It's difficult to win a national title without a quality point guard. Peyton Siva led Louisville a season ago, and Marquis Teague was a first-round pick on Kentucky's loaded national title squad in 2011-12. UConn had Kemba Walker, Ty Lawson led North Carolina to the title in 2008-09 and Kansas had a pair in Mario Chalmers and Sherron Collins.
Let's face it: You aren't cutting down the nets without a high-level point guard. Just look at North Carolina when the Tar Heels lost Kendall Marshall a couple of seasons ago. They didn't have a shot.
Teams that don't have to worry at all about their point guard situations in 2013-14: Ohio State, Oklahoma State, Gonzaga and Notre Dame. I'm not concerned about Kentucky, Florida and Syracuse -- even though all three will likely have freshmen at the controls.
It's time to take a look at quality teams that have question marks at the position, and we start with a program that could wind up cutting down the nets if the point guard spot is solidified.
Marquette Golden Eagles
Junior Cadougan was underrated and underappreciated. Marquette fans already understood that, but the rest of the country will see it this season. Cadougan just ran the team and also provided terrific leadership and poise. The Golden Eagles lost a bunch from last season, but they still have big men Davante Gardner and Chris Otule, along with talented wing Jamil Wilson and a highly touted freshman class.
One of those freshmen is Duane Wilson, a local product who will likely secure the starting spot over junior Derrick Wilson. Duane Wilson is an athletic scoring point guard who should have a stellar career at Marquette, but the question is whether he'll be ready as a freshman.
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He has MU listed third in the article.
Quote from: BRMU23 on September 10, 2013, 12:17:54 PM
It's difficult to win a national title without a quality point guard. Peyton Siva led Louisville a season ago, and Marquis Teague was a first-round pick on Kentucky's loaded national title squad in 2011-12. UConn had Kemba Walker, Ty Lawson led North Carolina to the title in 2008-09 and Kansas had a pair in Mario Chalmers and Sherron Collins.
Let's face it: You aren't cutting down the nets without a high-level point guard. Just look at North Carolina when the Tar Heels lost Kendall Marshall a couple of seasons ago. They didn't have a shot.
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He has MU listed third in the article.
It's a guards game
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 10, 2013, 01:37:56 PM
It's a crapshoot.
Even more so if you have don't have great guards.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on September 10, 2013, 01:42:05 PM
Even more so if you have don't have great guards.
So if you have crappy players or are a crappy coach it's a real crapshoot! Crap!
Willie clearly has a beef with this guy. Go get him, willie! Don't let him get away with this weak crap. Only bigs matter!
Seriously? Cadougan was never that good. Acting like he's irreplaceable is ridiculous.
I hope we can do better than a 23% 3-pt. shooter, whose A/T ratio was a sub standard 1.5:1.
Quote from: Aughnanure on September 10, 2013, 02:51:27 PM
Seriously? Cadougan was never that good. Acting like he's irreplaceable is ridiculous.
And who's doing that?
Quote from: Sunbelt15 on September 10, 2013, 03:39:20 PM
And who's doing that?
Goodman.
"Junior Cadougan was underrated and underappreciated. Marquette fans already understood that, but the rest of the country will see it this season." - pretty much insinuates it.
Quote from: Aughnanure on September 10, 2013, 02:51:27 PM
Seriously? Cadougan was never that good. Acting like he's irreplaceable is ridiculous.
Tell that to UCONN.... hahaahhahahahahahahhahahhahahah.
Quote from: Aughnanure on September 10, 2013, 03:41:38 PM
Goodman.
"Junior Cadougan was underrated and underappreciated. Marquette fans already understood that, but the rest of the country will see it this season." - pretty much insinuates it.
Hmmm. I see the words "underrated" and "underappreciated." Nowhere in there do I see the word "irreplaceable."
There are lots of underrated players in all of sports who are not irreplaceable. If Goodman meant that Junior was irreplaceable, he would have said so.
I don't disagree with a single word Goodman wrote until the last graph. My eyebrows did raise a little at the casualness with which Goodman stated Duane's likely ascension over Derrick. If only.
Lots of us expect another deep tourney run. Some here are talking about the Final Four. And a few especially giddy Scoopers have mentioned the national title and seemed perfectly serious doing so.
Look at the list of NCAA title-winning PGs in Goodman's article. And we could go back for another decade or four and keep doing the exercise. Can even Derrick's biggest proponents suggest he has shown one iota of evidence of belonging in that category?
Either Derrick better improve significantly (a possibility perhaps, as guys
do improve), Duane better get plenty of PT or fans better start ramping down expectations. We need a PG at least as good as the underrated -- but very replaceable -- Junior Cadougan.
Quote from: MU82 on September 10, 2013, 04:28:58 PM
Lots of us expect another deep tourney run. Some here are talking about the Final Four. And a few especially giddy Scoopers have mentioned the national title and seemed perfectly serious doing so.
Look at the list of NCAA title-winning PGs in Goodman's article. And we could go back for another decade or four and keep doing the exercise. Can even Derrick's biggest proponents suggest he has shown one iota of evidence of belonging in that category?
Either Derrick better improve significantly (a possibility perhaps, as guys do improve), Duane better get plenty of PT or fans better start ramping down expectations. We need a PG at least as good as the underrated -- but very replaceable -- Junior Cadougan.
Agree completely. We go as far as our PGs take us. Still my biggest concern for this year bar none.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on September 10, 2013, 04:51:42 PM
Agree completely. We go as far as our PGs take us. Still my biggest concern for this year bar none.
Ehhh.
I'll still say outside shooting. Derrick is fine if several other guards and switchable knock down a lot of 3's.
If/when they don't... then Derrick will be exposed like Junior was (at times).
Quote from: MU82 on September 10, 2013, 04:28:58 PM
Hmmm. I see the words "underrated" and "underappreciated." Nowhere in there do I see the word "irreplaceable."
There are lots of underrated players in all of sports who are not irreplaceable. If Goodman meant that Junior was irreplaceable, he would have said so.
I don't disagree with a single word Goodman wrote until the last graph. My eyebrows did raise a little at the casualness with which Goodman stated Duane's likely ascension over Derrick. If only.
Lots of us expect another deep tourney run. Some here are talking about the Final Four. And a few especially giddy Scoopers have mentioned the national title and seemed perfectly serious doing so.
Look at the list of NCAA title-winning PGs in Goodman's article. And we could go back for another decade or four and keep doing the exercise. Can even Derrick's biggest proponents suggest he has shown one iota of evidence of belonging in that category?
Either Derrick better improve significantly (a possibility perhaps, as guys do improve), Duane better get plenty of PT or fans better start ramping down expectations. We need a PG at least as good as the underrated -- but very replaceable -- Junior Cadougan.
Then why will the rest of the "country see it this season"? That seems to say we'll be significantly worse off this year, to the point that it will be obvious to casual fans.
If you average D Wilson's numbers out he would be about equal to Cadougan's assist total, plus significantly more steals and better D.
I thought Goodman was writing Marquette would be better now that they got rid of their weak PG.
Quote from: Aughnanure on September 10, 2013, 05:01:27 PM
Then why will the rest of the "country see it this season"? That seems to say we'll be significantly worse off this year, to the point that it will be obvious to casual fans.
If you average D Wilson's numbers out he would be about equal to Cadougan's assist total, plus significantly more steals and better D.
The only reason Goodman might even be slightly insinuating Junior is irreplaceable is because we don't have a guy who is obviously ready to replace him.
Michael Jordan was irreplaceable. Olajuwon was irreplaceable. Larry Bird was REALLY irreplaceable for Indiana State.
Bill McCaffrey was the No. 2 scorer on Duke's '91 national title team. He then transferred. He was eminently replaceable because Duke had better players available to take his spot, and Duke won another title.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on September 10, 2013, 04:51:42 PM
Agree completely. We go as far as our PGs take us. Still my biggest concern for this year bar none.
I agree with the idea, but Cadougan's 6.75ppg 1.25ast in '13 tourney suggest MU did fine with mediocre PG play.
Quote from: LAZER on September 10, 2013, 07:52:20 PM
I agree with the idea, but Cadougan's 6.75ppg 1.25ast in '13 tourney suggest MU did fine with mediocre PG play.
I would say Junior's play against Davidson (poor performance) is one of the reasons we were lucky even to survive that game. 0 Assists in 27 minutes and 4 points. Not good....no wonder Buzz said how lucky we were to win that game. He's right.
The nice thing about this MU team...IF we get solid guard play, the bigs are a given (assuming no injuries). This team can definitely make noise in March.
DerWil may not be flashy, but he's tough and has shown he won't turn the ball over. I think if he can bring it up court, we'll be more than alright.
Quote from: BRMU23 on September 11, 2013, 08:20:54 AM
DerWil may not be flashy, but he's tough and has shown he won't turn the ball over. I think if he can bring it up court, we'll be more than alright.
Derrick has proven to be a very good back-up PG. He takes care of the ball and plays solid D. That's all he's been asked to do at this level. He's never been asked to score or make plays offensively so we don't really know if that's in his repertoire. Personally, I think that if he played 20-25 minutes a night, puts up 6 points, 3 assists and shoots around 30% from 3, Marquette will be in good shape.
Quote from: BRMU23 on September 11, 2013, 08:20:54 AM
DerWil may not be flashy, but he's tough and has shown he won't turn the ball over. I think if he can bring it up court, we'll be more than alright.
I know you're pronouncing it "DARE-wil," but it looks too much like "DUHR-wil."
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on September 11, 2013, 08:49:06 AM
Derrick has proven to be a very good back-up PG. He takes care of the ball and plays solid D. That's all he's been asked to do at this level. He's never been asked to score or make plays offensively so we don't really know if that's in his repertoire. Personally, I think that if he played 20-25 minutes a night, puts up 6 points, 3 assists and shoots around 30% from 3, Marquette will be in good shape.
This is exactly right. Derrick has done pretty much exactly what he's been asked to do. This year, he will be asked to do much more if he is the starter.
At the bare minimum, today's high-major PG must be able to break down a defender and get into the lane. That is one of the main ways an offense gets open outside shots and high-percentage interior opportunities.
I agree wholeheartedly with the Derrick proponents who say we don't need him to score double-digits. But I disagree with those who think all he has to do is be able to advance the ball past midcourt and then pass to a wing 35 feet from the basket, as he has done so far in his career. Any decent walk-on can do that.
A winning high-major program needs a PG who can create for himself and others. This isn't rocket science. Just look at the most successful programs the last decade or more.
It is very reasonable for a national journalist to take a look at Marquette's team and say, "They can be very good, maybe even great, if somebody steps up to play PG at least as well as Cadougan did."
Quote from: MU82 on September 11, 2013, 09:02:13 AM
I agree wholeheartedly with the Derrick proponents who say we don't need him to score double-digits. But I disagree with those who think all he has to do is be able to advance the ball past midcourt and then pass to a wing 35 feet from the basket, as he has done so far in his career. Any decent walk-on can do that.
How soon we've forgotten the "No Diener, No Chance" sign.
It's a wash.
Buzz will always play both Wilsons:
Derrick for stability, passing, and defense.
Duane for explosiveness and scoring.
So the answer is the two-headed monster wins.
Derrick is gonna be solid. Very solid.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on September 11, 2013, 09:36:47 AM
It's a wash.
Buzz will always play both Wilsons:
Derrick for stability, passing, and defense.
Duane for explosiveness and scoring.
So the answer is the two-headed monster wins.
+1
Just like we have Oxtule at the 5, we will have the D Wils at the 1. They will play approximately the same amount of time on the court. Derrick will get in when we need defense, Duane when we need offense. Starting job will probably go to the veteran Derrick, but just as O'Tule got the starting job over Davante, that doesn't really mean anything.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on September 11, 2013, 09:36:47 AM
It's a wash.
Buzz will always play both Wilsons:
Derrick for stability, passing, and defense.
Duane for explosiveness and scoring.
So the answer is the two-headed monster wins.
I'm hoping this season that Derrick displays the
passing part of this equation. No evidence yet that this is a strength of his. Maybe it will be if he is handed the keys to the offense.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on September 11, 2013, 08:49:06 AM
Derrick has proven to be a very good back-up PG. He takes care of the ball and plays solid D. That's all he's been asked to do at this level. He's never been asked to score or make plays offensively so we don't really know if that's in his repertoire. Personally, I think that if he played 20-25 minutes a night, puts up 6 points, 3 assists and shoots around 30% from 3, Marquette will be in good shape.
I think Derrick does all he can do. No one limits themselves if they have the ability to make the team better. The argument that he does only what Buzz ask him to do is stupid. That would that mean Buzz is telling him not to create assist and not to shoot the ball when wide open. That makes no sense.
A starting point, averaging 3 assist at 25min per is not good.
Quote from: Sunbelt15 on September 11, 2013, 12:14:19 PM
I think Derrick does all he can do. No one limits themselves if they have the ability to make the team better. The argument that he does only what Buzz ask him to do is stupid. That would that mean Buzz is telling him not to create assist and not to shoot the ball when wide open. That makes no sense.
A starting point, averaging 3 assist at 25min per is not good.
Much like a back-up QB, a back-up PG's primary responsibility is to play it safe and take care of the ball (i.e. don't screw it up). That doesn't mean that Buzz is telling him not to create scoring opportunities or to limit himself at the detriment of the team. DW averaged 1 assist/8 minutes played last season (Cadougan's 1 assist/7.4 min) which is a pretty good ratio considering he was often put in for defensive purposes. He didn't shoot when he was open because he wasn't a very good shooter, thus shooting wouldn't be the safe play.
Cordell Henry averaged 3.2 assists in 33 minutes as a senior.
Derricks ast/min. numbers aren't bad.
The question is: With increased usage, can Derrick take another step forward in efficiency?
I'll leave that to Sugar and Blackheart to preview (statistically).
My gut says "yes", and I think he'll be a good 20+min. per game player.
Quote from: Sunbelt15 on September 11, 2013, 12:14:19 PM
I think Derrick does all he can do. No one limits themselves if they have the ability to make the team better.
Maybe, but I expect that Derrick will have more confidence this year which will make him a better player.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on September 11, 2013, 12:35:20 PM
Much like a back-up QB, a back-up PG's primary responsibility is to play it safe and take care of the ball (i.e. don't screw it up). That doesn't mean that Buzz is telling him not to create scoring opportunities or to limit himself at the detriment of the team. DW averaged 1 assist/8 minutes played last season (Cadougan's 1 assist/7.4 min) which is a pretty good ratio considering he was often put in for defensive purposes. He didn't shoot when he was open because he wasn't a very good shooter, thus shooting wouldn't be the safe play.
Cordell Henry averaged 3.2 assists in 33 minutes as a senior.
I'm not usually a stats geek, but I'd welcome some kind of breakdown of the few assists Derrick has gotten. Because just based on recollection, most were of him throwing the ball around outside the arc and somebody catching, taking a dribble or two and then shooting an outside shot. I certainly don't remember any instances of Derrick actually creating an opportunity for a teammate, though there must have been a few of those, right? Right?
Quote from: MU82 on September 11, 2013, 01:08:49 PM
I'm not usually a stats geek, but I'd welcome some kind of breakdown of the few assists Derrick has gotten. Because just based on recollection, most were of him throwing the ball around outside the arc and somebody catching, taking a dribble or two and then shooting an outside shot. I certainly don't remember any instances of Derrick actually creating an opportunity for a teammate, though there must have been a few of those, right? Right?
Paint Touches did some analysis here: http://painttouches.com/2013/08/26/the-art-of-passing-derrick-wilson/
Quote from: TSmith34 on September 11, 2013, 01:16:12 PM
Paint Touches did some analysis here: http://painttouches.com/2013/08/26/the-art-of-passing-derrick-wilson/
Thanks for that link, TS. Here was the telling analysis in that article:
What is possible is to compare Cadougan's percentages and assist chart to next year's presumed starter, Wilson. Say what you will about freshman Duane Wilson — and we've said a lot — but Derrick will get the first nod.
Fourteen of Derrick's 56 tracked assists (we were unable to find 1) last season came in or around the paint, where Wilson either beat his individual defender or outran the opponent's transition defense. That 25 percent mark was much lower than Cadougan's. Further, 25 of his assists (45%) resulted in layups or dunks, lower than Cadougan's 55 percent mark.
In the case of Wilson, his description as a pass-first point guard was as a distributor rather than a facilitator. More times than not he was a product of Marquette's offense as a passer, rather than making plays happen within it.This confirms what many of us suspected. Frankly, I don't remember the 14 assists that came in or around the paint!
Once again, players do improve with hard work. With that, and the increased p.t. he figures to get, maybe he can become a real major-college PG. I guess we'll see soon enough. The opener is less than 2 months away, and Ohio State arrives a week after that.