http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2013-10-31/big-east-expansion-candidates-tom-crean-indiana-basketball-marshall-henderson?eadid=EL/SICOM
Something to tick off everybody, I guess. In DeCourcy's opinion, 1. St. Louis 2. Richmond 3. Dayton 4. VCU 5. Gonzaga...if they move their campus to Cleveland.
Thinks Crean deserves huzzah's for IU's rapid re-rise.
For the record, this is DeCourcy's first sentence:
QuoteIf the Big East wants to be a great basketball league, and not just a big one, it probably has just the right number of teams involved at the moment.
I wouldn't be opposed to adding SLU for 11 teams and a 20 game schedule, but I'm sure there are reasons why that probably won't happen.
Quote from: boyonthedock on November 01, 2013, 01:18:53 PM
I wouldn't be opposed to adding SLU for 11 teams and a 20 game schedule, but I'm sure there are reasons why that probably won't happen.
The effect of that would basically be trading a non-conference home-and-home series, like our current one with tOSU, for a home-and-home with SLU.
Quote from: Litehouse on November 01, 2013, 01:35:52 PM
The effect of that would basically be trading a non-conference home-and-home series, like our current one with tOSU, for a home-and-home with SLU.
Good point. In that case--wouldn't FOX be more inclined to keep us at 10 teams to they can host solid OOC matchups like MU vs tOSU, Providence v BC, etc? Each team having one solid home and home would provide at least 5 better draws per year than SLU would.
Quote from: xghostsniperx on November 01, 2013, 01:39:47 PM
Good point. In that case--wouldn't FOX be more inclined to keep us at 10 teams to they can host solid OOC matchups like MU vs tOSU, Providence v BC, etc? Each team having one solid home and home would provide at least 5 better draws per year than SLU would.
I think Fox still wants more markets, and more overall eyeballs. You get that by adding more teams. We will go to 12 for sure. SLU and Richmond are my top 2 choices.
What will happen is they will push the DePaul vs. Seton Hall-type games down to FS2. The premier out of conference games like MU-tOSU will go on the FOX network mothership, and most of the higher profile conference games will stay on FS1.
Quote from: Bleuteaux on November 01, 2013, 02:20:51 PM
I think Fox still wants more markets, and more overall eyeballs. You get that by adding more teams. We will go to 12 for sure. SLU and Richmond are my top 2 choices.
What will happen is they will push the DePaul vs. Seton Hall-type games down to FS2. The premier out of conference games like MU-tOSU will go on the FOX network mothership, and most of the higher profile conference games will stay on FS1.
So more eyeballs would watch MU-SLU than MU-tOSU? Not so sure....
Quote from: xghostsniperx on November 01, 2013, 01:39:47 PM
Good point. In that case--wouldn't FOX be more inclined to keep us at 10 teams to they can host solid OOC matchups like MU vs tOSU, Providence v BC, etc? Each team having one solid home and home would provide at least 5 better draws per year than SLU would.
But if you add more teams, you get the rights to not only additional conference games, but to the non-conference home games of those teams as well.
Plus conference games happen after college football winds down.
Quote from: Bleuteaux on November 01, 2013, 02:20:51 PM
I think Fox still wants more markets, and more overall eyeballs. You get that by adding more teams.
Yes, Fox wants more eyeballs, but do any of these schools really do that? Yes, SLU adds Missouri. yay. VCU, Dayton, and Richmond all are in markets the BEast is currently in. (Yes, I acknowledge that the Dayton market is different than the Cinci market. I was born there, I have family there, I get it) The challenge is to find a school that fits the BEast template that actually brings in a significant market. SLU does the best. After that, it is less clear.
Looking at the 1st AP poll of the season had me thinking VCU & Wichita St.
Clearly let's push VCU down on the pecking order. After all they annually get two top 100 recruits, have a young star coach that has been loyal to the program and have a recent final 4.
Dogs like St. Louis and Richmond are far more attractive.
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/playerrankings
The problem with VCU is that they are a state school. 32k enrollment. In a small arena. I agree with anybody who says that from a basketball standpoint, they would be better. Just like I agree with anybody that from a basketball-only perspective (with no regards to geography and all the other teams and costs associated with transporting the girl's tennis team to Philadelphia to face Villanova) Gonzaga makes sense. But geography IS an issue and being a state school IS an issue.
St. Louis makes a lot of sense to me because Missouri is a connecting state between Illinois and Nebraska. However, at this point I have become very happy with 10 teams. That will change, if the Big East starts getting only 3 bids to NCAA. I would think adding two teams would get you one more NCAA bid on average. In the Old Big East you were probably in if you finished 8th in the conference. In the new Big East you are sweating bullets, if you finish 4th and are probably NIT bound if you finish 5th. There is less margin for error in new Big East.
How much does SLU actually "deliver" the Missouri market? Is it roughly like how Rutgers will "deliver" the NYC market for the B1G? Too bad Shaka Smart isn't the SLU coach, because that would solve everything.
Quote from: tower912 on November 01, 2013, 03:10:23 PM
The problem with VCU is that they are a state school. 32k enrollment. In a small arena. I agree with anybody who says that from a basketball standpoint, they would be better. Just like I agree with anybody that from a basketball-only perspective (with no regards to geography and all the other teams and costs associated with transporting the girl's tennis team to Philadelphia to face Villanova) Gonzaga makes sense. But geography IS an issue and being a state school IS an issue.
And if Shaka leaves, what's the left of the value of that program?
ZILCH.
5 year plan....you don't say. ;D Where have I heard that
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=8386.msg478947#msg478947
Quote from: tower912 on November 01, 2013, 02:46:20 PM
Yes, Fox wants more eyeballs, but do any of these schools really do that? Yes, SLU adds Missouri. yay. VCU, Dayton, and Richmond all are in markets the BEast is currently in. (Yes, I acknowledge that the Dayton market is different than the Cinci market. I was born there, I have family there, I get it) The challenge is to find a school that fits the BEast template that actually brings in a significant market. SLU does the best. After that, it is less clear.
The big east is already in the Richmond market? Am I missing something? DC and Richmond are not the same market
Quote from: GooooMarquette on November 01, 2013, 02:35:25 PM
So more eyeballs would watch MU-SLU than MU-tOSU? Not so sure....
No.
2 more teams means the potential for more premier out of of conference games. It means you can televise when SLU plays a top ten team AND when MU does. The MU-tOSU game doesn't go anywhere
Quote from: Bleuteaux on November 01, 2013, 10:22:42 PM
No.
2 more teams means the potential for more premier out of of conference games. It means you can televise when SLU plays a top ten team AND when MU does. The MU-tOSU game doesn't go anywhere
Other than off the schedule because MU has to play two games against SLU.
Dayton is trending slightly up. SLU shot up but will be trending down once Crews is unable to feed off Majerus' work. Richmond is trending down. VCU...trending way up. For this reason alone, we should grab VCU.
Quote from: Bleuteaux on November 01, 2013, 10:22:42 PM
No.
2 more teams means the potential for more premier out of of conference games. It means you can televise when SLU plays a top ten team AND when MU does. The MU-tOSU game doesn't go anywhere
The issue was that someone mentioned just taking SLU and going to 11 teams with a 20 game schedule. That would likely mean losing a non-con home and home series because we need to play a certain number of home games to support our athletic department budget.
If we go to 12 and have an unbalanced 18 game schedule, then the out of conference schedule stays the same. Then we potentially lose a game with Georgetown, Villanova, or St. Johns, Xavier, Creighton, etc. and replace it with SLU or the other team.
Personally, I'd rather stay at 10.
Quote from: Brewtown Andy on November 02, 2013, 02:18:32 AM
Other than off the schedule because MU has to play two games against SLU.
Bingo.
Quote from: Brewtown Andy on November 02, 2013, 02:18:32 AM
Other than off the schedule because MU has to play two games against SLU.
No.
MU would likely play 18 Big East games like they did when there were 16 teams in the conference, and 10 in the conference. It just would no longer be a true round robin.
MU would have exactly the same non-conference schedule as before, unless MU wanted to weaken it for other reasons
Quote from: Litehouse on November 02, 2013, 06:45:05 AM
The issue was that someone mentioned just taking SLU and going to 11 teams with a 20 game schedule. That would likely mean losing a non-con home and home series because we need to play a certain number of home games to support our athletic department budget.
If we go to 12 and have an unbalanced 18 game schedule, then the out of conference schedule stays the same. Then we potentially lose a game with Georgetown, Villanova, or St. Johns, Xavier, Creighton, etc. and replace it with SLU or the other team.
Personally, I'd rather stay at 10.
I sincerely doubt the BE would move to a 20 game schedule, but if they would, then I agree with everyone here that adding 2 teams would be a bad move.
But I just don't see it happening. It would disrupt everyone's nonconference schedule too much.
Add 2 teams and stay at 18 games.
SLU has some things going for them.
-Current and recent on the court success. Crews has done well, and has been recruiting well too. Calbert Cheaney hired. Mike Lepore, formerly analytics at Butler and Wake Forest hired, etc..
-New $80 million on campus arena and practice facility
-That arena was the 2nd busiest on campus arena in the World in 2012 in terms of tickets sold to non university events. It's also one of busiest 10-15k arenas in the world.
-Almost all of their games will be televised nationally, or on Fox Sports Midwest. This is significantly better than during their down year times. When they win, more people go, more people watch, more people willing to televise their games.
-Top 20 market nationally.
-SLU's school President is retiring after 25 years and the search is on for a new one. It has been documented that the previous one was often a detriment to SLU's basketball program.
Quote from: The Sultan of Silly on November 01, 2013, 03:05:59 PM
Clearly let's push VCU down on the pecking order. After all they annually get two top 100 recruits, have a young star coach that has been loyal to the program and have a recent final 4.
Dogs like St. Louis and Richmond are far more attractive.
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/playerrankings
They are a regionally-based state school with 30k students in a mid-sized city that has zero pro sports teams. Point being that the football bug may bite them.
-Scooper Doe: But, didn't you hear? The current AD said "no" to football.
-Me: What about when he's gone? There is and has been a 'bring football to VCU' student group on campus.
-Scooper Doe: No way. VCU, along with other mid-major schools, have learned that they will never be the SEC. They'll never add football.
-ME: And ODU? UNC-Charlotte?
-Scooper Doe: SHAKA SMART!!!!!!!
Guys, VCU may look sexy now, but we're still tipsy from their Final Four run. Let's keep expansion in our pants so that we don't wake up with a Shaka-less, public football school.
Quote from: Bleuteaux on November 02, 2013, 08:44:06 AM
No.
MU would likely play 18 Big East games like they did when there were 16 teams in the conference, and 10 in the conference. It just would no longer be a true round robin.
MU would have exactly the same non-conference schedule as before, unless MU wanted to weaken it for other reasons
I apologize, I was reacting to the "20 league games" idea. 20 league games means 2 non-con games would have to go.
Quote from: ElDonBDon on November 02, 2013, 11:29:24 AM
They are a regionally-based state school with 30k students in a mid-sized city that has zero pro sports teams. Point being that the football bug may bite them.
-Scooper Doe: But, didn't you hear? The current AD said "no" to football.
-Me: What about when he's gone? There is and has been a 'bring football to VCU' student group on campus.
-Scooper Doe: No way. VCU, along with other mid-major schools, have learned that they will never be the SEC. They'll never add football.
-ME: And ODU? UNC-Charlotte?
-Scooper Doe: SHAKA SMART!!!!!!!
I don't think people appreciate how expensive it is to start a football program from scratch. I once asked a member of the BOT what it would take for Marquette to get football again. The answer was "An alumni to donate 500 million specifically earmarked for football."
ODU and UNC Charlotte had FCS teams. Jumping from FCS to FBS is one thing. But starting a program from scratch? Ain't never gonna happen. And even if they did get FCS football, it would take them dozens of years to make it to FBS and will probably never get there. Just look at Butler, Villanova, and Georgetown.
It would be more likely for Butler, Villanova, or Georgetown to add FBS football than it would be for VCU.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 02, 2013, 01:04:18 PM
I don't think people appreciate how expensive it is to start a football program from scratch. I once asked a member of the BOT what it would take for Marquette to get football again. The answer was "An alumni to donate 500 million specifically earmarked for football."
ODU and UNC Charlotte had FCS teams. Jumping from FCS to FBS is one thing. But starting a program from scratch? Ain't never gonna happen. And even if they did get FCS football, it would take them dozens of years to make it to FBS and will probably never get there. Just look at Butler, Villanova, and Georgetown.
It would be more likely for Butler, Villanova, or Georgetown to add FBS football than it would be for VCU.
That's absurd...it could easily be done with $400 million. In all seriousness you are exactly right. If you had a donor that wanted to pony up those kind of dollars then fine...but you would be unlikely to even recoup the cost of running the team, forget ever getting a return on investment of that $500 million.
The actual benefit of football is publicity and bringing in more students (for successful programs bringing in donations). MU already has a basketball program that brings in national attention and donations, no need to go to football just because of TV contracts/conference realignment.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 02, 2013, 01:04:18 PM
I don't think people appreciate how expensive it is to start a football program from scratch. I once asked a member of the BOT what it would take for Marquette to get football again. The answer was "An alumni to donate 500 million specifically earmarked for football."
ODU and UNC Charlotte had FCS teams. Jumping from FCS to FBS is one thing. But starting a program from scratch? Ain't never gonna happen. And even if they did get FCS football, it would take them dozens of years to make it to FBS and will probably never get there. Just look at Butler, Villanova, and Georgetown.
It would be more likely for Butler, Villanova, or Georgetown to add FBS football than it would be for VCU.
What would this jump cost for a public school? After all, they have tax dollars on their side. Using the tried and true a-stadium-will-boost-economic-development-in-Richmond argument and therefore tax-payer dollars are justified being channeled to a football stadium, which can also double to host concerts in Richmond, etc. Enlighten me here, did UCONN use (new-at-the-time) tax dollars to build its mighty 40,000 capacity stadium?
It is easier to jump from FCS to FBS, but if my memory serves me correctly, ODU is building (built?) a brand-new stadium for FBS, which, of course, is almost as if they are starting from scratch.
Quote from: Bleuteaux on November 01, 2013, 10:18:33 PM
The big east is already in the Richmond market? Am I missing something? DC and Richmond are not the same market
You are 100% correct. Richmond and DC are not just different markets but radically different worlds.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 02, 2013, 04:08:17 AM
Dayton is trending slightly up. SLU shot up but will be trending down once Crews is unable to feed off Majerus' work. Richmond is trending down. VCU...trending way up. For this reason alone, we should grab VCU.
I had finally come around about VCU, but now DeCourcey has me rethinking again.
C'mon man, DeCourcey is a Crean homey. Ya can't soften up from readin' his junk.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 03, 2013, 07:02:43 AM
C'mon man, DeCourcey is a Crean homey. Ya can't soften up from readin' his junk.
Well, ....he doesn't exactly make me hard.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 03, 2013, 07:02:43 AM
C'mon man, DeCourcey is a Crean homey. Ya can't soften up from readin' his junk.
One of the best college basketball writers out there. Parrish and Goodman are Buzz homeys, they all have their mouthpieces.
The entire premise of bringing in VCU is built around who their coach is today and ONE year.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 03, 2013, 07:02:43 AM
C'mon man, DeCourcey is a Crean homey. Ya can't soften up from readin' his junk.
+1000
Inducted into the Hall of Fame for the United States Basketball Writers Association
http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2011-12-23/sporting-news-mike-decourcy-inducted-into-hall-of-fame
Quote from: Aughnanure on November 03, 2013, 10:04:29 AM
The entire premise of bringing in VCU is built around who their coach is today and ONE year.
They have more success in the tournament than SLU, Dayton, or Richmond (by a landslide if you don't count Dayton's 1967 final four). They have already locked up 4 star recruits for this season, next season, and the one after that (The other three have no 4 stars between all three of them). They bring in a new media market that is bigger than Dayton (but smaller the SLU). They have $$$$. They are nationally known and followed because of their recent success. They are a unanimous top 15 pick in everyone's preseason polls (I don't think any of the other three are getting votes...maybe SLU got one or two in some polls).
Oh and yes, they've been to a final four in the past two years and they have one of the hottest young coaches who has already turned down an opening at a blue blood institution to stay at VCU.
Those were just the first few things off the top of my head. I'm sure I could find more reasons if I took time to research it.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 03, 2013, 12:05:51 PM
They have more success in the tournament than SLU, Dayton, or Richmond (by a landslide if you don't count Dayton's 1967 final four). They have already locked up 4 star recruits for this season, next season, and the one after that (The other three have no 4 stars between all three of them). They bring in a new media market that is bigger than Dayton (but smaller the SLU). They have $$$$. They are nationally known and followed because of their recent success. They are a unanimous top 15 pick in everyone's preseason polls (I don't think any of the other three are getting votes...maybe SLU got one or two in some polls).
Oh and yes, they've been to a final four in the past two years and they have one of the hottest young coaches who has already turned down an opening at a blue blood institution to stay at VCU.
Those were just the first few things off the top of my head. I'm sure I could find more reasons if I took time to research it.
Cool, we're not adding SLU for their tournament success and everyone knows that. Again, ALL of that success is ONE year. They've still only made it to the 2nd weekend once.
They don't have more money than Richmond, SLU (unsure on Dayton). They are also not as nationally known as you think. Basketball junkies? Sure. Average fans? No.
Again, and all the recruiting and success is predicated on a certain coach staying, and he WILL eventually leave. I'm not saying be a terrible add at all or anything, but I'm so sick of this argument that they're this MUST ADD. The #4/5 state school in ANY state is never a must add.
Quote from: Aughnanure on November 03, 2013, 12:16:30 PM
Cool, we're not adding SLU for their tournament success and everyone knows that. Again, ALL of that success is ONE year. They've still only made it to the 2nd weekend once.
They don't have more money than Richmond, SLU (unsure on Dayton). They are also not as nationally known as you think. Basketball junkies? Sure. Average fans? No.
Again, and all the recruiting and success is predicated on a certain coach staying, and he WILL eventually leave. I'm not saying be a terrible add at all or anything, but I'm so sick of this argument that they're this MUST ADD. The #4/5 state school in ANY state is never a must add.
I am not disagreeing with much you are saying, but to say that all of their success is due to one coach is a little inaccurate. Over the past decade they made the tournament with three coaches (Capel, Grant, Smart). Honestly I am not sure what the differences are between them and Butler.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 03, 2013, 12:44:59 PM
I am not disagreeing with much you are saying, but to say that all of their success is due to one coach is a little inaccurate. Over the past decade they made the tournament with three coaches (Capel, Grant, Smart). Honestly I am not sure what the differences are between them and Butler.
Sultan, your signature is kind of......weird.
Quote from: real chili 83 on November 03, 2013, 01:14:38 PM
Sultan, your signature is kind of......weird.
Not that weird...Sultan definitely has fans that dog his every post.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 03, 2013, 01:19:30 PM
Not that weird...Sultan definitely has fans that dog his every post.
I get that. I like reading his stuff. He sometimes brings it on with his condescending tone. Overall, a solid contributor.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 03, 2013, 01:19:30 PM
Not that weird...Sultan definitely has fans that dog his every post.
Please....minor leagues ;D
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 03, 2013, 02:18:36 PM
Please....minor leagues ;D
LOL
Just because he's not alone in that regard doesn't mean it's not accurate ;)