Vander Blue, G, Jr. Marquette
Blue had a breakout season as a junior, averaging 14.8 PPG. He is a terrific athlete who can guard multiple positions and exudes the sort of toughness we've come to expect from Marquette players. He's coming off a strong NCAA tournament run that helped carry Marquette to the Elite Eight. However, he still lacks a consistent perimeter jumper and is considered undersized for a 2-guard. Most likely, he's a second-round pick. But some scouts project him as a big point guard, so there's a chance he sneaks into the first round.
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I know Buzz was surprised / shocked but this isn't John Cliff turning pro. Ford has some decent contacts.
Ford has been relatively high on Blue for quite some time. Still not buying Buzz was that surprised by the news.
They talk about this being a weak draft. What we generally do not know is how many foreign players are going to be drafted. At some point the general managers rather draft a young foreign player knowing he will not come to the league right away than take a more known US player with known limitations. I still think DJO was a better player than Vander and I think he was drafted 57th.
He won't be an NBA PG, but hell whatever gets him in the 1st round. Ain't my job.
Quote from: Goose on May 01, 2013, 03:30:46 PM
Ford has been relatively high on Blue for quite some time. Still not buying Buzz was that surprised by the news.
Why? He's said it several times and some have hinted he was quite upset about it. What makes you believe he wasn't surprised?
Chico's
I said on here months ago that I heard Vander was going pro this year regardless of his performance. Person that told me this I trust a great deal and he stated that was common knowledge within the program. Love Buzz big time, but he is sly guy. Expectations were probably at very high level for next year and this helps put the chip on the shoulder back into play. He might have known Blue was going but like everyone on here believe it is mistake. I stood steady on Blue leaving for months yet I was hoping he would hang around.
Quote from: bilsu on May 01, 2013, 03:35:30 PM
They talk about this being a weak draft. What we generally do not know is how many foreign players are going to be drafted. At some point the general managers rather draft a young foreign player knowing he will not come to the league right away than take a more known US player with known limitations. I still think DJO was a better player than Vander and I think he was drafted 57th.
DJO was a better college player, but Vander is a better pro prospect. Bigger, better defender, better ball handler. DJO is a better shooter, but Vander's shooting has really improved and the extra couple inches make it easier for Van to get his shot off.
By the same token, Scottie Reynolds was a better college player than either DJO or Van, but less of a pro prospect than either of them.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 01, 2013, 03:39:01 PM
Why? He's said it several times and some have hinted he was quite upset about it. What makes you believe he wasn't surprised?
He was surprised he couldn't convince Vander to stay. This is actually the first time Buzz couldn't convince someone to stay.
Quote from: bilsu on May 01, 2013, 03:35:30 PM
They talk about this being a weak draft. What we generally do not know is how many foreign players are going to be drafted. At some point the general managers rather draft a young foreign player knowing he will not come to the league right away than take a more known US player with known limitations. I still think DJO was a better player than Vander and I think he was drafted 57th.
Yeah, the second round gets crazy with the amount of foreign draftees.
Quote from: brewcity77 on May 01, 2013, 03:50:32 PM
DJO was a better college player, but Vander is a better pro prospect. Bigger, better defender, better ball handler. DJO is a better shooter, but Vander's shooting has really improved and the extra couple inches make it easier for Van to get his shot off.
By the same token, Scottie Reynolds was a better college player than either DJO or Van, but less of a pro prospect than either of them.
Frankly, outside of shooting, I think Vander did everything better than DJO. Better ball handler, passer, defender, etc.
Quote from: The Lens on May 01, 2013, 03:26:22 PM
I know Buzz was surprised / shocked but this isn't John Cliff turning pro. Ford has some decent contacts.
the comments from j. johnson made me think buzz wasn't too surprised.
Quote from: Terror Skink on May 01, 2013, 04:57:11 PM
Frankly, outside of shooting, I think Vander did everything better than DJO. Better ball handler, passer, defender, etc.
Totally agree.
Quote from: Goose on May 01, 2013, 03:49:34 PM
Chico's
I said on here months ago that I heard Vander was going pro this year regardless of his performance. Person that told me this I trust a great deal and he stated that was common knowledge within the program. Love Buzz big time, but he is sly guy. Expectations were probably at very high level for next year and this helps put the chip on the shoulder back into play. He might have known Blue was going but like everyone on here believe it is mistake. I stood steady on Blue leaving for months yet I was hoping he would hang around.
DraftExpress president said similar things to me, but also felt that the consensus was that he wasn't hearing what he wanted to hear and pretty much everyone thought he was coming back. He wanted to go (hell, he wanted to go Freshman year) but teams were saying he wasn't a first round pick. That's how I interpreted Goodman's comments, King's comments, Buzz's, etc. All it takes is for one agent to say one GM thinks you might be a first rounder and off he goes.
Oh well.
Quote from: Terror Skink on May 01, 2013, 04:57:11 PM
Frankly, outside of shooting, I think Vander did everything better than DJO. Better ball handler, passer, defender, etc.
Debatable on handle. DJO was a better driver, finisher, better mid-range and all around offensive talent. I'll give you defender, rebounding and passer, but its not as clear cut as you're making it.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 01, 2013, 03:39:01 PM
some have hinted he was quite upset about it.
I don't recall "some hinting". I do recall one guy claiming he knew a guy who overheard something while weightlifting.
Quote from: Aughnanure on May 01, 2013, 08:04:14 PM
Debatable on handle. DJO was a better driver, finisher, better mid-range and all around offensive talent. I'll give you defender, rebounding and passer, but its not as clear cut as you're making it.
I'll give you finisher (at times) but DJO's mid range game was nowhere near the caliber of Vander.
Quote from: MUEagle1090 on May 01, 2013, 10:19:09 PM
I'll give you finisher (at times) but DJO's mid range game was nowhere near the caliber of Vander.
What are you talking about? You seem to have a very short and selective memory about Vander. Do you have no memory of the many times DJO drove, stopped, and made a fade-away jumper to halt a run?
DJO scored much more points, shot the ball more, had a better effective FG%, True shooting %, player efficiency rating, 3 point %, and in all but 1 year a better FG% (by .07%). In Vander's best year, his efficiency doesn't come close to DJO's worst.
Vander's ceiling is higher than DJO's was.
But DJO was a refined product who could contribute immediately to an NBA team.
Vander can - and will - but if he continues to work on his game, he'll be a very good NBA player. Not starter quality but solid bench player.
If Vander can distribute the ball well with minimum turnovers, he may jump to the first round in a weak draft. We all know he's good at penetrating and finishing at the rim.
With all the guys like marcus smart, appling from MSU, McDermott, etc returning to college I think it was probably a good idea to go pro for Vander. (Although I hate to admit it cuz I would have loved to have him for one more year) This draft class is beyond weak and that fact alone could really play into Vander's hands. If he has good workouts over the next couple weeks he may find himself in the first round.
Quote from: muarmy81 on May 02, 2013, 07:25:39 AM
With all the guys like marcus smart, appling from MSU, McDermott, etc returning to college I think it was probably a good idea to go pro for Vander. (Although I hate to admit it cuz I would have loved to have him for one more year) This draft class is beyond weak and that fact alone could really play into Vander's hands. If he has good workouts over the next couple weeks he may find himself in the first round.
Most of the time, pre-draft workouts don't matter all that much. But I agree they probably will be crucial for Vander, who needs to show NBA types that he can handle, pass and think like a point guard -- or at least somebody who one day could be a point guard.
As for DJO being a better finisher, I guess that's true over the course of their careers. But I do seem to remember Vander finishing twice against St. John's and once against Davidson in fairly important situations.
Quote from: Aughnanure on May 01, 2013, 08:04:14 PM
Debatable on handle. DJO was a better driver, finisher, better mid-range and all around offensive talent. I'll give you defender, rebounding and passer, but its not as clear cut as you're making it.
DJO had a terrible handle. Dribbled way too high. He was a better finisher, but Vander made leaps and bounds in that area over the past year.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on May 01, 2013, 11:03:58 PM
Vander's ceiling is higher than DJO's was.
But DJO was a refined product who could contribute immediately to an NBA team.
??? No NBA team wants him.
One thing I like about Vander's decision is I think there was a high risk of his 2FG shooting not being as strong as it was in 2012-13. His jump shot was falling at a very good rate and whether or not that's "real", you have the 2012-13 as fact... a decline in 2013-14 would have potentially brought back doubters.
Combined with this draft class vs. how next year's projects, I'm not so sure it was some crazy decision on Van's part. Really wish he was at MU for another year, but it really may have been a good 'business decision'.
Have stated numerous times that Blue's 3 pt shooting % was affected by the number of bad shots he had to take as shot clock expired. He took what seemed like at least one forced shot from 3 pt land every game. He did make some of those, Badger game comes to mind, but if he missed 15 shots that should not or would not have been taken if affects % a great deal. Far from a sharp shooter and needs improvement in that area, but the shooting % was affected by bad half court offense.
Quote from: Goose on May 01, 2013, 03:49:34 PM
Chico's
I said on here months ago that I heard Vander was going pro this year regardless of his performance. Person that told me this I trust a great deal and he stated that was common knowledge within the program. Love Buzz big time, but he is sly guy. Expectations were probably at very high level for next year and this helps put the chip on the shoulder back into play. He might have known Blue was going but like everyone on here believe it is mistake. I stood steady on Blue leaving for months yet I was hoping he would hang around.
Given what we heard about Todd Mayo's non-relationship with Buzz last year, I don't completely buy in to the fact that Buzz knew about Vander's plans.
Perhaps he heard that Vander was thinking about leaving early, but the surprise came from the fact that he actually did it--in the interviews it comes across as news to him.
Been thinking about this a lot lately. Vander will go in the 2nd round. I hated to see him leave, but this was the right choice for him.
Quote from: Terror Skink on May 02, 2013, 07:40:38 AM
DJO had a terrible handle. Dribbled way too high. He was a better finisher, but Vander made leaps and bounds in that area over the past year.
Never been impressed w/ Vander's either.
Quote from: Victor McCormick on May 02, 2013, 08:57:49 AM
Been thinking about this a lot lately. Vander will go in the 2nd round. I hated to see him leave, but this was the right choice for him.
If he would have gone in 1st round next year with guaranteed money, different answer. We'll never know.
I don't think htis will work out well for VB, but if he was mentally checked out of school, it is for the best.
Quote from: Aughnanure on May 01, 2013, 10:42:07 PM
What are you talking about? You seem to have a very short and selective memory about Vander. Do you have no memory of the many times DJO drove, stopped, and made a fade-away jumper to halt a run?
DJO scored much more points, shot the ball more, had a better effective FG%, True shooting %, player efficiency rating, 3 point %, and in all but 1 year a better FG% (by .07%). In Vander's best year, his efficiency doesn't come close to DJO's worst.
To clarify, I meant that Vander's mid range game from his JR year was better than DJO's. If we are comparing careers then yes, DJO's was significantly better. DJO was also a much better three point shooter.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 02, 2013, 09:15:34 AM
If he would have gone in 1st round next year with guaranteed money, different answer. We'll never know.
Agreed, but what if he fell off or had an injury next year, and went undrafted after next year? He is striking while the iron is hot and you can't fault him for that.
Quote from: The Equalizer on May 02, 2013, 08:55:39 AM
Given what we heard about Todd Mayo's non-relationship with Buzz last year, I don't completely buy in to the fact that Buzz knew about Vander's plans.
Perhaps he heard that Vander was thinking about leaving early, but the surprise came from the fact that he actually did it--in the interviews it comes across as news to him.
That's hard for me to believe. Everyone knew that Vander's only goal was to go pro as quickly as possible. If I knew that, the coaching staff knew it.
Quote from: Victor McCormick on May 02, 2013, 10:49:50 AM
Agreed, but what if he fell off or had an injury next year, and went undrafted after next year? He is striking while the iron is hot and you can't fault him for that.
I think the larger point is that the iron is not as hot as he and some here believe it is.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 02, 2013, 09:15:34 AM
If he would have gone in 1st round next year with guaranteed money, different answer. We'll never know.
You're right we'll never know. But the odds seem better that he will get drafted this year.
Quote from: Victor McCormick on May 02, 2013, 10:49:50 AM
Agreed, but what if he fell off or had an injury next year, and went undrafted after next year? He is striking while the iron is hot and you can't fault him for that.
I can fault him because I want my National Championship. Kind of like how Bud Kilmer wants his district title in Varsity Blues
Quote from: Victor McCormick on May 02, 2013, 10:49:50 AM
Agreed, but what if he fell off or had an injury next year, and went undrafted after next year? He is striking while the iron is hot and you can't fault him for that.
Yup. Though I would argue he's striking while HE thinks the iron is hot, whether the market place does (the teams), remains to be seen. Always risk and reward with decisions in life, this is just at an elevated scale than 99% of the public has to go through. Hope it works out for him.
Quote from: MUEagle1090 on May 02, 2013, 10:32:43 AM
To clarify, I meant that Vander's mid range game from his JR year was better than DJO's. If we are comparing careers then yes, DJO's was significantly better. DJO was also a much better three point shooter.
But it wasn't. Ever.
It's tough to compare DJO and VB for NBA potential, simply because DJO is 6'1 maybe and VB is a long 6'4. DJO definitely had and has more skills, but the height could make the difference for Vander.
Quote from: Aughnanure on May 04, 2013, 10:19:01 AM
But it wasn't. Ever.
Vander Blue's 2 pt. FG% last year was 14 points higher than DJO's his last season.
Vander's mid range game was clearly better than DJO's last year.
Quote from: jtbh6b1 on May 04, 2013, 07:09:07 PM
It's tough to compare DJO and VB for NBA potential, simply because DJO is 6'1 maybe and VB is a long 6'4. DJO definitely had and has more skills, but the height could make the difference for Vander.
Skills? DJO could do one thing better than Vander - long range shooting. That's about it.
Quote from: Terror Skink on May 04, 2013, 07:17:49 PM
Skills? DJO could do one thing better than Vander - long range shooting. That's about it.
Yup.
I'm surprised how many people here think DJO was a better pro prospect than Vander. I think it's Vander and I don't think it's that close.
Quote from: MUSF on May 04, 2013, 08:16:15 PM
Yup.
I'm surprised how many people here think DJO was a better pro prospect than Vander. I think it's Vander and I don't think it's that close.
Half this board thinks the only thing that makes a player worthwhile is scoring.
Quote from: Terror Skink on May 04, 2013, 08:21:37 PM
Half this board thinks the only thing that makes a player worthwhile is scoring.
Yeah, I love it when we start playing the stat comparison game to figure out who the better pro prospect is.
Quote from: Terror Skink on May 04, 2013, 07:16:50 PM
Vander Blue's 2 pt. FG% last year was 14 points higher than DJO's his last season.
Vander's mid range game was clearly better than DJO's last year.
Where are you getting those numbers? Statsheet has FG and 3FG, so I computed 2FG%.
Vander's junior year vs. DJO's Senior year 2fg%:
Vander: 52.8% .. DJO 49.3%.
Both numbers are great, but separated by 3.5, not 14 points.
Quote from: Terror Skink on May 02, 2013, 07:41:27 AM
??? No NBA team wants him.
I know he's in Russia, but those were my sentiments before he was drafted.
I still think he'll return to the League someday.
Like I posted earlier, DJO's ceiling seemed limited (compared to Vander's). NBA teams want to see some ceiling in their investment.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on May 05, 2013, 09:35:45 AM
Where are you getting those numbers? Statsheet has FG and 3FG, so I computed 2FG%.
Vander's junior year vs. DJO's Senior year 2fg%:
Vander: 52.8% .. DJO 49.3%.
Both numbers are great, but separated by 3.5, not 14 points.
You are correct. I looked at the wrong number for DJO.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on May 05, 2013, 09:41:01 AM
I know he's in Russia, but those were my sentiments before he was drafted.
I still think he'll return to the League someday.
Like I posted earlier, DJO's ceiling seemed limited (compared to Vander's). NBA teams want to see some ceiling in their investment.
Unless DJO can significantly improve his outside shot, I just don't see it.
I think Buycks makes the NBA before DJO does.
The more I think about this and analyze it, I think Vander winds up a first round pick. Might not be totally apples/apples, but I think teams will look at Vander and see Iman Shumpert (ironically). I think the more success Shumpert has in the playoffs, helps Vander's stock rise (even though they are mutually exclusive).
Mea Culpa, I didn't see Sultan's thread on the Vander/Shumpert comparison until now, my bad.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on May 05, 2013, 09:35:45 AM
Where are you getting those numbers? Statsheet has FG and 3FG, so I computed 2FG%.
Vander's junior year vs. DJO's Senior year 2fg%:
Vander: 52.8% .. DJO 49.3%.
Both numbers are great, but separated by 3.5, not 14 points.
Thank you. I was trying to find that. For a person shooting 70 more times, thats nothing.
Again, I'm not even trying to argue DJO is/was a better pro-prospect- but that calling Blue a significantly better mid-range shooter is ridiculous considering he scored considerably less and was much less efficient his whole career.
Vander is not even close to where DJO was his last year at Marquette. Athletically, Vander isnt as quick and cannot shoot nearly as well. Look at their form, thats all you need to know about whos a better jumpshooter
Quote from: joe pop on May 07, 2013, 04:32:20 PM
Vander is not even close to where DJO was his last year at Marquette. Athletically, Vander isnt as quick and cannot shoot nearly as well. Look at their form, thats all you need to know about whos a better jumpshooter
Not sure about the quickness and athleticism. Vander has the better shot at staying in the NBA, but that doesn't mean its a good shot.
Quote from: joe pop on May 07, 2013, 04:32:20 PM
Vander is not even close to where DJO was his last year at Marquette. Athletically, Vander isnt as quick and cannot shoot nearly as well. Look at their form, thats all you need to know about whos a better jumpshooter
Vander is much quicker than DJO. And DJO only had a better last year if you only judge a player on his ability to make jump shots.
Quote from: Terror Skink on May 08, 2013, 08:00:43 AM
Vander is much quicker than DJO. And DJO only had a better last year if you only judge a player on his ability to make jump shots.
Vander is quicker, but not much quicker. DJO is stronger and a better leaper. DJO his senior year was a slow starter. He often did not score much, if at all, in the frist 7 minutes of the game. He also did not do well against bigger stronger guards in college, which is all he was going to face in NBA. Blue will have the same problem, because his game depends on him being more athletic than his opponents and in most cases he will not be more athletic than his opponents and will be slightly undersized.
Quote from: bilsu on May 08, 2013, 08:34:47 AM
Vander is quicker, but not much quicker. DJO is stronger and a better leaper. DJO his senior year was a slow starter. He often did not score much, if at all, in the frist 7 minutes of the game. He also did not do well against bigger stronger guards in college, which is all he was going to face in NBA. Blue will have the same problem, because his game depends on him being more athletic than his opponents and in most cases he will not be more athletic than his opponents and will be slightly undersized.
This is what a lot of college fans don't factor in when looking ahead to the draft. We see "our guys" without recognizing that there are lots of darn good other guys out there. Yes, even in a "down year" for the draft.
I remember Dee Brown's draft year. Many Illinois fans thought he would make it as a pro because he was so quick. They failed to realize that the vast majority of NBA guards are super quick. Heck, lots of NBA power forwards are as quick as good college guards. So a guy Brown's size needed to have more than that going for him. He didn't.
Vander's athletic ability carried him at Marquette. He was able to beat Davidson because he was quicker than the guy guarding him on that drive. In the NBA, he will be defended by guys every bit as athletic as he is -- many nights, by guys even more athletic than he is. And he often will be at a height/bulk disadvantage.
Not saying he can't make it. Just saying he needs to demonstrate to NBA types that he can shoot from the perimeter, including NBA 3-point range, and can play at least a little PG. If he can do that at his workouts, he might be able to sneak into the first round. If he can't, he's at best a late second-rounder.
The college three is a midrange jumper in the NBA, lots of centers/power forwards shoot that shot at a high percentage. Vander's was a 30% three point shooter. One season of a good 2pt% does not mean Vander is a good shooter.