Quote from: keefe on September 25, 2013, 02:23:18 PM
Somehow I felt that working to eliminate anthropogenic elemental Hg from the environment was a more compelling endeavor than arguing about the rightful place of MU basketball in the annals of NCAA history.
Not being familiar with the travails of anthropogenic elemental Hg... I asked my wife, the environmental prosecutor, for some context on this one. She said that I need more compelling endeavors, period.
Either she doesn't think too much of Scoop or she, too, is on to Keefe.
Quote from: Benny B on September 25, 2013, 04:45:48 PM
Not being familiar with the travails of anthropogenic elemental Hg... I asked my wife, the environmental prosecutor, for some context on this one. She said that I need more compelling endeavors, period.
Either she doesn't think too much of Scoop or she, too, is on to Keefe.
With all due respect to your beloved, there is a profound difference between enforcement of environmental laws and innovation in applied physics and electrochemical engineering. If your wife is truly on top of her game then she is at least conversant in the UNEP-sponsored Minamata Convention aimed at eliminating all man-made Hg vapor emissions by 2020.
Our patented IP was developed by a team of U Dub, Cal, and Washington University in St Louis professors whose specialties include electrochemical systems, combustion, and multi-scale simulation. We have overlain computationally efficient algorithms on the baseline chemistry to create reactive solutions that eliminate more than 95% of elemental Hg from coal-fired power plants, cement operations, smelters, crematoria, etc...
As your wife must know, Hg-focused environmental initiatives in the US have been tied up in the courts for 10 years by the coal and power industries. But the EU is a different case, where recognition of the serious health impacts is matched by both an appetite and propensity to eliminate a completely solvable problem. Germany is in the vanguard of addressing the Hg problem and monies have already been allocated by the EU, European Parliament, and the Government of Germany.
I love this country but I sometimes think our short-term focus on profit costs more in the long run than prudent, socially-responsible measures that require investment that actually generates a greater return over time. I would love to think we could get traction on deploying this American technology in the US, especially in the NE and SE, but the lawyers have created an environment that precludes corporate social responsibility in these industrial verticals.
Good to have you back Keefe.
Quote from: keefe on September 25, 2013, 10:59:57 PM
With all due respect to your beloved, there is a profound difference between enforcement of environmental laws and innovation in applied physics and electrochemical engineering. If your wife is truly on top of her game then she is at least conversant in the UNEP-sponsored Minamata Convention aimed at eliminating all man-made Hg vapor emissions by 2020.
Our patented IP was developed by a team of U Dub, Cal, and Washington University in St Louis professors whose specialties include electrochemical systems, combustion, and multi-scale simulation. We have overlain computationally efficient algorithms on the baseline chemistry to create reactive solutions that eliminate more than 95% of elemental Hg from coal-fired power plants, cement operations, smelters, crematoria, etc...
As your wife must know, Hg-focused environmental initiatives in the US have been tied up in the courts for 10 years by the coal and power industries. But the EU is a different case, where recognition of the serious health impacts is matched by both an appetite and propensity to eliminate a completely solvable problem. Germany is in the vanguard of addressing the Hg problem and monies have already been allocated by the EU, European Parliament, and the Government of Germany.
I love this country but I sometimes think our short-term focus on profit costs more in the long run than prudent, socially-responsible measures that require investment that actually generates a greater return over time. I would love to think we could get traction on deploying this American technology in the US, especially in the NE and SE, but the lawyers have created an environment that precludes corporate social responsibility in these industrial verticals.
Welcome back, but honestly, the bolded paragraph reads as if you tried to make a fairly simple process as complicated as possible. The phrasing renders is almost incomprehensible.
To translate (if I'm correct). When we burn any carbon based fuels (think coal), they also contain mercury, which is released into the environment. You are working on essentially a 'catalytic converter' for power plants to promote the oxidation of Mercury into compounds that can be cleaned from exhaust using existing technology (i.e. SO2 scrubbers). To accomplish this your scientists used computers and small scale reactors to improve combustion.
Quote from: forgetful on September 26, 2013, 12:12:50 AM
Welcome back, but honestly, the bolded paragraph reads as if you tried to make a fairly simple process as complicated as possible. The phrasing renders is almost incomprehensible.
To translate (if I'm correct). When we burn any carbon based fuels (think coal), they also contain mercury, which is released into the environment. You are working on essentially a 'catalytic converter' for power plants to promote the oxidation of Mercury into compounds that can be cleaned from exhaust using existing technology (i.e. SO2 scrubbers). To accomplish this your scientists used computers and small scale reactors to improve combustion.
I know I get blamed for sidetracking stuff, but I never thought I would read a thread about Pilarz stepping down and arrive at this. :D
Quote from: forgetful on September 26, 2013, 12:12:50 AM
Welcome back, but honestly, the bolded paragraph reads as if you tried to make a fairly simple process as complicated as possible. The phrasing renders is almost incomprehensible.
To translate (if I'm correct). When we burn any carbon based fuels (think coal), they also contain mercury, which is released into the environment. You are working on essentially a 'catalytic converter' for power plants to promote the oxidation of Mercury into compounds that can be cleaned from exhaust using existing technology (i.e. SO2 scrubbers). To accomplish this your scientists used computers and small scale reactors to improve combustion.
Well, one could simplify it in that way as it is essentially the oxidation of elemental Hg through into specific divalent Hg compounds which can be removed through existing wet scrubbing FGD architecture. But this is far more complex than a catalytic conversion. There are specific algorithms used for cyclic spectral analyses that determine optimal combustion in a highly dynamic environment. And therein lies the technical challenge.
If you want to simplify it as a chemical equation it is thus:
Hg + Cl ------> HgCl
HgCl + Cl ------> HgCl2
But any of the above is as accurate as explaining flight with the statement, "Bernoulli's Theorem." Devil is always in the details.
Quote from: keefe on September 26, 2013, 01:01:53 AM
Well, one could simplify it in that way as it is essentially the oxidation of elemental Hg through into specific divalent Hg compounds which can be removed through existing wet scrubbing FGD architecture. But this is far more complex than a catalytic conversion. There are specific algorithms used for cyclic spectral analyses that determine optimal combustion in a highly dynamic environment. And therein lies the technical challenge.
If you want to simplify it as a chemical equation it is thus:
Hg + Cl ------> HgCl
HgCl + Cl ------> HgCl2
But any of the above is as accurate as explaining flight with the statement, "Bernoulli's Theorem." Devil is always in the details.
I'm having bad flashbacks to Dr. Haworth's chem classes
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on September 26, 2013, 01:21:52 AM
I'm having bad flashbacks to Dr. Haworth's chem classes
My mouth went dry and palms sweaty at the mere mention of the name Haworth...
Truth be told, he was a damned good professor. General Chemistry is not the most fun subject but he made it more than it should have been.
Quote from: keefe on September 25, 2013, 10:59:57 PM
With all due respect to your beloved, there is a profound difference between enforcement of environmental laws and innovation in applied physics and electrochemical engineering. If your wife is truly on top of her game then she is at least conversant in the UNEP-sponsored Minamata Convention aimed at eliminating all man-made Hg vapor emissions by 2020.
Our patented IP was developed by a team of U Dub, Cal, and Washington University in St Louis professors whose specialties include electrochemical systems, combustion, and multi-scale simulation. We have overlain computationally efficient algorithms on the baseline chemistry to create reactive solutions that eliminate more than 95% of elemental Hg from coal-fired power plants, cement operations, smelters, crematoria, etc...
You beat me to it. My words exactly.
As your wife must know, Hg-focused environmental initiatives in the US have been tied up in the courts for 10 years by the coal and power industries. But the EU is a different case, where recognition of the serious health impacts is matched by both an appetite and propensity to eliminate a completely solvable problem. Germany is in the vanguard of addressing the Hg problem and monies have already been allocated by the EU, European Parliament, and the Government of Germany.
I love this country but I sometimes think our short-term focus on profit costs more in the long run than prudent, socially-responsible measures that require investment that actually generates a greater return over time. I would love to think we could get traction on deploying this American technology in the US, especially in the NE and SE, but the lawyers have created an environment that precludes corporate social responsibility in these industrial verticals.
I'm not even sure if this belongs in The Superbar. Perhaps we should have a section to welcome back banned or self-banned participants. Welcome back, Keefe. Always appreciate your perspective on things whether I agree or not.
Quote from: keefe on September 25, 2013, 10:59:57 PM
I love this country but I sometimes think our short-term focus on profit costs more in the long run than prudent, socially-responsible measures that require investment that actually generates a greater return over time. I would love to think we could get traction on deploying this American technology in the US, especially in the NE and SE, but the lawyers have created an environment that precludes corporate social responsibility in these industrial verticals.
Totally agree! Just the future health costs associated with these issues more than offsets profits. Plus all the damage to the environment that then has to be mitigated in the future.
Quote from: keefe on September 25, 2013, 10:59:57 PM
I love this country but I sometimes think our short-term focus on profit costs more in the long run than prudent, socially-responsible measures that require investment that actually generates a greater return over time. I would love to think we could get traction on deploying this American technology in the US, especially in the NE and SE, but the lawyers have created an environment that precludes corporate social responsibility in these industrial verticals.
That's America in a nutshell, Mr. Keefe. And also capitalism in a nutshell. Lots of positives to it, but one of the major downsides is short term profits driving all decisions. Luckily, there are still some companies who rise above, like Google, and plan for the long term.
I guess my theory about you being with the monks on Mt. Athos was incorrect ?-(
Quote from: muwarrior69 on September 26, 2013, 08:01:55 AM
I'm not even sure if this belongs in The Superbar. Perhaps we should have a section to welcome back banned or self-banned participants. Welcome back, Keefe. Always appreciate your perspective on things whether I agree or not.
Someday those 'things' may include MU basketball. Someday.
Quote from: keefe on September 26, 2013, 01:29:42 AM
My mouth went dry and palms sweaty at the mere mention of the name Haworth...
Truth be told, he was a damned good professor. General Chemistry is not the most fun subject but he made it more than it should have been.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on September 26, 2013, 01:21:52 AM
I'm having bad flashbacks to Dr. Haworth's chem classes
Holy crap, you old bastards had Haworth too?
Quote from: keefe on September 25, 2013, 10:59:57 PM
With all due respect to your beloved, there is a profound difference between enforcement of environmental laws and innovation in applied physics and electrochemical engineering. If your wife is truly on top of her game then she is at least conversant in the UNEP-sponsored Minamata Convention aimed at eliminating all man-made Hg vapor emissions by 2020.
Our patented IP was developed by a team of U Dub, Cal, and Washington University in St Louis professors whose specialties include electrochemical systems, combustion, and multi-scale simulation. We have overlain computationally efficient algorithms on the baseline chemistry to create reactive solutions that eliminate more than 95% of elemental Hg from coal-fired power plants, cement operations, smelters, crematoria, etc...
As your wife must know, Hg-focused environmental initiatives in the US have been tied up in the courts for 10 years by the coal and power industries. But the EU is a different case, where recognition of the serious health impacts is matched by both an appetite and propensity to eliminate a completely solvable problem. Germany is in the vanguard of addressing the Hg problem and monies have already been allocated by the EU, European Parliament, and the Government of Germany.
I love this country but I sometimes think our short-term focus on profit costs more in the long run than prudent, socially-responsible measures that require investment that actually generates a greater return over time. I would love to think we could get traction on deploying this American technology in the US, especially in the NE and SE, but the lawyers have created an environment that precludes corporate social responsibility in these industrial verticals.
So, is this your excuse for not posting pictures of your Alaska fishing trip in the Scoop fishing thread?
Quote from: PTM on September 26, 2013, 10:34:05 AM
Holy crap, you old bastards had Haworth too?
I'm that old and I had him although I did not find him that bad. However, as an engineer, I was also dealing with Calculus and Freshman English, which for most engineers was far more scary.
Quote from: Archies Bat on September 26, 2013, 10:50:06 AM
I'm that old and I had him although I did not find him that bad. However, as an engineer, I was also dealing with Calculus and Freshman English, which for most engineers was far more scary.
Calculus scary for an Engineer? Come on....
English I could see, knowing that the class was well below our intellectual levels.
Quote from: PTM on September 26, 2013, 10:52:03 AM
Calculus scary for an Engineer? Come on....
English I could see, knowing that the class was well below our intellectual levels.
Sorry I wasn't clear, Chem was cake, Calculus was a chore, and English was a b**tard.
Quote from: Archies Bat on September 26, 2013, 10:55:35 AM
Sorry I wasn't clear, Chem was cake, Calculus was a chore, and English was a b**tard.
+1
Quote from: PTM on September 26, 2013, 10:52:03 AM
Calculus scary for an Engineer? Come on....
English I could see, knowing that the class was well below our intellectual levels.
Calculus was the easiest math class in college.
Chem was an f'ing joke since no one spoke english except Haworth. Luckily you can end every chem lab report with, "the project didn't work due to human error".
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 26, 2013, 10:56:06 AM
Calculus was the easiest math class in college.
Chem was an f'ing joke since no one spoke english except Haworth. Luckily you can end every chem lab report with, "the project didn't work due to human error".
Calculus got tough when they tried to take our calculators.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 26, 2013, 10:56:06 AM
Calculus was the easiest math class in college.
Which Calculus did you have? Standard, Math Major/Engineering, or BizAd/Basketball Calculus?
I never finished calculus - calculus finished me.
Good to see you back, Wart, er...keefer.
Hayworth was after my time at MU. I had a Jesuit teach Freshman chemistry and I'm having a brain fart because for the life of me I can't recall his name. Any way we had no mid term or final and he did not take attendance which back then was "required". Our final grade was the average of 7 un-announced quizzes. Back then the fall semester ended in mid January not before the Christmas break as it does now. We all knew one of those quizzes would be the last class before the Christmas break, but the one that threw us for a loop was the first class when we came back after the holiday. I learned more than chemistry that semester; it prepared me for the real world and to expect the unexpected.
Wilke and McKinney followed by Hoffman and Patrick somebody or other for this Warrior, dudes.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 26, 2013, 10:56:06 AM
Luckily you can end every chem lab report with, "the project didn't work due to human error".
I finished my final lab report of Chem 2 with that and then added: "In this instance, the error was probably that I didn't clean my glassware all semester."
Quote from: PTM on September 26, 2013, 10:34:05 AM
Holy crap, you old bastards had Haworth too?
Who you calling old, sonny?
Haworth?!
Who had to bring that dude's name up?!
?-(
Quote from: keefe on September 25, 2013, 10:59:57 PM
I love this country but I sometimes think our short-term focus on profit costs more in the long run than prudent, socially-responsible measures that require investment that actually generates a greater return over time. I would love to think we could get traction on deploying this American technology in the US, especially in the NE and SE, but the lawyers have created an environment that precludes corporate social responsibility in these industrial verticals.
I despise the quarterly time cycle and agree with you that it pushes short term thinking, often. On the other hand, it also forces some accountability and doesn't let the ship stray too far from the lane usually. The comment about the lawyers, well the exact opposite happens, as well. Where we have industries that did flourish here in this country but the social responsibility gig has gone so far overboard it has driven them bye bye.
Quote from: newsdrms on September 26, 2013, 09:54:27 AM
Totally agree! Just the future health costs associated with these issues more than offsets profits. Plus all the damage to the environment that then has to be mitigated in the future.
The EEA projects total Health Economics Impact of anthropogenic Hg in the EU to be in excess of 54B Euros in 2013. The list of medical issues is daunting and perhaps most tragically affects the unborn and infants most. The negative consequences are compounding and the cascading effects can be devastating medically, socially, economically, and environmentally.
The capital cost to fix this is miniscule compared with the ongoing expense of poisoning ourselves. And one thing we all need to consider: we are warned to not eat more than 2 servings of salmon a month due to methylmercury bioaccululation. One might think this is from American sources but the fact is that China is dumping hundreds of tons of elemental mercury into the atmosphere and that is what is polluting American salmon, American water supplies, and the American food chain. Bon appetit!
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on September 26, 2013, 08:13:03 PM
I despise the quarterly time cycle and agree with you that it pushes short term thinking, often. On the other hand, it also forces some accountability and doesn't let the ship stray too far from the lane usually.
I like it, but the markets don't often pay it much attention. A pig can be lipsticked up with some kind words about the future, even if there are misdeeds and poor performance being reported. Interesting world.
Quote from: Jay Bee on September 28, 2013, 12:07:43 AM
I like it, but the markets don't often pay it much attention. A pig can be lipsticked up with some kind words about the future, even if there are misdeeds and poor performance being reported. Interesting world.
I worked in Strat Planning for two of the more Share Holder Value obsessed corporations - PepsiCo and GE. Attention was paid to quarters but the real emphasis was on making the Annual Operating Plan. Making Plan translated into magnificent bonuses or career changes. It is carved in stone in Purchase and Fairfield that shareholders will get a 15% return year over year (meaning investors will double their investment in less than 5 years.) Both corporations also adhered to a rigorous 5 year Strategic Planning process that provided Wall Street with a road map for corporate vision. There is little wonder why both investments have delivered incredible returns decade after decade.
Quote from: keefe on September 28, 2013, 12:26:04 AM
I worked in Strat Planning for two of the more Share Holder Value obsessed corporations - PepsiCo and GE.
I suspect that by working in "strat planning," KeefeHog really means that he brought the decision makers perfectly-stapled copies of their presentations.
Quote from: Captain Awesome on September 28, 2013, 09:59:01 AM
I suspect that by working in "strat planning," KeefeHog really means that he brought the decision makers perfectly-stapled copies of their presentations.
HA HA HA, You are just so funny.
Quote from: keefe on September 28, 2013, 12:00:52 AM
The EEA projects total Health Economics Impact of anthropogenic Hg in the EU to be in excess of 54B Euros in 2013. The list of medical issues is daunting and perhaps most tragically affects the unborn and infants most. The negative consequences are compounding and the cascading effects can be devastating medically, socially, economically, and environmentally.
The capital cost to fix this is miniscule compared with the ongoing expense of poisoning ourselves. And one thing we all need to consider: we are warned to not eat more than 2 servings of salmon a month due to methylmercury bioaccululation. One might think this is from American sources but the fact is that China is dumping hundreds of tons of elemental mercury into the atmosphere and that is what is polluting American salmon, American water supplies, and the American food chain. Bon appetit!
Keefe, I am completely in favor of your effort, but part of the reason it doesn't get more support is that a lot of these studies go out of their way to make the problems look worse than they are.
For instance. Only 70% of all mercury that ends up in the environment comes from man-made sources. 75% of that 70 is due to things like coal and wood burning in developing countries (think their kitchen stove/home heat). That only leaves around 19% of all mercury that we can do anything about. And even that approach results in formation of Mercury (II) Chloride, which is still toxic.
The health consequences can be mediated by increased public awareness of the types of fish that contain elevated levels of Mercury and increased vigilance in eating those types of fish. The bulk of the health related consequences is due to estimates of the financial cost of decreased IQ in individuals exposed to too much methyl-mercury. That is extremely difficult to quantify and would be solved by eating less tuna/salmon/swordfish.
We should decrease the amount of mercury being released, because we should be taking better care of our environment, not by scaring people with often inflated economic consequences. In addition, the ultimate solution to these problems is clean energy (not carbon based), as even the best approaches right now generate Mercuric chloride.
Please, don't take this as an assault on what you are doing. I applaud that and thing more need to be focusing on these things. I just believe that the way we sell them (scare tactics that can be inflated), often turns some people passionately against the idea instead of gaining their support.
Quote from: forgetful on September 28, 2013, 10:48:13 AM
Keefe, I am completely in favor of your effort, but part of the reason it doesn't get more support is that a lot of these studies go out of their way to make the problems look worse than they are.
For instance. Only 70% of all mercury that ends up in the environment comes from man-made sources. 75% of that 70 is due to things like coal and wood burning in developing countries (think their kitchen stove/home heat). That only leaves around 19% of all mercury that we can do anything about. And even that approach results in formation of Mercury (II) Chloride, which is still toxic.
The health consequences can be mediated by increased public awareness of the types of fish that contain elevated levels of Mercury and increased vigilance in eating those types of fish. The bulk of the health related consequences is due to estimates of the financial cost of decreased IQ in individuals exposed to too much methyl-mercury. That is extremely difficult to quantify and would be solved by eating less tuna/salmon/swordfish.
We should decrease the amount of mercury being released, because we should be taking better care of our environment, not by scaring people with often inflated economic consequences. In addition, the ultimate solution to these problems is clean energy (not carbon based), as even the best approaches right now generate Mercuric chloride.
Please, don't take this as an assault on what you are doing. I applaud that and thing more need to be focusing on these things. I just believe that the way we sell them (scare tactics that can be inflated), often turns some people passionately against the idea instead of gaining their support.
Your point is well taken and it has never been our intent to try to sell anyone on the problem. We are simply offering a practical and, by comparison, relatively inexpensive solution to an acknowledged problem. The focus of our discussions has not been on the magnitude of the problem but the ease of fixing it. Our audiences are looking for solutions that are effective, efficient, and cost-effective.
From your figures I do feel you may be underestimating the severity of this problem. There is a range of statistics in the art that demonstrate degree of impact but nothing suggests there is not a problem with Hg. Regardless of the source, I think we can agree that there is a problem that can be fixed. And the answer is not to eat less fish; there are practical solutions that will allow people to eat as much salmon as they want!
The good news is that we have not had to convince the EU and Government of Germany that there is a problem. We demonstrated a viable, cost-effective solution that has traction in Europe. But to your point on alternative fuels, our main effort is on a related technology that will reduce NOx, CO, and CO2 by more than 95%. And that is something that will genuinely make a difference.
Quote from: Captain Awesome on September 28, 2013, 09:59:01 AM
I suspect that by working in "strat planning," KeefeHog really means that he brought the decision makers perfectly-stapled copies of their presentations.
Well, the copier can handle that with a perfect 45 degree angled staple.
I don't see Keefe as a 45 degree angle staple guy though, he's a perpendicular to the long edge type of fellow.
Keefe has a GE background. Paper and staples are not used in his pitches.
Quote from: Sheriff on September 29, 2013, 11:29:43 AM
Keefe has a GE background. Paper and staples are not used in his pitches.
I bet he's used a staple or two.
Quote from: PTM on September 29, 2013, 11:35:16 AM
I bet he's used a staple or two.
Feigned reference to age?? But yes, I have not only used staples in the past but was always a perpendicular to the long edge guy. I two block items on my desk, too. And toilet paper must spool from the top.
Quote from: PTM on September 26, 2013, 11:18:58 AM
Calculus got tough when they tried to take our calculators.
Calculator? Try slide rules!
Quote from: keefe on September 29, 2013, 02:11:04 PM
And toilet paper must spool from the top.
Perhaps the best indicator of intellectual stability.
Quote from: keefe on September 29, 2013, 02:11:04 PM
Feigned reference to age?? But yes, I have not only used staples in the past but was always a perpendicular to the long edge guy. I two block items on my desk, too. And toilet paper must spool from the top.
+1. All the ways it should be done.
Quote from: keefe on September 29, 2013, 02:11:04 PM
Feigned reference to age?? But yes, I have not only used staples in the past but was always a perpendicular to the long edge guy. I two block items on my desk, too. And toilet paper must spool from the top.
Paper towels?
Quote from: LittleMurs on September 29, 2013, 03:48:39 PM
Paper towels?
Paper towels should be done vertically. Anyone still using the under-cabinet hangers need to graduate into the new millennium.
Quote from: LittleMurs on September 29, 2013, 03:48:39 PM
Paper towels?
paper towels should spool clockwise from the vertical position.
Toilet paper is so 90's. Is it rainin' out in the Pacific NW?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 29, 2013, 05:44:11 PM
Toilet paper is so 90's. Is it rainin' out in the Pacific NW?
Still waiting for those flushable baby wipes, until then I can't commit.
JayBee on the other hand needs a baker's dozen of baby wipes after polishing off a bucket of chicken wings.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 29, 2013, 05:44:11 PM
Toilet paper is so 90's.
For 4ever, Depends is the "new" Toilet Paper...for the rest of us, it is finding creative uses for the modern age plumbing hardware.
(http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2012-04-30-bidetbeer.jpg)
And we have a new persona...not a big fan though keefe.
Quote from: PTM on September 29, 2013, 07:29:15 PM
And we have a new persona...not a big fan though keefe.
Once more I don't feel the need for alter egos. You should have noticed the distinct difference in humor style.