Thinking about the new conference made me wonder about who has what. I honestly don't know much about some of the programs joining the league. Where do we rank in terms of backcourt/frontcourt?
Off the top of my head I can think of Providence having a very good frontcourt with Batts and Desrosiers. Dunn and Cotton also form a pretty good backcourt for them. GTown has Starks and Rivera-Smith who form another good tandem. Besides that I don't know what teams have...
What do you all think??
G-Town and Providence are also the 2 easiest to think of for me as well, and imagine if Providence still had Ricky Ledo. Seton Hall with Fuquan Edwin and Aaron Crosby are another good combo. Not sure what any of the 3 new teams (Xavier, Butler, Creighton) have in the backcourt.
Quote from: MUFanatic4Life on May 24, 2013, 12:11:36 PM
G-Town and Providence are also the 2 easiest to think of for me as well, and imagine if Providence still had Ricky Ledo. Seton Hall with Fuquan Edwin and Aaron Crosby are another great combo. Not sure what any of the 3 new teams (Xavier, Butler, Creighton) have in the backcourt.
Well, doesn't matter who you pair with McDermott since he automatically gives them a top front court.
Quote from: MUFanatic4Life on May 24, 2013, 12:11:36 PM
G-Town and Providence are also the 2 easiest to think of for me as well, and imagine if Providence still had Ricky Ledo. Seton Hall with Fuquan Edwin and Aaron Crosby are another good combo. Not sure what any of the 3 new teams (Xavier, Butler, Creighton) have in the backcourt.
If Ledo had stayed at PC they could have been very good this year. It's too bad he made the decision he did.
Too bad for providence. I'm sure Ledo will be just fine.
Here's my take on the backcourts. I tried to get their best returning point and best returning 2 guard. Feel free to edit with transfers incoming or top recruits. I accounted for Cosby's transfer.
Backcourts:
1. Providence- Bryce Cotton/Kris Dunn--25ppg
2. Villanova- Ryan Arcidiacono/Darrun Hilliard--23ppg (they also have Bell)
3. Georgetown- Markel Starks/Devauntes Rivera Smith--22ppg
4. Xavier- Semaj Christon/Dee Davis--23ppg
5. St. Johns- Phil Greene/Jamal Branch--16ppg
6. Creighton- Austin Chatman/Jahenns Manigat--13ppg
7. Marquette- Derrick Wilson/Todd Mayo--6ppg
8. DePaul- Charles McKinney/Brandon Young--22ppg
9. Seton Hall- Tom Mayann/Fuquan Edwin--20ppg
10. Butler- Alex Barlow/Kellen Dunham--12ppg
Quote from: MARQ_13 on May 24, 2013, 12:37:14 PM
Here's my take on the backcourts. I tried to get their best returning point and best returning 2 guard. Feel free to edit with transfers incoming or top recruits. I accounted for Cosby's transfer.
Backcourts:
1. Providence- Bryce Cotton/Kris Dunn--25ppg
2. Villanova- Ryan Arcidiacono/Darrun Hilliard--23ppg (they also have Bell)
3. Georgetown- Markel Starks/Devauntes Rivera Smith--22ppg
4. Xavier- Semaj Christon/Dee Davis--23ppg
5. St. Johns- Phil Greene/Jamal Branch--16ppg
6. Creighton- Austin Chatman/Jahenns Manigat--13ppg
7. Marquette- Derrick Wilson/Todd Mayo--6ppg
8. DePaul- Charles McKinney/Brandon Young--22ppg
9. Seton Hall- Tom Mayann/Fuquan Edwin--20ppg
10. Butler- Alex Barlow/Kellen Dunham--12ppg
LOLZ. That's hilarious. But we know it won't be the case.
Quote from: setyoursightsnorth on May 24, 2013, 12:43:27 PM
LOLZ. That's hilarious. But we know it won't be the case.
What is everyone thinking about Derrick??? I love his defense and I think he is a great floor general. Do we opt for him or a scorer in Duane??
Quote from: Clam Crowder on May 24, 2013, 12:50:15 PM
What is everyone thinking about Derrick??? I love his defense and I think he is a great floor general. Do we opt for him or a scorer in Duane??
I'm sure Derrick will start. He may not play the lion's share of the minutes, but he will be playing a lot. Honestly, I'm fine with that. He takes care of the ball, plays lock down D, and distributes pretty well... But of course his major liability at this point is his inability to score.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on May 24, 2013, 01:11:40 PM
But of course his major liability at this point is his inability to score.
You have no idea what his ability to score is. The same could have been said about Butler after his sophomore year. It was not Wilson's role to shoot.
Well, as much as I like Derrick, I don't think he'll be much of a shooter - he looks quite suspect even on FT's.
Quote from: keefe on May 24, 2013, 01:45:57 PM
You have no idea what his ability to score is. The same could have been said about Butler after his sophomore year. It was not Wilson's role to shoot.
This is just wrong.
Butler had something like the #4 Offensive Rating (131.5) of all returing NCAA D1 players after his Sophomore year. He very clearly demonstrated extremely strong offensive skills, and it showed with him getting nearly 20 mpg despite being on a loaded team.
Derrick Wilson's offensive rating last year was 85.5, which doesn't even put him in the top 1000 in D1.
I think its fair to say that if Wilson had a 131.5 offensive rating, Buzz would have unleashed him.
Quote from: keefe on May 24, 2013, 01:45:57 PM
You have no idea what his ability to score is. The same could have been said about Butler after his sophomore year. It was not Wilson's role to shoot.
It was not his role to shoot because he isn't good at it. Do you really think that if he were good at it that Buzz wouldn't have had him shoot?
Quote from: Terror Skink on May 24, 2013, 02:22:33 PM
It was not his role to shoot because he isn't good at it. Do you really think that if he were good at it that Buzz wouldn't have had him shoot?
I don't think his role will ever be to shoot but he's better at it than you or I. God help Marquette if I had to play ball. These kids are national level athletes. I try to refrain from criticizing on skills I could not possibly hope to have.
nm
Tony Miller was one of the best point guards ever at MU and he was not a scorer. Scoring from point is not needed. Derrick's biggest limitation in my mind is that he is not distributor. However, I am a big fan of Derrick, because he gives everything he has. The same goes for Juan and Thomas.
Quote from: bilsu on May 24, 2013, 02:43:47 PM
Tony Miller was one of the best point guards ever at MU and he was not a scorer. Scoring from point is not needed. Derrick's biggest limitation in my mind is that he is not distributor. However, I am a big fan of Derrick, because he gives everything he has. The same goes for Juan and Thomas.
What I appreciate in Derrick Wilson is that he is an articulate, bright, thoughtful young man who excels both on and off the court. A colleague of mine at T-Mobile is a Hotchkiss Alum and he related to me two years ago that the school is extremely proud of Derrick and thrilled with the opportunity Marquette was giving him. He commented that Marquette was getting a polished person. I am proud to watch Derrick Wilson represent my alma mater.
Buzz Williams and I have a deal. I won't tell him how to coach the Marquette basketball team and he won't tell me how to fly A-10's.
Quote from: keefe on May 24, 2013, 01:45:57 PM
You have no idea what his ability to score is. The same could have been said about Butler after his sophomore year. It was not Wilson's role to shoot.
It's every guard role to score IF THEY CAN. He can't.
Quote from: Sunbelt15 on May 24, 2013, 06:27:54 PM
It's every guard role to score IF THEY CAN. He can't.
Tony Miller, Quinn Buckner, Mark Jackson, Maurice Cheeks, Jose Calderon, Ricky Rubio, Kenny Anderson, Muggsy Bogues, Jay Humphries, Terrell Brandon, David Wesley, Kenny Smith, Pooh Richardson, Mike Conley, Derek Harper...
None of these guys were scorers but they were great Points.
Quote from: keefe on May 24, 2013, 07:48:49 PM
Tony Miller, Quinn Buckner, Mark Jackson, Maurice Cheeks, Jose Calderon, Ricky Rubio, Kenny Anderson, Muggsy Bogues, Jay Humphries, Terrell Brandon, David Wesley, Kenny Smith, Pooh Richardson, Mike Conley, Derek Harper...
None of these guys were scorers but they were great Points.
Yeah, but not one of them shot 27% from the field, 14% from three and 45% on free throws. Maybe year 3 for Derrick will bring those numbers up abit.
Quote from: nyg on May 24, 2013, 09:38:24 PM
Yeah, but not one of them shot 27% from the field, 14% from three and 45% on free throws. Maybe year 3 for Derrick will bring those numbers up abit.
I have no idea whether his shooting will improve but then neither does anyone else. Fact is he will likely be the 4th or 5th option, much like Cadougan, Jimmy Boylan, Mandy Johnson. As long as he excels at the other aspects he will be doing his job. He is a great student athlete and we should be proud to have him represent our alma mater.
Quote from: bilsu on May 24, 2013, 02:43:47 PM
Tony Miller was one of the best point guards ever at MU and he was not a scorer. Scoring from point is not needed. Derrick's biggest limitation in my mind is that he is not distributor. However, I am a big fan of Derrick, because he gives everything he has. The same goes for Juan and Thomas.
There is absolutely no comparison to Tony Miller and Wilson, and using him as an example is just not right. Everybody can have their opinion. Miller is MU's all time assist leader--by far--and will likely never be matched. He also was a great ball handler and good defender. Wilson is at best marginal. He is likely a good kid, plays hard and good D, and so far has made few mistakes, but to say that because Miller was not a scorer, that will be OK to play Wilson does not make much sense.
By the way, it is fun to look at some of the PG's MU has had in its history:
Butch Lee, Travis Diener, Cordell Henry, Lloyd Walton, Mandy Johnson, Sam Worthen, Dick Nixon(way back), Marcus Washington, Dean Meminger (actually played either G), Tony Miller, Rosey (a 2G in a PG body), Tony Smith, etc. I am sure I have forgotten a couple in there, but there have been some definite studs. And who can ever forget Artie Green, who could sky like he was a Center?
Probably my two favorites would be Mandy Johnson (a steal machine), and Worthen.
Quote from: willie warrior on May 25, 2013, 07:41:41 AM
By the way, it is fun to look at some of the PG's MU has had in its history:
Butch Lee, Travis Diener, Cordell Henry, Lloyd Walton, Mandy Johnson, Sam Worthen, Dick Nixon(way back), Marcus Washington, Dean Meminger (actually played either G), Tony Miller, Rosey (a 2G in a PG body), Tony Smith, etc. I am sure I have forgotten a couple in there, but there have been some definite studs. And who can ever forget Artie Green, who could sky like he was a Center?
Probably my two favorites would be Mandy Johnson (a steal machine), and Worthen.
Doc Rivers, Jim Boylan, Allie McGuire
Quote from: The Equalizer on May 24, 2013, 02:05:08 PM
This is just wrong.
Butler had something like the #4 Offensive Rating (131.5) of all returing NCAA D1 players after his Sophomore year. He very clearly demonstrated extremely strong offensive skills, and it showed with him getting nearly 20 mpg despite being on a loaded team.
Derrick Wilson's offensive rating last year was 85.5, which doesn't even put him in the top 1000 in D1.
I think its fair to say that if Wilson had a 131.5 offensive rating, Buzz would have unleashed him.
131.5 rating or not he averaged 5.6 pts per game, mostly on free throws (44% of his points), most of his other points were on put-backs from offensive rebounds (yielding a high rating). His points came from the line and on put-backs, because as noted he was not expected to shoot or create for himself it wasn't his role (0% 3's).
Compare that to Juan Anderson, 3 pts per game. Difference between Juan and JFB, JFB scored 1.5 pts more per game from the line, the bulk of the difference in scoring and making JFB have a higher efficiency rating.
Quote from: forgetful on May 25, 2013, 11:16:11 AM
131.5 rating or not he averaged 5.6 pts per game, mostly on free throws (44% of his points), most of his other points were on put-backs from offensive rebounds (yielding a high rating). His points came from the line and on put-backs, because as noted he was not expected to shoot or create for himself it wasn't his role (0% 3's).
Compare that to Juan Anderson, 3 pts per game. Difference between Juan and JFB, JFB scored 1.5 pts more per game from the line, the bulk of the difference in scoring and making JFB have a higher efficiency rating.
Wait a minute! Are you saying that statistics can be misleading??
Quote from: willie warrior on May 25, 2013, 07:41:41 AM
There is absolutely no comparison to Tony Miller and Wilson, and using him as an example is just not right. Everybody can have their opinion. Miller is MU's all time assist leader--by far--and will likely never be matched. He also was a great ball handler and good defender. Wilson is at best marginal. He is likely a good kid, plays hard and good D, and so far has made few mistakes, but to say that because Miller was not a scorer, that will be OK to play Wilson does not make much sense.
By the way, it is fun to look at some of the PG's MU has had in its history:
Butch Lee, Travis Diener, Cordell Henry, Lloyd Walton, Mandy Johnson, Sam Worthen, Dick Nixon(way back), Marcus Washington, Dean Meminger (actually played either G), Tony Miller, Rosey (a 2G in a PG body), Tony Smith, etc. I am sure I have forgotten a couple in there, but there have been some definite studs. And who can ever forget Artie Green, who could sky like he was a Center?
Probably my two favorites would be Mandy Johnson (a steal machine), and Worthen.
Did Butch Lee play point guard? If my memory is correct, he played two years with Walton at the point and two years with Boylan at the point. Besides that I was not saying Derrick was anywhere near Miller. What I was saying is it is more important that the point guard be a distributor than it is to be a scorer and that Derrik is not a distributor. That is also the problem I see with Duane, who is a scorer first and not a distributor. Duane is closer to Dwight Buyckes than Tony Miller. Our only hope for a true distributor at point is Dawson and I have no idea what his game is like.
Quote from: bilsu on May 25, 2013, 12:18:01 PM
Did Butch Lee play point guard? If my memory is correct, he played two years with Walton at the point and two years with Boylan at the point.
You could be right--it was a long time ago. Lee definitely did much of the ball handling and had a PG body.
Quote from: willie warrior on May 25, 2013, 12:23:17 PM
You could be right--it was a long time ago. Lee definitely did much of the ball handling and had a PG body.
Lee never played PG. And he shouldn't have. Walton and Boylan were far better at the one while Lee was far better at the two.
Duane will spell Derrick for Offense much like DG did for Otule
Quote from: keefe on May 25, 2013, 03:51:11 PM
Lee never played PG. And he shouldn't have. Walton and Boylan were far better at the one while Lee was far better at the two.
Hmmmm....From the Golden Eagle Athletics site: Lee was "the starting point guard on the 1977 NCAA title team."
http://www.gomarquette.com/genrel/081108aab.html
Butch Lee was not the PG in 1977. The Golden Eagle web site is wrong.
I'm sorry, but the cards says Moops.
Quote from: willie warrior on May 25, 2013, 05:02:46 PM
Hmmmm....From the Golden Eagle Athletics site: Lee was "the starting point guard on the 1977 NCAA title team."
http://www.gomarquette.com/genrel/081108aab.html
Hmmmm...don't believe everything that you read, Willie - Jim Boylan was the starting point guard on the 1977 NCAA title team. Butch played the 2 guard.
Quote from: willie warrior on May 25, 2013, 05:02:46 PM
Hmmmm....From the Golden Eagle Athletics site: Lee was "the starting point guard on the 1977 NCAA title team."
http://www.gomarquette.com/genrel/081108aab.html
(http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000ES8c45WBcYA/s/900/900/M1K1977CCN.jpg)
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 25, 2013, 05:41:36 PM
Hmmmm...don't believe everything that you read, Willie - Jim Boylan was the starting point guard on the 1977 NCAA title team. Butch played the 2 guard.
Never said he was not---said that Lee did much of the ball handling.
By the way, if I follow your advice about not believing everything I read, maybe I should not believe what you posted. Ah, life is full of disinformation. Nobody should believe anything they read, because who really knows? For sure not the MU website article.
Derrick has not proven that he can break down a defense, has not proven that he can distribute the ball to a teammate in scoring position, has not proven that he can lead an offense, has not proven that he has great court vision when handling the ball and has not proven that he can make his teammates better.
I didn't even mention shooting or scoring, which would seem his real offensive weakness.
As many have said, players do improve when given the chance, so I'm very curious to see what Derrick will do when he is handed the keys to the MU ignition.
I disagree with the premise that a Final Four-caliber team doesn't need a PG with scoring ability. He doesn't have to score even 10 a game, but he does have to be a threat to occasionally take it to the rim himself, to set up his teammates and to hit the occasional wide-open jumper. Not to mention make FTs, especially in crunch time.
Junior provided the absolute minimum level of skills a true contender needs. As much as I liked and defended Junior, that's setting the bar pretty low. We can and should do better. Hopefully, Duane Wilson will. Heck, maybe even Derrick Wilson will when given 25 mins a game.
It is by far the most important question that must be answered about next year's team. By far.
Quote from: MU82 on May 26, 2013, 06:13:02 PM
Derrick has not proven that he can break down a defense, has not proven that he can distribute the ball to a teammate in scoring position, has not proven that he can lead an offense, has not proven that he has great court vision when handling the ball and has not proven that he can make his teammates better.
I didn't even mention shooting or scoring, which would seem his real offensive weakness.
As many have said, players do improve when given the chance, so I'm very curious to see what Derrick will do when he is handed the keys to the MU ignition.
I disagree with the premise that a Final Four-caliber team doesn't need a PG with scoring ability. He doesn't have to score even 10 a game, but he does have to be a threat to occasionally take it to the rim himself, to set up his teammates and to hit the occasional wide-open jumper. Not to mention make FTs, especially in crunch time.
Junior provided the absolute minimum level of skills a true contender needs. As much as I liked and defended Junior, that's setting the bar pretty low. We can and should do better. Hopefully, Duane Wilson will. Heck, maybe even Derrick Wilson will when given 25 mins a game.
It is by far the most important question that must be answered about next year's team. By far.
It's only one game, but against UW when he started.....
He will flourish. Book it.
Quote from: willie warrior on May 25, 2013, 07:18:32 PM
By the way, if I follow your advice about not believing everything I read, maybe I should not believe what you posted. Ah, life is full of disinformation. Nobody should believe anything they read, because who really knows? For sure not the MU website article.
Much of what is written here (by me and others) is opinion. Feel free to agree or disagree. Sometimes, however, we deal in facts, and the fact is that Butch was never the starting point guard at Marquette - in 1977 or any other year.
Quote from: real chili 83 on May 26, 2013, 09:14:11 PM
It's only one game, but against UW when he started.....
He will flourish. Book it.
I hope he flourishes a little better than he did in his "career game" against Wisconsin, when he had 0 points, 0 assists and 0 steals in 20 minutes.
He also had 0 turnovers and did a nice job defending Jordan Taylor, and deserves kudos for both of those things, but I'm pretty sure we all agree that Marquette needs a little more (translation:
a lot more) from its starting PG to contend for anything that matters.
Again, we'll see if Derrick is the PG who can provide that.
Quote from: MU82 on May 26, 2013, 09:29:38 PM
I hope he flourishes a little better than he did in his "career game" against Wisconsin, when he had 0 points, 0 assists and 0 steals in 20 minutes.
He also had 0 turnovers and did a nice job defending Jordan Taylor, and deserves kudos for both of those things, but I'm pretty sure we all agree that Marquette needs a little more (translation: a lot more) from its starting PG to contend for anything that matters.
Again, we'll see if Derrick is the PG who can provide that.
Can't argue your stats....duh :)
I was able to get some time with Derrick this spring. He's got his head on straight. He understands his role as a leader and team captain.
On top of that, if it's good enough for Brent, it's good enough....
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 26, 2013, 09:22:49 PM
Much of what is written here (by me and others) is opinion. Feel free to agree or disagree. Sometimes, however, we deal in facts, and the fact is that Butch was never the starting point guard at Marquette - in 1977 or any other year.
Lenny,
Maybe our recall is off? Or, we ingested so many chemicals back then we have no idea what transpired? It was the '70's after all...
IMHO
Backcourts:
1. Providence (Cotton/Dunn)
2. Villanova (Arcidiacono/Hilliard)
3. Xavier (Davis/Christon)
4. Georgetown (Starks/Smith-Rivera)
5. St. John's (Green IV/Harrison)
6. Creighton (Chatman/Manigat)
7. DePaul (McKinney/Young)
8. Seton Hall (Maayan/Edwin)
9. Marquette (Wilsons/Johnson)
10. Butler (Barlow/Dunham)
Frontcourts:
1. Georgetown (Trawick/Whittington/Lubick)
2. Marquette (J Wilson/McKay/Oxtule)
3. St. John's (Pointer/Sampson/Obekpa)
4. Creighton (Wragge/McDermott/Artino)
5. Villanova (Bell/Pinkston/Ochefu)
6. Providence (Fortune/Henton/Batts)
7. Seton Hall (Oliver/Auda/Teague)
8. Butler (Jones/Marshall/Woods)
9. Xavier (Martin/Philmore/Stainbrook)
10. Depaul (Crockett/Melvin/Rychbosch?)
Quote from: forgetful on May 25, 2013, 11:16:11 AM
131.5 rating or not he averaged 5.6 pts per game, mostly on free throws (44% of his points), most of his other points were on put-backs from offensive rebounds (yielding a high rating). His points came from the line and on put-backs, because as noted he was not expected to shoot or create for himself it wasn't his role (0% 3's).
Compare that to Juan Anderson, 3 pts per game. Difference between Juan and JFB, JFB scored 1.5 pts more per game from the line, the bulk of the difference in scoring and making JFB have a higher efficiency rating.
All I can say is go back and look at the play-by-plays and per-game status. Most games Butler didn't have more than 2 offensive boards, fewer than half resulted in putback attempts, and not every shot went in. He had plenty of scoring from the field and on FTs that didn't happen after a put-back.
I think you are taking one game--the last game of the regular season against Syracuse--out of context and projecting Butler's performance to the entire season. Yes, Butler had a ton of putbacks in that one game--but that wasn't representative of his season. Take a look at the play-by-plays for games like the BET game against Villanova or the NCAA game against Missouri to name two high profile games.
Butlers soph 131.5 rating was legit and indicative of what we could expect down the road. Meanwhile, Derrick Wilson's 88.5 ORtg is a reflecton of his 27.3 FG% (12.5% on treys), and 45.0 FT%.
Sorry, but the statment I took offense with--that Wilson is just as much of an unknown as Butler--just doesn't fit with the facts.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 26, 2013, 09:22:49 PM
Much of what is written here (by me and others) is opinion. Feel free to agree or disagree. Sometimes, however, we deal in facts, and the fact is that Butch was never the starting point guard at Marquette - in 1977 or any other year.
I was in the stands for every home game in 1976-77 - I suspect Lenny's and Goose were too - and I saw every away game that was on TV. Butch Lee was not the point guard, nor did he do "the majority" of the ball handling, regardless of what MU's sports information director was told in 2008.
Quote from: keefe on May 26, 2013, 09:39:38 PM
Lenny,
Maybe our recall is off? Or, we ingested so many chemicals back then we have no idea what transpired? It was the '70's after all...
Your recall is fine. Boylan was brought in as a transfer so he could take over the point guard position from Walton after Lloyd graduated. Boylan's redshirt transfer year was Walton's senior year.
DeWill will get the benefit of the doubt as an upperclassman. He will start the majority of the season (imo).
Quote from: LittleMurs on June 01, 2013, 01:10:40 PM
Your recall is fine. Boylan was brought in as a transfer so he could take over the point guard position from Walton after Lloyd graduated. Boylan's redshirt transfer year was Walton's senior year.
Murray
I was just funnin' the old hippie. My recall is crystal clear with regard to Alfred Lee. He played the 2 while Lucky Lloyd and Jimmy Boylan handled the 1. Now, Butch did play point with a gal named Gail.