http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/jeff-goodman/post?id=82
Insider Article...
Article fails to mention how Matthews had one of his better years as a Senior under Buzz also!
It's difficult to quantify which are the elite programs -- and coaches -- at developing talent. It can be taking a mid-major recruit and turning him into a lottery selection. It can be taking a junior college player no one wanted and helping him become the Big East Player of the Year. It can be taking a so-called "football program" and using a flurry of under-recruited players to take the basketball program to a higher level, or it can just be taking a bunch of guys few wanted to the NCAA tournament each and every year.
There's no simple way to measure the best programs at evaluating and developing talent, but here are a dozen that have stood out lately.
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Marquette Golden Eagles
Look at what Buzz Williams has done since he took over for Tom Crean. It started with Lazar Hayward, continued with Jimmy Butler and included Jae Crowder and Darius Johnson-Odom. None of those guys were highly regarded coming out of high school, or even junior college, and three of them are now earning NBA paychecks. Hayward and Butler, who was ranked as the 82nd overall player in Texas by one recruiting service, were both selected late in the first round while Crowder was taken 34th overall.
Davante Gardner may not wind up playing in the NBA, but look at the progress the rotund big man has made at Marquette -- and he'll be in the equation to play in the league once he graduates. Few have taken nonprototypical players and done more with them -- both individually and with team success -- than Williams.
Quote from: robmufan on July 03, 2013, 11:36:19 AM
Article fails to mention how Matthews had one of his better years as a Senior under Buzz also!
Lots of seniors have their best years....because they are seniors...another year of maturing, last year in the program, leadership qualities, etc. ;D Look at Novak or Crawford or McNeal or Matthews or Diener or Ellis or Butler, etc. Doesn't always happen, but plenty of examples where it does. Would have been interesting to see the additional step Blue could have taken.
So, Buzz can develop players who weren't top 50? Who knew? (hint: everyone but the equalizer)
tons of potential "developees' on this years squad too - keep making the improvements and I think this year's team will be even better than they last three -
Our program level right now is leaps and bounds ahead of anytime in the last 30 years. Stay the course!!!
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 03, 2013, 11:40:41 AM
Lots of seniors have their best years....because their seniors...another year of maturing, last year in the program, leadership qualities, etc. ;D Look at Novak or Crawford or McNeal or Matthews or Diener or Ellis or Butler, etc. Doesn't always happen, but plenty of examples where it does. Would have been interesting to see the additional step Blue could have taken.
I think it is fair to say that Matthews played in a system that better fit his talent his final year under Buzz. That doesn't necessarily mean that he developed him better than TC would have though.
Quote from: tower912 on July 03, 2013, 11:44:29 AM
So, Buzz can develop players who weren't top 50? Who knew? (hint: everyone but the equalizer)
That thread was about HS players.
But since you brought it up, let's look at at Buzz's JUCO successes: Jae Crowder was #1 overall. Buycks & DJO were top 10. Fulce was top 20. Butler was top 50. In fact, I don't think Buzz has recruited a JUCO who wasn't in the top 50. Even TJ Taylor was #26.
Your predicable protest will be "well, they weren't top 100 out of HS." Any my reply is: No they weren't. And Buzz didn't recruit them out of HS or coach them their first year or two either. They had already sorted themselves into the top 50 of maybe 5000 players. Buzz is selecting from the 1% top performers at the JUCO level.
Next, the article cites Davante Gardner as a success. Fine, execpt, to score one success with Davante Gardner, we gave schollies to Liam McMorrow, Brett Roseboro Aaron Durley, and Yous Mbao.
I look at it this way--which is not intended is a slam, even though you'll probably interpret it that way: Buzz's strength is
refining players, not developing them.
He can take a top 50 JUCO and get him to the NBA. He can take a strong solid player after being coached by someone else for the first couple of years out of HS--a Lockett, Hayward or Matthews--and then build on the strengths those players have already demonstrated.
What he hasn't done consistently take HS kids--especially those outside the top 50--and develop them over their first two or three years to the level that Hayward, Matthews or Lockett reached before Buzz got a hold of them.
For comparision, Wes Matthews put up 9 points/4 boards--and that was despite missing 11 games with injuries his freshman year. Juan Anderson missed 3 games to suspension and 1 to injury, and didn't crack 1 ppg/1rpg. Lazar Hayward and Trent lockett each put up 7 points and 3+ rpg their frosh years. Buzz's big success story, Steve Taylor, put up 3 points and 2 rebounds.
And please, back off your knee-jerk tendency to rip on me for pointing this out.
At this point, after watching the types of players Buzz is succeeding with, I'd rather Buzz concentrate on top 50 HS players, top-performing transfers (like Lockett), and JUCO AAs. As opposed to pretending that Buzz has been equally effective with all types of players.
What other Jucos have been in the NBA? (Honest question) I would bet that each of the other years, look at the top 10 jucos, and not all of them are in the NBA.
Equalizer do you really think that comparing Juan and Wes' freshman years is fair? Wes had as many minutes as he could handle at his disposal. Juan was coming into a team that just made the sweet 16 and had Jae, Jamil, Vander and even Jamail ahead of him so he was fighting for playing time rather having it pretty much given to him.
Even if you try to force this argument I'm pretty sure you know that it's not legit, but go ahead and make your case.
Quote from: Abode4life on July 03, 2013, 02:27:34 PM
What other Jucos have been in the NBA? (Honest question) I would bet that each of the other years, look at the top 10 jucos, and not all of them are in the NBA.
I don't know the answer to your question, but comparing top lists of one year to another is always wrought with trouble. A top 10 HS list one year may be significantly better than the top 10 HS list the next year. Same for top 10 draft picks, Jucos, etc, etc. Some years classes are loaded and other years they are weak. No different than comparing teams from one year to the next. There are times when a team finished 5th vs a year they finished 2nd, but the 5th place was a better team and would crush the 2nd place team head to head. Has so much to do with what the rest of the competition is like, how deep the talent pool, is, etc.
Quote from: The Equalizer on July 03, 2013, 02:06:33 PM
That thread was about HS players.
But since you brought it up, let's look at at Buzz's JUCO successes: Jae Crowder was #1 overall. Buycks & DJO were top 10. Fulce was top 20. Butler was top 50. In fact, I don't think Buzz has recruited a JUCO who wasn't in the top 50. Even TJ Taylor was #26.
50 is only a number. Comparing the top 50 high school players with the top 50 JUCOs is embarrassing, even by your standards. It's like comparing the top 50 players in Texas to the top 50 players in Sheboygan. Where does this stuff come from?
Quote from: The Equalizer on July 03, 2013, 02:06:33 PM
That thread was about HS players.
But since you brought it up, let's look at at Buzz's JUCO successes: Jae Crowder was #1 overall. Buycks & DJO were top 10. Fulce was top 20. Butler was top 50. In fact, I don't think Buzz has recruited a JUCO who wasn't in the top 50. Even TJ Taylor was #26.
Your predicable protest will be "well, they weren't top 100 out of HS." Any my reply is: No they weren't. And Buzz didn't recruit them out of HS or coach them their first year or two either. They had already sorted themselves into the top 50 of maybe 5000 players. Buzz is selecting from the 1% top performers at the JUCO level.
Next, the article cites Davante Gardner as a success. Fine, execpt, to score one success with Davante Gardner, we gave schollies to Liam McMorrow, Brett Roseboro Aaron Durley, and Yous Mbao.
I look at it this way--which is not intended is a slam, even though you'll probably interpret it that way: Buzz's strength is refining players, not developing them.
He can take a top 50 JUCO and get him to the NBA. He can take a strong solid player after being coached by someone else for the first couple of years out of HS--a Lockett, Hayward or Matthews--and then build on the strengths those players have already demonstrated.
What he hasn't done consistently take HS kids--especially those outside the top 50--and develop them over their first two or three years to the level that Hayward, Matthews or Lockett reached before Buzz got a hold of them.
For comparision, Wes Matthews put up 9 points/4 boards--and that was despite missing 11 games with injuries his freshman year. Juan Anderson missed 3 games to suspension and 1 to injury, and didn't crack 1 ppg/1rpg. Lazar Hayward and Trent lockett each put up 7 points and 3+ rpg their frosh years. Buzz's big success story, Steve Taylor, put up 3 points and 2 rebounds.
And please, back off your knee-jerk tendency to rip on me for pointing this out.
At this point, after watching the types of players Buzz is succeeding with, I'd rather Buzz concentrate on top 50 HS players, top-performing transfers (like Lockett), and JUCO AAs. As opposed to pretending that Buzz has been equally effective with all types of players.
He did recruit Fulce out of HS. You can't hate on the Brett Roseborro or McMorrow instances as both those were circumstances out of Buzz's control, particularly McMorrow. Next if you adjust Steve Taylor's numbers for when he played significant minutes (say 10+) he averaged 5.6 pts 3.3 reb per game in 14.13 mpg. Not too terrible. So I don't think you can completely hate on Steve being not a success story, I mean have you played sports and tried to be successful in patchy minutes? it takes a decent few to adjust to the flow of the game and get confident.
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/214161631.html
Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 03, 2013, 03:30:47 PM
50 is only a number. Comparing the top 50 high school players with the top 50 JUCOs is embarrassing, even by your standards. It's like comparing the top 50 players in Texas to the top 50 players in Sheboygan. Where does this stuff come from?
Do you disgaree with me that Buzz is doing a lot better with JUCO AAs than HS players outside the top 50?
Quote from: The Equalizer on July 03, 2013, 02:06:33 PM
That thread was about HS players.
But since you brought it up, let's look at at Buzz's JUCO successes: Jae Crowder was #1 overall. Buycks & DJO were top 10. Fulce was top 20. Butler was top 50. In fact, I don't think Buzz has recruited a JUCO who wasn't in the top 50. Even TJ Taylor was #26.
Your predicable protest will be "well, they weren't top 100 out of HS." Any my reply is: No they weren't. And Buzz didn't recruit them out of HS or coach them their first year or two either. They had already sorted themselves into the top 50 of maybe 5000 players. Buzz is selecting from the 1% top performers at the JUCO level.
Next, the article cites Davante Gardner as a success. Fine, execpt, to score one success with Davante Gardner, we gave schollies to Liam McMorrow, Brett Roseboro Aaron Durley, and Yous Mbao.
I look at it this way--which is not intended is a slam, even though you'll probably interpret it that way: Buzz's strength is refining players, not developing them.
He can take a top 50 JUCO and get him to the NBA. He can take a strong solid player after being coached by someone else for the first couple of years out of HS--a Lockett, Hayward or Matthews--and then build on the strengths those players have already demonstrated.
What he hasn't done consistently take HS kids--especially those outside the top 50--and develop them over their first two or three years to the level that Hayward, Matthews or Lockett reached before Buzz got a hold of them.
For comparision, Wes Matthews put up 9 points/4 boards--and that was despite missing 11 games with injuries his freshman year. Juan Anderson missed 3 games to suspension and 1 to injury, and didn't crack 1 ppg/1rpg. Lazar Hayward and Trent lockett each put up 7 points and 3+ rpg their frosh years. Buzz's big success story, Steve Taylor, put up 3 points and 2 rebounds.
And please, back off your knee-jerk tendency to rip on me for pointing this out.
At this point, after watching the types of players Buzz is succeeding with, I'd rather Buzz concentrate on top 50 HS players, top-performing transfers (like Lockett), and JUCO AAs. As opposed to pretending that Buzz has been equally effective with all types of players.
To be fair, by definition, don't most coaches "fail" to develop a player more than they succeed?
I mean, it's not like coach K has 12 college all-americans every year... and he gets amazing HS talent to work with.
There is only 1 ball to go around.
Quote from: cbowe3 on July 03, 2013, 03:01:57 PM
Equalizer do you really think that comparing Juan and Wes' freshman years is fair? Wes had as many minutes as he could handle at his disposal. Juan was coming into a team that just made the sweet 16 and had Jae, Jamil, Vander and even Jamail ahead of him so he was fighting for playing time rather having it pretty much given to him.
Even if you try to force this argument I'm pretty sure you know that it's not legit, but go ahead and make your case.
In 2006 Matthews had to beat out Chapman, Novak, Lott, Fitzgerald, Amoroso and even McNeal.
And none of them played up to the 5 after our starting center was injured for the year 8 games into the season, and his backup was injured and missed 8 games further on.
Yes, I think its fair.
Quote from: The Equalizer on July 03, 2013, 04:08:22 PM
Do you disgaree with me that Buzz is doing a lot better with JUCO AAs than HS players outside the top 50?
Don't disagree, but I'm sure you know that drawing the conclusions you draw based on the sample size you cite is beyond absurd.
Quote from: Abode4life on July 03, 2013, 02:27:34 PM
What other Jucos have been in the NBA? (Honest question) I would bet that each of the other years, look at the top 10 jucos, and not all of them are in the NBA.
Shawn Kemp was a JUCO guy. That's all I got
Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 03, 2013, 04:58:42 PM
Don't disagree, but I'm sure you know that drawing the conclusions you draw based on the sample size you cite is beyond absurd.
Its been five years, and anywhere from 3 to 7 recruits per year. If that's not enough, how many more years, how many more recruits before you admit there might be a pattern?
Hell, people here are ridiculed for suggesting that you actualy need five years before you can draw any conclusions. Now you're saying that drawing conclusions with only five years of data is "beyond absurd"?
Quote from: The Equalizer on July 03, 2013, 02:06:33 PM
That thread was about HS players.
But since you brought it up, let's look at at Buzz's JUCO successes: Jae Crowder was #1 overall. Buycks & DJO were top 10. Fulce was top 20. Butler was top 50. In fact, I don't think Buzz has recruited a JUCO who wasn't in the top 50. Even TJ Taylor was #26.
Your predicable protest will be "well, they weren't top 100 out of HS." Any my reply is: No they weren't. And Buzz didn't recruit them out of HS or coach them their first year or two either. They had already sorted themselves into the top 50 of maybe 5000 players. Buzz is selecting from the 1% top performers at the JUCO level.
Next, the article cites Davante Gardner as a success. Fine, execpt, to score one success with Davante Gardner, we gave schollies to Liam McMorrow, Brett Roseboro Aaron Durley, and Yous Mbao.
I look at it this way--which is not intended is a slam, even though you'll probably interpret it that way: Buzz's strength is refining players, not developing them.
He can take a top 50 JUCO and get him to the NBA. He can take a strong solid player after being coached by someone else for the first couple of years out of HS--a Lockett, Hayward or Matthews--and then build on the strengths those players have already demonstrated.
What he hasn't done consistently take HS kids--especially those outside the top 50--and develop them over their first two or three years to the level that Hayward, Matthews or Lockett reached before Buzz got a hold of them.
For comparision, Wes Matthews put up 9 points/4 boards--and that was despite missing 11 games with injuries his freshman year. Juan Anderson missed 3 games to suspension and 1 to injury, and didn't crack 1 ppg/1rpg. Lazar Hayward and Trent lockett each put up 7 points and 3+ rpg their frosh years. Buzz's big success story, Steve Taylor, put up 3 points and 2 rebounds.
And please, back off your knee-jerk tendency to rip on me for pointing this out.
At this point, after watching the types of players Buzz is succeeding with, I'd rather Buzz concentrate on top 50 HS players, top-performing transfers (like Lockett), and JUCO AAs. As opposed to pretending that Buzz has been equally effective with all types of players.
Are you a politician? If not, you should be. This is pure mental masturbation.
Quote from: The Equalizer on July 03, 2013, 07:52:14 PM
Its been five years, and anywhere from 3 to 7 recruits per year. If that's not enough, how many more years, how many more recruits before you admit there might be a pattern?
Hell, people here are ridiculed for suggesting that you actualy need five years before you can draw any conclusions. Now you're saying that drawing conclusions with only five years of data is "beyond absurd"?
Your sample size was 3 top 50 guys versus 5 50 -100 guys and 4 juco top 50 guys. What's that, 12 total players? You want to draw statistical conclusions based on 12 guys? In Buzz's five years the sample size is 180 games. 12 to 180. Nice try,though.
Quote from: keefe on July 03, 2013, 07:53:09 PM
It is also fraught with trouble...
As well as wrought with trouble....
https://www.google.com/search?q=wrought+with+trouble&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari#sclient=tablet-gws&client=safari&hl=en&q=%22wrought+with+trouble%22&oq=%22wrought+with+trouble%22&gs_l=tablet-gws.3...41387.44991.0.45315.2.2.0.0.0.0.172.273.0j2.2.0.cpsugrpqhmsignedin...0...1.1.19.tablet-gws-psy.0WL_Q1wpoLA&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.&bvm=bv.48705608,d.cGE&fp=18b940e374216100&biw=1024&bih=672
Quote from: The Equalizer on July 03, 2013, 02:06:33 PM
That thread was about HS players.
But since you brought it up, let's look at at Buzz's JUCO successes: Jae Crowder was #1 overall. Buycks & DJO were top 10. Fulce was top 20. Butler was top 50. In fact, I don't think Buzz has recruited a JUCO who wasn't in the top 50. Even TJ Taylor was #26.
Your predicable protest will be "well, they weren't top 100 out of HS." Any my reply is: No they weren't. And Buzz didn't recruit them out of HS or coach them their first year or two either. They had already sorted themselves into the top 50 of maybe 5000 players. Buzz is selecting from the 1% top performers at the JUCO level.
Next, the article cites Davante Gardner as a success. Fine, execpt, to score one success with Davante Gardner, we gave schollies to Liam McMorrow, Brett Roseboro Aaron Durley, and Yous Mbao.
I look at it this way--which is not intended is a slam, even though you'll probably interpret it that way: Buzz's strength is refining players, not developing them.
He can take a top 50 JUCO and get him to the NBA. He can take a strong solid player after being coached by someone else for the first couple of years out of HS--a Lockett, Hayward or Matthews--and then build on the strengths those players have already demonstrated.
What he hasn't done consistently take HS kids--especially those outside the top 50--and develop them over their first two or three years to the level that Hayward, Matthews or Lockett reached before Buzz got a hold of them.
For comparision, Wes Matthews put up 9 points/4 boards--and that was despite missing 11 games with injuries his freshman year. Juan Anderson missed 3 games to suspension and 1 to injury, and didn't crack 1 ppg/1rpg. Lazar Hayward and Trent lockett each put up 7 points and 3+ rpg their frosh years. Buzz's big success story, Steve Taylor, put up 3 points and 2 rebounds.
And please, back off your knee-jerk tendency to rip on me for pointing this out.
At this point, after watching the types of players Buzz is succeeding with, I'd rather Buzz concentrate on top 50 HS players, top-performing transfers (like Lockett), and JUCO AAs. As opposed to pretending that Buzz has been equally effective with all types of players.
Equalizer, how dare you make any criticism about Buzz on this board. The blinders can best be summarized by "In Buzz we trust" Now with Crean, criticize away!
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 03, 2013, 08:29:22 PM
As well as wrought with trouble....
https://www.google.com/search?q=wrought+with+trouble&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari#sclient=tablet-gws&client=safari&hl=en&q=%22wrought+with+trouble%22&oq=%22wrought+with+trouble%22&gs_l=tablet-gws.3...41387.44991.0.45315.2.2.0.0.0.0.172.273.0j2.2.0.cpsugrpqhmsignedin...0...1.1.19.tablet-gws-psy.0WL_Q1wpoLA&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.&bvm=bv.48705608,d.cGE&fp=18b940e374216100&biw=1024&bih=672
Archaic. And wrong.
Quote from: willie warrior on July 03, 2013, 08:37:52 PM
Equalizer, how dare you make any criticism about Buzz on this board. The blinders can best be summarized by "In Buzz we trust" Now with Crean, criticize away!
We are stupid to trust in Buzz. I mean, the man has done nothing -- NOTHING! -- but bring this program down, just as so many predicted the day he replaced The Great Tom Crean.
Fire Buzz. We can do so much better.
Quote from: ElDonBDon on July 03, 2013, 07:28:15 PM
Shawn Kemp was a JUCO guy. That's all I got
a few come to mind...I'm guessing there are many more, but off the top of my head
Dennis Rodman
Ben Wallace
Spencer Haywood
Jamaal Tinsley
Birdman Anderson
Larry Johnson
A few more
Steve Francis
Avery Johnson
John Starks
Mark Eaton
James Ennis
Jamario Moon
Quote from: MU82 on July 03, 2013, 09:15:36 PM
We are stupid to trust in Buzz. I mean, the man has done nothing -- NOTHING! -- but bring this program down, just as so many predicted the day he replaced The Great Tom Crean.
Fire Buzz. We can do so much better.
I don't think anyone has ever said that. Good news is that MU has had many great coaches and many good coaches over the years, so if he does leave MU has the resources and pedigree to hire another one.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 03, 2013, 09:23:28 PM
I don't think anyone has ever said that. Good news is that MU has had many great coaches and many good coaches over the years, so if he does leave MU has the resources and pedigree to hire another one.
One great one and one who's presently on the cusp of greatness. Lots of good ones, though.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 03, 2013, 09:32:00 PM
One great one and one who's presently on the cusp of greatness. Lots of good ones, though.
We will be fine if Buzz leaves. The world will still spin on its axis. We've had some great coaches, very good coaches, good coaches (feel free to define them as you wish). We've had coaches develop NBA Players, get to Final Fours, win league titles, etc.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 03, 2013, 09:32:00 PM
One great one and one who's presently on the cusp of greatness. Lots of good ones, though.
We also had Tom Crean
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 03, 2013, 09:38:47 PM
We will be fine if Buzz leaves. The world will still spin on its axis. We've had some great coaches, very good coaches, good coaches (feel free to define them as you wish). We've had coaches develop NBA Players, get to Final Fours, win league titles, etc.
More than likely, that's the case.
I'd really like to do without the drama, however.
Quote from: keefe on July 03, 2013, 08:54:24 PM
Archaic. And wrong.
Make sure to tell Jane Eyre, the Book of Job, ABC News, Wall Street Journal, NY Times, etc, etc that all used it in that link I provided. ;)
Quote from: AZWarrior on July 03, 2013, 09:42:44 PM
More than likely, that's the case.
I'd really like to do without the drama, however.
Understood, but it's going to happen one day. In the last 35 years we have had ONE coach go more than 6 years. Buzz is entering his 6th year. No one likes the drama, but our history shows a pattern.
Quote from: keefe on July 03, 2013, 09:41:58 PM
We also had Tom Crean
Good thing...I enjoyed Wade, Novak, Diener, Matthews, McNeal, Hayward, James, BigEast, Final Four, etc because of him.
I think saying that the players Buzz recruited that transferred out were Buzz failures is not looking at the whole picture. Would they of failed, if they bought into what Buzz was teaching and committed themselves to working as hard as possible? Mbao certainly had the height and athleticism to make the NBA. We will never know how good he could of been, if he hit the weight room and worked as hard as Buzz wanted him to. some of the failures rest sorely on the players shoulders. Roseboro with his height and shooting ability also did not fullfill his potential and that was not Buzz's fault.