MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: Pakuni on July 01, 2013, 04:54:09 PM
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No comment necessary.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323936404578577752033384718.html
For college-basketball teams, the NBA Draft is a useful way of gauging how the pros evaluate their talent. With that in mind, this year's draft revealed something that might prompt certain fans to book a vacation in an exotic locale just to take a very, very long walk on the beach: Indiana underachieved more than any similarly talented team in NCAA tournament history.
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They didn't mention it being a crapshoot. Then again, they didn't mention it being crap shooting down Crean's leg. So, on balance......
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See I didn't read it as he underachieved at IU, I read it as he totally overachieved at MU in '03. The Miracle in Minneapolis is how I see it.
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No comment necessary.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323936404578577752033384718.html
For college-basketball teams, the NBA Draft is a useful way of gauging how the pros evaluate their talent. With that in mind, this year's draft revealed something that might prompt certain fans to book a vacation in an exotic locale just to take a very, very long walk on the beach: Indiana underachieved more than any similarly talented team in NCAA tournament history.
Huh. Weird.
What they clearly don't get is that they had 2 of the top 4 players in a draft of midgets so it doesn't count. And the NBA Draft doesn't look at talent or how good a player is just potential. I hear Wade's 5th grade son will be going 1 overall next year.
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i4 = champions.
I saw it. Nets came down and everything. After a loss.
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They didn't mention it being a crapshoot. Then again, they didn't mention it being crap shooting down Crean's leg. So, on balance......
Actually, the Wall Street Journal on many occasions has said the best team doesn't always win and it is a crapshoot. Kind of ironic....by the same Ben Cohen. Of course, what he fails to do is compare draft picks, and that's his downfall here. He erroneously is stating that all top picks are the same, which is an assumption that doesn't pass any smell test. Several folks in the comments section call him out for that, just as several folks there seem to be MU fans poking their Tom Crean dolls and urinating on his father's grave. ;)
http://blogs.wsj.com/dailyfix/2010/04/02/the-count-the-best-ncaa-team-doesnt-always-win/
http://stream.wsj.com/story/latest-headlines/SS-2-63399/SS-2-201102/
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Actually, the Wall Street Journal on many occasions has said the best team doesn't always win and it is a crapshoot. Kind of ironic....by the same Ben Cohen. Of course, what he fails to do is compare draft picks, and that's his downfall here. He erroneously is stating that all top picks are the same, which is an assumption that doesn't pass any smell test. Several folks in the comments section call him out for that, just as several folks there seem to be MU fans poking their Tom Crean dolls and urinating on his father's grave. ;)
http://blogs.wsj.com/dailyfix/2010/04/02/the-count-the-best-ncaa-team-doesnt-always-win/
http://stream.wsj.com/story/latest-headlines/SS-2-63399/SS-2-201102/
Chico's .... as you know, or should know, I've never been on the Bash Crean bandwagon. In fact, when I do engage in these silly debates, it's often to defend him.
But there's simply no way to argue that his team this year did anything but massively underachieve. The preseason #1, loaded with two lottery picks, a largely veteran roster plus atop recruiting class should have at least advanced past the Sweet Sixteen. No excuses.
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I guess this also answers the question that SEVERAL other teams with top 5 picks didn't make it past the Sweet 16. Glad he did the work for us...UNC only got to the Sweet 16 with Michael Jordan and Sam Perkins....I hope Dean Smith was fired for that, especially after also losing to Marquette. What a terrible coach. ;)
As I just wrote to Mr. Cohen, "are you really suggesting that a UNC led team with Michael Jordan and Sam Perkins is the same with their top 5 picks at Victor Oladipo and Cody Zeller. Really? Somewhere you fail to look at the weakness of the draft and compare these players to other top 5 picks in those other years. You also don't factor in the incompetence of NBA's Michael Jordan as President of the Bobcats when they took a guy largely slotted as 10th or higher an made him the 4th pick"
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Were they as good? No. Were they as good relative to the rest of the talent in college basketball? Clearly some NBA teams thought so. Chico, I don't disagree that the tourney is a crapshoot. And, in your defense, you defended Crean from Abe Froman just as vociferously back in 2004 and 2005 on the jsonline board. So good on you. Crean did good work at MU. He wasn't above criticism when he was at MU, he isn't above it now. Clearly, a team that had two top 5 picks, relative to all of the rest of college basketball, as well as two players good enough to play for a national team, should have high expectations. When that team fails to meet those expectations, criticism is warranted.
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I guess this also answers the question that SEVERAL other teams with top 5 picks didn't make it past the Sweet 16. Glad he did the work for us...UNC only got to the Sweet 16 with Michael Jordan and Sam Perkins....I hope Dean Smith was fired for that, especially after also losing to Marquette. What a terrible coach. ;)
As I just wrote to Mr. Cohen, "are you really suggesting that a UNC led team with Michael Jordan and Sam Perkins is the same with their top 5 picks at Victor Oladipo and Cody Zeller. Really? Somewhere you fail to look at the weakness of the draft and compare these players to other top 5 picks in those other years. You also don't factor in the incompetence of NBA's Michael Jordan as President of the Bobcats when they took a guy largely slotted as 10th or higher an made him the 4th pick"
If the draft class is weak, doesn't that mean the college basketball landscape was equally as weak? Meaning, irrelevant of the strength of the draft, the team with the highest draft picks should be the best, regardless what year you're looking at.
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Chico's .... as you know, or should know, I've never been on the Bash Crean bandwagon. In fact, when I do engage in these silly debates, it's often to defend him.
But there's simply no way to argue that his team this year did anything but massively underachieve. The preseason #1, loaded with two lottery picks, a largely veteran roster plus atop recruiting class should have at least advanced past the Sweet Sixteen. No excuses.
Did I say they didn't underachieve? Nope. But the biggest underachievers in history....now that is absolutely laughable. A team with Sam Perkins and Michael Jordan only going to the Sweet 16, etc, etc.
Now, I will disagree with you when you say "loaded with two lottery picks" as well as a veteran roster. Not all lottery picks are the same, I think you will acknowledge, especially in a year when the draft was so weak. Are we really saying Oladipo is equal to Jordan and Zeller to Perkins, as just one example? Please.
As for the veteran roster...I guess that depends on what you are using as the definition. One of those veteran guys was hurt in the Sweet 16 game and played with a sling in round three, he's a 3 point shooter and it impacted him a great deal. Zeller was a Sophomore, Oladipo a junior, Watford a senior, Sheehey a junior, their starting PG (most important player in college hoops basketball IMO) a true freshman, Perea a freshman, Abell a Sophomore, Hollowell a Freshman, Elston a Senior. Some veterans, some young kids. They certainly weren't the youngest team, they certainly weren't the most veteran either.
Underachieve, sure, but let's not go overboard here. You want underachievers in history, UCONN with 4 first rounders. Ohio State with three first rounders. UNC with Michael Jordan. Phi Slamma Jamma with Hakeem, Drexler, etc. Marquette in 1978 didn't get out of the first round...talk about MASSIVE underachiever status. I think people were born in the last 15 years to make some of these stupid statements, it's like we have no self awareness at all.
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If the draft class is weak, doesn't that mean the college basketball landscape was equally as weak? Meaning, irrelevant of the strength of the draft, the team with the highest draft picks should be the best, regardless what year you're looking at.
Nice try, but no. The draft class is only based on who has declared for the draft, not emblematic of the entire state of college basketball. As Lenny has told us, sure fire lottery pick from Michigan, McGary didn't come out. McDermott from Creighton didn't come out. Marcus Smart, Glenn Robinson III, etc, etc. Or how many players will have breakout senior years and play themselves into the draft like a Steve Novak, Travis Diener, Vander Blue, etc.
So no, you are trying to create causality that isn't there. The best players didn't all make themselves available in the draft. You're line of thinking would also dictate that because one team had two top 5 players picked (even though one clearly isn't a top 5 but NBA Exec Genius Michael Jordan made him one) that would be better than, say, a team with 4 players picked but none of them as a lottery pick. I'd rather have 4 NBA draftees on my team than 2 lottery picks in a weak draft, that means my team has 4 very good players, not just two....just one of several examples why your logic is flawed.
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Did I say they didn't underachieve? Nope. But the biggest underachievers in history....now that is absolutely laughable.
Yep, bummer end to the season for many and I4 underachieved. A part of it was the PR engine that propped them up so high when they were never that good.
Some knew I4 would be a team ranked #1 for much of the year, but wouldn't finish #1 and wasn't ever a realistic national champion last season (http://latenighthoops.com/201213-bigten-proj-review/).
Besides the two high lottery picks, i4 also had a pair of starting seniors who combined shot better than 46%+ 3FG on the season... in addition to the coaching issues, this was going to be a problem for them.
It's no shock that in the close call (less than a 35% win prob with ~3 mins left) against Temple and in the defeat at the hands of the Orange, Chicos' team shot poorly from 3FG (only 7 makes; 25%).
More of his team's fans are understanding the ceiling that is currently hanging low atop their program. Chicos never will.