We've already polled college basketball coaches for the most feared recruiters, both assistants and head coaches.
But now it's time to look at the top X's and O's guys in the country, regardless of level. The coaches who scare their counterparts with their ability to diagram plays and have their players carry out those plays.
We polled about two-thirds of the Division I head coaches, and some opted to vote more than once. There were more than 300 total votes cast and there was a clear separation at the top.
Michigan State's Tom Izzo was the runaway winner, with one of his Big Ten rivals finishing in second. Brad Stevens still received plenty of votes (14 in total) despite the fact that he's now in the NBA, and former UCLA head man Ben Howland also got his share (four votes) even though he's unemployed.
Izzo is known for his preparation and ability to get his players to execute. He recruits at a high level, but it's not as though his program has produced a ton of high-level NBA players. He has won a national title and taken the Spartans to a half-dozen Final Four appearances. He's 30-4 as the higher-seeded team in the NCAA tournament and 18-3 in the second game of a weekend NCAA contest.
Here are the top 25 X's and O's head coaches in college basketball (according to the head coaches), with a supporting quote from a peer for each.
T-14. Buzz Williams, Marquette Golden Eagles (6)
Record: 136-71 (6 seasons)
NCAA tournament record: 8-5
"No one studies the game or people more than Buzz. He is consumed with being prepared." -- South Carolina coach Frank Martin
Also, noteworthy, the New Big East only had one other coach in the top 25. JT3 coming in tied for 19th. I am a little taken aback. I truly think we have some of the best young coaches in our conference. Am I really that biased toward the Big East?
Not that ESPN's list means much, but we probably would've had one of the top 3 in the NBE is Stevens didn't go to Boston. ESPN loved to promote him.
Quote from: WI_inferiority_complexes on August 21, 2013, 12:17:33 PM
Not that ESPN's list means much, but we probably would've had one of the top 3 in the NBE is Stevens didn't go to Boston. ESPN loved to promote him.
Obviously doesn't matter any more, but I'm guessing that past-tense will end up applying to most of our league. ESPN may have loved to promote Stevens, but I don't expect they'll go out of their way to promote any of the NBE coaches now and wouldn't have done so for Stevens even had he stayed. We're sort of the CBB flagship of ESPN's first legitimate competition now, so I think they'll do what they can to relegate everyone in the NBE to mid-major status.
^ I agree with brewcity
Yeah, not sure i get the hype on buzz being a great X's and O's coach.
I recall many, many, times our inbouding, and plays after time outs have been horrible.
Quote from: brewcity77 on August 21, 2013, 12:32:57 PM
Obviously doesn't matter any more, but I'm guessing that past-tense will end up applying to most of our league. ESPN may have loved to promote Stevens, but I don't expect they'll go out of their way to promote any of the NBE coaches now and wouldn't have done so for Stevens even had he stayed. We're sort of the CBB flagship of ESPN's first legitimate competition now, so I think they'll do what they can to relegate everyone in the NBE to mid-major status.
Didn't this list come out after the new Big East signed with FS1? If ESPN were truly trying to relegate everyone in the NBE to mid-major status, none of our coaches would be on this list at all.
But lets look at who they left out--that would tell us if they're gaming the system by leaving out the other great Xs and Ox coaches in the league:
Purnell? You're joking, right?
Lavin? Career reputation can be summed up as "great recruiter/lousy coach"
Mack? Led X to their first NCAA miss in eight years as Miller's recruits depart.
McDermott? Biggest success because of a player sharing his last name.
Willard? Gotta do something better than a 2nd round NIT appearance.
Cooley? Main contender for Lavin's "great recruiter/lousy coach" title.
Wright? Only one NCAA win in the last four years.
Based on leaving out these seven coaches, are you really going to argue that ESPN is intentionally trying to make the Big East look bad?
I think they got it exactly right--Stevens would have been far and away the best Xs and Os coach in the league--Buzz and JT3 are the only other two I'd even consider as runners up. And I think both are probably more successful due to recruiting than coaching.
The rest survive on recruiting (if they're surviving at all).
Quote from: JD on August 21, 2013, 02:06:04 PM
Yeah, not sure i get the hype on buzz being a great X's and O's coach.
I recall many, many, times our inbouding, and plays after time outs have been horrible.
Bear in mind that there's a difference between a horrible play and a play that is executed horribly. Give some credit to the players.
Quote from: The Equalizer on August 21, 2013, 02:18:53 PM
Didn't this list come out after the new Big East signed with FS1? If ESPN were truly trying to relegate everyone in the NBE to mid-major status, none of our coaches would be on this list at all.
But lets look at who they left out--that would tell us if they're gaming the system by leaving out the other great Xs and Ox coaches in the league:
Purnell? You're joking, right?
Lavin? Career reputation can be summed up as "great recruiter/lousy coach"
Mack? Led X to their first NCAA miss in eight years as Miller's recruits depart.
McDermott? Biggest success because of a player sharing his last name.
Willard? Gotta do something better than a 2nd round NIT appearance.
Cooley? Main contender for Lavin's "great recruiter/lousy coach" title.
Wright? Only one NCAA win in the last four years.
Based on leaving out these seven coaches, are you really going to argue that ESPN is intentionally trying to make the Big East look bad?
I think they got it exactly right--Stevens would have been far and away the best Xs and Os coach in the league--Buzz and JT3 are the only other two I'd even consider as runners up. And I think both are probably more successful due to recruiting than coaching.
The rest survive on recruiting (if they're surviving at all).
I have to disagree on that one... maybe he is
slightly better at Xs and Os than Buzz, but "far and away" is too much.
Unless you're going to argue that MU was far and away more athletic and talented than Butler, a "far and away" coach shouldn't have needed a low-percentage buzzer-beater to keep him from going 0-2 against Buzz last year.
Quote from: The Equalizer on August 21, 2013, 02:18:53 PM
Didn't this list come out after the new Big East signed with FS1? If ESPN were truly trying to relegate everyone in the NBE to mid-major status, none of our coaches would be on this list at all.
But lets look at who they left out--that would tell us if they're gaming the system by leaving out the other great Xs and Ox coaches in the league:
Purnell? You're joking, right?
Lavin? Career reputation can be summed up as "great recruiter/lousy coach"
Mack? Led X to their first NCAA miss in eight years as Miller's recruits depart.
McDermott? Biggest success because of a player sharing his last name.
Willard? Gotta do something better than a 2nd round NIT appearance.
Cooley? Main contender for Lavin's "great recruiter/lousy coach" title.
Wright? Only one NCAA win in the last four years.
Based on leaving out these seven coaches, are you really going to argue that ESPN is intentionally trying to make the Big East look bad?
I think they got it exactly right--Stevens would have been far and away the best Xs and Os coach in the league--Buzz and JT3 are the only other two I'd even consider as runners up. And I think both are probably more successful due to recruiting than coaching.
The rest survive on recruiting (if they're surviving at all).
Honestly, I'm positive I don't have the capacity to open my mouth wide enough for you to shove all of these words into it that I didn't say. But to simplify, your post is a complete waste of time because it doesn't even remotely begin to address my point.
All I was trying to say is that ESPN isn't likely to go out of their way to do the NBE any favors. Considering the way they seem to be boxing this league into mid-major status every time they discuss us, I don't think I'm really stretching all that far. But if you want to go out of your way to fabricate more stuff that I'm not saying, just start your post with... [ quote=brewcity77 ]
Quote from: Benny B on August 21, 2013, 02:20:36 PM
Bear in mind that there's a difference between a horrible play and a play that is executed horribly. Give some credit to the players.
Yep, i agree Benny, definitely players blame too. I just never thought of Buzz as a brilliant mastermind of a coach when it came to the plays and such. He's definitely good, no doubt, but top 15, eh, i'm not sure.
Quote from: Benny B on August 21, 2013, 02:25:38 PM
I have to disagree on that one... maybe he is slightly better at Xs and Os than Buzz, but "far and away" is too much.
Unless you're going to argue that MU was far and away more athletic and talented than Butler, a "far and away" coach shouldn't have needed a low-percentage buzzer-beater to keep him from going 0-2 against Buzz last year.
I would definitely argue that MU was far and away more athletic and talented than Butler. Credit to Stevens that he won the first matchup and nearly won the second.
I think Buzz is really good at game preparation, but in-game adjustments have been a challenge. There has definitely been progress (see Syracuse game #1), but oftentimes there isn't much of a fall back if the original plan doesn't work well.
Quote from: JD on August 21, 2013, 03:41:11 PM
Yep, i agree Benny, definitely players blame too. I just never thought of Buzz as a brilliant mastermind of a coach when it came to the plays and such. He's definitely good, no doubt, but top 15, eh, i'm not sure.
in my opinion, it's on the coaches (obviously there are individual exceptions)...if the players can't understand what the coach is coaching he either recruited the wrong players or is coaching/teaching in a manner they don't understand.
i would think defining what a good X's and O's coach is would be important. i'd put buzz in a category with a philosophy similar to that of coaches like al or john wooden from a keep it simple stupid standpoint. i think frank martin is right on when he talks about how buzz prepares for teams, but i'd look at crean from and X's and O's standpoint of running 5,000 sets and having much more success on inbound plays, etc. i always feel like MU may lack in that area a bit under buzz because he spends his time focusing on the other things, and not trying to overload his players. instead the focus is simple - ridiculous work ethic, tough as hell, and in top shape. in my opinion, coaches like buzz, al, wooden won/win not because of x's and o's, but because of how they motivate people. coaches like TC seem to rely more on X's and O's...
Quote from: brewcity77 on August 21, 2013, 03:33:28 PM
Honestly, I'm positive I don't have the capacity to open my mouth wide enough for you to shove all of these words into it that I didn't say. But to simplify, your post is a complete waste of time because it doesn't even remotely begin to address my point. All I was trying to say is that ESPN isn't likely to go out of their way to do the NBE any favors.
Considering the way they seem to be boxing this league into mid-major status every time they discuss us, I don't think I'm really stretching all that far. But if you want to go out of your way to fabricate more stuff that I'm not saying, just start your post with... [ quote=brewcity77 ]
Except there are no signs of that at all in this article.
Honestly, which coach do you think they left out that leads you to believe that they're "boxing the league into mid-major status" or "not doing us favors?"
In my opinion, they actually
included the only three NBE coaches that SHOULD rightly have been part of that list.
Sorry, but I don't see that ESPN omitted Willard, Purnell, Lavin or any of the other 7 NBE coaches off this list because they were trying to marginalize the NBE.
They left them off becuase they just didn't deserve to be here in the first place.
Quote from: The Equalizer on August 21, 2013, 04:17:36 PM
Except there are no signs of that at all in this article.
Not just this article...there have been little signs of it in their reporting overall so far.
We'll see what happens when the season starts going.
Quote from: Terror Skink on August 21, 2013, 03:52:21 PM
I think Buzz is really good at game preparation, but in-game adjustments have been a challenge. There has definitely been progress (see Syracuse game #1), but oftentimes there isn't much of a fall back if the original plan doesn't work well.
That's more of a discussion of Crean who was/is abysmal at in-game changes. Buzz's bigger issue is going too long before changing.....
Quote from: Nukem2 on August 21, 2013, 04:24:25 PM
That's more of a discussion of Crean who was/is abysmal at in-game changes. Buzz's bigger issue is going too long before changing.....
Yeah, I don't disagree with this at all.
Quote from: The Equalizer on August 21, 2013, 03:48:10 PM
I would definitely argue that MU was far and away more athletic and talented than Butler. Credit to Stevens that he won the first matchup and nearly won the second.
Stevens definitely was among the best. My media buddy was at a walk through before a Butler game a few years ago and he said that Stevens was easily one of the best Xs and Os college coaches he has ever seen and he used to announce 30+ games a year and is a former high-level player. He was blown away by him. I would absolutely agree that we were way more athletic and talented than them last year.
Quote from: The Equalizer on August 21, 2013, 04:17:36 PM
< Lots of words that have absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making> --brew
Okay...I'll try this again.
I wasn't specifically talking about this article. Nowhere in my post did I specifically reference this article. I was making a generalized statement that while ESPN may have tried to bolster Stevens' reputation in the past, I didn't expect it in the future. Basically, had he stayed at Butler, I don't think they'd constantly be touting him as the wonder-boy he was usually regarded as, and I don't expect ESPN
IN THE FUTURE to go out of their way to try to shine the bums of the NBE schools because we are now clear competition.
ESPN didn't leave anyone out....it's a list voted on by other coaches....coaches who coach at all levels of D-1 basketball
Quote from: The Equalizer on August 21, 2013, 02:18:53 PM
Didn't this list come out after the new Big East signed with FS1? If ESPN were truly trying to relegate everyone in the NBE to mid-major status, none of our coaches would be on this list at all.
But lets look at who they left out--that would tell us if they're gaming the system by leaving out the other great Xs and Ox coaches in the league:
Purnell? You're joking, right?
Lavin? Career reputation can be summed up as "great recruiter/lousy coach"
Mack? Led X to their first NCAA miss in eight years as Miller's recruits depart.
McDermott? Biggest success because of a player sharing his last name.
Willard? Gotta do something better than a 2nd round NIT appearance.
Cooley? Main contender for Lavin's "great recruiter/lousy coach" title.
Wright? Only one NCAA win in the last four years.
Based on leaving out these seven coaches, are you really going to argue that ESPN is intentionally trying to make the Big East look bad?
I think they got it exactly right--Stevens would have been far and away the best Xs and Os coach in the league--Buzz and JT3 are the only other two I'd even consider as runners up. And I think both are probably more successful due to recruiting than coaching.
The rest survive on recruiting (if they're surviving at all).
Quote from: Terror Skink on August 21, 2013, 03:52:21 PM
I think Buzz is really good at game preparation, but in-game adjustments have been a challenge. There has definitely been progress (see Syracuse game #1), but oftentimes there isn't much of a fall back if the original plan doesn't work well.
He has a way to go but he progresses. Decent feel for when to zone, when to press, when to foul late, when not to, etc. I recall not fouling UConn and getting a turnover from Kemba Walker off a 3/4 court press he hadn't seen. The second half against Syracuse in Milwaukee. The defense Stevens hadn't seen at the end of Butler II. Buzz didn't have answers against UNC, Florida 2x, or to Pitino's pressure.
I think the two spots where Buzz is a clear upgrade over Crean is depth of the roster and in-game adjustments. Equal in pre-game prep. Crean did a better job of promoting the program.
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/220561491.html
The legend at #6
I guess it depends if you mean preparing a team versus offense design. I think Buzz understands the game and knows what it takes for his players to win. That said, I don't think anyone would say that Marquette plays a sophisticated offense. It seems really simple to me and relies more on the skills of the players.
Quote from: The Equalizer on August 21, 2013, 03:48:10 PM
I would definitely argue that MU was far and away more athletic and talented than Butler. Credit to Stevens that he won the first matchup and nearly won the second.
I tend to think Butler is far more traditional and fundamentally sound than the far more "athletic and talented" Marquette. Let's face it, Marquette had no player of Rotnei Clark's ability last season. The guy is a marksman from downtown, traditional, yet quite a bit more athletic than Junior Cadougan. Also, Andrew Smith, the great traditional Center with great footwork and great touch, yet is such an inferior athlete to both Chris Otule and Devante Gardner. Let's not forget though that Kyhle Marshall and Roosevelt Jones are no slouch athletes - whom I'd suggest are both more explosive than was the uber athlete Trent Lockett.
But good point 84 - Butler had no business being in that game, if not for the coaching genius of Brad Stevens, paired against the marginal coaching chops of Buzz Williams who only had the benefit of having such great athletes that pulled him through to victory...
The hardest part I had with that poll was who to place at #20: Crean or Ryan!
Quote from: brewcity77 on August 21, 2013, 05:06:28 PM
Okay...I'll try this again.
I wasn't specifically talking about this article. Nowhere in my post did I specifically reference this article.
So I guess I should have known that your post had nothing at all to do with the article being discused in the thread. Sorry about that.
Quote from: brewcity77 on August 21, 2013, 05:06:28 PM
I was making a generalized statement that while ESPN may have tried to bolster Stevens' reputation in the past, I didn't expect it in the future.
Don't you think that its far more likely that Stevens bolstered his own reputation by getting to the national championship game two years in a row, and ESPN merely reflected his performance?
Quote from: brewcity77 on August 21, 2013, 05:06:28 PM
Basically, had he stayed at Butler, I don't think they'd constantly be touting him as the wonder-boy he was usually regarded as, and I don't expect ESPN IN THE FUTURE to go out of their way to try to shine the bums of the NBE schools because we are now clear competition.
And I suspect ESPN's future coverage of Stevens' would mirror his coaching performance at Butler--just like any other coach.
In other words, if Butler made it back to multiple national championship games with Stevens at the helm, I strongly suspect ESPN would still be regarding him as one of the game's great coaches.
Quote from: Ners on August 21, 2013, 05:49:24 PM
I tend to think Butler is far more traditional and fundamentally sound than the far more "athletic and talented" Marquette. Let's face it, Marquette had no player of Rotnei Clark's ability last season. The guy is a marksman from downtown, traditional, yet quite a bit more athletic than Junior Cadougan. Also, Andrew Smith, the great traditional Center with great footwork and great touch, yet is such an inferior athlete to both Chris Otule and Devante Gardner. Let's not forget though that Kyhle Marshall and Roosevelt Jones are no slouch athletes - whom I'd suggest are both more explosive than was the uber athlete Trent Lockett.
But good point 84 - Butler had no business being in that game, if not for the coaching genius of Brad Stevens, paired against the marginal coaching chops of Buzz Williams who only had the benefit of having such great athletes that pulled him through to victory...
Your words, not mine. Thought you were a big fan--what happened?
Meanwhile, I don't think a single person on earth disagrees with the notion that MU had more talent than Butler last year. Or that Stevens is a better coach.
Quote from: The Equalizer on August 21, 2013, 08:03:18 PM
Your words, not mine. Thought you were a big fan--what happened?
sarcasm isn't for everyone...
Quote from: The Equalizer on August 21, 2013, 08:03:18 PM
Your words, not mine. Thought you were a big fan--what happened?
Meanwhile, I don't think a single person on earth disagrees with the notion that MU had more talent than Butler last year. Or that Stevens is a better coach.
Since your sarcasm detector requires teal - I'll spell it out more clearly for you: I'll be that single person on earth that disagrees - I think Buzz is a better coach than Brad Stevens. If someone were to say you could trade Buzz Williams for Brad Stevens right now - you think EVERY Marquette fan would make that trade?? Ludicrous.
Furthermore, part of being a coach in college is recruiting your players - Stevens recruited his, Buzz recruited his - so if there is a talent disparity, blame it on the recruiting chops (or lack thereof) of Stevens. Think his talent was getting pretty thin at Butler anyway, and therefore doesn't come as a great surprise that he bolted for the NBA when he did - as his stock is at an all time high. I'm quite curious to see how he does at the NBA level - quite frankly, I don't think he'll fare all that well. Don't see his style playing well with NBA players.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on August 21, 2013, 06:36:23 PM
The hardest part I had with that poll was who to place at #20: Crean or Ryan!
Looks like the actual coaching profession peers put them at #13 and #14 respectively...they did the heavy lifting for you since they have to face their offensive and defensive schemes night in and night out. :D
Quote from: MuMark on August 21, 2013, 05:07:18 PM
ESPN didn't leave anyone out....it's a list voted on by other coaches....coaches who coach at all levels of D-1 basketball
Aaaaaaaaand the first horse crosses the finish line as the rest are still sputtering on the backstretch.
Quote from: Ners on August 21, 2013, 09:35:12 PM
Since your sarcasm detector requires teal
Obviously, yours does as well.