
I may be over-exaggerating how bad D. Wilson was, but you are over-exaggerating that he was "fine"...the reality is neither right now is capable of taking this team on a deep run. I would like to see Mayo get more of a chance at pg.
1 turnover in 9 minutes is not better than 2 turnovers in 31 minutes. Maybe they did not press Derrick, because they did not expect him to turn it over. I suspect without looking that there were very few, if any, games that Cadougan did not have less than 3 turnovers a game last year.
Quote from: bilsu on November 11, 2013, 12:09:59 PM
1 turnover in 9 minutes is not better than 2 turnovers in 31 minutes. Maybe they did not press Derrick, because they did not expect him to turn it over. I suspect without looking that there were very few, if any, games that Cadougan did not have less than 3 turnovers a game last year.
It was actually a razor-sharp margin. 18 times he had 2 or less turnovers, 17 times he had 3 or more turnovers. It's easier to remember the bad though because of when they occurred. 5 turnovers in losses to Green Bay and Villanova, 4 turnovers in losses to Louisville and Georgetown. Junior averaged 3.4 turnovers in losses and 2.2 turnovers in wins.
After January 1 the importance of Cadougan's turnovers became very pronounced. In games with 2 or less turnovers, we were 12-1. In games with 3 or more turnovers, we were 5-5.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 11, 2013, 10:21:27 AM
End of the day, Buzz has forgotten more about basketball than you and I combined could ever hope to know.
+1000. A lesson most of us, myself included, often forget.
Quote from: Captain Awesome on November 11, 2013, 10:47:18 AM
Sadly, I think the problem is on your end. Can you ever just look at what we have versus what we had in the past? This is better than the vast majority of the recent past.
Sorry Awesome. I do look at what we have now. Where have I been posting about what we had in the past, other than referring to respect for certain past players? When I look at what we have now, I want to improve upon that for the future. I guess maybe you have a problem on your end if you find that wanting to improve in the future is a bad thing. It is nice to have goals to improve, although some think that if one sets goals for higher aspirations then one can set themselves up for a letdown. I do not believe that.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 11, 2013, 10:21:27 AM
Okay, you are overly obsessed with this "next Roy Hibbert" thing. I have no idea who said it, certainly wasn't me.
But have you ever actually looked at CO's numbers? In the past 3 seasons, he has played 80 games, averaging 17.6 minutes. Largely because Davante has been able to take some of those, but regardless, 17.6 minutes. He has also averaged a very consistent 5.1 ppg and 3.7 rpg. If you think he should be getting 10/8, maybe the answer is to cut Davante's minutes. After all, if CO played 35.2 minutes, extrapolation would tell us he would average 10.2 ppg and 7.4 rpg, almost exactly on your expectations. None of this is Kool-Aid, Otule projects to get almost exactly what you want if he plays minutes on par with what guys like Vander, JFB, Jerel, Jae, and DJO have received in recent years. Clearly 10/8 IS[/i] his capability but he's not getting there because the staff his hamstringing him by cutting his minutes.
End of the day, Buzz has forgotten more about basketball than you and I combined could ever hope to know. He knows where Gardner is his most effective, and he knows where CO is his most effective. He knows who is the better offensive player and who is the better defender. And he balances them in such a way that we have won over 70% of the games (54-23) when both have been available leading to Buzz balancing those minutes. 21 of the 23 losses have been to tournament-bound teams, so it's not like we're getting beat by scrubs because of the balancing act he's done either.
Man that is one long winded argument--but yeah, you have convinced everybody. Give Otule Gardner's minutes and see how that works out for you. By the way, using your logic in reverse, give Gardner Otule's minutes and without doing the math, Otule would average about 20 and 9. But then we would possibly lose some opening tips. That would be catastrophic.
And I am glad that you are Buzz's closet analyst, knowing what Buzz has forgotten "at the end of the day". Now there is one overused cliché.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 11, 2013, 09:30:29 AM
So why do you think Buzz isn't giving Gardner 30 mpg?
What would you put Gardner's optimum minute usage at Sultan? I feel he can go a strong 27 minutes per game and that there not be a point of diminishing returns set in...perhaps even as many as 29...
Ok guys, wake up.
1) It was the first game of the season. If anything, Buzz is experimenting to see what line-ups gel and what works.
2) We have a new team this year which includes lots of freshmen. There's going to be mistakes and it's going to look ugly at times.
3) When one of Buzz's predecessors (I won't say who) kept rotating the line-up in the early season, I used to go crazy because there would be three new guys just as the team on the floor found a rhythm. But with Buzz, I feel like he is still exploring the curve and seeing where things end up.
4) I'll betcha things settle down a bit by Ohio State.
5) Southern was a very mediocre team.
6) I still think we're on the verge of something special! Mayo was very encouraging.
Quote from: willie warrior on November 11, 2013, 05:07:08 PM
Sorry Awesome. I do look at what we have now. Where have I been posting about what we had in the past, other than referring to respect for certain past players? When I look at what we have now, I want to improve upon that for the future. I guess maybe you have a problem on your end if you find that wanting to improve in the future is a bad thing. It is nice to have goals to improve, although some think that if one sets goals for higher aspirations then one can set themselves up for a letdown. I do not believe that.
1. The program is moving in the right direction with regards to developing bigs. You may poo poo Otule all you want, but he's substantially better than what we've had in the post in recent years (Gardner obviously excluded).
2. Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that wanting to improve in the future is a bad thing. We all want to continually improve. As fans of MU, we want that for the team that we support. Implying otherwise is dishonest.
3. Improvement is not an overnight thing. Getting the attention of the bigs that will be immediate impact players and getting them to commit takes time.
Quote from: willie warrior on November 11, 2013, 05:14:39 PM
Man that is one long winded argument--but yeah, you have convinced everybody. Give Otule Gardner's minutes and see how that works out for you. By the way, using your logic in reverse, give Gardner Otule's minutes and without doing the math, Otule would average about 20 and 9. But then we would possibly lose some opening tips. That would be catastrophic.
And I am glad that you are Buzz's closet analyst, knowing what Buzz has forgotten "at the end of the day". Now there is one overused cliché.
Are you going to answer my question?
Why do you think that Buzz isn't giving Gardner more minutes?
Quote from: willie warrior on November 11, 2013, 05:14:39 PMGive Otule Gardner's minutes and see how that works out for you. By the way, using your logic in reverse, give Gardner Otule's minutes and without doing the math, Otule would average about 20 and 9.
I don't want to take minutes away from Gardner. I was merely illustrating that what you want Otule to be he already is, but because you are so myopic in your hatred of big men that play at Marquette, you don't realize it.
I also don't want to take minutes away from Otule. I think Otule playing around 16 minutes is ideal. Gardner playing around 24 minutes is ideal. It saves Gardner from getting too tired or becoming too much of a defensive liability, and it lets Otule put his defensive presence in enough that the other team is at least conscious of our post presence on the defensive end.
People get way too obsessed with numbers. The only numbers that really matter are wins and losses. The CO/DG two-headed monster
works and we've seen it for years. But neither CO nor DG is really a complete player. We need both to establish ourselves at both ends of the court. I wish we had a senior center that had the attributes of both CO and DG. But if we did, he would have been a lottery pick 2 years ago, so I'm content with what we have, which is without a doubt the best big man tandem we've seen at Marquette since McIlvaine and McCaskill.
Quote from: Captain Awesome on November 11, 2013, 07:17:46 PM
1. The program is moving in the right direction with regards to developing bigs. You may poo poo Otule all you want, but he's substantially better than what we've had in the post in recent years (Gardner obviously excluded).
2. Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that wanting to improve in the future is a bad thing. We all want to continually improve. As fans of MU, we want that for the team that we support. Implying otherwise is dishonest.
3. Improvement is not an overnight thing. Getting the attention of the bigs that will be immediate impact players and getting them to commit takes time.
And how much time will that take to get their attention? Three years, 5 years, Moses' lifetime? isn't this Buzz's 6th year? Three straight sweet 16's should have gotten some attention. The only quality big/switchable we are still in on is Stone--will we land him?
By the way, I did not put words in your mouth, just like you did not put them in my mouth. I said "if you find" and "maybe". Please read, and do not jump to wild conclusions.
willie, you can't seem to articulate why Buzz isn't giving Gardner 30 mpg since you believe it would be more effective. Does Buzz not know as much as you do? Is it some sort of conspiracy?
Quote from: willie warrior on November 12, 2013, 08:35:22 AM
Please read, and do not jump to wild conclusions.
Good advice for us all to take.
Quote from: willie warrior on November 12, 2013, 08:35:22 AM
The only quality big/switchable we are still in on is Stone--will we land him?
I don't what you define as quality but we are actively pursuing Stone, Ellenson, Zimmerman, and Giddens who are all 5/4 star bigs. We are also in on Bunch, Yates, Pierce, and Deyonte Davis who are all three star bigs.
Getting one of the 5/4 star group and one of the 3 star group would be more than enough for me.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 11, 2013, 12:32:30 PM
It was actually a razor-sharp margin. 18 times he had 2 or less turnovers, 17 times he had 3 or more turnovers. It's easier to remember the bad though because of when they occurred. 5 turnovers in losses to Green Bay and Villanova, 4 turnovers in losses to Louisville and Georgetown. Junior averaged 3.4 turnovers in losses and 2.2 turnovers in wins.
After January 1 the importance of Cadougan's turnovers became very pronounced. In games with 2 or less turnovers, we were 12-1. In games with 3 or more turnovers, we were 5-5.
Thank you for looking it up. I would not of guessed he had as many games as he did with two or less turnovers. It would be an interesting debate about the Big East record of 5-5 when Cadougan had 3 or more turnovers. Did Cadougan's turnovers cause the loss or were Cadougan's turnovers the result of playing a tougher team. We probably would not of beat Louisville at Louisville even if Cadougan had no turnovers. We lost to Cincy in overtime, so one less turnover could of mattered. However, making one more free throw in regulation we would of won the game in spite of Cadougan's turnovers.
Freshmen scoring averages and what they scored in first season opener under Buzz:
1. Todd Mayo 7.9 5 pts
2. Vander Blue 5.1 7 pts (went pro after junior season)
3. Davante Gardner 4.6 17pts
4. Jerone Maymon 4.0 9 pts (jumped ship during season)
5. Steve Taylor 2.7 4 pts
6. Deonte Burton 2.0 2 pts (one game)
7. Reggie Smith 1.4 2 pts (jumped ship during season)
8. Jamil Jones 1.4 0 pts (transferred after two seasons)
9. Chris Otule 1.3 DNP
10. Eric Williams 1.2 1 pt (transferred after two seasons)
11. Jamil Ferguson 1.1 4 pts (transferred after one season)
12. John Dawson 1.0 1 pt (one game)
13 Juan Anderson 0.7 DNP
14. Derick Wilson 0.6 2 pts
15. Junior Cadougan 0.3 DNP
16. You. Mbao 0.1 DNP (transferred after one season)
17. JaJuan Johnson 0.0 0 (one game)
18. Duane Wilson 0.0 DNP (no games)
15 Freshmen under Buzz prior to this year and only 5 of them averaged more than two points for their first season.
Conclusion, even if Duane comes back he will not add much to point guard scoring.
Yeah, I think everyone needs to chill out on the Duane Wilson thing for this year. I know that people are all excited about him based on potential, and people like Paint Touches have stoked that fire some more, but he is a freshman...missing a good portion of the season due to injury.