In baseball, the concept of a "five tool guy", a scout system that evaluates young talent, was brought to public light in the movie Moneyball. Basketball Digest has published an article on their "five tool guy" version of a baseball's team Triple Crown: Players who have statistically led their NBA team in Points, Rebounds, Assists, Steals and Blocks in a single season.
Incredibly, only six NBA players have ever accomplished this standard in the statistical history of the NBA/ABA, all Hall of Famers (or certain). These are: Julius Erving (1975-76 NY Nets), Dave Cowens (1977-78 Boston Celtics), Scottie Pippen (1994-95 Chicago Bulls), Tracy McGrady (2002-03 Orlando Magic), Kevin Garnett (2002-03 Minnesota Timberwolves) and LeBron James (2008-09 Cleveland Cavaliers).
A couple of observations: Each of these players achieved this elite milestone in a non-championship season. Second, each of these players (although some are taller) possess a "switchable" skill set. Third, looking back at John Pudner's book Ultimate Hoops Guide—Marquette University and the Sports Reference/College Basketball website, only one Marquette player has achieved this lofty status in the Statistical Age (since 1950): Dwyane Wade in 2001-02 (not the Final 4 year). Fourth, according to the book Scorecasting, it takes three All-Stars to advance to a championship (see the first point).
In other versions by various basketball experts, the definition of five tools in rating talent takes a slightly different look, mainly because a volume scorer and a jump shooter are more valued in today's game since the trey line has been adopted. So, these versions consider these as the "five tools": 1) The ability to 1) create a shot, 2) to defend a position, 3) to shoot jumpers, 4) to rebound, and 5) to pass the ball.
Keeping in mind Buzz's switchables philosophy, how would I rate this upcoming team on the "five tools"?
• Jamil Wilson: Leads all returning players in three point shooting, rebounding and assists, is second in points, and in terms of defending, was second in blocks and third in steals despite not starting most of the year.
• Chris Otule: Can defend.
• Davante Gardner: Creates points, good rebounder and passer.
• Todd Mayo: Shot creation and defense.
• Derrick Wilson: Pass the ball and defense.
• Juan Anderson: Defend/steals, rebound, and his three point shot seems improved.
• Steve Taylor: Rebound, blocks/defend, shot creation
• Jake Thomas: Jump shooting
• John Dawson: Jump shooting
• JaJuan Johnson: Jump shooting and shot creation
• Jameel McKay: Rebounding, defense/blocks, shot creation (inside)
• Duane Wilson: Shot creation, jump shooting, passing
• Deonte Burton: Led MU players in two registered Pro Am statistics: Shot creation and rebounding
As a redshirt senior, Jamil is the only complete five tool player on MU's roster, which is why he should attract NBA attention. I can see Burton developing into that player as an upperclassman. However, let's hope not one who leads a MU team in every category as that means MU's post-season success will likely be tamped down. With Davante, Jamil and a high potential pool of talent ready to advance their skills to the next level this season, will MU have three AA's or All Big East players for another deep run? Who will that be? My step-up candidate is Juan Anderson. Whose yours?
Is Juan going to see major minutes this year? I am not positive yet, is it Mayo or Juan getting the major minutes at the 2? How about Johnson, where does he fit? Who starts at the
3? Does Juan? Or does Wilson? Where does Burton fit? A lot of questions still to be answered? Good problems, practice will be fun to watch. Steve Taylor and Mayo off surgery? Do
they fall behind? Juan does have an opportunity to get more minutes.
Quote from: BCHoopster on August 09, 2013, 08:30:16 AM
Is Juan going to see major minutes this year? I am not positive yet, is it Mayo or Juan getting the major minutes at the 2? How about Johnson, where does he fit? Who starts at the
3? Does Juan? Or does Wilson? Where does Burton fit? A lot of questions still to be answered? Good problems, practice will be fun to watch. Steve Taylor and Mayo off surgery? Do
they fall behind? Juan does have an opportunity to get more minutes.
Good problems. I like it.
As ESPN's ScoreCenter App calls him:
Jr., Steve
Quote from: Benny B on August 09, 2013, 09:44:24 AM
As ESPN's ScoreCenter App calls him:
Jr., Steve
Pretty subjective: Example: Juan can defend? Juan can rebound? What basis?
I'm hoping Buzz plays Jamil at the #3 spot to maximize our team's major strength: The Interior (so weird, right?).
Then that puts Otule/Garder, Taylor/McKay, and Jamil on the floor at the same time. Juan/Mayo/Burton/JJJ can then (somehow) share the 40 minutes at the #2 and the ~10 minutes at the #3 needed to give Jamil a break.
Quote from: willie warrior on August 09, 2013, 10:52:54 AM
Pretty subjective: Example: Juan can defend? Juan can rebound? What basis?
Agreed. On the perimeter he isn't bad, but the post?
It'll be interesting to see him play a more natural position this year. If he breaks out, this is it.
5 tool guys:
PTM
4never
Jaybee
Blackheart
Jsglow
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on August 09, 2013, 12:05:54 PM
5 tool guys:
PTM
4never
Jaybee
Blackheart
Jsglow
Can we call them "tools" for short?
Quote from: Benny B on August 09, 2013, 09:44:24 AM
As ESPN's ScoreCenter App calls him:
Jr., Steve
I agree.
But as excited as I am about Taylor's upside, I'm possibly even more excited that he may be pushed out of extended minutes because others just can't be kept off the floor. If last year's team was deep, then this year's has the possibility to be Marianas-Trench deep.
BTW, I pointed out EPSN's sleight to him last season. Glad to see they haven't fixed it and he can continue to use it as motivation. Can't wait to see what FS1 does with that if he breaks out.
Quote from: willie warrior on August 09, 2013, 10:52:54 AM
Pretty subjective: Example: Juan can defend? Juan can rebound? What basis?
.
Juan was 12th in the legacy Big East in defensive rebounding rate and 20th in steal percent. He led MU last year in defensive rebounding percent and was first among MU players in steal percentage among players who played more than five minutes a game (Jamal was a bit higher but Juan played 32% of the team minutes). Nothing subjective about it.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on August 09, 2013, 05:29:46 PM
.
Juan was 12th in the legacy Big East in defensive rebounding rate and 20th in steal percent. He led MU last year in defensive rebounding percent and was first among MU players in steal percentage among players who played more than five minutes a game (Jamal was a bit higher but Juan played 32% of the team minutes). Nothing subjective about it.
Totally subjective, because willie didn't see it that way.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on August 09, 2013, 12:05:54 PM
5 tool guys:
PTM
4never
Jaybee
Blackheart
Jsglow
Some in life have the natural tools to be pipe layers. Others are happy just to be able to turn the faucet once in a while. Thank god for moleskin, eh ZFB?
Quote from: LittleMurs on August 09, 2013, 12:09:10 PM
Can we call them "tools" for short?
I'm down with it as long as I'm the hammer.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on August 09, 2013, 05:29:46 PM
.
Juan was 12th in the legacy Big East in defensive rebounding rate and 20th in steal percent. He led MU last year in defensive rebounding percent and was first among MU players in steal percentage among players who played more than five minutes a game (Jamal was a bit higher but Juan played 32% of the team minutes). Nothing subjective about it.
Then give Gardner rebounding credit. He was close to leading the team. Also give him credit for creating his own shot. I guess that would make Gardner a 5 tool guy. Still subjective.
I do not believe that Anderson is a good defender. he is too slow of foot.
Quote from: willie warrior on August 09, 2013, 08:03:19 PM
Then give Gardner rebounding credit. He was close to leading the team. Also give him credit for creating his own shot. I guess that would make Gardner a 5 tool guy. Still subjective.
Quote• Davante Gardner: Creates points, good rebounder and passer.
Looks like I did give him credit for rebounding, especially offensively....off his own shots often as Buzz noted. Do you honestly think he can steal the ball, and proficiently shoot threes like a 5 tool guy? If he could defend the paint like Otule, he would start. More so, I said DG is an All Big East and maybe AA, but he is not a five tool guy by any objective eye.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on August 08, 2013, 10:06:10 PM
Incredibly, only six NBA players have ever accomplished this standard in the statistical history of the NBA/ABA, all Hall of Famers (or certain). These are: Julius Erving (1975-76 NY Nets), Dave Cowens (1977-78 Boston Celtics), Scottie Pippen (1994-95 Chicago Bulls), Tracy McGrady (2002-03 Orlando Magic), Kevin Garnett (2002-03 Minnesota Timberwolves) and LeBron James (2008-09 Cleveland Cavaliers).
Tracy McGrady is a
certain Hall of Famer?
8-year span of some very nice scoring stats, but went from stud to dud quickly and didn't exactly lift any team to great heights.
Here's something really incredible: In 15 years, Tracy McGrady never won a single playoff series. Zero, zip, nada. 0-for-career.
Quote from: MU82 on August 09, 2013, 09:59:23 PM
Tracy McGrady is a certain Hall of Famer?
8-year span of some very nice scoring stats, but went from stud to dud quickly and didn't exactly lift any team to great heights.
Here's something really incredible: In 15 years, Tracy McGrady never won a single playoff series. Zero, zip, nada. 0-for-career.
Probably the most uncertain...but only 14 players in NBA history have matched his personal stats. More like the 1969 Cubs players?
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1667177-tracy-mcgrady-a-rock-star-in-china-says-hes-got-hall-of-fame-numbers
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on August 09, 2013, 10:06:53 PM
Probably the most uncertain...but only 14 players in NBA history have matched his personal stats. More like the 1969 Cubs players?
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1667177-tracy-mcgrady-a-rock-star-in-china-says-hes-got-hall-of-fame-numbers
Maybe you're right, but McGrady didn't finish with 20 ppg average, didn't finish with 6 rpg average, didn't finish with 5 apg average, didn't finish with 1 block pg average, didn't shoot 45% from the floor, didn't shoot 75% from the FT line.
Oh, and did I already mention that he somehow managed to avoid winning a single playoff series?
Quote from: MU82 on August 09, 2013, 10:13:49 PM
Maybe you're right, but McGrady didn't finish with 20 ppg average, didn't finish with 6 rpg average, didn't finish with 5 apg average, didn't finish with 1 block pg average, didn't shoot 45% from the floor, didn't shoot 75% from the FT line.
Oh, and did I already mention that he somehow managed to avoid winning a single playoff series?
You think that that was easy? He was on some good teams.
Quote from: MU82 on August 09, 2013, 10:13:49 PM
Maybe you're right, but McGrady didn't finish with 20 ppg average, didn't finish with 6 rpg average, didn't finish with 5 apg average, didn't finish with 1 block pg average, didn't shoot 45% from the floor, didn't shoot 75% from the FT line.
Oh, and did I already mention that he somehow managed to avoid winning a single playoff series?
Are you talking about the Tracy McGrady that was on the bench for the Spurs in this year's NBA Finals? I don't know if he played even a minute, but he was on the active roster.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on August 09, 2013, 09:54:06 PM
Looks like I did give him credit for rebounding, especially offensively....off his own shots often as Buzz noted. Do you honestly think he can steal the ball, and proficiently shoot threes like a 5 tool guy? If he could defend the paint like Otule, he would start. More so, I said DG is an All Big East and maybe AA, but he is not a five tool guy by any objective eye.
Never said he could seal the ball, but lets see:
By you own analysis he creates points, good scorer and passer. I believe that is three. Now add two: rebounding, shot creation, and throw in defense (as you did for Juan Anderson) and he is now a 6 tool man. How about FT's, now he is 7.
Point being: very subjective or to be PC, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
If Tracy McGrady's a Hall of Famer, Glenn Robinson should be too. And while Big Dog was a nice player, he doesn't belong anywhere near the Hall of Fame without a ticket.
Quote from: willie warrior on August 10, 2013, 06:37:01 AM
Never said he could seal the ball, but lets see:
By you own analysis he creates points, good scorer and passer. I believe that is three. Now add two: rebounding, shot creation, and throw in defense (as you did for Juan Anderson) and he is now a 6 tool man. How about FT's, now he is 7.
Point being: very subjective or to be PC, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Willie,
Can you please read the post again. Originally, and I am now quoting this a third time, I said that Gardner "creates points, good rebounder, and passer". You keep quoting me as saying about Gardner that "he creates points, good scorer and passer". Creates points and good scorer are the same thing, and your posts make it hard for me to follow your point as a result because I think we don't disagree on Gardner as best as I can tell: Gardner is a good rebounder (especially offensively).
As to your point about it being subjective, there is an art and a science to this for sure which was the premise of Moneyball...the five tool concept though is a well-known concept based on scout evaluation systems, and what they value. Objectively, and I cite some of them, sources like Basketball Digest back up the concept. So, if you think NBA scouts value Gardner's defense, fine (even though his college coach hasn't). Or if you think he is going to get drafted because he has a 6th tool, free throw shooting, fine (a NBA scout would consider that free throw rate is an element of "point creation", one of the five tools.).
Quote from: brewcity77 on August 10, 2013, 06:44:38 AM
If Tracy McGrady's a Hall of Famer, Glenn Robinson should be too. And while Big Dog was a nice player, he doesn't belong anywhere near the Hall of Fame without a ticket.
I think that McGrady and Robinson fall into the same boat. They had no or little supporting cast. As Scorecasting points out, they didn't have the two other all-stars to go deep. It was the Jordan and the Bulls before Pippen and Rodman. The Lakers and Kobe by himself. The Cavs and Lebron.
Now, one could argue that these two were chuckers as a result, which is true to a degree...that they were the single reason their teams didn't advance as they never gave up the ball. But, McGrady was simply well more statistically rounded than Robinson. He did it all and was a total stat stuffer, so the chucker only argument is not so clear cut.
To be fair to Robinson, he really should have made the Finals. That year the Bucks lost to Philly in the conference championship, they should have won game 6 and as I recall Big Dog didn't go to the line at all despite being constantly hacked. The refs swallowed their whistles because Iverson versus the Lakers was a better matchup for Stern's ratings. And I'm not a Bucks fan at all, but no way the 76ers were a better team.
Would have made for a better Finals, too. Pretty sure Philly got swept out by the Lake Show, the same LA team that Milwaukee swept in the regular season because LA just didn't have enough defensive answers to shut down the Big Three. Had Milwaukee won the title that year, and honestly they may well have been the best team in the league, it'd be interesting how that would change perceptions of Robinson as well as the success of the franchise.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on August 10, 2013, 06:24:42 AM
Are you talking about the Tracy McGrady that was on the bench for the Spurs in this year's NBA Finals? I don't know if he played even a minute, but he was on the active roster.
Hey ... you're right. He did play in 6 playoff games, too. So I take it back. Tracy McGrady was an NBA Finalist! And such an impact player, too!
Hall of Fame, here he comes!!!
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on August 10, 2013, 07:42:34 AM
I think that McGrady and Robinson fall into the same boat. They had no or little supporting cast. As Scorecasting points out, they didn't have the two other all-stars to go deep. It was the Jordan and the Bulls before Pippen and Rodman. The Lakers and Kobe by himself. The Cavs and Lebron.
Now, one could argue that these two were chuckers as a result, which is true to a degree...that they were the single reason their teams didn't advance as they never gave up the ball. But, McGrady was simply well more statistically rounded than Robinson. He did it all and was a total stat stuffer, so the chucker only argument is not so clear cut.
In Houston, McGrady's teammates included a perennial All-Star 7-footer in Yao Ming, still effective veterans in Juwan Howard and Jim Jackson and nice complementary players in Shane Battier and Rafer Alston. Certainly not championship material, but accidentally-stumble-into-one-playoff-series-win material? One would think.
Quote from: MU82 on August 10, 2013, 11:14:27 PM
In Houston, McGrady's teammates included a perennial All-Star 7-footer in Yao Ming, still effective veterans in Juwan Howard and Jim Jackson and nice complementary players in Shane Battier and Rafer Alston. Certainly not championship material, but accidentally-stumble-into-one-playoff-series-win material? One would think.
2004 was the only healthy season they had together and then Yao's injuries occurred from 2005-10 where he missed significant action, including the playoffs. Jimmy Jackson? 12 teams in 14 years Jimmy Jackson? He played one year in Houston. Howard played three years in Houston starting at age 31, the first (2004-05), he missed the playoffs as well with a MCL.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on August 11, 2013, 07:55:45 AM
2004 was the only healthy season they had together and then Yao's injuries occurred from 2005-10 where he missed significant action, including the playoffs. Jimmy Jackson? 12 teams in 14 years Jimmy Jackson? He played one year in Houston. Howard played three years in Houston starting at age 31, the first (2004-05), he missed the playoffs as well with a MCL.
Fact: There are plenty of players in the Hall of Fame who weren't as good as Tracy McGrady. If he gets chosen, I'm not going to boycott basketball. I just don't consider Tracy McGrady to be Hall worthy, but I don't have a vote.
Bumping this, JayBee style. :)
http://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/19052994/tracy-mcgrady-bill-self-rebecca-lobo-headline-2017-basketball-hall-fame-class