MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Aircraftcarrier on August 24, 2013, 12:53:39 PM
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With the passing of Dean,I started to think of the great players at Marquette.I hope in the near future that Jim Chones jersey is retired.I believe he deserves it.
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Thanks for postin', Jim.
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Left in middle of season, so I would say no way.
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Al told him to leave and take the money.
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Al told him to leave and take the money.
That's doesnt suddenly mean its ok and he should have his jersey retired. My understanding is that if he doesn't leave that was very likely a championship team.
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Al went to his house and there was nothing in the ice box.
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No Dam Way! We were undefeated or had one loss at the time. Team was awesome.
McNeill had to play center. Weighed around 195. We were out boarded and had no real presence in the middle
after he left. I don't care what Al said. He left the team. Admittingly, He was one of our great players.
:-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
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Besides that ( and maybe he came back and got it), I do not think they should retire a players number unless he has an MU degree.
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Al told him to leave and take the money.
I credit Al for making a decision that was best for the athlete. I can't imagine ever being in such a hard situation. He did what was necessary, that doesn't detract from anything he did while out at MU.
If he had stayed and they didn't win a NC, people would still retire his jersey. Punishing a MU great for doing what Al agreed he had to do, based on a 'could have happened' is tough.
Retire his jersey.
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Besides that ( and maybe he came back and got it), I do not think they should retire a players number unless he has an MU degree.
+1
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Let me get this right.He can be inducted into The M Club Hall of Fame in 2004 but can't have his jersey retired.This looks very bad.Marquette do the right thing and retire his jersey.Many of us would have made the same decision he did if we were in the situation he was.
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Let me get this right.He can be inducted into The M Club Hall of Fame in 2004 but can't have his jersey retired.This looks very bad.Marquette do the right thing and retire his jersey.Many of us would have made the same decision he did if we were in the situation he was.
Not really. Just differing opinions.
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Retire the jersey.
The only centers we have had even close were Jerome Whitehead and JimmyMac. I don't care if he left early. He didn't do a Vander Blue on us. He left after consultation with his coach and to take care of his family. The latter is the best of the Jesuit tradition.
RETIRE CHONES' Jersey
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Retire the jersey.
The only centers we have had even close were Jerome Whitehead and JimmyMac. I don't care if he left early. He didn't do a Vander Blue on us. He left after consultation with his coach and to take care of his family. The latter is the best of the Jesuit tradition.
RETIRE CHONES' Jersey
He didn't do a Vander Blue on us? He left in the middle of the season! 100 times worse.
Look, if he needed the money I don't blame the guy either. (And I don't blame Vander for leaving...he had a right to.) But I can see why leaving mid-year prevents him from getting his jersey retired.
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He didn't do a Vander Blue on us? He left in the middle of the season! 100 times worse.
+1
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If Blue or Wade could've left in the middle of the season, Buzz/Crean would've found out on ESPN. It was a different time and player's had fewer options. The support of college athletes is no where near where it is today. He made a major impact at Marquette, he made a major impact after his time at Marquette, he improved the MU brand even when he left because it made AL look like a saint, and he continues to rep MU positively. He did more for Marquette in 50 games than others did in four years (minus guys already retired).
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The latter is the best of the Jesuit tradition.
LOL
I don't begrudge a guy for doing what he has to do, but let's not get carried away here. He left for big bucks, plain and simple. It might have been the right decision for him, but let's not act like he was taking up a cross or something by leaving MU.
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Ok here's what I don't understand and maybe you guys can fill the blanks for me. Chones was drafted in 73 but left in 72 so that left time where he couldve stayed at MU anyways. Next he was drafted in the second round so wasnt guaranteed anything and wasnt a top pick so not like leaving suddenly got him commercial deals and the like, perhaps if he finished out his year he couldve been a first rounder. I guess all I'm trying to say is did he do anything significant in those what 6 months for his family that he couldn't have while being at MU?
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Ok here's what I don't understand and maybe you guys can fill the blanks for me. Chones was drafted in 73 but left in 72 so that left time where he couldve stayed at MU anyways. Next he was drafted in the second round so wasnt guaranteed anything and wasnt a top pick so not like leaving suddenly got him commercial deals and the like, perhaps if he finished out his year he couldve been a first rounder. I guess all I'm trying to say is did he do anything significant in those what 6 months for his family that he couldn't have while being at MU?
You are imposing 2013 draft rules on the 1973 draft. The rules were a lot different back then, not to mention two different leagues with different sets of rules. I don't know the specifics of why he could do what he did, but what Chones did was completely within the rules of the ABA.
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Ok here's what I don't understand and maybe you guys can fill the blanks for me. Chones was drafted in 73 but left in 72 so that left time where he couldve stayed at MU anyways. Next he was drafted in the second round so wasnt guaranteed anything and wasnt a top pick so not like leaving suddenly got him commercial deals and the like, perhaps if he finished out his year he couldve been a first rounder. I guess all I'm trying to say is did he do anything significant in those what 6 months for his family that he couldn't have while being at MU?
Jim Chones Left MU to play immediately in the ABA (an alternative to the NBA for you youngsters) in 1972. He was drafted by the NBA Laker's in 73, but was already earning a paycheck from the ABA.
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By the way, this was not uncommon when there were two leagues. IIRC, Dr. J played originally in the ABA, but I believe two different NBA teams (Bucks and 76'ers?) drafted his NBA rights.
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I get it now. Thank you for clarifying that. And I know enough about Bball history Archie to know what the ABA is didn't know that it wasn't uncommon though.
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I believe the ABA team was allowed to sign him and forfeit their first rounder. Equivalent to the Sup Draft in the NFL?
Like I said earlier if Blue or Wade could've signed a contract in Feb, we would have 1 less final four run and one less elite 8 run.
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Alternative scenario for those holding this against Chones:
Would you be as bitter if we had a starting PG who led the team deep in the tourney the previous year and was an engineering prodigy who got offered his dream job at a prestigious and well-paying engineering firm?
The whole point of college is to enhance your employment opportunities and grow as a person. I'm sure Chones got more job training and experiences in 2.5 years than most of us in 4.
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Alternative scenario for those holding this against Chones:
Would you be as bitter if we had a starting PG who led the team deep in the tourney the previous year and was an engineering prodigy who got offered his dream job at a prestigious and well-paying engineering firm?
The whole point of college is to enhance your employment opportunities and grow as a person. I'm sure Chones got more job training and experiences in 2.5 years than most of us in 4.
Different situation, in engineering you'd likely be replaceable and the job wouldn't wait. In basketball the draft was still going to be there at the end of the year and he had an opportunity to up his stock in the draft.
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Different situation, in engineering you'd likely be replaceable and the job wouldn't wait. In basketball the draft was still going to be there at the end of the year and he had an opportunity to up his stock in the draft.
Ill give you that the engineer is more replaceable but you honestly think he could've raise his stock? He was a dominant 20/10 guy leading a 21-0 team. Not sure how it could have gone higher. I could be wrong but I assume he was a second round pick in the NBA since he was already under contract with an aba team.
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LOL
I don't begrudge a guy for doing what he has to do, but let's not get carried away here. He left for big bucks, plain and simple. It might have been the right decision for him, but let's not act like he was taking up a cross or something by leaving MU.
I was referring to Al in encouraging Mr. Chones to take the money.
Look, we were on track for a national title. Mr. Chones was an integral part of that effort and our team was, before Mr. Chones departed, probably the best team we ever had.
Al could have told Mr. Chones to stick around and win a national title. But the reality was that Al looked out for his players first. If Mr. Chones had been injured playing for Marquette, he would have lost it all and God knows what would have happened. Al did the right thing, sacrificing Marquette's interest for those of the player.
That said, Jimmy Chones deserves to be in the ring of honor for the impact he had on marquette while he was here
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It's probably easier to do the right thing when you know it's gonna happen anyways. I having a feeling Al knew Chones was leaving either way and was smart enough to encourage him instead of being bitter.
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The ABA's draft was in February. They reportedly offered Chones $1.5 million over 5 years.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1499&dat=19720218&id=HjYdAAAAIBAJ&sjid=mCgEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7042,4771038
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Ill give you that the engineer is more replaceable but you honestly think he could've raise his stock? He was a dominant 20/10 guy leading a 21-0 team. Not sure how it could have gone higher. I could be wrong but I assume he was a second round pick in the NBA since he was already under contract with an aba team.
Yes I do, but I wasn't around back then so I mean that whole ABA team angle could be true I don't really know.
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The ABA's draft was in February. They reportedly offered Chones $1.5 million over 5 years.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1499&dat=19720218&id=HjYdAAAAIBAJ&sjid=mCgEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7042,4771038
Thanks for digging that up. Great article. Chones had no real choice as he and his family were quite poor. My personal memory is that Coach Al was fully supportive of the decision. I'd personally support retiring his number. He just might be the greatest player in MU's history
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What number was he?
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Thanks for digging that up. Great article. Chones had no real choice as he and his family were quite poor. My personal memory is that Coach Al was fully supportive of the decision. I'd personally support retiring his number. He just might be the greatest player in MU's history
Excellent article. Should also note that Chones didn't try to hide what he was doing, like Howard Porter at Villanova did the year prior. The guy was a stud!
Retire the guy's number -- NOW!!!!!
Say hi to Warriorchick!
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Yes I do, but I wasn't around back then so I mean that whole ABA team angle could be true I don't really know.
Well, you should click on the link. It said the NYK were looking to get the number 1 spot in the NBA draft to pick him but failed. It also said he wanted to play in the NY area it was less likely he would've ever played with Portland or Cleveland, especially after signing a 3-year deal (which shows his stock would've been as the top pick). And finally, it said it was a take it or leave it offer so he most likely would've ended up in the less desirable Portland. It turns out the Nets thought he was replaceable. Which goes back to my point, should college student give up his dream job to finish the season?
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He just might be the greatest player in MU's history
All due respect to Jimmy Chones, who had a great Marquette career and a fairly good ABA/NBA career as well, but he was NOT the greatest player in MU's history. Top 5 for sure, not the greatest.
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What number was he?
22. He was the choice to represent the bumblebee unis when MU put out the throwback uni T shirts recently.
(http://www.nasljerseys.com/ABA/Images/College/Marquette%2071-72%20Road%20Jim%20Chones.jpg)
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Well, you should click on the link. It said the NYK were looking to get the number 1 spot in the NBA draft to pick him but failed. It also said he wanted to play in the NY area it was less likely he would've ever played with Portland or Cleveland, especially after signing a 3-year deal (which shows his stock would've been as the top pick). And finally, it said it was a take it or leave it offer so he most likely would've ended up in the less desirable Portland. It turns out the Nets thought he was replaceable. Which goes back to my point, should college student give up his dream job to finish the season?
Which link? A few have been posted because I don't know why but for whatever reason I'm not following your post. I will say this though if you're going to be a pro I don't feel like it should be up to coming out of college to play where you want and because he was picky he left a team that he was irreplaceable for.
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Which link? A few have been posted because I don't know why but for whatever reason I'm not following your post. I will say this though if you're going to be a pro I don't feel like it should be up to coming out of college to play where you want and because he was picky he left a team that he was irreplaceable for.
There has been one link posted in this thread and it links to an old Milwaukee Journal article that talks about why he chose to leave.
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Which link? A few have been posted because I don't know why but for whatever reason I'm not following your post. I will say this though if you're going to be a pro I don't feel like it should be up to coming out of college to play where you want and because he was picky he left a team that he was irreplaceable for.
I think they were referring to my Google archive link to a column from the Milwaukee Journal.
Chones was offered a $1.5 million contract in 1972. He took it because his family needed the money at Al's insistence. If the ABA draft had been in April, he would have stayed in school. End of story.
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There has been one link posted in this thread and it links to an old Milwaukee Journal article that talks about why he chose to leave.
Found it. Very interesting.
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Which link? A few have been posted because I don't know why but for whatever reason I'm not following your post. I will say this though if you're going to be a pro I don't feel like it should be up to coming out of college to play where you want and because he was picky he left a team that he was irreplaceable for.
Chones was "picky" because only a few teams were stable enough to get him money right away. He got close to a million cash, which is life-changing for a poor-black family of 6 with no dad alive to earn income.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1755&dat=19720218&id=trkqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=h2YEAAAAIBAJ&pg=1661,1131919
It wasn't a loophole where he bullied his way on one team over another. You are having a real hard time understanding the market back then. There were two leagues that year and they were competing within the same market. All the players made choices on what league they wanted to play in. The teams also were very flaky and short on cash. You wanted to make sure you were on a stable team. It's not like today where there is one league with a firm CBA that highly compensates draft picks and organizes contracts to allow players freedom. It was a lot more of a free-for-all back then and a lot of players got screwed.
If you have your dream job in your dream city and it is best for you and your family, you take it. Why should athletes be held to a higher standard because we want them to stay selfishly? I was in many different clubs where friends were elected officers and expected to play a huge role in the organization that abruptly resigned due to job offers or internships. We all wished them luck and understood getting the job was more important than anything you did in college. Yeah MU basketball is important, but if a player has a better opportunity for a better life, best of luck.
Unless I'm mistaken, but his record was 49-1 at Marquette? That's crazy.
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All due respect to Jimmy Chones, who had a great Marquette career and a fairly good ABA/NBA career as well, but he was NOT the greatest player in MU's history. Top 5 for sure, not the greatest.
He easily could have been had he stayed another year. he effectively only played less than 2 years on the varsity.
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He easily could have been had he stayed another year. he effectively only played less than 2 years on the varsity.
Not to mention the seasons were shorter. Less than 30 compared to 35 lately. If he had played three full seasons, he probably would be sitting number 1 on points.
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Perhaps the most interesting thing about this discussion is the passion that Mr. Chones' leaving still has after 40 years. I was in high school at the time in the southeast and the Chones departure was a shockwave through college basketball. There was a lot of anger among the faithful because most of us believed we had a really, really strong chance of winning the national title. I'm actually shocked that after 40 years, the anger is still there!
Less avid fans were looking forward to the down-the-road, titanic match-up between Marquette and UCLA in the NCAA tournament.
It didn't help any that we were undefeated that year at the time Mr. Chones left. The following Saturday we played Detroit and lost 70-49. We had a good team, but losing Mr. Chones cut out our heart and soul.
I think it is time to let go. Mr. Chones was among our great ballplayers and he's a great representative for what Marquette stands for. It's time to honor him, precisely because of the emotion that this name brings. The emotion is a sign of what he stood for at Marquette.
We might want to think about honoring Jerome Whitehead while we're at it!
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Jim Chones did return to MU to earn his degree, but long after his playing days were over.
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Jim Chones did return to MU to earn his degree, but long after his playing days were over.
Correct. His family is doing well. I still talk to Kareeda once in a blue moon via Facebook. Great lady and a solid player in her own right for the Lady Warriors back in the day.
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Jim Chones did return to MU to earn his degree, but long after his playing days were over.
Doesn't surprise me. He sat right behind me in Micro-Economics. Not exactly an easy course while you are playing basketball on the number 2 team in the nation.
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Doesn't surprise me. He sat right behind me in Micro-Economics. Not exactly an easy course while you are playing basketball on the number 2 team in the nation.
In those days, Marquette was very proud of its "right of return." The university was committed to doing all it possibly could to help its basketball players get degrees. Some, like Mr. Chones, got them years later, but they got 'em.
In the Al era, I think there was only one or two players that never got their degrees. If there is a testament to Al and what Marquette stood for in our days, that was it! We didn't need an NCAA edict to tell us what was the right thing to do.
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Marquette needs higher standards for jersey retirement.
Retire a player's number only if...
1. He is a Consensus First Team All-American or National POY*
2. He completes his degree.
Honor# a player's number if...
1. He is a Consensus Second or Third Team All-American
or
2. Conference POY
or
3. Consensus First Team All-American or National POY who has not yet completed his degree^
* - NPOY should be 1st team but you never know
# - include his number on a banner with other honored numbers
^ - allows some wiggle room to include Wade on a banner
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Marquette needs higher standards for jersey retirement.
Retire a player's number only if...
1. He is a Consensus First Team All-American or National POY*
2. He completes his degree.
Honor# a player's number if...
1. He is a Consensus Second or Third Team All-American
or
2. Conference POY
or
3. Consensus First Team All-American or National POY who has not yet completed his degree^
* - NPOY should be 1st team but you never know
# - include his number on a banner with other honored numbers
^ - allows some wiggle room to include Wade on a banner
Awww, how cute that you think academics should matter.
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Awww, how cute that you think academics should matter.
From a purely basketball standpoint, academics really shouldn't matter. However, Marquette University's primary mission is that of an academic institution, so it only makes sense that academics would play a role in giving a student athlete the highest level of individual recognition within his sport. It's PR more than anything.
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From a purely basketball standpoint, academics really shouldn't matter. However, Marquette University's primary mission is that of an academic institution, so it only makes sense that academics would play a role in giving a student athlete the highest level of individual recognition within his sport. It's PR more than anything.
Agreed completely. Academics should be a consideration. Marquette is a University first, nothing wrong with using that as a qualification as most of these honors won't be given until years after these guys leave school anyway. Gives them time to fulfill that requirement.
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Agreed completely. Academics should be a consideration. Marquette is a University first, nothing wrong with using that as a qualification as most of these honors won't be given until years after these guys leave school anyway. Gives them time to fulfill that requirement.
The fact Jim Chones came back during/after a successful NBA career to get his degree makes me feel even more like he should have his jersey retired.
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http://owengood.kinja.com/there-are-good-reasons-against-unretiring-retired-numbe-1272561769 (http://owengood.kinja.com/there-are-good-reasons-against-unretiring-retired-numbe-1272561769)