I've watched, with a combination of amusement and annoyance, as some have posted negative comments on the recent signing of Marial Shayock. Clearly, this signing was a debacle. I mean who needs a 6-7, 4-star player who has only begun to scratch his potential. I too would like to see us sign a post player but the fact of the matter remains that great post players are difficult to procure. We have two on our current roster (Chris and Davante) neither of which were highly recruited out of high school. Both, thanks to their own ability and strong coaching, have become good players. However, the fact remains that the truly great post players, if your program is fortunate enough to sign one, are likely to only be around for a season. I am very hopeful that young Mr. Stone will select his hometown school and re-team with Duane Wilson to provide Marquette fans with some great moments. Apparently, we seem to be in good shape but only time will tell.
That said many Marquette fans have become very jaded and somewhat ridiculous in the critical comments regarding the program and more specifically the recruiting efforts. This class now features four 4-star recruits (although some may speculate the Mr. Harris might no longer be a member) and comes on the heels on a top 10 class (Mr. McKay's disappointing departure notwithstanding). This is a golden era in Marquette basketball. Coach Williams has elevated the program to the point where we are seriously considered by many of the nation's best players. I have complete faith in Buzz, and his staff, to secure not only players that can perform exceptionally well on the court, but also possess the character and intellectual capacity to achieve success socially and academically.
I was struck yesterday with the announcement that Matt Farrell, a point guard from New Jersey, had verbally committed to Boston College. Apparently, young Mr. Farrell selected BC over offers from Dartmouth and Monmouth. Clearly, Mr. Farrell must be a very bright young man to attract the interest of such demanding academic schools as BC and Dartmouth but it's also clear that BC's basketball program has clearly fallen upon lean times when they are reduced to beating out the aforementioned schools for talent. I'm not taking a shot at Mr. Farrell as I'm sure he's a fine young man and a good basketball player. However, I can only imagine the meltdown, throughout Marquette nation, if we beat out similar schools for a recruit. The fact is there was a time (which many of us lived through) where we had a great X & O coach (much like Donahue at BC) whose recruiting skills were equally questionable. We would routinely beat out such powers as Evansville and Loyola for recruits with the hopes that Coach Deane would be able to "coach them up." The results were occasional breakthrough recruits (Wardle, Henry) but more often then not less than stellar results. So let's give this staff the credit they deserve and trust that they will find the right student/athletes to sustain and even improve upon the success they have achieved. Will there be bumps (McKay being the latest)? Sure, but all in all I have to say the results speak for themselves and those results have been outstanding!
Testify. I cannot disagree with a word you wrote.
IMHO Marquette has not recruited at this level since Al. We have a "franchise" coach, if people are unhappy now, I shudder to think what the program would look like post-Buzz.
With the NCAA performance over the last 3 years I would think fans and message board posters should be thrilled with the state of the program. Marquette will never be a blue blood.
Go MU
Quote from: Atlanta Warrior on October 23, 2013, 07:48:31 AM
Clearly, this signing was a debacle.
I'm thinking is this guy on drugs?
Quote from: Atlanta Warrior on October 23, 2013, 07:48:31 AM
I mean who needs a 6-7, 4-star player who has only begun to scratch his potential.
Ah, sarcasm! Agree on all points. We really need games to start. Only 16 days!
Lets be realistic, MU is a city school with very little green space, cold climate, but there is a lot to do in a big city. There are plus's that is for sure, but it is not for everybody.
Satchel Pierce is going to visit Miami, I went to school there, hard to say no to that climate and surroundings. Night and day. Buzz has elevated the program just below what Al
did. The basketball climate has changed since then, very difficult due to the fact one and done kids go to certain schools, those schools are able to do it every year. That effects
all the other schools, if they would stay 4 years, that would be 30 kids more likely going to find different schools. MU needs to develop kids, and that is what Buzz can sell and has
done. 4 star kids are great, talented, but maybe not good enough to leave early. Hope he can do that every year. Last 2 recruiting classes look to be very good. In recruiting 13
quality kids, some will not except not getting playing time, ala McKay. It is going to happen since Buzz wants to have 13 scholarship players. So some do not work out, no big deal.
MU is on the map again for basketball.
Quote from: blikemike2 on October 23, 2013, 08:01:56 AM
IMHO Marquette has not recruited at this level since Al. We have a "franchise" coach, if people are unhappy now, I shudder to think what the program would look like post-Buzz.
With the NCAA performance over the last 3 years I would think fans and message board posters should be thrilled with the state of the program. Marquette will never be a blue blood.
Go MU
Post Buzz, we could still be good, if not better.
You're right, we'll never be a "Blue Blood" cause we don't start and seldom play freshmen. Hopefully that change this year.
Quote from: Sunbelt15 on October 23, 2013, 08:59:08 AM
You're right, we'll never be a "Blue Blood" cause we don't start and seldom play freshmen. Hopefully that change this year.
What? Paint Touches pretty much decimated the thought that Buzz doesn't play freshmen.
I mean, which freshman should have played more than they actually did? And who should they have taken minutes from?
Quote from: Sunbelt15 on October 23, 2013, 08:59:08 AM
Post Buzz, we could still be good, if not better.
We could still be good. As good? Unlikely. Better? Nearly impossible.
Quote from: Sunbelt15 on October 23, 2013, 08:59:08 AM
You're right, we'll never be a "Blue Blood" cause we don't start and seldom play freshmen. Hopefully that change this year.
So DePaul's a blue blood? Who would have thunk it.
Marial Shayok. SHAYOK. S-H-A-Y-O-K
100% agree with you Atlanta Warrior! Marial Shayok has tremendous upside, and was listed as one of the five best unsigned (at the time the article was written) prospects outside the ESPN 100 by Reggie Rankin:
"Shayok has improved at a steady rate, has a good feel for the game and possesses a good basketball IQ. He scores from the midrange, can get to the rim (where he does a good job of drawing fouls), has a good handle that allows him to make plays off the bounce and can deliver the pass when he draws a second defender."
Great signing for MU and Buzz!
Quote from: BCHoopster on October 23, 2013, 08:31:53 AM
Lets be realistic, MU is a city school with very little green space, cold climate, but there is a lot to do in a big city. There are plus's that is for sure, but it is not for everybody.
Satchel Pierce is going to visit Miami, I went to school there, hard to say no to that climate and surroundings. Night and day.
This may be the most overrated factor in recruiting. If weather mattered that much, schools like Miami, USC, ASU, USF, etc., wouldn't be consistently bad/mediocre. And programs like Syracuse, Kansas, Michigan State and UConn wouldn't be perennial powers.
I'm sure there are kids out there to whom weather matters very much, but for the most part it doesn't seem to be a deciding factor for most.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 23, 2013, 09:34:23 AM
We could still be good. As good? Unlikely. Better? Nearly impossible.
+1,000 (+10,000, no longer available)
Quote from: Atlanta Warrior on October 23, 2013, 07:48:31 AM
I've watched, with a combination of amusement and annoyance, as some have posted negative comments on the recent signing of Marial Shayock. Clearly, this signing was a debacle. I mean who needs a 6-7, 4-star player who has only begun to scratch his potential. I too would like to see us sign a post player but the fact of the matter remains that great post players are difficult to procure. We have two on our current roster (Chris and Davante) neither of which were highly recruited out of high school. Both, thanks to their own ability and strong coaching, have become good players. However, the fact remains that the truly great post players, if your program is fortunate enough to sign one, are likely to only be around for a season. I am very hopeful that young Mr. Stone will select his hometown school and re-team with Duane Wilson to provide Marquette fans with some great moments. Apparently, we seem to be in good shape but only time will tell.
That said many Marquette fans have become very jaded and somewhat ridiculous in the critical comments regarding the program and more specifically the recruiting efforts. This class now features four 4-star recruits (although some may speculate the Mr. Harris might no longer be a member) and comes on the heels on a top 10 class (Mr. McKay's disappointing departure notwithstanding). This is a golden era in Marquette basketball. Coach Williams has elevated the program to the point where we are seriously considered by many of the nation's best players. I have complete faith in Buzz, and his staff, to secure not only players that can perform exceptionally well on the court, but also possess the character and intellectual capacity to achieve success socially and academically.
I was struck yesterday with the announcement that Matt Farrell, a point guard from New Jersey, had verbally committed to Boston College. Apparently, young Mr. Farrell selected BC over offers from Dartmouth and Monmouth. Clearly, Mr. Farrell must be a very bright young man to attract the interest of such demanding academic schools as BC and Dartmouth but it's also clear that BC's basketball program has clearly fallen upon lean times when they are reduced to beating out the aforementioned schools for talent. I'm not taking a shot at Mr. Farrell as I'm sure he's a fine young man and a good basketball player. However, I can only imagine the meltdown, throughout Marquette nation, if we beat out similar schools for a recruit. The fact is there was a time (which many of us lived through) where we had a great X & O coach (much like Donahue at BC) whose recruiting skills were equally questionable. We would routinely beat out such powers as Evansville and Loyola for recruits with the hopes that Coach Deane would be able to "coach them up." The results were occasional breakthrough recruits (Wardle, Henry) but more often then not less than stellar results. So let's give this staff the credit they deserve and trust that they will find the right student/athletes to sustain and even improve upon the success they have achieved. Will there be bumps (McKay being the latest)? Sure, but all in all I have to say the results speak for themselves and those results have been outstanding!
Agreed 100%. We should enjoy what we have going. Nothing last forever. Relax and enjoy. For those of us old enough to have lived through the down times, it is almost unimaginable to be at this level today. All smiles :)
There seem to be a lot of arm chair critics, some who are trolls, is my guess. But, I kind of look at it like the great Superbowl teams that dominate... there are always some real fans who complain and are scared... if there is nothing else to complain about, then they will complain about "what will happen two years from now" or "the kickoffs are not deep enough" or "the punt game is lacking hang time..." etc. Some people just have to complain, it's in their nature. Feel for them and be compassionate... it must suck to think like that about something that is not even real life to us fans.
For the 95% of us that know how good we have it with Buzz, let's sit back and smile and enjoy.
Quote from: Sunbelt15 on October 23, 2013, 08:59:08 AM
Post Buzz, we could still be good, if not better.
You have a history of curious (at best) posts. The above, just eliminates any doubt that you like to troll.
For those who think MU the university/facilities is/are the draw - you couldn't be more mistaken. Top 100 kids choose a college due to: A)Who the head coach is. B)History sending players to the NBA - which is an offshoot of the coaching staff's development skills. C) Location - climate, girls. D) Academic profile of university.
MU has done better than Buzz 1 time in its history - Al McGuire - a legend. Buzz is only 5 years in, and very well can meet/exceed Al's accomplishments if he stays at MU 10-15 years. To think MU could better post Buzz is the most ludicrous thing I've read on here...perhaps ever.
And great post Atlanta Warrior - COULD NOT AGREE MORE WITH ALL YOU WROTE.
Love me some Buzz.
Love the direction of the program.
Don't have a single quibble about recruiting. Not one.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 23, 2013, 09:34:23 AM
We could still be good. As good? Unlikely. Better? Nearly impossible.
So last year was Marquette's ceiling in terms of accomplishments?
(http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/392/685/a9c.png)
Quote from: Golden Avalanche on October 23, 2013, 10:13:51 AM
So last year was Marquette's ceiling in terms of accomplishments?
If you consider a conference championship in a brutal conference and an elite 8 appearance sub par.......
The only way to do better is win one more game and our board sage points out frequently when it suits his point that the tourney is a crapshoot.
So I will accept conference championships and elite 8's as a ceiling. Because from there, it is just luck of the draw or the bounce to win it all.
Quote from: Ners on October 23, 2013, 10:11:53 AM
To think MU could better post Buzz is the most ludicrous thing I've read on here...perhaps ever.
As I just said in another comment, I loves me some Buzz. And having said that ...
Of course we could do better post-Buzz. I mean, what if the next coach we hire -- whether that's next spring or 15 springs from now -- is as good as or better than Buzz? It's not impossible. Seven years ago, who around these parts even knew who Buzz Williams was? How many folks were certain he'd be as good as or better than Crean?
There are always plenty of good coaches out there. Our administration found three in O'Neill, Crean and Buzz, and also whiffed a few times. The trick is to find the next Buzz and avoid the next Dukiet!
To say that's impossible and ludicrous is shortsighted.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 23, 2013, 09:34:23 AM
We could still be good. As good? Unlikely. Better? Nearly impossible.
Suck it up boys, it's all downhill from here.
Quote from: MU82 on October 23, 2013, 10:18:18 AM
As I just said in another comment, I loves me some Buzz. And having said that ...
Of course we could do better post-Buzz. I mean, what if the next coach we hire -- whether that's next spring or 15 springs from now -- is as good as or better than Buzz? It's not impossible. Seven years ago, who around these parts even knew who Buzz Williams was? How many folks were certain he'd be as good as or better than Crean?
There are always plenty of good coaches out there. Our administration found three in O'Neill, Crean and Buzz, and also whiffed a few times. The trick is to find the next Buzz and avoid the next Dukiet!
To say that's impossible and ludicrous is shortsighted.
Yes possible. But our local coach expert would say it's about as possible as an asteroid striking you today.
some of the comments remind me of how we tell our kids that the Packers really sucked for many years and they ought to enjoy the good times while they last
whew, people overthink way too much on here
Quote from: Ners on October 23, 2013, 10:11:53 AM
You have a history of curious (at best) posts. The above, just eliminates any doubt that you like to troll.
For those who think MU the university/facilities is/are the draw - you couldn't be more mistaken. Top 100 kids choose a college due to: A)Who the head coach is. B)History sending players to the NBA - which is an offshoot of the coaching staff's development skills. C) Location - climate, girls. D) Academic profile of university.
MU has done better than Buzz 1 time in its history - Al McGuire - a legend. Buzz is only 5 years in, and very well can meet/exceed Al's accomplishments if he stays at MU 10-15 years. To think MU could better post Buzz is the most ludicrous thing I've read on here...perhaps ever.
And great post Atlanta Warrior - COULD NOT AGREE MORE WITH ALL YOU WROTE.
Wow. You've gone a bit off the deep end. Sunbelt was not saying we would be better
because Buzz is gone. Jesus Christ, have we won a freaking national championship I'm not aware of?
Quote from: melissasmooth on October 23, 2013, 10:25:34 AM
whew, people overthink way too much on here
It took you 35 posts to figure that out?
Quote from: MU82 on October 23, 2013, 10:18:18 AM
As I just said in another comment, I loves me some Buzz. And having said that ...
Of course we could do better post-Buzz. I mean, what if the next coach we hire -- whether that's next spring or 15 springs from now -- is as good as or better than Buzz? It's not impossible. Seven years ago, who around these parts even knew who Buzz Williams was? How many folks were certain he'd be as good as or better than Crean?
There are always plenty of good coaches out there. Our administration found three in O'Neill, Crean and Buzz, and also whiffed a few times. The trick is to find the next Buzz and avoid the next Dukiet!
To say that's impossible and ludicrous is shortsighted.
That's a "what if" scenario I really hope we don't have to find out. Let's face it...at the time of the Buzz hire, MU was rebuffed by: Tony Bennett, Anthony Grant, Keno Davis. Proven coaches have never been lining up at the door to come coach at MU...never...Crean, KO, and Buzz had 1 year combined of prior head coaching experience before coming to MU.
I have great MU pride, yet am a realist, and know that we caught lightning in a bottle with Buzz (and Al) previously. Crean of course was very good too, yet left MU thinking he'd reached his ceiling, and would have an easier, better go of it at IU - which I certainly can't blame him for, nor disagree with him/his rationale.
Of course nothing is impossible, but I'd be happy to wager any sum of $$$ that MU won't get a better coach, recruiter, representative of the university, than Buzz Williams in my lifetime - which hopefully lasts another 40 years.
Quote from: MU82 on October 23, 2013, 10:18:18 AM
As I just said in another comment, I loves me some Buzz. And having said that ...
Of course we could do better post-Buzz. I mean, what if the next coach we hire -- whether that's next spring or 15 springs from now -- is as good as or better than Buzz? It's not impossible. Seven years ago, who around these parts even knew who Buzz Williams was? How many folks were certain he'd be as good as or better than Crean?
There are always plenty of good coaches out there. Our administration found three in O'Neill, Crean and Buzz, and also whiffed a few times. The trick is to find the next Buzz and avoid the next Dukiet!
To say that's impossible and ludicrous is shortsighted.
Agree. Love Buzz, hope he never chooses to leave MU, but to assert that this is as good as Marquette could ever do is silly.
Buzz has done a terrific job, but I don't think - given the school's commitment to basketball - a similar performance is beyond the reach of some of the other great young coaches out there.
Quote from: Archies Bat on October 23, 2013, 10:30:33 AM
It took you 35 posts to figure that out?
yeah, i'm a little slow
Quote from: Ners on October 23, 2013, 10:32:31 AM
That's a "what if" scenario I really hope we don't have to find out. Let's face it...at the time of the Buzz hire, MU was rebuffed by: Tony Bennett, Anthony Grant, Keno Davis.
Actually, people close to the administration have told me Bennett was somewhat interested. Not sure about Grant. I know for certain that MU never was interested in Keno, much less were "rebuffed" by him.
the administration focused on Buzz as their guy pretty quickly, much to the consternation of some around here.
Quote from: melissasmooth on October 23, 2013, 10:34:27 AM
yeah, i'm a little slow
may be slow but you are smooth.......
Quote from: Pakuni on October 23, 2013, 10:32:41 AM
Agree. Love Buzz, hope he never chooses to leave MU, but to assert that this is as good as Marquette could ever do is silly.
Buzz has done a terrific job, but I don't think - given the school's commitment to basketball - a similar performance is beyond the reach of some of the other great young coaches out there.
I said:Good, yes. As good, unlikely.
You say that if we're lucky enough to locate and sign one of the great young coaches out there that a similar performance isn't beyond our reach.
Isn't that longhand for unlikely?
Quote from: Pakuni on October 23, 2013, 10:41:49 AM
Actually, people close to the administration have told me Bennett was somewhat interested. Not sure about Grant. I know for certain that MU never was interested in Keno, much less were "rebuffed" by him.
the administration focused on Buzz as their guy pretty quickly, much to the consternation of some around here.
Kind of goes along with what I heard on Bennett... he would have been interested, but would have had to be pursued. Not just a yes, I'm interested type of deal. More of a not really interested in moving, I like it where I'm at... but maybe, tell me more... and then when it was clear MU was moving in a different direction, feelers were put out more intensely from his side towards MU.
Glad we didn't spend a bunch of time going after him, as Buzz was the answer and we are lucky that those in power were willing to stick their necks out and put their reputations (and jobs for some) on the line taking a chance on an unproven commodity in Buzz. And they did it quickly.
Quote from: Aughnanure on October 23, 2013, 10:18:30 AM
Suck it up boys, it's all downhill from here.
Why? Last I looked, Buzz is still our coach and we're still trending higher. He leaves,though, the chances that the trend stalls or recedes is likely. That's not doom and gloom, just common sense. Guys like Buzz don't grow on trees. If they did MU would never had seen the likes of Hank, Rick, Dukiet, KO, Deane, and TC between Al and Buzz nor all the guys that came before Al. Home runs are always possible but they're also rare.
If MU keeps getting 3 seeds or better, we'll be fine. Those top 12 teams win, like, all of the championships.
Quote from: Golden Avalanche on October 23, 2013, 10:13:51 AM
So last year was Marquette's ceiling in terms of accomplishments?
Not necessarily. I wouldn't sell Buzz short.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 23, 2013, 10:54:52 AM
I said:Good, yes. As good, unlikely.
You say that if we're lucky enough to locate and sign one of the great young coaches out there that a similar performance isn't beyond our reach.
Isn't that longhand for unlikely?
Well, for starters I wasn't responding to you, but agreeing with the response to Ners' post stating "To think MU could (be?) better post Buzz is the most ludicrous thing I've read on here...perhaps ever."
That said, three of the last four times MU went out to hire a coach, they've landed a good young one. We can get into another pointless discussion over who's been better but I'm not trolling for a fight (unlike some), and it's kind of tough to objectively determine, IMO, because they all started at different points with different circumstances. But I think we can agree that O'Neill, Crean and Buzz all found success at MU.
The argument that Buzz is doing something nearly impossible or unheard of - i.e. winning at a school with a tradition of success, top-notch facilities, solid conference affiliation, great fan support and a massive financial investment in basketball - is a stupid one. It would be more surprising to see a coach fail under those circumstances than succeed.
Quote from: LittleMurs on October 23, 2013, 10:08:08 AM
+1,000 (+10,000, no longer available)
I think +10,000 should be available but only when bigs are being discussed ;D
Okay, while I agree with the bulk of what's been said here, and agree with tower's assessment that a lineup without bigs could contend for a NC (considering what Buzz has done with post players in the 6'4" - 6'7" range), I do get where the critics are coming from.
To the point that Marquette will never be a blue blood...maybe true, maybe not, but what is unquestionably true is that 35-40 years ago, Marquette was a blue blood. We were there with UCLA, UNC, Kentucky, and the other great programs of the day. We went to Final Fours, won major tournaments (yes, the NIT was major way back when), and brought in recruiting classes that were the envy of 99% of the college basketball world.
While it's easy to complain about willie's constant diatribe, the comparative world that Al created is nearly impossible to live up to, and until Buzz gets us to the level of being one of the true "It" programs, some people will be disappointed. I do believe it is attainable. I feel this year's team, given a good draw and consistently smart PG play (not necessarily outstanding, just smart) could go to the Final Four. And as guys like Taylor, DuWil, JJJ, Burton, Cohen, Harris, and Noskowiak develop, the injection of one or two true blue-blood players (Stone and Matthews) or one Wade-like diamond in the rough (maybe Shayok or Pierce) could give us enough talent that Buzz could guide Marquette to a national title.
But for people who live and breathe 1977 and the rest of the Al era, I understand their desire to return to that level. It's been a long 36 years. Hell, I was in Minneapolis when D-Wade had his triple double, and that seems like forever ago now. When you experience great success, you yearn to return to it, and when you get so close you can touch it, you want it even more (especially when the d-bag Orange are the ones that knock you out).
I really think if Buzz stays, we can get there. Maybe we won't recruit like Kentucky, Kansas, or UCLA, but they have advantages this administration isn't willing to offer. But with Buzz as the coach and regular top-15 classes, one or two of the right players buying in could make all the difference.
Also, Lenny was only saying that last year would be as good as it gets IF Buzz left. I don't think in any way he was looking at the Elite 8 as Buzz's ceiling. Though I think depending on the circumstance, Buzz (whom I love and never want to leave) might be more replaceable than most people think.
Buzz would be very hard to replace....but no one is irreplaceable.
Quote from: brewcity77 on October 23, 2013, 11:41:35 AM
Okay, while I agree with the bulk of what's been said here, and agree with tower's assessment that a lineup without bigs could contend for a NC (considering what Buzz has done with post players in the 6'4" - 6'7" range), I do get where the critics are coming from.
To the point that Marquette will never be a blue blood...maybe true, maybe not, but what is unquestionably true is that 35-40 years ago, Marquette was a blue blood. We were there with UCLA, UNC, Kentucky, and the other great programs of the day. We went to Final Fours, won major tournaments (yes, the NIT was major way back when), and brought in recruiting classes that were the envy of 99% of the college basketball world.
While it's easy to complain about willie's constant diatribe, the comparative world that Al created is nearly impossible to live up to, and until Buzz gets us to the level of being one of the true "It" programs, some people will be disappointed. I do believe it is attain't I dimble. I feel this year's team, given a good draw and consistently smart PG play (not necessarily outstanding, just smart) could go to the Final Four. And as guys like Taylor, DuWil, JJJ, Burton, Cohen, Harris, and Noskowiak develop, the injection of one or two true blue-blood players (Stone and Matthews) or one Wade-like diamond in the rough (maybe Shayok or Pierce) could give us enough talent that Buzz could guide Marquette to a national title.
But for people who live and breathe 1977 and the rest of the Al era, I understand their desire to return to that level. It's been a long 36 years. Hell, I was in Minneapolis when D-Wade had his triple double, and that seems like forever ago now. When you experience great success, you yearn to return to it, and when you get so close you can touch it, you want it even more (especially when the d-bag Orange are the ones that knock you out).
I really think if Buzz stays, we can get there. Maybe we won't recruit like Kentucky, Kansas, or UCLA, but they have advantages this administration isn't willing to offer. But with Buzz as the coach and regular top-15 classes, one or two of the right players buying in could make all the difference.
Also, Lenny was only saying that last year would be as good as it gets IF Buzz left. I don't think in any way he was looking at the Elite 8 as Buzz's ceiling. Though I think depending on the circumstance, Buzz (whom I love and never want to leave) might be more replaceable than most people think.
+100
I grew up on stories of Al and the 1970s. In my lifetime, 2003 is the closest I have ever seen us get to a national championship. To myself and other young alumni, it seems like we are in our prime but still have higher aspirations for future. We know how good we were in the 1970s, but we can't really understand how good we were with Al. If that makes any sense
Quote from: Pakuni on October 23, 2013, 11:13:40 AM
Well, for starters I wasn't responding to you, but agreeing with the response to Ners' post stating "To think MU could (be?) better post Buzz is the most ludicrous thing I've read on here...perhaps ever."
That said, three of the last four times MU went out to hire a coach, they've landed a good young one. We can get into another pointless discussion over who's been better but I'm not trolling for a fight (unlike some), and it's kind of tough to objectively determine, IMO, because they all started at different points with different circumstances. But I think we can agree that O'Neill, Crean and Buzz all found success at MU.
The argument that Buzz is doing something nearly impossible or unheard of - i.e. winning at a school with a tradition of success, top-notch facilities, solid conference affiliation, great fan support and a massive financial investment in basketball - is a stupid one. It would be more surprising to see a coach fail under those circumstances than succeed.
I'm not looking for a fight. It just seemed contradictory to me that you agree with MU82, who said that "of course we could do better post Buzz" but then wrote that if all goes right in a post Buzz era a similar performance to his wouldn't be out of reach, which seems to fit more with a maybe we would be as good but all the stars would have to align (unlikely) scenario.
I guess we just disagree in our assessment of Buzz. If he's on a par with a KO or TC, no doubt he can be replaced and MU can reasonably expect the program to improve after he leaves. I think he's much better than that, a one %er like Shaka Smart or Brad Stevens. To me, those types are few and far between. The odds against a program improving when a guy like that leaves are very, very small.
Quote from: Sunbelt15 on October 23, 2013, 08:59:08 AM
Post Buzz, we could still be good, if not better.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 23, 2013, 09:34:23 AM
We could still be good. As good? Unlikely. Better? Nearly impossible.
Quote from: Golden Avalanche on October 23, 2013, 10:13:51 AM
So last year was Marquette's ceiling in terms of accomplishments?
Golden Avalanche,
You evidently don't realize that your question presupposes that last year was Buzz's last year. News flash, he's still here.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 23, 2013, 12:17:22 PM
I guess we just disagree in our assessment of Buzz. If he's on a par with a KO or TC, no doubt he can be replaced and MU can reasonably expect the program to improve after he leaves. I think he's much better than that, a one %er like Shaka Smart or Brad Stevens. To me, those types are few and far between. The odds against a program improving when a guy like that leaves are very, very small.
I don't think we disagree at all in our assessment of Buzz. We both think he's done a terrific job and would be tough for MU to replace.
I think we disagree with our assessment of
Marquette.
You seem to think MU's an otherwise decent program that caught lightning in a bottle with Buzz and shouldn't (couldn't?) hope to replicate his success with another coach should he leave.
I think MU's more of a Xavier-type program, perennially good with the ability to make trips to the Sweet 16s and Elite 8s under different coaches.
Bottom line: I don't want Buzz to leave. It would suck. But if he does, Marquette will survive and, if they make the right hire, continue to have a successful basketball program.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 23, 2013, 12:40:12 PM
I don't think we disagree at all in our assessment of Buzz. We both think he's done a terrific job and would be tough for MU to replace.
I think we disagree with our assessment of Marquette.
You think MU's an otherwise decent program that caught lightning in a bottle with Buzz and shouldn't (couldn't?) hope to replicate his success with another coach should he leave.
I think MU's more of a Xavier-type program, perennially good with the ability to make trips to the Sweet 16s and Elite 8s under different coaches.
Bottom line: I don't want Buzz to leave. It would suck. But if he does, Marquette will survive and, if they make the right hire, continue to have a successful basketball program.
Here's where I (and maybe Lenny, too) come out. If Buzz moves on, Marquette will be fine, but not quite as good as it would have been had Buzz stayed. Personally, I think that the duplicating Crean's performance would be right around the upper limit for the next hire.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 23, 2013, 12:40:12 PM
I don't think we disagree at all in our assessment of Buzz. We both think he's done a terrific job and would be tough for MU to replace.
I think we disagree with our assessment of Marquette.
You think MU's an otherwise decent program that caught lightning in a bottle with Buzz and shouldn't (couldn't?) hope to replicate his success with another coach should he leave.
I think MU's more of a Xavier-type program, perennially good with the ability to make trips to the Sweet 16s and Elite 8s under different coaches.
Bottom line: I don't want Buzz to leave. It would suck. But if he does, Marquette will survive and, if they make the right hire, continue to have a successful basketball program.
Generally agree with a lot of your takes Pakuni - yet disagree with your feelings on a "program." A program is simply an extension of the Head Coach - it has virtually nothing to do with the university...great facilities, an NBA arena and an administration that invests heavily on athletics...is still not formula for success. Lots of schools have all the above yet don't perform.
Xavier was GREAT under Sean Miller...and guess what, since Sean Miller's gone to Arizona - Arizona once again has become really good. Arizona was great under Lute Olson, yet faltered after he left....Miller comes in..and once again they are bordering elite. Xavier, on the other hand, has been trending downward since Miller left - Mack's recruits haven't been to the level of Miller. Xavier and Arizona are still the same "program" with regard to facilities, admin commitment - yet why the drop in performance at Xavier once Miller left and Arizona once Lute Olson? Just don't see Xavier being a perennially good program capable of Sweet 16 and Elite 8's with just anybody as a head coach...takes a special talent.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on October 23, 2013, 11:58:46 AM
+100
I grew up on stories of Al and the 1970s. In my lifetime, 2003 is the closest I have ever seen us get to a national championship. To myself and other young alumni, it seems like we are in our prime but still have higher aspirations for future. We know how good we were in the 1970s, but we can't really understand how good we were with Al. If that makes any sense
I grew up during the Al era and many of my favorite all-time MU players are from back then (Tatum, Ellis, Chones, Walton, etc.). But the landscape was completely different back then.
1. Guys stayed 4 years. Al's system was senior based. He wanted his seniors to be the stars. Other guys had to fill their role. The only exceptions were the true superstars like Butch Lee who was a junior in 1977) - although Al considered Bo Ellis, a senior, as the team leader. As a sophomore. Lee was just 4th on the team in minutes played He also always had role players. Bill Neary played more minutes at forward than either Bernard Toone or Ulice Payne in '77 despite averaging less than 2 points and 3 rebounds a game.
2. No conference affiliation. In 1977 when we won it all, we played
ONE team that was ranked in the top 10 during the regular season. Quite a difference from the years in the Big East. I really think those team's records would have been not nearly as good with a schedule like we play now.
3. While we look back fondly on the old players, there were probably only 3 that were thought of as good players in the NBA - Chones, Lucas, and Thompson.
While things have changed greatly, Buzz' accomplishments deserve to be ranked even with Al's - the one big difference being the National championship. We forget that Al's teams won more than 2 games in the NCAA tournament only twice in his career
Quote from: Ners on October 23, 2013, 12:46:45 PM
Generally agree with a lot of your takes Pakuni - yet disagree with your feelings on a "program." A program is simply an extension of the Head Coach - it has virtually nothing to do with the university...great facilities, an NBA arena and an administration that invests heavily on athletics...is still not formula for success. Lots of schools have all the above yet don't perform.
Xavier was GREAT under Sean Miller...and guess what, since Sean Miller's gone to Arizona - Arizona once again has become really good. Arizona was great under Lute Olson, yet faltered after he left....Miller comes in..and once again they are bordering elite. Xavier, on the other hand, has been trending downward since Miller left - Mack's recruits haven't been to the level of Miller. Xavier and Arizona are still the same "program" with regard to facilities, admin commitment - yet why the drop in performance at Xavier once Miller left and Arizona once Lute Olson? Just don't see Xavier being a perennially good program capable of Sweet 16 and Elite 8's with just anybody as a head coach...takes a special talent.
I think this is certainly true--we've seen plenty of examples in the last decade of blue blood programs that have faltered under the wrong coach--despite great facilities, support, etc.
However, I think the important point is that those aspects of the program can be important aspect for attracting (and keeping) the right coach(es). Marquette has done a lot in the last decade of improving (or rehabilitating) its status as a legit basketball program, which should help it to weather the storm if Buzz ever leaves--hopefully it gives us some sort of leg up on being able to attract the next new coaching star--whether someone that already found success somewhere else or one that is ready to burst onto the scene.
This doesn't mean that MU will necessarily make the "right" choice (there will always be coaches that seem to have potential that might not work out), but at least we'll hopefully have the chance to pursue someone we are interested in--much like recruiting.
I can't think of a current coach that would come to MU that I would prefer to Buzz. And I suspect that the succession plan is in place.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on October 23, 2013, 11:58:46 AM
+100
I grew up on stories of Al and the 1970s. In my lifetime, 2003 is the closest I have ever seen us get to a national championship. To myself and other young alumni, it seems like we are in our prime but still have higher aspirations for future. We know how good we were in the 1970s, but we can't really understand how good we were with Al. If that makes any sense
We were a top 5 program (not team, program) under Al. The money and the competition are much greater today, making a return to that status nearly impossible IMO. Kentucky, Kansas, Duke, UNC and UCLA would be very difficult to dislodge. Off the top of my head, Michigan St.,Syracuse, Louisville, Indiana and Arizona are probably 6-10. Right now we're in that next group that includes Ohio St, Michigan, Georgetown, UConn, Florida, Nova and others. Top 20, closing in on the top 15. As hard as it was to go from maybe 60 to 30 under TC it's even harder to go from 30 to 15. A move into the bottom of the top 10 is probably our ceiling even with a top young coach like Buzz - lose him and expectations, for me anyway, slide a little.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 23, 2013, 01:45:57 PM
We were a top 5 program (not team, program) under Al. The money and the competition are much greater today, making a return to that status nearly impossible IMO. Kentucky, Kansas, Duke, UNC and UCLA would be very difficult to dislodge. Off the top of my head, Michigan St.,Syracuse, Louisville, Indiana and Arizona are probably 6-10. Right now we're in that next group that includes Ohio St, Michigan, Georgetown, UConn, Florida, Nova and others. Top 20, closing in on the top 15. As hard as it was to go from maybe 60 to 30 under TC it's even harder to go from 30 to 15. A move into the bottom of the top 10 is probably our ceiling even with a top young coach like Buzz - lose him and expectations, for me anyway, slide a little.
Calling MU a top 60 program just prior to Crean seems overly generous to me.
Quote from: Ners on October 23, 2013, 12:46:45 PM
Generally agree with a lot of your takes Pakuni - yet disagree with your feelings on a "program." A program is simply an extension of the Head Coach - it has virtually nothing to do with the university...great facilities, an NBA arena and an administration that invests heavily on athletics...is still not formula for success. Lots of schools have all the above yet don't perform.
Xavier was GREAT under Sean Miller...and guess what, since Sean Miller's gone to Arizona - Arizona once again has become really good. Arizona was great under Lute Olson, yet faltered after he left....Miller comes in..and once again they are bordering elite. Xavier, on the other hand, has been trending downward since Miller left - Mack's recruits haven't been to the level of Miller. Xavier and Arizona are still the same "program" with regard to facilities, admin commitment - yet why the drop in performance at Xavier once Miller left and Arizona once Lute Olson? Just don't see Xavier being a perennially good program capable of Sweet 16 and Elite 8's with just anybody as a head coach...takes a special talent.
I'm not dismissing the importance of the coach. I'm dismissing the notion that Buzz Williams is somehow uniquely qualified to succeed at Marquette, or that the level of success he's attained here is beyond the reach of nearly anyone else. I think if you put Shaka Smart, Sean Miller, Josh Pastner, John Groce or a few others at MU they could mirror Buzz's success. I recognize those guys aren't dime-a-dozen (to borrow an old phrase), but they're not impossible to find either.
And, just to be clear, I don't want to have to find out.
But I do disagree with the idea that lots of schools have comparable facilities and investment as Marquette without performing. Very few schools invest in basketball the way Marquette does, and those that do are almost all perennial winners (top 10 spenders, in order: Duke, Louisville, Kentucky, Marquette, Arkansas, Michigan St., Texas, Indiana, Syracuse, Pitt).
Also, I think you're being too hard on Chris Mack. He made the Sweet 16 two of his first three years, and while Xavier had a down year last year, there were extenuating circumstances (Dez Wells being expelled, Mark Lyons transfer). They've got some good young players returning and a top 20 recruiting class for 2014 that could get better, as they seem to be a favorite for top 50 Trevon Bluiett.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 23, 2013, 12:40:12 PM
I don't think we disagree at all in our assessment of Buzz. We both think he's done a terrific job and would be tough for MU to replace.
I think we disagree with our assessment of Marquette.
You seem to think MU's an otherwise decent program that caught lightning in a bottle with Buzz and shouldn't (couldn't?) hope to replicate his success with another coach should he leave.
I think MU's more of a Xavier-type program, perennially good with the ability to make trips to the Sweet 16s and Elite 8s under different coaches.
Bottom line: I don't want Buzz to leave. It would suck. But if he does, Marquette will survive and, if they make the right hire, continue to have a successful basketball program.
Here are my expectations (roughly speaking) for MU(post Buzz) as a program (facilities, history and commitment non withstanding):
1.Bad hire = a sub top 50 program
2.Good hire = a 25-40 ranked program
3.Elite hire = a 10-25 ranked program
I think the odds favor continued success (2) but are very much against Buzz-like success (3).
Quote from: LittleMurs on October 23, 2013, 01:49:47 PM
Calling MU a top 60 program just prior to Crean seems overly generous to me.
Maybe, but even if we were 100 moving from there to 30 isn't as hard as going from 30 to 15. The extra 40 programs you're jumping aren't very competitive.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 23, 2013, 02:10:21 PM
Maybe, but even if we were 100 moving from there to 30 isn't as hard as going from 30 to 15. The extra 40 programs you're jumping aren't very competitive.
Quite so, except maybe for the maybe.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 23, 2013, 02:07:20 PM
Here are my expectations (roughly speaking) for MU(post Buzz) as a program (facilities, history and commitment non withstanding):
1.Bad hire = a sub top 50 program
2.Good hire = a 25-40 ranked program
3.Elite hire = a 10-25 ranked program
I think the odds favor continued success (2) but are very much against Buzz-like success (3).
That would, for all intents, make O'Neill, Crean and Buzz "elite" hires, or at least darn close.
MU was a top 20 team O'Neill's final year, were ranked in the top 25 for much of Crean's tenure after he had a chance to bring in his own players (i.e. post 2001). That's obviously continued during the Buzz era.
If three of MU's last four hires have been "elite," (or very close, under your criteria) why are you so skeptical about them doing it again, especially now when the job is
far more attractive to an up-and-coming coach than when O'Neill and Crean came aboard?
I agree and understand that it's far from a sure thing - one of several reasons I'd like to keep Buzz - but there's nothing in MU's recent history that suggests we should be terribly pessimistic about it.
Quote from: brandx on October 23, 2013, 01:05:38 PM
We forget that Al's teams won more than 2 games in the NCAA tournament only twice in his career
Because there were far fewer teams in the Tournament. In 1974 when MU went to the Championship game there were only 25 teams.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 23, 2013, 02:07:20 PM
Here are my expectations (roughly speaking) for MU(post Buzz) as a program (facilities, history and commitment non withstanding):
1.Bad hire = a sub top 50 program
2.Good hire = a 25-40 ranked program
3.Elite hire = a 10-25 ranked program
I think the odds favor continued success (2) but are very much against Buzz-like success (3).
Ah, but what constitutes an "elite" hire? Was Buzz an elite hire? Lotsa folks sure didn't think so the day it happened!
Given the growth of our program, I would guess we'd be able to attract elite coaching talent should the job open up -- even if that elite gentleman is an assistant coach plenty of folks have never heard of.
Of course, this might not be an issue for another decade or two ... but by all means, let's keep talking about Buzz leaving as if it's a foregone conclusion. (Present company included.)
Quote from: keefe on October 23, 2013, 02:32:22 PM
Because there were far fewer teams in the Tournament. In 1974 when MU went to the Championship game there were only 25 teams.
A pertinent point.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to post incorrectly about it."
Quote from: Pakuni on October 23, 2013, 02:30:37 PM
That would, for all intents, make O'Neill, Crean and Buzz "elite" hires, or at least darn close.
MU was a top 20 team O'Neill's final year, were ranked in the top 25 for much of Crean's tenure after he had a chance to bring in his own players (i.e. post 2001). That's obviously continued during the Buzz era.
If three of MU's last four hires have been "elite," (or very close, under your criteria) why are you so skeptical about them doing it again, especially now when the job is far more attractive to an up-and-coming coach than when O'Neill and Crean came aboard?
I agree and understand that it's far from a sure thing - one of several reasons I'd like to keep Buzz - but there's nothing in MU's recent history that suggests we should be terribly pessimistic about it.
I don't mean to nitpick,but while KO and TC had teams in the top 25, I would put the program between 25-40 in their respective tenures. So, good, but a notch below elite.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 23, 2013, 02:50:07 PM
I don't mean to nitpick,but while KO and TC had teams in the top 25, I would put the program between 25-40 in their respective tenures. So, good, but a notch below elite.
That's fair, but I think - especially in KO's case - you have to make these judgments while acknowledging the state of the program they inherited. Which is why it's pretty much impossible to compare them objectively.
That said, MU still was a top 20 program when O'Neill left and finished in the top 25 four of Crean's last seven seasons.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on October 23, 2013, 11:57:25 AM
Buzz would be very hard to replace....but no one is irreplaceable.
End. Of. Thread.
Everything else is just talkin'.
Quote from: LittleMurs on October 23, 2013, 02:45:47 PM
A pertinent point.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to post incorrectly about it."
Not posted incorrectly. I realize there were anywhere from 24 - 32 teams in the dance during Al's tenure. My statement that he won more than 2 games twice is factual.
My point was that Buzz is getting close to being on the same level as Al. What Buzz needs to do is keep the program at an elite or near-elite level for 5 more years for the comparison to be valid.
Quote from: MU82 on October 23, 2013, 02:39:23 PM
Ah, but what constitutes an "elite" hire? Was Buzz an elite hire? Lotsa folks sure didn't think so the day it happened!
Given the growth of our program, I would guess we'd be able to attract elite coaching talent should the job open up -- even if that elite gentleman is an assistant coach plenty of folks have never heard of.
Of course, this might not be an issue for another decade or two ... but by all means, let's keep talking about Buzz leaving as if it's a foregone conclusion. (Present company included.)
Elite hires can only be judged in retrospect. John Wooden, Al McGuire, Bob Knight, Shaka Smart, Brad Stevens and Buzz Williams had nothing in their resumes that screamed elite. In Buzz's case, Steve Cottingham would have had much more "cover" if a Chris Lowery, Bob McKillop, Tony Bennett or Keno Davis would have been given the job. Thank you, Steve.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on October 23, 2013, 03:05:31 PM
End. Of. Thread.
Everything else is just talkin'.
But it will go on and on
Quote from: melissasmooth on October 23, 2013, 03:11:50 PM
But it will go on and on
And you'll contribute to it, if making no point other than a snarky comment can be construed as a contribution.
Quote from: melissasmooth on October 23, 2013, 03:11:50 PM
But it will go on and on
It is what we do. Along with baiting Chicos. Reminiscing about how lucky we all are to have survived at MU. Insulting Wisconsin. Basically acting juvenile. But your IQ doesn't sink nearly as fast as it does when you read the responses to your average news website article.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 23, 2013, 01:45:57 PM
Kentucky, Kansas, Duke, UNC and UCLA would be very difficult to dislodge. Off the top of my head, Michigan St.,Syracuse, Louisville, Indiana and Arizona are probably 6-10.
Pretty fair list. If Alford doesn't turn things around at UCLA, they could fall from that top status. I also wonder how MSU, Syracuse, and Louisville when their current coaches retire. All are successful programs, but their success seems to be more centered on the coach (Heathcote, Izzo, Boeheim, Crum, Pitino) than the program itself.
I think Marquette can get into that second tier. I'd probably put us just below those schools right now. I fully believe Buzz (or another coach, if he sustained or increased our current level) could get us there. But to get into that top tier, you're probably looking at sustained success for at least 25 years coupled with 1-2 coaches after Buzz keeping it going. To get to that second tier, it works for the coach to be bigger than the program. To get to the top tier, the program has to be bigger than the coach.
If nothing else, we do spend like a blueblood...
Quote from: Ners on October 23, 2013, 10:11:53 AM
You have a history of curious (at best) posts. The above, just eliminates any doubt that you like to troll.
For those who think MU the university/facilities is/are the draw - you couldn't be more mistaken. Top 100 kids choose a college due to: A)Who the head coach is. B)History sending players to the NBA - which is an offshoot of the coaching staff's development skills. C) Location - climate, girls. D) Academic profile of university.
MU has done better than Buzz 1 time in its history - Al McGuire - a legend. Buzz is only 5 years in, and very well can meet/exceed Al's accomplishments if he stays at MU 10-15 years. To think MU could better post Buzz is the most ludicrous thing I've read on here...perhaps ever.
And great post Atlanta Warrior - COULD NOT AGREE MORE WITH ALL YOU WROTE.
Dude, you're a little too sensitive. Obviously, you love Buzz and feels he can do no wrong. I like Buzz but not in love with him. "In Buzz I Trust" is not my motto until he brings us a championship. Sorry you thing I'm a troll with curious post. Just a fan of MU.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 23, 2013, 02:10:21 PM
Maybe, but even if we were 100 moving from there to 30 isn't as hard as going from 30 to 15. The extra 40 programs you're jumping aren't very competitive.
Actually, once you're already at 30, its probably easier to get to 15, because it only takes only one or two players--many of which are legitimately considering you. And once one elite recruit opens the door, it becomes easier to get the next, and the next and the next.
Meanwhile, if it were easy to get to 30, teams like DePaul, St. Johns, Seton Hall, Providence would all be there. Yet they've all been struggling for years.
Ask yourself this--which is more likely?
A DePaul or Seton Hall turning the entire program around, becomming a mirror image of Marquette, and becomming capable of running up 8 tournament appearances?
Or Marquette landing a player like Diamond Stone for 2015, and then following him up with a Jayson Tatum in 2016, which would propel us into the top 5 right about the time Boeheim, Pitino, Coach K are approaching retirement?
And you could say the same for any consistent 15-30 team. Any one of them is just one elite-level recruit in two consectuive years away from cracking that top 10/top 15 barrier.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 23, 2013, 02:07:20 PM
Here are my expectations (roughly speaking) for MU(post Buzz) as a program (facilities, history and commitment non withstanding):
1.Bad hire = a sub top 50 program
2.Good hire = a 25-40 ranked program
3.Elite hire = a 10-25 ranked program
I think the odds favor continued success (2) but are very much against Buzz-like success (3).
Better option: Keep Buzz for 10-15 years... He retires after winning the 2024 National Championship with a history including 10 elite 8, 6 Final Four, etc...
Quote from: Sunbelt15 on October 23, 2013, 08:59:08 AM
Post Buzz, we could still be good, if not better.
Quote from: Sunbelt15 on October 23, 2013, 06:46:51 PM
Dude, you're a little too sensitive. Obviously, you love Buzz and feels he can do no wrong. I like Buzz but not in love with him. "In Buzz I Trust" is not my motto until he brings us a championship. Sorry you thing I'm a troll with curious post. Just a fan of MU.
Its not sensitivity, as much as it was a reaction to stupidity. I don't disagree with you in that MU could still be good post Buzz - but if you think MU could be better - that's just stupid. Buzz has produced the best results for MU since Al, and has a loaded roster moving forward.
The chances MU would get a better coach, recruiter, representative than Buzz are slim to none. As for not being in the "In Buzz I Trust" camp till he brings MU a national championship - that too seems stupid and a great way to make being a "fan" of MU a maddening experience. If you can't savor Sweet 16s, Elite 8's and will only believe we have a GREAT coach if he can bring a National Championship to MU is quite shortsighted. Of course every MU fan would love a National Championship - DUH - but to not have supreme confidence and trust in our coach if he doesn't deliver one?? Ludicrous.
Quote from: The Equalizer on October 23, 2013, 07:48:50 PM
Actually, once you're already at 30, its probably easier to get to 15, because it only takes only one or two players--many of which are legitimately considering you. And once one elite recruit opens the door, it becomes easier to get the next, and the next and the next.
Meanwhile, if it were easy to get to 30, teams like DePaul, St. Johns, Seton Hall, Providence would all be there. Yet they've all been struggling for years.
Ask yourself this--which is more likely?
A DePaul or Seton Hall turning the entire program around, becomming a mirror image of Marquette, and becomming capable of running up 8 tournament appearances?
Or Marquette landing a player like Diamond Stone for 2015, and then following him up with a Jayson Tatum in 2016, which would propel us into the top 5 right about the time Boeheim, Pitino, Coach K are approaching retirement?
And you could say the same for any consistent 15-30 team. Any one of them is just one elite-level recruit in two consectuive years away from cracking that top 10/top 15 barrier.
I agree with all of this. Land Diamond Stone and it signals a whole new era in Marquette basketball. We move from the third highest tier of basketball to the second tier. Getting to blue blood status would take years upon years of work....but it's not out of the question
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on October 23, 2013, 10:21:42 PM
I agree with all of this. Land Diamond Stone and it signals a whole new era in Marquette basketball. We move from the third highest tier of basketball to the second tier. Getting to blue blood status would take years upon years of work....but it's not out of the question
Landing one recruit won't signal that. Michael Beasley didn't turn KSU into a top-10 program. Neither did OJ Mayo and Demar DeRozan in back to back years for USC. It will continue to come down to rankings, results in March, and putting players in the NBA. If Jajuan Johnson turns into a Dion Waiters type, if Marial Shayok comes in and has a Wade-like impact, that would have more impact than simply landing Stone, unless he is a NPOY player as a freshman.
I love Stone's potential and really want to see him in Marquette colors, but this program is far bigger than him. As long as Buzz keeps doing what he's been doing, we will continue to move up in the pecking order. I really believe with Buzz (or a comparable coach), we will win with or without Stone. I still want to see him here, but won't lose my mind if he goes elsewhere.
So in summary...
1) MU's profile when it comes to recruiting could be better, but it has drastically improved over the past decade or two.
2) Buzz is one of the best young coaches in the land, but some people's butts still ache over the fact that we weren't supposed to do better than Crean when he left.
3) We still can't recruit bigs because the weather sucks and/or other coaches are telling recruits "you don't want to go there." But recruiting 4- and 5-star switchables is well within reach... evidently because those guys don't care about the weather and/or other coaches don't negative-recruit those kids.
4) Diamond Stone plays basketball. Pretty damn good, apparently.
5) Nov 8 can't come soon enough.
Quote from: The Equalizer on October 23, 2013, 07:48:50 PM
Actually, once you're already at 30, its probably easier to get to 15, because it only takes only one or two players--many of which are legitimately considering you. And once one elite recruit opens the door, it becomes easier to get the next, and the next and the next.
Meanwhile, if it were easy to get to 30, teams like DePaul, St. Johns, Seton Hall, Providence would all be there. Yet they've all been struggling for years.
Ask yourself this--which is more likely?
A DePaul or Seton Hall turning the entire program around, becomming a mirror image of Marquette, and becomming capable of running up 8 tournament appearances?
Or Marquette landing a player like Diamond Stone for 2015, and then following him up with a Jayson Tatum in 2016, which would propel us into the top 5 right about the time Boeheim, Pitino, Coach K are approaching retirement?
And you could say the same for any consistent 15-30 team. Any one of them is just one elite-level recruit in two consectuive years away from cracking that top 10/top 15 barrier.
Totally disagree. On your way to 30 you're passing programs like Minnesota, Iowa and Dayton. It's much easier to go from OK to good than it is to go from good to elite. Good programs can recruit talent when they have immediate playing time to offer. Elite programs stockpile talent, and that's much, much more difficult.
One player (a likely one and done at that) won't make a program elite. We had D Wade for two years and were an elite "team" for that period but we certainly weren't and didn't become an elite program. Buzz has us on the brink of elite. If he stays for a few more years I think we make it, Stone or no Stone.
Quote from: brewcity77 on October 24, 2013, 08:15:45 AM
Landing one recruit won't signal that. Michael Beasley didn't turn KSU into a top-10 program. Neither did OJ Mayo and Demar DeRozan in back to back years for USC. It will continue to come down to rankings, results in March, and putting players in the NBA. If Jajuan Johnson turns into a Dion Waiters type, if Marial Shayok comes in and has a Wade-like impact, that would have more impact than simply landing Stone, unless he is a NPOY player as a freshman.
I love Stone's potential and really want to see him in Marquette colors, but this program is far bigger than him. As long as Buzz keeps doing what he's been doing, we will continue to move up in the pecking order. I really believe with Buzz (or a comparable coach), we will win with or without Stone. I still want to see him here, but won't lose my mind if he goes elsewhere.
I didn't mean to say that Diamond Stone alone turns us into an elite program. I was working off what Equalizer said where once you get one 5 star to commit, its a lot easier to get the next one to commit. A gateway recruit if you will. I think Stone could be that recruit.
I do think that there is a perception right now that elite recruits don't go to Marquette. JJJ is the highest rated recruit we've had since Doc Rivers...and he was outside the top 100 when we started recruiting him. To land a top 10 player who has been in the top 10 since the beginning can change the perception of a program for recruits.
All this being said, Marquette will be great whether or not we land Stone.
I doubt that Buzz feels he has reached his ceiling at MU. I'd be willing to bet that he is still working his ass off to make the program better.
Quote from: mileskishnish72 on October 24, 2013, 09:50:35 AM
I doubt that Buzz feels he has reached his ceiling at MU. I'd be willing to bet that he is still working his ass off to make the program better.
Given what we know about Buzz's "him vs the world" mentality, I don't think the guy is ever going to believe that he has reached his ceiling.
The dude works his ass off everyday. That's one thing we can always count on.
Quote from: Benny B on October 24, 2013, 09:14:32 AM
So in summary...
1) MU's profile when it comes to recruiting could be better, but it has drastically improved over the past decade or two.
2) Buzz is one of the best young coaches in the land, but some people's butts still ache over the fact that we weren't supposed to do better than Crean when he left.
3) We still can't recruit bigs because the weather sucks and/or other coaches are telling recruits "you don't want to go there." But recruiting 4- and 5-star switchables is well within reach... evidently because those guys don't care about the weather and/or other coaches don't negative-recruit those kids.
4) Diamond Stone plays basketball. Pretty damn good, apparently.
5) Nov 8 can't come soon enough.
+1000
On the Louisville Scout site the fans are discusding the posiblity of Blackshear starting at the 4. It would give them a lineup of 6'6', 6'5", 6'4" 6'3" & 5'10". I wish we were playing Louisville this year.
Quote from: bilsu on October 25, 2013, 08:57:32 AM
On the Louisville Scout site the fans are discusding the posiblity of Blackshear starting at the 4. It would give them a lineup of 6'6', 6'5", 6'4" 6'3" & 5'10". I wish we were playing Louisville this year.
What about Harrell? Isn't he 6"9?
Quote from: DB Cooper on October 24, 2013, 01:28:00 PM
+1000
I thought that you'd be looking forward to November 24th.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on October 25, 2013, 10:38:11 AM
What about Harrell? Isn't he 6"9?
Evidently, the Louisville fans think that that is only on paper.
Quote from: LittleMurs on October 25, 2013, 10:44:31 AM
I thought that you'd be looking forward to November 24th.
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