Interesting study
https://blogs.emory.edu/sportsmarketing/college-football/best-fans-in-college-football/
Our plan is to go conference by conference, and talk about which teams have the most loyal fans. Our approach is data and statistically driven, as we will be looking at how fans support their teams after controlling for how well the team performs.
SEC is the top conference, followed by Big, followed distantly by BigXII and then PAC. Top overall, regardless of conference was Texas (followed by Georgia).
They also applied this methodology to the NFL
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/team-most-loyal-fans-science-says-dallas-cowboys-171057776.html
Cowboys come out on top, Raiders are dead last.
Any methodology that determines the Packers are 14th in fan loyalty is flawed.
even worse that the Browns are 20th
Quote from: forgetful on August 16, 2013, 09:42:15 PM
Any methodology that determines the Packers are 14th in fan loyalty is flawed.
Disagree. Having lived here in the 1980s, Packers fans were as down about their team as anyone, and quite a few seemed to turn on the 4-12 team from a few years back. Packers fans are about as fair-weather as anyone, they just think they are superior because of long season-ticket waitlists, fan "ownership", and being one of the oldest franchises. I'm not saying Packers fans are bad fans, but they're no more or less fickle than other fans.
Quote from: brewcity77 on August 17, 2013, 06:36:57 AM
Disagree. Having lived here in the 1980s, Packers fans were as down about their team as anyone, and quite a few seemed to turn on the 4-12 team from a few years back. Packers fans are about as fair-weather as anyone, they just think they are superior because of long season-ticket waitlists, fan "ownership", and being one of the oldest franchises. I'm not saying Packers fans are bad fans, but they're no more or less fickle than other fans.
+1
Can we please dispense with the "sold-out" crap? It's well known that for decades of the franchise's downturn, corporations bought up tons of season tickets in order to make the stadium "sold-out." I grew up in that area. This hyped up franchise lore is one of the reasons I despise the team.
Quote from: brewcity77 on August 17, 2013, 06:36:57 AM
Disagree. Having lived here in the 1980s, Packers fans were as down about their team as anyone, and quite a few seemed to turn on the 4-12 team from a few years back. Packers fans are about as fair-weather as anyone, they just think they are superior because of long season-ticket waitlists, fan "ownership", and being one of the oldest franchises. I'm not saying Packers fans are bad fans, but they're no more or less fickle than other fans.
Packer fans are very loyal...but very quick to turn on a bad team. Always have been. But "fair weather" fans IMO are those who don't even bother to show up and watch when they are bad. Packer fans still do that.
Quote from: warrior07 on August 17, 2013, 07:28:03 AM
+1
Can we please dispense with the "sold-out" crap? It's well known that for decades of the franchise's downturn, corporations bought up tons of season tickets in order to make the stadium "sold-out."
That's simply not true. Corporations may have bought up the boxes and other indoor seating, but the general seating is by and large owned by individuals.
Quote from: forgetful on August 16, 2013, 09:42:15 PM
Any methodology that determines the Packers are 14th in fan loyalty is flawed.
Any methodology that says the Saints have the 4th most loyal fan base is flawed...
Quote from: warrior07 on August 17, 2013, 07:28:03 AM
+1
Can we please dispense with the "sold-out" crap? It's well known that for decades of the franchise's downturn, corporations bought up tons of season tickets in order to make the stadium "sold-out." I grew up in that area. This hyped up franchise lore is one of the reasons I despise the team.
You are wrong about the corporations buying "tons" of season tickets. I bet there are other reasons you despise the team.
Quote from: brewcity77 on August 17, 2013, 06:36:57 AM
Disagree. Having lived here in the 1980s, Packers fans were as down about their team as anyone, and quite a few seemed to turn on the 4-12 team from a few years back. Packers fans are about as fair-weather as anyone, they just think they are superior because of long season-ticket waitlists, fan "ownership", and being one of the oldest franchises. I'm not saying Packers fans are bad fans, but they're no more or less fickle than other fans.
Fickle? yes, I would buy that. I think Packer fans turn on the coaches and management very quickly when things go bad, but they support the team and show up to fill the stadium regardless. Fans that bitch quickly or are "fickle" as you put it show that they are engaged and care about the team's success. Fair weather fans are fans that are complacent or apathetic when their team sucks.
Having lived in Houston for several years, I know what fair weather fans are. Back in the early 90's the Oilers had a hard time selling out the Astrodome. I remember several games that were blacked out locally. When the team sucked or even when it was good at times, the fans became complacent and turned to other things such as high school football. I am guessing there are many other cities that act the same way about their professional sports
The corporations buying tickets claim is total bunk. The waiting list is 30+ years, how would a corporation swoop in and buy tickets during a couple bad seasons? It's simply not true. What big corporations are in Green Bay anyhow? It's a bunch of farms and paper plants. Theres 100,000 people in Green Bay. Think about that for a minute. What other market even close to that could support an NFL team?
As others have stated, the fans are fickle. They are fickle because unlike any other NFL team, they have real skin in the game. The fans own the team and the city has twice had to bail out the team in its history. But as stated, fans always turn on management or coaches, rarely on players. And the games always sell out. They sit on metal bleachers in zero degree temps.
Quote from: hairyworthen on August 17, 2013, 08:51:50 AMHaving lived in Houston for several years, I know what fair weather fans are. Back in the early 90's the Oilers had a hard time selling out the Astrodome. I remember several games that were blacked out locally. When the team sucked or even when it was good at times, the fans became complacent and turned to other things such as high school football. I am guessing there are many other cities that act the same way about their professional sports
I view fair-weather as probably at least 40% of today's Packer fans. People that rarely if ever go to games but wear a Green Bay jersey every time work allows a Packer Friday or something similar. The people that claim to be die-hard fans when the team is a contender but can't name anyone outside the starting lineups and don't pay any attention in down years. The only reason they have been so "loyal" of late is because the team has only had one losing season in the past 20 or so years. But barely anyone cared about the Packers in the 1980s. You saw more Bears shirts around Milwaukee by far than you did Packer shirts. If Green Bay went in the tank for 5-10 years, you'd see that 40% vanish in a heartbeat. They are the same way with the Brewers (many fans already wandering away) and Bucks (they've been gone since the Big Three era ended).
Brew,
You are completely wrong about everything you wrote
I lived in Milwaukee as an adult in the 80s and there is NO WAY IN HELL there were more bear jerseys floating around than packer jerseys, no way. Sure there are some fair weather fans but the majority of fans are knowledgeable and die hard. And to say most people do not go to games, there is a 40,000 person waiting list for season tickets, and they have sold out every game for years, someone is going to the games. You are not making sense. How do you just get up and go to a game unless you have season tickets.
Quote from: hairyworthen on August 17, 2013, 12:19:12 PM
Brew,
You are completely wrong about everything you wrote
I lived in Milwaukee as an adult and there is NO WAY IN HELL there were more bear jerseys floating around than packer jerseys, no way. Sure there are some fair weather fans but the majority of fans are knowledgeable and die hard. And to say most people do not go to games, there is a 40,000 person waiting list for season tickets, and they have sold out every game for years, someone is going to the games. You are not making sense. How do you just get up and go to a game unless you have season tickets.
In the 80s? Everywhere I went I saw more Bears than Packers stuff. It wasn't until Majkowski and Sharpe, right before Favre came in, that Packers stuff really became popular again.
And you didn't even remotely understand my post if you think I'm talking about the people that go to games. Go to any office and you'll see a bunch of people wearing Packers stuff every week. I'm saying of those people, 40% are fair-weather fans. That doesn't mean there aren't enough out of the 60% to fill the stadium or to follow the team when times are down, but the reason the 40% wears Packers gear and watches Packers games is because they are fashionable (translated: winning). When they weren't winning, they weren't wearing that stuff because it wasn't fashionable.
brew, I am sorry, but you are completely off base on pretty much everything you wrote. I think most Packer fans in Wisconsin have been Packer fans forever.
And you didn't see more Bears shirts. No way. No how.
Packer fans are much more loyal than Brewer or Bucks fans. By a long shot. People very much cared about the Packers in the 70s and 80s.
Brew
How do you go to a game if you can't get a ticket unless you pay $200 each, minimum. There are a lot of good packer fans that do not go to the games.
Believe what you want about the jerseys and bear apparel, you are dead wrong, I am sure there are others that will back me up on that. Believe it or not Chicago sports are not the center of the universe and I would guess over 90% of Wisconsin sports fans give a rats ars about Chicago sports and close to that despise the bears. People did care about the packers in the 80s and they went to the games and believe me they didn't magically become bear fans until majkowski came along. That's so absurd it is not even worth having the discussion
if you think packer fans suddenly would become bear fans after years of a bitter rivalary, you have no idea of what the bear packer rivalry is all about
Quote from: hairyworthen on August 17, 2013, 01:35:15 PM
Brew
How do you go to a game if you can't get a ticket unless you pay $200 each, minimum. There are a lot of good packer fans that do not go to the games.
Believe what you want about the jerseys and bear apparel, you are dead wrong, I am sure there are others that will back me up on that. Believe it or not Chicago sports are not the center of the universe and I would guess over 90% of Wisconsin sports fans give a rats ars about Chicago sports and close to that despise the bears. People did care about the packers in the 80s and they went to the games and believe me that didn't magically become bear fans until majkowski came along. That's so absurd it is not even worth having the discussion
if you think packer fans suddenly would become bear fans after years of a bitter rivalary, you have no idea of what the bear packer rivalry is all about
I will back you up 100% on everything you say. Packer fans *are* fickle...but they are *very* loyal.
Quote from: brewcity77 on August 17, 2013, 06:36:57 AM
Disagree. Having lived here in the 1980s, Packers fans were as down about their team as anyone, and quite a few seemed to turn on the 4-12 team from a few years back. Packers fans are about as fair-weather as anyone, they just think they are superior because of long season-ticket waitlists, fan "ownership", and being one of the oldest franchises. I'm not saying Packers fans are bad fans, but they're no more or less fickle than other fans.
Yup. When I was a student in the 80's going to County Stadium to attend games was a walk in the park. Some of them not sold out, in a small stadium.
Packers fans are great, but winning helped a lot because it was pretty bad support for quite awhile. I still miss ALL MY PACKERS weekly on Lazer 103...classic.
Quote from: brewcity77 on August 17, 2013, 12:55:20 PM
In the 80s? Everywhere I went I saw more Bears than Packers stuff. It wasn't until Majkowski and Sharpe, right before Favre came in, that Packers stuff really became popular again.
And you didn't even remotely understand my post if you think I'm talking about the people that go to games. Go to any office and you'll see a bunch of people wearing Packers stuff every week. I'm saying of those people, 40% are fair-weather fans. That doesn't mean there aren't enough out of the 60% to fill the stadium or to follow the team when times are down, but the reason the 40% wears Packers gear and watches Packers games is because they are fashionable (translated: winning). When they weren't winning, they weren't wearing that stuff because it wasn't fashionable.
From about 1983 to about 1990 the Bears fans were very vocal in Milwaukee area....especially on campus. So many Chicagolanders with plenty of obnoxious spirit about them. I think some Packers fans are forgetting that time period. Sure, Packer fans were "loyal" during that time period, but they were drowned out big time by Bears fans during that period. I went to a few games at County Stadium...Cowboys vs Packers (Boys won..yeah), an epic battle of Lions vs Packers when I think both teams won 3 or 4 games the whole year.
Do folks here not remember the twice annual BAY OF PIGS game between the Bucs and Pack that ESPN would always highlight? Or the weekly syndicated column of the 10 worse football teams in America which often included a mix of college and pro....Kansas, Kansas State, Packers, Lions, Bucs, Columbia U, etc....or when Notre Dame would lose one game they would stick them in there.
The NFC Central was one of the worst divisions in all of sports, definitely the worst in the NFL. That was dreadful football back then and the "support" of the team may have been there, but it was a more silent majority. On campus few people wearing Packers stuff, but when the dimmest glimmer like Majik arrived they would get undies turned inside out like the Super Bowl was around the corner. Some funny stuff. People's memories here are faded....big time.
Anyone remember 1991 Packers vs Colts at County Stadium that drew 42,000 fans? None of the three games in County Stadium that year sold out, including the Cowboys game. Or later that year at Lambeau when they drew only 44,000 for the Lions game?
In 1988, 44K for the Lions game at County Stadium...I was that game. Dreadful.
Quote from: hairyworthen on August 17, 2013, 01:35:15 PM
Brew
How do you go to a game if you can't get a ticket unless you pay $200 each, minimum. There are a lot of good packer fans that do not go to the games.
Believe what you want about the jerseys and bear apparel, you are dead wrong, I am sure there are others that will back me up on that. Believe it or not Chicago sports are not the center of the universe and I would guess over 90% of Wisconsin sports fans give a rats ars about Chicago sports and close to that despise the bears. People did care about the packers in the 80s and they went to the games and believe me they didn't magically become bear fans until majkowski came along. That's so absurd it is not even worth having the discussion
if you think packer fans suddenly would become bear fans after years of a bitter rivalary, you have no idea of what the bear packer rivalry is all about
You're putting words in my mouth that I didn't type. I didn't say anyone became Chicago fans. I'm saying they don't care about football when the Packers suck. They don't watch games on Sundays, they don't wear any football apparel, and thus the already existent Bears fans in the area are more evident than the faux-Packers fans that are only loyal when the team is winning.
I've lived here all my life. I understand just fine what the Packer/Bear rivalry is all about. But anyone who mystifies Packers fans as some wondrous fanbase that was just as dedicated in the 1980s when the team sucked as they were when the team had their rebirth under Ron Wolf is full of crap. Packers fans in the 1980s were about as visible and dedicated as Bucks fans are now.
Quote from: brewcity77 on August 17, 2013, 01:48:06 PM
I've lived here all my life. I understand just fine what the Packer/Bear rivalry is all about. But anyone who mystifies Packers fans as some wondrous fanbase that was just as dedicated in the 1980s when the team sucked as they were when the team had their rebirth under Ron Wolf is full of crap. Packers fans in the 1980s were about as visible and dedicated as Bucks fans are now.
Pay the man his bonus now....nailed it.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 17, 2013, 01:53:33 PM
Pay the man his bonus now....nailed it.
Says the guy who grew up in California and didn't move here until the Ron Wolf era started.
Don't be so purposefully belligerent.
Quote from: brewcity77 on August 17, 2013, 01:48:06 PM
You're putting words in my mouth that I didn't type. I didn't say anyone became Chicago fans. I'm saying they don't care about football when the Packers suck. They don't watch games on Sundays, they don't wear any football apparel, and thus the already existent Bears fans in the area are more evident than the faux-Packers fans that are only loyal when the team is winning.
I've lived here all my life. I understand just fine what the Packer/Bear rivalry is all about. But anyone who mystifies Packers fans as some wondrous fanbase that was just as dedicated in the 1980s when the team sucked as they were when the team had their rebirth under Ron Wolf is full of crap. Packers fans in the 1980s were about as visible and dedicated as Bucks fans are now.
You can keep typing it brew...it's still 100% wrong.
Quote from: Terror Skink on August 17, 2013, 02:13:56 PM
Says the guy who grew up in California and didn't move here until the Ron Wolf era started.
Don't be so purposefully belligerent.
Ron Wolf was hired in 1991...my senior year. I went to plenty of games prior to Ron Wolf. Maybe a little fact checking by you would be good. ;)
I actually grew up in Texas, Panama, Peru, California, etc.
Here were some of the games I went to.... 1991 Packers vs Colts at County Stadium 42,000 fans. None of the three games in County Stadium that year sold out, including the Cowboys game (which I went to). Or later that year at Lambeau when they drew only 44,000 for the Lions game. Those were the start of the Ron Wolf era.
In 1988, 44K for the Lions game at County Stadium...I was that game. Dreadful. Went to a few others in the pre-Wolf era, dreadful support. Reminded me of the stellar support UW-madison was getting while playing #1 Miami at Camp Randall and drawing about 35K if I recall. Dreadful
Who could forget this weekly event on Lazer 103. It was classic and the Bears fans couldn't stop laughing...I give Packers fans credit because they were laughing as well.
ALL MY PACKERS
http://www.youtube.com/v/UZMncuji-Ic
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 17, 2013, 01:53:33 PM
Pay the man his bonus now....nailed it.
Ok like I said believe what you want. You and brew are both off base maybe you needed to get off campus.
Brew your statement that the packer support of the 80s was the same as bucks support now is laughable. Of course the fan support goes down when the team is losing but in general the packer fans are extremely loyal.
For those that were around in the 1980's...a trip down memory lane with several All My Packers. Great stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/v/JfrPGxN_GMM
http://www.youtube.com/v/hUA_2QtzJfs
http://www.youtube.com/v/qSMtTwow1jU
http://www.youtube.com/v/-iYyc-cMfrM
http://www.youtube.com/v/Bkv5GjU8SR0
http://www.youtube.com/v/H4EbIHZNxqQ
http://www.youtube.com/v/08xohjyuimA
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 17, 2013, 02:19:14 PM
Ron Wolf was hired in 1991...my senior year. I went to plenty of games prior to Ron Wolf. Maybe a little fact checking by you would be good. ;)
I actually grew up in Texas, Panama, Peru, California, etc.
Here were some of the games I went to.... 1991 Packers vs Colts at County Stadium 42,000 fans. None of the three games in County Stadium that year sold out, including the Cowboys game (which I went to). Or later that year at Lambeau when they drew only 44,000 for the Lions game. Those were the start of the Ron Wolf era.
In 1988, 44K for the Lions game at County Stadium...I was that game. Dreadful. Went to a few others in the pre-Wolf era, dreadful support. Reminded me of the stellar support UW-madison was getting while playing #1 Miami at Camp Randall and drawing about 35K if I recall. Dreadful
Oh...so I was wrong about when you were in school.
But do you know why people didn't attend games in County Stadium? It wasn't because they were "fair-weather." It's because the stadium sucked horribly for football games. Out of the 60,000 (or so) seats, about 10,000 had any sort of decent view.
At the same time that was going on, Lambeau was packed for every game and there was a season ticket waiting list. My family has been on that list since the late 70s, but never went to games at County Stadium. Hell, I remember watching "blacked out" County Stadium games in jam packed downtown Milwaukee bars because you couldn't see anything from the seats that were still available. And this was after they got good under Wolf.
You and brew are simply wrong.
Quote from: hairyworthen on August 17, 2013, 02:21:27 PM
Ok like I said believe what you want. You and brew are both off base maybe you needed to get off campus.
Brew your statement that the packer support of the 80s was the same as bucks support now is laughable. Of course the fan support goes down when the team is losing but in general the packer fans are extremely loyal.
So we should ignore the attendance figures I gave previously...apparently those people not only got off campus they got so far off campus (and out of the state) they didn't bother to attend the games. LOL
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 17, 2013, 02:29:43 PM
So we should ignore the attendance figures I gave previously...apparently those people not only got off campus they got so far off campus (and out of the state) they didn't bother to attend the games. LOL
Is there anything for which you don't view yourself as an expert?
I don't think I have encountered someone who is so incredibly wrong so often, yet continues to insist he is right. It's amazing.
Quote from: Terror Skink on August 17, 2013, 02:28:52 PM
Oh...so I was wrong about when you were in school.
But do you know why people didn't attend games in County Stadium? It wasn't because they were "fair-weather." It's because the stadium sucked horribly for football games. Out of the 60,000 (or so) seats, about 10,000 had any sort of decent view.
At the same time that was going on, Lambeau was packed for every game and there was a season ticket waiting list. My family has been on that list since the late 70s, but never went to games at County Stadium. Hell, I remember watching "blacked out" County Stadium games in jam packed downtown Milwaukee bars because you couldn't see anything from the seats that were still available. And this was after they got good under Wolf.
You and brew are simply wrong.
So these overly loyal fans that have a chance to be heard and cheer on their team are not going because the stadium wasn't great? Sounds like loyalty defined. ;) Having attended a number of games at County Stadium, I don't disagree with you on the aesthetics, but when you have only 8 home games every year, these loyal fans should be going regardless of where the game is played....Lambeau or County. Certain games they managed to get 55K in there, and others they couldn't get 43K....did they change the configuration for those games or were they willing to suck it up and still be there?
As I also pointed out, games in Lambeau had some terrible showings as well. Plenty of games where they couldn't even draw 50K during that time period. I realize there was the snow bowl where less than 20K arrived in 1985, I'm talking other games where fans just decided they weren't so loyal.
I don't think we are wrong at all...Packers fans were pretty quiet in the 1980's and Bears fans very vocal. Packers fans had trouble getting to games apparently in the 1980's as well, for such a loyal fan base. I would expect a packed house for every game, and that's not what happened. Sometimes woefully short in that department. This isn't a rip on the Packers fans, it happens everywhere, but for some reason Packers fans think it doesn't apply to them. It most certainly does, the numbers don't lie...even in Lambeau. Bad team, people stay home.
Chicos
Every resource I could find says the packers sold out every game since 1965, a record. Does not square with your account
Quote from: hairyworthen on August 17, 2013, 03:03:38 PM
Chicos
Every resource I could find says the packers sold out every game since 1965, a record. Does not square with your account
In Green Bay. They did not sell out all their games in Milwaukee.
Quote from: Terror Skink on August 17, 2013, 03:20:58 PM
In Green Bay. They did not sell out all their games in Milwaukee.
I don't think so skink. I am not computer saavy enough to attach the articles, but from several different sources including js, the sell out record dates back to 1960 And DOES include co stadium. I think chicos is talking out of his ass again. His wife must be a saint
Quote from: Terror Skink link=topic=39500.msg510605#msg510605 date=
Quote from: hairyworthen on August 17, 2013, 03:34:09 PM
I don't think so skink. I am not computer saavy enough to attach the articles, but from several different sources including js, the sell out record dates back to 1960 And DOES include co stadium. I think chicos is talking out of his ass again. His wife must be a saint
I remember when they blacked out games because they weren't sold out in Milwaukee.
Quote from: Terror Skink on August 17, 2013, 03:58:00 PM
I remember when they blacked out games because they weren't sold out in Milwaukee.
I do kind of remember that too although none in the 80s for sure. Maybe preseason. Anyway, everything I read says sold out since 1960 including milwaukee
Hairy, I remember sitting downtown watching a pirated game against the Tampa Bay Bucs in Favre's first year...and they were in the playoff hunt. (I was sitting next to Marc Marotta too.) Now they could simply not have met the blackout deadline and eventually sold out...and that could be what the issue is.
Quote from: hairyworthen on August 17, 2013, 03:34:09 PM
I don't think so skink. I am not computer saavy enough to attach the articles, but from several different sources including js, the sell out record dates back to 1960 And DOES include co stadium. I think chicos is talking out of his ass again. His wife must be a saint
On December 13, 1987,
47,059 came to see the Packers host the Vikings at County Stadium. Earlier that season,
50,624 came to County to see the GB host Denver while
50,038 saw them host Tampa Bay.
1988 saw crowds of 51,932 and
44,327 at County, while '89 saw crowds of 54K, 53K and 55K
Unless County Stadium kept elminating and replacing 7,000+ seats, the Packers did not sell out every game at County. (I don't care about the Packers and honestly rarely watch any football, so I haven't looked at any other years).
WI inferiority,
Could be the difference between tickets sold and fannies in seat.
Saw a large correlation to Forbes' franchise value rankings. If anything, Forbes might have been closer with some than the list that was actually trying to measure it. The Jaguars sea of empty...ahem, "closed off to avoid blackout" seats aren't in the bottom five?
Top 5 "Fan Loyalty", and Forbes team value:
1. Cowboys (1)
2. Patriots (2)
3. Jets (6)
4. Saints (23) - outlier
5. Giants (4)
And the Bottom 5:
28. Lions (28)
29. Buccaneers (17) - outlier
30. Cardinals (24)
31. Falcons (26)
32. Raiders (32)
Quote from: hairyworthen on August 17, 2013, 03:03:38 PM
Chicos
Every resource I could find says the packers sold out every game since 1965, a record. Does not square with your account
I don't recall saying anything where they didn't sell out. I said getting fans there...i.e. fannies in the seats. The NFL is the only organization that I'm aware of that reports people in the seats, not tickets sold. In other words, they report no-shows.
Lots of no shows in the 1980's by the loyal fans.
Let me give you a few examples...starting in 1985 Lambeau's capacity was 56,926 people after adding 663 club seats. In 1990, the capacity increased to 59,543.
OK, so now we know where the capacity is, yet here are the numbers of people that showed up
12-1-85 19,856 The famous snow bowl against Tampa...ok, bad weather, we'll give you that one.
11-9-86 47,728 (almost 10K no shows...83.8% of capacity)
12-7-86 47,637 (" " ")
10-11-87 35,779 (strike game with replacement players, we'll give you that one)
10-18-87 35,842 (" " " " ")
12-11-88 48,892 (against the Vikings no less)
12-12-90 46,700 (78.4% of capacity..against the Lions)
12-15-91 43,881 (I was at the game....73.7% of capacity)
A whole slew of games between 50K and 53K...not bad, but about 88% to 92% capacity
During the same time, a bunch in Milwaukee that weren't at capacity, and some that were.
Look, Packers are great fans, but they respond just like most other sets of fans when the team is bad. They stay home. To hear the "legend" about certain fan groups, Packers included, you would think that despite rain, shine, snow, or zero wins they are packing every seat in the stadium. Sorry, facts get in the way. Didn't happen. I don't know why Packer fans are so defensive about it, it is what it is. Now I may be accused of
only living in Wisconsin for 11 years so that isn't long enough to understand, but Brew has lived there his whole life. I know what I saw in those 11 years which included massive suckitude in the 80's and then a great team that went to back to back Super Bowls in the 90's. The level of fandom during the latter was on steroids vs when they sucked....as would be expected. People came out of the woodwork.
The whole methodology was flawed. I'm surprised that people disagree with Green Bay having the most loyal fans. They stick with their team no matter what, they'll complain about them, but they are still big GB fans.
Compare that to the Cowboys who are number 1. They do bail on their team each year if they are struggling. They are number 1, because they manipulate the stadium capacity to use the low end configuration, but then alter the seating arrangement if they want to, leading to an over 100% of capacity. That doesn't reflect actual capacity, since they are short changing it.
It's like if GB could increase capacity when the Bears are in town to be 100k, but dial it back down to 70k for everyone else.
A good idea of how loyal fans are. Green Bay is one of only 3 teams averaging over 100% of capacity on the road. The other two, Bears and Pitt.
You chose 8 games over a 6 year time span and all were sold out but that's neither here nor there. I am not defensive. Brew made the assertion that packer fans are fair weather fans going so far as to say he saw more bear apparel in Milwaukee than packers in the 80s. I am saying that is ridiculous and definitely not the case
Of course fan support goes down when the team Sucks, the bottom line is fans still bought the tickets. No team has had such a sell out streak through good and bad times. it is not just me saying it. You are big on research, look it up, packer fans are consistently at or near the top in team loyalty
Hairy...here is an article that actually referenced the game I talked about.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1368&dat=19921125&id=KoVQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=8BIEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4579,6555984
Now I am not sure if it ended up selling out or not.
But I will point out that the Indy game that Chicos references would have been within that 10 game window, and therefore those attendance figures are likely those who showed up and not just tickets sold.
Quote from: Terror Skink on August 17, 2013, 09:21:33 PM
Hairy...here is an article that actually referenced the game I talked about.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1368&dat=19921125&id=KoVQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=8BIEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4579,6555984
Now I am not sure if it ended up selling out or not.
But I will point out that the Indy game that Chicos references would have been within that 10 game window, and therefore those attendance figures are likely those who showed up and not just tickets sold.
Interesting I do vaguely remember that. The funny thing is many teams would love to have an almost sell out with a horrendus team. Those packer teams were hard to like, lots of off field problems too.
Quote from: hairyworthen on August 17, 2013, 09:35:52 PM
Interesting I do vaguely remember that. The funny thing is many teams would love to have an almost sell out with a horrendus team. Those packer teams were hard to like, lots of off field problems too.
That year was Holmgren and Favre's first year. They were in the middle of a big winning streak at that point. Ironically the next week shows a lower attendance, but I distinctly remember watching that game on television.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Green_Bay_Packers_season
Quote from: hairyworthen on August 17, 2013, 08:41:49 PM
You chose 8 games over a 6 year time span and all were sold out but that's neither here nor there. I am not defensive. Brew made the assertion that packer fans are fair weather fans going so far as to say he saw more bear apparel in Milwaukee than packers in the 80s. I am saying that is ridiculous and definitely not the case
Of course fan support goes down when the team Sucks, the bottom line is fans still bought the tickets. No team has had such a sell out streak through good and bad times. it is not just me saying it. You are big on research, look it up, packer fans are consistently at or near the top in team loyalty
1) You are propagating the false mythos that leads to the Packers fan superiority that is simply not true. But fine...so be it. When the screw inevitably turns, tons of Packers fans will dry up.
2) How many individual seats do the Packers sell? Isn't every seat at Lambeau a season ticket? A sellout streak means little if all the seats aren't being used. In addition, the Packers are hardly the only NFL team with thousands of their names on a season ticket waiting list. Atlanta, Chicago, New England, Denver, New Orleans, and many more have thousands of names on their wait lists. The Packers aren't close to unique in that regard.
3) So this article is false because they found the Packers aren't anything special, but all the other sources are accurate because they tell you what you want to hear? The Packers have the most overrated fanbase I've ever seen that is only propped up by the fortune of following Favre with Rodgers.
4) Go ahead. Believe the Packers fans are some supernatural entity of loyalty. I disagree and my own experience here has taught me that. I'm not saying no one cared in the 1980s, but a huge portion of people that "care" now wouldn't give a crap if the team wasn't winning.
Brew,
we just disagree, your supporting evidence is very weak. You saying the fan base is over rated does not make it so. it is not just me saying it. There are plenty of publications reporting the same thing.
Quote from: hairyworthen on August 17, 2013, 09:55:23 PM
Brew,
we just disagree, your supporting evidence is very weak. You saying the fan base is over rated does not make it so. it is not just me saying it. There are plenty of publications reporting the same thing.
EDIT: I'm going to excuse myself from this one. It's an impossible argument because it basically comes down to conflicting opinions of the 1980s and agreeing with different studies. Until the Packers have another bad decade or so, all we can debate is our personal memories, which of course aren't very debatable.
Quote from: hairyworthen on August 17, 2013, 08:41:49 PM
You chose 8 games over a 6 year time span and all were sold out but that's neither here nor there. I am not defensive. Brew made the assertion that packer fans are fair weather fans going so far as to say he saw more bear apparel in Milwaukee than packers in the 80s. I am saying that is ridiculous and definitely not the case
Of course fan support goes down when the team Sucks, the bottom line is fans still bought the tickets. No team has had such a sell out streak through good and bad times. it is not just me saying it. You are big on research, look it up, packer fans are consistently at or near the top in team loyalty
I never said they didn't buy tickets nor at or near the top in "loyalty", however that is measured. There isn't a whole lot going on up in Green Bay, of course they are going to buy tickets and will for generations to come. To me, that's the easy part. The loyalty part comes in when the chips are down, the weather is cold an you only have to go to 8 games a year and you stay home. That shows loyalty.
I chose those games as some of the bigger outliers, but there are many more. My point is that there is a perception out there that the Packer fans are somehow immune to this stuff when the team sucks, and they are not. There are diehard Packer fans (just as there are Cowboys, Skins, Lions, etc, etc) and bandwagoners. It is what it is. To this day, I'll bet people that claimed to be at the Icebowl reached 250K even though the stadium back then held 50K. ;D
I'm with Brew on this, people getting way to defensive. I know what I saw in the 1980's vs the 1990's when they were winning, the comparisons are so on the opposite sides of the spectrum it isn't funny. In the 1990's I used to go out and golf on the public courses on Sundays because no one was there, I could get a round down in 2.5 hours. It was great. In the 1980's, not even close. Doesn't mean there weren't diehards in the 1980's, of course there were, but they were often quiet, or stewing in their beer because the team sucked so bad. For those of us out of staters, we used to just watch and laugh while the Bears students would just pile drive the Packers students every Sunday. Not much the Packer fans could do, there was no comparison on the field.
Quote from: forgetful on August 17, 2013, 08:04:29 PM
The whole methodology was flawed. I'm surprised that people disagree with Green Bay having the most loyal fans. They stick with their team no matter what, they'll complain about them, but they are still big GB fans.
Compare that to the Cowboys who are number 1. They do bail on their team each year if they are struggling. They are number 1, because they manipulate the stadium capacity to use the low end configuration, but then alter the seating arrangement if they want to, leading to an over 100% of capacity. That doesn't reflect actual capacity, since they are short changing it.
It's like if GB could increase capacity when the Bears are in town to be 100k, but dial it back down to 70k for everyone else.
A good idea of how loyal fans are. Green Bay is one of only 3 teams averaging over 100% of capacity on the road. The other two, Bears and Pitt.
Care to expand on this? The capacity is fixed, but they are one of the few stadiums that has standing room only tickets. The capacity is 80,000 for fixed seats, which is also what the NFL uses to set their limits. No one is manipulating their attendance, this is how the NFL counts capacity based on fixed seats. Now, the Cowboys can sell SRO which don't have a seat and that number of people in the building can climb for special events, etc. The capacity never changes per the NFL, it is 80,000.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 18, 2013, 02:14:55 PM
Care to expand on this? The capacity is fixed, but they are one of the few stadiums that has standing room only tickets. The capacity is 80,000 for fixed seats, which is also what the NFL uses to set their limits. No one is manipulating their attendance, this is how the NFL counts capacity based on fixed seats. Now, the Cowboys can sell SRO which don't have a seat and that number of people in the building can climb for special events, etc. The capacity never changes per the NFL, it is 80,000.
They also place a significant number of removable seats. Not a fixed seat so it doesn't count, but was officially built into the building design for this purpose. They fit over 100,000 into seats for the superbowl.
The methodology here used Percent capacity as a significant factor in its analysis. So by virtue of their ability to go beyond capacity they are likely to be ranked higher, although it does not reflect actual capacity.
Actual capacity would be the maximum number of fans permitted in the building, thus they are almost always below capacity as they can not fill their building.
Comparing teams that can go above 100% to teams that are capped at 100% and using that value as an indicator of fan support is by definition a biased methodology, and thus a poor methodology.
Packer fans are loyal...but there's a lot of bandwagon jumpers that need to exit the Packer bus.
Quote from: forgetful on August 18, 2013, 02:24:15 PM
They also place a significant number of removable seats. Not a fixed seat so it doesn't count, but was officially built into the building design for this purpose. They fit over 100,000 into seats for the superbowl.
The methodology here used Percent capacity as a significant factor in its analysis. So by virtue of their ability to go beyond capacity they are likely to be ranked higher, although it does not reflect actual capacity.
Actual capacity would be the maximum number of fans permitted in the building, thus they are almost always below capacity as they can not fill their building.
Comparing teams that can go above 100% to teams that are capped at 100% and using that value as an indicator of fan support is by definition a biased methodology, and thus a poor methodology.
According to the article I just read, actually only had seats for 95K, by adding 15K temporary seats for that event only...the rest were SRO.
That was my point, they don't do this for the Cowboys regular season, so there is no manipulating going on. Seating capacity is 80K for Cowboys games and they can go over that with SRO, but not with seats.
this was the best play for the Packers in the 1980's ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTLlaMY_9PM
Once I was able to get my hands on a ticket for a GB game at County Stadium because it was too fricking cold for some but those games were always sold out
Maybe on Marquette's campus the Bears were better represented but get away from all of the students from IL and you would have a different perspective and remember the 80's was a high water mark for the Bears, the only time they have won a Super Bowl but give them credit at least they won one Jay Bee
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 19, 2013, 01:16:52 AM
According to the article I just read, actually only had seats for 95K, by adding 15K temporary seats for that event only...the rest were SRO.
That was my point, they don't do this for the Cowboys regular season, so there is no manipulating going on. Seating capacity is 80K for Cowboys games and they can go over that with SRO, but not with seats.
If you were taking a class and the score is out of 100 points, and all your tests only had 100 points available, but some of the students had 120 points available. You are all scored the same, total number of points achieved.
Would you think this was a fair test of your ability?
That's what is going on in this study...fundamentally flawed. Poor performance from Emory.
Quote from: Terror Skink on August 17, 2013, 03:20:58 PM
In Green Bay. They did not sell out all their games in Milwaukee.
Back in the day I would gladly drive to Lambeau for a game.
Would sometimes turn down free tickets to County Stadium. My cousin is a big Viking fan. Came to Milwaukee for a game. Had to apologize for the lame seats.
Quote from: Red Stripe on August 19, 2013, 09:41:12 AM
this was the best play for the Packers in the 1980's ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTLlaMY_9PM
Once I was able to get my hands on a ticket for a GB game at County Stadium because it was too fricking cold for some but those games were always sold out
Maybe on Marquette's campus the Bears were better represented but get away from all of the students from IL and you would have a different perspective and remember the 80's was a high water mark for the Bears, the only time they have won a Super Bowl but give them credit at least they won one Jay Bee
To be honest, this was probably the best Packer play of the 80s...and it was right at the beginning of the decade.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KA2fHoUkG2g