"I'm a f—–g junior-college guy. So you look at me different because I'm the coach, but you're going to talk about those guys? I'm not good with that," Williams said. "I am an ass when it comes to that sort of stuff. I'm going to protect my people, no matter what you think of them." -Buzz
http://painttouches.com/2013/10/08/juco-transfers-come-full-circle-for-buzz/
Crowder and Buycks failed to qualify out of high school, the former because of receiving bad advice attending a non-accredited high school in Georgia. For the other three, a lack of Division I interest and/or funds to attend a university straight out of high school — just like Williams — was the only route those players had.
It wasn't Crowder's high school that was non-accredited, it was his first JUCO stop, South Georgia Tech. Buycks apprantly received poor advice from a high school guidance counselor which led to Indian Hills instead of Bradley University.
Quote from: TedBaxter on October 08, 2013, 09:35:39 AM
Crowder and Buycks failed to qualify out of high school, the former because of receiving bad advice attending a non-accredited high school in Georgia. For the other three, a lack of Division I interest and/or funds to attend a university straight out of high school — just like Williams — was the only route those players had.
It wasn't Crowder's high school that was non-accredited, it was his first JUCO stop, South Georgia Tech. Buycks apprantly received poor advice from a high school guidance counselor which led to Indian Hills instead of Bradley University.
Poor advice? It got him ultimately to Marquette, didn't it?
Quote from: TedBaxter on October 08, 2013, 09:35:39 AM
Crowder and Buycks failed to qualify out of high school, the former because of receiving bad advice attending a non-accredited high school in Georgia. For the other three, a lack of Division I interest and/or funds to attend a university straight out of high school — just like Williams — was the only route those players had.
It wasn't Crowder's high school that was non-accredited, it was his first JUCO stop, South Georgia Tech. Buycks apprantly received poor advice from a high school guidance counselor which led to Indian Hills instead of Bradley University.
That's what I thought as well. Didn't coach huggy bear go and see Jae and asked him what he was doing at a non-accredited school?
2 years later JC puts 28 Pts up on West Virginia in the BEast opener.
Quote from: TedBaxter on October 08, 2013, 09:35:39 AM
Crowder and Buycks failed to qualify out of high school, the former because of receiving bad advice attending a non-accredited high school in Georgia. For the other three, a lack of Division I interest and/or funds to attend a university straight out of high school — just like Williams — was the only route those players had.
It wasn't Crowder's high school that was non-accredited, it was his first JUCO stop, South Georgia Tech. Buycks apprantly received poor advice from a high school guidance counselor which led to Indian Hills instead of Bradley University.
Why would anybody go to University of Phoenix Prep?
Quote from: pux90mex on October 08, 2013, 09:12:25 AM
"I'm a f—–g junior-college guy. So you look at me different because I'm the coach, but you're going to talk about those guys? I'm not good with that," Williams said. "I am an ass when it comes to that sort of stuff. I'm going to protect my people, no matter what you think of them." -Buzz
http://painttouches.com/2013/10/08/juco-transfers-come-full-circle-for-buzz/
Anybody else think of a certain priest when they read this? Hint: the name rhymes with Pilarz
Quote from: ElDonBDon on October 08, 2013, 12:00:13 PM
Anybody else think of a certain priest when they read this? Hint: the name rhymes with Pilarz
I think of three guys. Their names "rhyme" with Scott, Larry and Chico.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 08, 2013, 12:23:40 PM
I think of three guys. Their names "rhyme" with Scott, Larry and Chico.
First three that came to my mind.
I want at least one top-flight JUCO player on every year's roster in my ideal world. Love that they get their ultimate chance to shine at my alma mater.
The problem with non-qualifying Jucos is two years is usually not enough to have them complete their course of study and graduate from MU...and that leads to APR issues. With McKay's early commitment, they had an extra year to work on his schedule to make sure he was taking classes that would transfer to Marquette. (For instance, MU doesn't allow any PE credits to transfer...for all of their students, not just athletes.)
Those are real, legitimate issues that Marquette is right to address. Of course that doesn't mean that MU shouldn't take *any* non-qualifying Jucos, but they have to be limited in nature. The two that we have brought in under Buzz have yet to graduate, while the three qualifying Jucos have all graduated. (Well, except for JFB from what I understand...he had enough to march but not enough to actually get the degree.)
What I hope happens is that the 2 year JUCOs complete their degrees via summer school as their schedule permits. MU has really ramped up their summer program including the addition of numerous online classes. Even a deep playoff run would allow enrollment in the second summer session that begins right around July 4. MU does have a Senior residency requirement (meaning that you can't transfer your final credits in from a different institution) but I wonder if that could be waived in special situations allowing a guy like Jae to finish up in Texas. The summer program is a good money maker for MU so I'd think they'd love to advertise 'work on your degree with #mubb'.
To that end, I trust and hope DWade has been encouraged to finish up once his playing days end. Part of being a good role model for his own kids as well as the Boys and Girls Club.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 08, 2013, 12:23:40 PM
I think of three guys. Their names "rhyme" with Scott, Larry and Chico.
I'm touched
You can add a bunch of major donors to the program as well, if you really wanted to be thorough. But hey, their opinions don't matter. ;)
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 08, 2013, 06:23:31 PM
I'm touched
You can add a bunch of major donors to the program as well, if you really wanted to be thorough. But hey, their opinions don't matter. ;)
So your sources tell you, but Buzz is still here and Pilarz isn't. And Larry hasn't talked about making Buzz a better coach in quite some time. I'd say the worm has turned - and none too soon.
Quote from: Jajuannaman on October 08, 2013, 12:28:59 PM
I want at least one top-flight JUCO player on every year's roster in my ideal world. Love that they get their ultimate chance to shine at my alma mater.
I want as many top flight players on every roster in my ideal world. I want them to graduate, play well on the court, win, represent the university well and succeed in their lives. Love that they get a chance to do that at my alma mater. Those that sully my alma mater through off the court issues, not too crazy about them. If they are JUCO, high school, or full college transfers and they perform well on and off court, graduate....God Bless them. Well done.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 08, 2013, 06:23:31 PM
I'm touched
You can add a bunch of major donors to the program as well, if you really wanted to be thorough. But hey, their opinions don't matter. ;)
Define bunch & define major.
I have not heard one donor have issues. But I have heard plenty with issues with Pilarz and his at best indifference to basketball.
Quote from: The Lens on October 08, 2013, 10:40:05 PM
Define bunch & define major.
I have not heard one donor have issues. But I have heard plenty with issues with Pilarz and his at best indifference to basketball.
Not seeing eye to eye with Buzz does not equal indifference to basketball. His excitement about working with such a strong athletic program was one of the main reasons why he got hired to be our president. People like to rip on Pilarz without knowing any facts. Now I will say I prefer Father Wild, but I mean who can beat Bobby Wild?
And I know plenty of people who have issues with admitting students who don't qualify academically. Let's be honest, admitting Crowder after attending a non-accredited juco was questionable at best. They took him knowing full well that he wouldn't graduate. In the end, the good he did for our university outweighs the negative of not graduating, but lets at least admit what happened there.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on October 09, 2013, 12:34:09 AM
Not seeing eye to eye with Buzz does not equal indifference to basketball. His excitement about working with such a strong athletic program was one of the main reasons why he got hired to be our president. People like to rip on Pilarz without knowing any facts. Now I will say I prefer Father Wild, but I mean who can beat Bobby Wild?
And I know plenty of people who have issues with admitting students who don't qualify academically. Let's be honest, admitting Crowder after attending a non-accredited juco was questionable at best. They took him knowing full well that he wouldn't graduate. In the end, the good he did for our university outweighs the negative of not graduating, but lets at least admit what happened there.
TAMU, note that I described it as "at best indifference". Also, define qualify academically? We've been admitting kids to MU for decades to play sports who are not on par, transcript-wise, with the rest of the incoming class. I think it's funny to go after jucos when we've been stashing basketball players in the College of Communications forever. If the NCAA clears them, I'm fine. Then it's up to Buzz & Co to get them to graduate and not hurt our APR so bad that we hit UConn status.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on October 09, 2013, 12:34:09 AM
Not seeing eye to eye with Buzz does not equal indifference to basketball. His excitement about working with such a strong athletic program was one of the main reasons why he got hired to be our president. People like to rip on Pilarz without knowing any facts. Now I will say I prefer Father Wild, but I mean who can beat Bobby Wild?
And I know plenty of people who have issues with admitting students who don't qualify academically. Let's be honest, admitting Crowder after attending a non-accredited juco was questionable at best. They took him knowing full well that he wouldn't graduate. In the end, the good he did for our university outweighs the negative of not graduating, but lets at least admit what happened there.
How many people throughout the history of MU basketball would have qualified otherwise? You think DWade would qualify? Cmon... We are going to continue to have players who wouldn't meet those standards, so those "plenty of people" that you know better learn how to deal with it.
And I think calling Pilarz "indifferent" to athletics isn't much of a stretch. I mean if he wanted to come to a school that had a higher profile in athletics, he certainly didn't show much of it. His attendance at men's games was irregular.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on October 08, 2013, 12:31:30 PM
The problem with non-qualifying Jucos is two years is usually not enough to have them complete their course of study and graduate from MU...and that leads to APR issues.
APR is merely "did you stay stay in school with eligibility remaining and did you stay academically eligible?" Actually earning a degree at the end of your eligibility doesn't factor in to it.
If a player leaves after becoming academically ineligible, that's different.
Quote from: Brewtown Andy on October 09, 2013, 08:31:37 AM
APR is merely "did you stay stay in school with eligibility remaining and did you stay academically eligible?" Actually earning a degree at the end of your eligibility doesn't factor in to it.
If a player leaves after becoming academically ineligible, that's different.
OK thanks for that explanation.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on October 09, 2013, 12:34:09 AM
And I know plenty of people who have issues with admitting students who don't qualify academically. Let's be honest, admitting Crowder after attending a non-accredited juco was questionable at best. They took him knowing full well that he wouldn't graduate. In the end, the good he did for our university outweighs the negative of not graduating, but lets at least admit what happened there.
You and your "plenty of people" live in fantasy land. There is no university playing D1 basketball (including the Ivies) that doesn't take basketball players who would be rejected out of hand without their special skill. As for Crowder, I think he left school in April of his senior year to prepare for the NBA draft. When your program is producing NBA level talent that's going to happen.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 09, 2013, 09:22:12 AM
You and your "plenty of people" live in fantasy land. There is no university playing D1 basketball (including the Ivies) that doesn't take basketball players who would be rejected out of hand without their special skill. As for Crowder, I think he left school in April of his senior year to prepare for the NBA draft. When your program is producing NBA level talent that's going to happen.
College prepares you for a profession, for some people that profession is NBA basketball. I think we can all agree that MU is not some basketball factory that chews up and spits out players without doing anything to improve their academic status. Crowder is in a far better place academically then when he started and can pick up that degree when the time is right.
Leaving school in April to prepare for the draft is what prospective NBA players do.
Ya'll completely missed what I was saying.
I am well aware that D1 basketball programs, ours included, admit students who wouldn't get into the school without athletics. I have zero problem with that whatsoever.
Crowder was a unique case. His first year in juco did not count academically. He came in with enough credits to be a sophomore but only had two years of basketball eligibility. With all the time basketball takes up, you cannot tell me that anyone reasonably expected him to graduate before his eligibility ran out.
I have no problem with admitting students who aren't marquette's level academically, they have the chance to learn, achieve, and graduate in four years. Crowder never had that chance. Again, because of all the good he did for our university, the positive outweighs the negative.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on October 08, 2013, 12:31:30 PM
The problem with non-qualifying Jucos is two years is usually not enough to have them complete their course of study and graduate from MU...and that leads to APR issues. With McKay's early commitment, they had an extra year to work on his schedule to make sure he was taking classes that would transfer to Marquette. (For instance, MU doesn't allow any PE credits to transfer...for all of their students, not just athletes.)
Those are real, legitimate issues that Marquette is right to address. Of course that doesn't mean that MU shouldn't take *any* non-qualifying Jucos, but they have to be limited in nature. The two that we have brought in under Buzz have yet to graduate, while the three qualifying Jucos have all graduated. (Well, except for JFB from what I understand...he had enough to march but not enough to actually get the degree.)
Well said and on point. There are JUCOs and there are JUCOs, not all created equal. Some are ready, mature, primed to excel in the classroom and on the court. Some it is a harder slog. It can have longer term issues, like the APR, etc.
Nicely done and agree wholeheartedly.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 09, 2013, 07:15:22 PM
Well said and on point. There are JUCOs and there are JUCOs, not all created equal. Some are ready, mature, primed to excel in the classroom and on the court. Some it is a harder slog. It can have longer term issues, like the APR, etc.
Nicely done and agree wholeheartedly.
I appreciate it, but I don't think that Buycks or Crowder weren't "ready, mature, (and) primed to excel in the classroom and on the court."
They just didn't have enough time to finish their degree.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on October 09, 2013, 07:18:36 PM
I appreciate it, but I don't think that Buycks or Crowder weren't "ready, mature, (and) primed to excel in the classroom and on the court."
They just didn't have enough time to finish their degree.
A lot of guys that don't qualify fit that bill and go to a JUCO to break into the college scene at a different academic level. Nothing wrong with it. I'd like to see an updated study of kids that went to JUCOs that were qualified to go to a 4 year vs those that went to a JUCO that weren't qualified and see how the did in terms of graduation, grades, etc. There was a study like this many years ago when I was in college athletics, but I don't know if such a follow-up has been done. There was a pretty distinct difference between the two groups, as you might imagine.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 09, 2013, 10:15:13 PM
A lot of guys that don't qualify fit that bill and go to a JUCO to break into the college scene at a different academic level. Nothing wrong with it. I'd like to see an updated study of kids that went to JUCOs that were qualified to go to a 4 year vs those that went to a JUCO that weren't qualified and see how the did in terms of graduation, grades, etc. There was a study like this many years ago when I was in college athletics, but I don't know if such a follow-up has been done. There was a pretty distinct difference between the two groups, as you might imagine.
Let me explain my position a little further. I have no doubt that it is harder for non-qualifying Jucos to graduate from their four year school. And when you are a school like Marquette that doesn't accept PE credits, it becomes even more difficult. They simply don't have enough time.
Three year Jucos, while also *likely* to be a little more advanced academically, have three years in which to graduate.
We have seen this at MU with all the three year Jucos graduating (or close enough to march), and all of the two year Jucos not graduating.
My problem with your statement is that the reasons that the two year's didn't graduate had nothing to do with not being "ready, mature (and) primed to excel in the classroom and on the court." In fact, both Jae and Dwight seemed to be model citizens in pretty much every sense. They simply didn't have the time.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on October 10, 2013, 12:01:14 PM
Let me explain my position a little further. I have no doubt that it is harder for non-qualifying Jucos to graduate from their four year school. And when you are a school like Marquette that doesn't accept PE credits, it becomes even more difficult. They simply don't have enough time.
Three year Jucos, while also *likely* to be a little more advanced academically, have three years in which to graduate.
We have seen this at MU with all the three year Jucos graduating (or close enough to march), and all of the two year Jucos not graduating.
My problem with your statement is that the reasons that the two year's didn't graduate had nothing to do with not being "ready, mature (and) primed to excel in the classroom and on the court." In fact, both Jae and Dwight seemed to be model citizens in pretty much every sense. They simply didn't have the time.
Nuance and context are difficult for some to comprehend.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on October 10, 2013, 12:01:14 PM
Let me explain my position a little further. I have no doubt that it is harder for non-qualifying Jucos to graduate from their four year school. And when you are a school like Marquette that doesn't accept PE credits, it becomes even more difficult. They simply don't have enough time.
Three year Jucos, while also *likely* to be a little more advanced academically, have three years in which to graduate.
We have seen this at MU with all the three year Jucos graduating (or close enough to march), and all of the two year Jucos not graduating.
My problem with your statement is that the reasons that the two year's didn't graduate had nothing to do with not being "ready, mature (and) primed to excel in the classroom and on the court." In fact, both Jae and Dwight seemed to be model citizens in pretty much every sense. They simply didn't have the time.
Agree with most of your statement until you get to the last paragraph. When you say it has NOTHING to do with being ready, I don't concur. Some of these kids flat out aren't ready which is why they were in the position they were to begin with. Of course, this doesn't mean all, nor was that said. We're talking high level generalities here and of course there are going to be examples illustrating all outcomes. I'm talking what the studies show, or better yet what the academic advisors will tell you. Let's put it this way, they knew they had a much tougher job going in with some kids vs others based solely on the path they were on. Sometimes they were pleasantly surprised, often it was a very tough grind. I get the time comment, totally get it and agree with it. I'm talking about maturity level, ability to cope, ability to get down to business, prioritize, etc. Again, high level generalities, there are exceptions, of course.
Chicos, you are yet again distorting what I say to make your own dumb argument.
That paragraph speaks *specifically* to the two year Jucos that Buzz has brought in. Jae and Dwight were fantastic representatives of this program...and Jameel looks like he will be the third. So, while your cute little theory might be applicable in general, it certainly isn't applicable here.
So again, the next time you want to get on your soapbox, please do not do it with my posts.
Quote from: The Lens on October 08, 2013, 10:40:05 PM
Define bunch & define major.
I have not heard one donor have issues. But I have heard plenty with issues with Pilarz and his at best indifference to basketball.
Lens, I'm guessing most of who you hear about are basketball friendly donors. Not everyone is. Not everyone was pleased with 2 years ago, and yes...a bunch...voiced their displeasure as a result. That is what I am talking about. When I say donors, I'm talking about Marquette University donors....the bigger picture, the one that makes Marquette basketball possible. I'm not talking Blue and Gold.
I should have clarified more clearly.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on October 12, 2013, 08:31:14 PM
Chicos, you are yet again distorting what I say to make your own dumb argument.
That paragraph speaks *specifically* to the two year Jucos that Buzz has brought in. Jae and Dwight were fantastic representatives of this program...and Jameel looks like he will be the third. So, while your cute little theory might be applicable in general, it certainly isn't applicable here.
So again, the next time you want to get on your soapbox, please do not do it with my posts.
Sultan, I would politely ask you to merely go back to the previous page and read what I said...it was about JUCOs in general, not specifically to MU. I'm glad you *specifically* brought them into the discussion, that is fine, but that is never what I was talking about. I referenced the overall studies about JUCOs in general.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 12, 2013, 09:24:13 PM
Sultan, I would politely ask you to merely go back to the previous page and read what I said...it was about JUCOs in general, not specifically to MU. I'm glad you *specifically* brought them into the discussion, that is fine, but that is never what I was talking about. I referenced the overall studies about JUCOs in general.
You said that you "agree wholeheartedly" with what I said, which was specifically about Marquette, and then used what I said to further your point.
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/conversation?gameId=400491531
Top Performers
Toronto: D. Buycks 8 Pts, 4 Reb, 7 Ast, 2 Stl
Minnesota: K. Love 28 Pts, 11 Reb, 2 Ast, 2 Stl
Looks like Dwight's beating out DJ Augustin, or he did in this game anyways!